Re: [Ql-Users] Raspberry Pi the £15 PC
Morning Marcel, Hmm, where to begin... The very name of WINE itself stands for Wine Is Not an Emulator. It does not do ANY CPU emulation. So, running QPC is downright out. Ah, ok, sorry. I sit corrected - thanks. (B*gg*r!) Actually there is a WINE port for ARM, but it only works with Windows apps that have been cross-compiled for the ARM architecture (QPC, being much assembler code, cannot be cross compiled). Double b*gg*r! :-( More specifically, SuperBasic is just a language - albeit a good one. So I suppose someone could write a SuperBasic interpreter/compiler in, say C, to be packaged up and/or compiled from source on any Linux. While this is true, most power of the language comes from its extensions and these would all have to be rewritten, too. Possibly. In the case of the extensions and such like that we have for the QL/QPC/whatever. But the base language is excellent by itself. If there ever is a SBasic for Raspeberry Pi (or RasPi as it seems to be known) then it's obvious that TK2 etc won't be available. But the developer(s) wouldn't just be doing the base language as is - there would be up to date stuff, window handling and so forth. It would develop as a new language/development system in its own right, I think so anyway, rather than a straight port from QDOSMSQ to ARM. Cheers, Norm. -- Norman Dunbar Dunbar IT Consultants Ltd Registered address: Thorpe House 61 Richardshaw Lane Pudsey West Yorkshire United Kingdom LS28 7EL Company Number: 05132767 ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Raspberry Pi the £15 PC
I've grown up since then ;-) Ah yes, growing up. The joys of having to find work, stay in it, earning enough to live. No wonder they say that childhood days are the best in your life. Nostalgia, it's not what it used to be. -- Norman Dunbar Dunbar IT Consultants Ltd Registered address: Thorpe House 61 Richardshaw Lane Pudsey West Yorkshire United Kingdom LS28 7EL Company Number: 05132767 ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Raspberry Pi the £15 PC
We're all taxing our grey matter to work out what the Raspberrypi won't do, or stretching it to the limit, but we shouldn't forget that the developers are firmly on track to provide a cheap means of enabling the new generation to develop programming skills from the fundamentals. However they do express an interest in what folk envisage trying to do with it. But we should avoid implied criticism of the facilities unless it directly relates to the objectives. Let us concentrate on getting a QL+ built round it and forget hungry Windows. My QL with XCHANGE from romdisq is brilliant and that is what I would like in more compact up to date form. Bryan H Whilst I agree with most of what you say, Bryan, the likeliest scenario for using it as a QL is that it will have some form of native OS with which a QL emulator would have to be run. Knowing what it can and can't do will most likely influence what sort of QL system we can make of it and plan ahead for, to some degree. If, as seems likely, it only comes with Linux (Ubuntu) then the likeliest scenario is that either an existing or modified uQLx would be the QL initially at least. I didn't mean to criticise it, in fact I'd hoped I was being enthusiastic (apart from the comment about clutter of cables). The only reason I mentioned Windoze was that IF it was found to be capable of running any version of Windows, it opened up even more possibilities as regards using it is a QL emulator etc. The developers have expressed an interest in getting some form of programming language on board and BBC BASIC and QL SuperBASIC have been mooted as possibilities, but also as one of the developers said: We'll be supporting at least C, Perl and Python. Programming's not for everyone though; the device makes a pretty good general-purpose computer too. They've made it clear they want to find a way to implement BBC BASIC if they can - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_BASIC - it says there's even a version of that for the Spectrum, not to mention just about every platform except QL, although Wikipedia says a GPL clone of BBC BASIC named Brandy written in portable C is also available - now it would be nice to have BBC BASIC for the QL if a C programmer fancies the task. What I'm getting at is there's little chance of Raspberry Pi running natively as a QL unless it's powerful enough to run a 68000 emulation. Would be happy to be proved wrong of course! Now what did Marcel once say about being unable to resist a challenge... :-) Dilwyn Jones ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Raspberry Pi the £15 PC
On 04/08/11 12:43, Dilwyn Jones wrote: Whilst I agree with most of what you say, Bryan, the likeliest scenario for using it as a QL is that it will have some form of native OS with which a QL emulator would have to be run.. Based on the actual price of the device, around $25, then I am having extreme difficulty seeing how they can even begin to think about putting a commercial OS on there. Many devices nowadays, for example, most ebook readers, have embedded Linux of some sort simply because (a) it works and (b) it's free and so keeps the prices down. I don't see Microsoft giving away free versions of Windows to help keep the price of anything down - well, not unless you are a big government agency or similar, but then you get screwed on support and software costs. I suspect, but don't know, that it will come with some form of Linux onboard. Cheers, Norm. -- Norman Dunbar Dunbar IT Consultants Ltd Registered address: Thorpe House 61 Richardshaw Lane Pudsey West Yorkshire United Kingdom LS28 7EL Company Number: 05132767 ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Raspberry Pi the £15 PC
