Re: Purpose of this list
James <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >I've received a couple of messages both on this list, and personal email >that consistently suggest that I read the manual before posting here. People usually do that when one asks a question that is clearly answered by the documentation. >Of course I realize that reading the manual, going through the steps of >Life With Qmail or viewing the FAQs is the best first step.. but once one >takes every step mentioned, and things STILL don't work, it's very hard to >maintain calm as people *keep* suggesting that it's a good idea to read >the manual. Are you reading these documents carefully and understanding them, or are you just skimming or not "getting it"? >... For >one example.. I have no idea as to why, when I sent a test message to >[EMAIL PROTECTED] during one hour it was rejected multiple times, then >trying again 4 hours later it goes through just fine.. when I changed >*nothing* at all on my server. If you truly did change nothing--and I don't doubt you--then either someone or something else did, or something not on your server changed (such as DNS). qmail is not the slightest bit buggy, and unpredictable behavior is not characteristic. >And one other soapbox spew.. When I receive a question such as "Are you >sure you are talking to [your ip address here]?" and I answer "How would I >know?".. this doesn't mean I haven't tested ping, or whois, or >whereis etc.. because I have, it means that if there is some *other* way >of knowing, please tell me now. If you mean "If there is some *other* way of knowing, please tell me now", you'll be doing everyone a favor if you write it that way, and not as "How would I know?". We deal with people whose experiences and abilities are all over the spectrum, from complete newbie to kernel hacker, and we don't know where you fall. -Dave
Re: Purpose of this list
Ralf Günthner wrote:
>
> My 2 cents:
>
> >> Dave Sill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 17.05.2000 16.25 Uhr >>>
>
> >not as "How would I know?". We deal with people whose experiences and
> >abilities are all over the spectrum, from complete newbie to kernel
> >hacker, and we don't know where you fall.
>
> Based on past experience: Most of the readers of this list seem to lean
> toward the developer's side and when someone who's "only" a qmail-admin
> as a side-effect of his main job, like myself, (we use qmail purely as a
> relay system in our DMZ, because it's secure) I often get short, cryptic
> answers from a programmer's perspective.
>
> The vast majority of my knowledge pertains to IT security, but I wouldn't
> expect anyone asking me for advice to be familiar with the ins-and-outs
> of the TCP/IP suite. I explain a new term before throwing it at the
> questioner. The same attitude would make this list friendlier at times
> ("put it in a .qmail file") Of course I don't encourage not reading any
> FAQs or man pages but shooting all questions to the list instead.
I think the reason repeated rtfm-style questions are so frustrating
(for me, anyway) is that qmail itself has some of the best "newbie"
documentation I think I've ever seen - it's all of the "do this,
then this, then this" variety - which was extremely friendly to me
the first time I installed qmail. Whether it was DJB, or whoever
wrote it went to great pains to aim it straight at the newbie. I
didn't even need Dave's excellent LWQ the first time I installed
it - and that reflects far more on the person that wrote the
INSTALL.* files than my mediocre prowess as an admin.
Eric
RE: Purpose of this list
> -Original Message- > From: Eric Cox [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2000 10:14 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Purpose of this list > > I think the reason repeated rtfm-style questions are so frustrating > (for me, anyway) is that qmail itself has some of the best "newbie" > documentation I think I've ever seen - it's all of the "do this, > then this, then this" variety - which was extremely friendly to me > the first time I installed qmail. Whether it was DJB, or whoever > wrote it went to great pains to aim it straight at the newbie. I > didn't even need Dave's excellent LWQ the first time I installed > it - and that reflects far more on the person that wrote the > INSTALL.* files than my mediocre prowess as an admin. > I'd just like to say that the qmail documentation is brilliant. Because of that, I myself have come upon the problem of knowing more about qmail than *nix administration; setting up qmail has been my first task as a freebsd admin. Thus the qmail docs break down where they assume knowledge of *nix stuff--which isn't really a fault of qmail. However, qmail does suffer from the same issue as BSD traditionally has, which is that everyone involved is too damned smart, so they write in terse, dense and frighteningly useful language and get annoyed when people have difficulty parsing the information. The qmail.org page is also a bit confusing. It would be nice if the main answers pages were organized together: Life With qmail, the qmail HOWTO, and the qmail man pages. They're all listed under User-Contributed Documentation, but they're mixed along with a whole bunch of other more specialized links. There's just a little bit TOO much info on the qmail.org page; it would be nice if it were separated out a bit. I only just looked at the "big picture" link, which is immensely useful. I didn't click on it, because I generally avoid links in the middle of a paragraph if I'm looking for particular information, especially a paragraph with a lot of links. If there were a quick meta-manual, which listed and described the most-important manual/documentation links, that would be extremely useful. If it exists, then it should be one of the #1 links on the qmail.org page. The other section that doesn't exist (or does it? It's not easy to find) is "Qmail for users" which would talk about qmail just from the perspective of the *nix user, with the userland commands, without mixing it all in with the admin info.