Cluttering of cables sounds bad however based on the size it is likely to turn out then the whole thing including a USB hub could be fitted inside a QL BB, a way of converting the existing keyboard matrix to a USB may prove difficult, however alternative USB keyboards could be used instead, but then it wouldn't look like a QL :( My second point (or question) for what it's worth is that other than machine code routines, peek and poke for fixed memory (screen or systems variables) does SuperBASIC need 680?? emulation? Regards, Lee Privett Editor ---QUANTA--- The QL Users And Tinkerers Association http://www.QUANTA.org.uk -Original Message- From: ql-users-boun...@lists.q-v-d.com [mailto:ql-users-boun...@lists.q-v-d.com] On Behalf Of Norman Dunbar Sent: 04 August 2011 13:50 To: ql-users@lists.q-v-d.com Subject: Re: [Ql-Users] Raspberry Pi the £15 PC On 04/08/11 12:43, Dilwyn Jones wrote: Whilst I agree with most of what you say, Bryan, the likeliest scenario for using it as a QL is that it will have some form of native OS with which a QL emulator would have to be run.. Based on the actual price of the device, around $25, then I am having extreme difficulty seeing how they can even begin to think about putting a commercial OS on there. Many devices nowadays, for example, most ebook readers, have embedded Linux of some sort simply because (a) it works and (b) it's free and so keeps the prices down. I don't see Microsoft giving away free versions of Windows to help keep the price of anything down - well, not unless you are a big government agency or similar, but then you get screwed on support and software costs. I suspect, but don't know, that it will come with some form of Linux onboard. Cheers, Norm. -- Norman Dunbar Dunbar IT Consultants Ltd Registered address: Thorpe House 61 Richardshaw Lane Pudsey West Yorkshire United Kingdom LS28 7EL Company Number: 05132767 ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Raspberry Pi the £15 PC
Hi Lee, On 04/08/11 16:37, Lee Privett wrote: ... My second point (or question) for what it's worth is that other than machine code routines, peek and poke for fixed memory (screen or systems variables) does SuperBASIC need 680?? emulation? Well, I suspect that QPC will run under WINE on any flavour of Linux, and not necessarily one that has an Intel Processor of x86 fame beneath it. So QPC will probably run fine under WINE under Ubuntu on the Pi. More specifically, SuperBasic is just a language - albeit a good one. So I suppose someone could write a SuperBasic interpreter/compiler in, say C, to be packaged up and/or compiled from source on any Linux. If this person wasw to use something like wxWidgets or QT, then the code would be cross platform and SuperBasic on Windows would be a possibility. The obvious problem would be Machine code - unless the SuperBasic system had a built in 68000 emulator, then assembly will be a non-starter. None (I presume) of the system variables and so on would be the same either. The *language* would be there, just not the platform itself. I think! Cheers, Norm. -- Norman Dunbar Dunbar IT Consultants Ltd Registered address: Thorpe House 61 Richardshaw Lane Pudsey West Yorkshire United Kingdom LS28 7EL Company Number: 05132767 ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Raspberry Pi the £15 PC
Norman Dunbar wrote: Well, I suspect that QPC will run under WINE on any flavour of Linux, and not necessarily one that has an Intel Processor of x86 fame beneath it. Hmm, where to begin... The very name of WINE itself stands for Wine Is Not an Emulator. It does not do ANY CPU emulation. So, running QPC is downright out. Actually there is a WINE port for ARM, but it only works with Windows apps that have been cross-compiled for the ARM architecture (QPC, being much assembler code, cannot be cross compiled). Additionally there is a way to employ the QEMU x86 emulator, but I somehow doubt running an unsupported QEMU solution on such a slow and limited platform would really work or be anything near usable. More specifically, SuperBasic is just a language - albeit a good one. So I suppose someone could write a SuperBasic interpreter/compiler in, say C, to be packaged up and/or compiled from source on any Linux. While this is true, most power of the language comes from its extensions and these would all have to be rewritten, too. Cheers, Marcel ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
Re: [Ql-Users] Raspberry Pi the £15 PC
Dilwyn Jones wrote: Now what did Marcel once say about being unable to resist a challenge... :-) I've grown up since then ;-) Marcel ___ QL-Users Mailing List http://www.q-v-d.demon.co.uk/smsqe.htm