Re: Purpose of this list
Brad Johnson wrote: > The other section that doesn't exist (or does it? It's not easy to find) is > "Qmail for users" which would talk about qmail just from the perspective of > the *nix user, with the userland commands, without mixing it all in with the > admin info. there's man dot-qmail -- David Nicol 816.235.1187 [EMAIL PROTECTED] drawn to the speed and performance
RE: Purpose of this list
Brad Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >However, qmail does suffer from the same issue as BSD traditionally >has, which is that everyone involved is too damned smart, so they >write in terse, dense and frighteningly useful language and get >annoyed when people have difficulty parsing the information. I worked hard to make "Life with qmail" newbie-friendly, and I try hard to be newbie-friendly on this list. If you have specific constructive suggestions on how I can improve either, please let me know. >The other section that doesn't exist (or does it? It's not easy to >find) is "Qmail for users" which would talk about qmail just from the >perspective of the *nix user, with the userland commands, without >mixing it all in with the admin info. See: http://Web.InfoAve.Net/~dsill/lwq.html#usage -Dave
Re: Purpose of this list
Dave, You do not need to improve anything! LWQ and your deamenor on this list is outstanding. I was an extreme qmail newbie. I had know idea how to do anything!! After reading all of the necissary information, I was still confused. Then I found LWQ(Thanks to this list). Just by using LWQ I had a test server running in 2 weeks. After my test server was complete, I made the transition to a production server. I accomplished this in 2 hours. When I did have problems, usually related to being a newbie, You and 99% of the people on this list gave me the neccissary information or at least a nudge in the right direction. If this indivdual does not like the "quality of support" that is being received from the qmail community then the only thing that I can suggest is that he switch to sendmail and buy a book! Steve P. - Original Message - From: "Dave Sill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2000 8:39 AM Subject: RE: Purpose of this list > Brad Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >However, qmail does suffer from the same issue as BSD traditionally > >has, which is that everyone involved is too damned smart, so they > >write in terse, dense and frighteningly useful language and get > >annoyed when people have difficulty parsing the information. > > I worked hard to make "Life with qmail" newbie-friendly, and I try > hard to be newbie-friendly on this list. If you have specific > constructive suggestions on how I can improve either, please let me > know. > > >The other section that doesn't exist (or does it? It's not easy to > >find) is "Qmail for users" which would talk about qmail just from the > >perspective of the *nix user, with the userland commands, without > >mixing it all in with the admin info. > > See: > > http://Web.InfoAve.Net/~dsill/lwq.html#usage > > -Dave >
Re: Purpose of this list
on 5/18/00 7:11 AM, Steve Peace had the thought: > You do not need to improve anything! LWQ and your deamenor on this list is > outstanding. Trying to not sound like a gratuitous 'me too' I have to say he is right. Unfortunately I started my qmail career before LWQ was released but still if you take these (and maybe other) common steps before posting: Read INSTALL -> Read FAW -> Search list archives you will have a much better experience on this list. I've set up qmail on at least 8 machines now with a variety on configurations and I stay on this list because I learn something new/cool every day. Occasionally I can spot an easy problem and help someone out. Isn't that is what it's supposed to be all about? I guess it's that or asking when the book will be out ;-) Pat -- Freestyle Interactive | http://www.freestyleinteractive.com | 415.778.0610
RE: Purpose of this list
I would just like to affirm the people on this list. I am a newbie to Linux and qmail, and have learned a bunch from this list. Yes, some of the terms are cryptic, but with a little research, I can usually find what they mean. When I asked for help, I was responded to very politely and the response got me pointed in the right direction to fix the problem. I used Life With qmail as my guide, and it was great. My hat is off to this list! Jon Saunders SECPA -Original Message- From: Dave Sill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2000 6:39 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Purpose of this list Brad Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >However, qmail does suffer from the same issue as BSD traditionally >has, which is that everyone involved is too damned smart, so they >write in terse, dense and frighteningly useful language and get >annoyed when people have difficulty parsing the information. I worked hard to make "Life with qmail" newbie-friendly, and I try hard to be newbie-friendly on this list. If you have specific constructive suggestions on how I can improve either, please let me know. >The other section that doesn't exist (or does it? It's not easy to >find) is "Qmail for users" which would talk about qmail just from the >perspective of the *nix user, with the userland commands, without >mixing it all in with the admin info. See: http://Web.InfoAve.Net/~dsill/lwq.html#usage -Dave
RE: Purpose of this list
> From: Dave Sill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Brad Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > >However, qmail does suffer from the same issue as BSD traditionally > >has, which is that everyone involved is too damned smart, so they > >write in terse, dense and frighteningly useful language and get > >annoyed when people have difficulty parsing the information. > > I worked hard to make "Life with qmail" newbie-friendly, and I try > hard to be newbie-friendly on this list. If you have specific > constructive suggestions on how I can improve either, please let me > know. > I purposely didn't want the above to sound like a criticism; that's why it was contained within tags. It's meant to praise you with faint damnation: "too damned smart" and "frighteningly useful" is not meant to be an effective insult. However, I don't think it's unreasonable to draw an analogy between qmail and BSD; even though qmail came after sendmail and BSD before Linux, the language used by qmailers to describe sendmail is heavily reminiscent of the language used by BSDers to describe Linux; also, qmail shares many basic goals with BSD (security,clean code,superiority). I think that qmail is more like Linux in that qmail seems destined to replace sendmail over time as the dominant MTA. All IMHO. I think I was trying to say that reasonable people can be confused by qmail, just because it's a very powerful and complex program, not because it's poorly documented. There's no way to make building a mile-long bridge simple and easy; there's no way to make building a robust, secure and flexible MTA simple and easy. That said, I'd say that qmail and the qmail community comes as close as possible to that goal. In other words, qmail is pretty damn newbie friendly, even though it's an impossible task. Suggestions: the qmail.org page should highlight "Life with qmail" and the other generally useful documents. It's buried near the bottom of the User-Contributed Documentation page, below broken links to Michael Samuel and a bunch of specialty documentations. I also sent a bunch of hopefully useful suggestions/tweaks for "Life" to Dave.
Re: Purpose of this list
Hi James,
Sad to say, this list's subscribership is just like many of the technical
lists I participate in. There are many who maintain a level of empathy,
exhibit patience and offer resolute advice... BUT ... there a some who
are... uu not exhibiting those qualities.
That kind of reception creates a restricted maillist where people who have
legitimate needs hesitate to post publicly for fear of a public putdown.
So lurkers are born, waiting in the wings, hoping that someone else will
post their same problem and elicit a solution... or they spend valuable
time searching through archives. Kind of sad, imo.
Not that this will make it all better, but typically members the former
group cringed when they see posts from the latter group that berate a
newbie. I, for one, am glad you posted your comments and would encourage
those who have needs to do exactly what you've done, research a solution,
try it, ask for help, ignore the "non-helpful" folks.
Guess we all have to chalk the nasty posts up to one or more of the following:
1) Having a generally bad day
2) Being constipated
3) Probable immaturity
4) Financial problems
5) Dog died
6) Other
:)
HTH,
Nikki
At 06:55 AM 05/13/2000 , you wrote:
>
>Of course I realize that reading the manual, going through the steps of
>Life With Qmail or viewing the FAQs is the best first step.. but once one
>takes every step mentioned, and things STILL don't work, it's very hard to
>maintain calm as people *keep* suggesting that it's a good idea to read
>the manual.
>
>Just as those who have been around forever get upset with hearing the same
>questions over and over, new users who follow proper steps and STILL have
>problems also get tired of hearing about "reading the #$$% manual."
SunTrix Com Management
Nikki Cook
("The Buck Stops Here")
-o-
SunTrix Com Internet Services
Daytona Beach, Florida
PPP and Shell Accounts (904) 258-5434
WEB Design [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.suntrix.com
WEBBnet IRC Network
irc.webbnet.org | irc.us.webbnet.org
~
Re: Purpose of this list
On Sat, May 13, 2000 at 03:55:31AM -0700, James wrote:
> I've received a couple of messages both on this list, and personal email
> that consistently suggest that I read the manual before posting here.
>
> Of course I realize that reading the manual, going through the steps of
> Life With Qmail or viewing the FAQs is the best first step.. but once one
> takes every step mentioned, and things STILL don't work, it's very hard to
> maintain calm as people *keep* suggesting that it's a good idea to read
> the manual.
I don't know if you did this, but it MIGHT be a good idea to actually STATE
that you've read Dave Sill's LWQ and the FAQ's and the appropriate man page
before posting
I don't know if you've noticed, but there are *a lot* of questions posted to
this list which could have *easily* been resolved by reading the appropriate
material.
The people on this list are not *mind readers*. If you don't tell them you've
read all the material they, logically, assume that you haven't.
Some people find it easier to ask ("stupid") questions on the list then to
read the rather plentyful documentation.
Another recent example was that someone changed his domain name in a post
on this list.
When he finally told the domain name the problem was *immediately* solved...
> And one other soapbox spew.. When I receive a question such as "Are you
> sure you are talking to [your ip address here]?" and I answer "How would I
> know?".. this doesn't mean I haven't tested ping, or whois, or
> whereis etc.. because I have, it means that if there is some *other* way
> of knowing, please tell me now.
You're right, but if you don't *STATE* that you've done ping, whois, nslookup
etc. again nobody *knows* you did this ;-)
> Whatever I learn on this list I will do what I can to give back to those
> who have questions, or run into the same problems I have had here. And
> even though I try to be thorough in my question posts, I guess I need to
> be more thorough still with every step I have tried.. because I only ask
> questions here AFTER I have tried every step I can find in either a FAQ or
> HOWTO.
This may be a natural path/assumption for you, but not for others on this list.
> James
My 2 cents worth,
Steffan
--
http://therookie.dyndns.org
Re: Purpose of this list
I It is always worth checking the Archives of this mailing list on www.qmail.org.I bet that 99% of questions in this list are already answered there. The other thing is don't let them get to you! Cheers On Sat, 13 May 2000, James wrote: > I've received a couple of messages both on this list, and personal email > that consistently suggest that I read the manual before posting here. > > Of course I realize that reading the manual, going through the steps of > Life With Qmail or viewing the FAQs is the best first step.. but once one > takes every step mentioned, and things STILL don't work, it's very hard to > maintain calm as people *keep* suggesting that it's a good idea to read > the manual. > > Just as those who have been around forever get upset with hearing the same > questions over and over, new users who follow proper steps and STILL have > problems also get tired of hearing about "reading the #$$% manual." For > one example.. I have no idea as to why, when I sent a test message to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] during one hour it was rejected multiple times, then > trying again 4 hours later it goes through just fine.. when I changed > *nothing* at all on my server. > > And one other soapbox spew.. When I receive a question such as "Are you > sure you are talking to [your ip address here]?" and I answer "How would I > know?".. this doesn't mean I haven't tested ping, or whois, or > whereis etc.. because I have, it means that if there is some *other* way > of knowing, please tell me now. > > Many of you have been quite helpful, and I appreciate every answer in > reply because I know it takes time, your valuable time, to try and figure > out a problem.. but it also takes time and determination to decide to > weather out the problems for days in order to make one program work right. > Both sides should be commended for effort. > > Whatever I learn on this list I will do what I can to give back to those > who have questions, or run into the same problems I have had here. And > even though I try to be thorough in my question posts, I guess I need to > be more thorough still with every step I have tried.. because I only ask > questions here AFTER I have tried every step I can find in either a FAQ or > HOWTO. > > Again, thanks for all the help and please, some of you, try not to be so > hard on those of us asking seemingly trivial questions when often (or at > least in my case) hours have already been spent trying to figure out a > problem before coming here to ask for help. > > James > >
Re: Re: Purpose of this list
My 2 cents:
>> Dave Sill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 17.05.2000 16.25 Uhr >>>
>not as "How would I know?". We deal with people whose experiences and
>abilities are all over the spectrum, from complete newbie to kernel
>hacker, and we don't know where you fall.
Based on past experience: Most of the readers of this list seem to lean toward the
developer's side and when someone who's "only" a qmail-admin as a side-effect of his
main job, like myself, (we use qmail purely as a relay system in our DMZ, because it's
secure) I often get short, cryptic answers from a programmer's perspective.
The vast majority of my knowledge pertains to IT security, but I wouldn't expect
anyone asking me for advice to be familiar with the ins-and-outs of the TCP/IP suite.
I explain a new term before throwing it at the questioner. The same attitude would
make this list friendlier at times ("put it in a .qmail file") Of course I don't
encourage not reading any FAQs or man pages but shooting all questions to the list
instead.
Your own project, "Live with qmail" has done lots to improve the situation for
newbies, though.
Cheers
Ralf
Antw: Re: Purpose of this list
Eric, I have to agree with you: When I installed qmail for the 1st time I had a basic system up and running in less than a day, using nothing but the docs that came with the source But it gets more difficult if you want to use qmail in a professional manner like running it supervised, analyze the logs etc. Then again this is true for every complex system, in computing or elsewhere. But at least Brad saw the point I wanted to make, I guess. A suggestion for those writing a qmail guide: There must be numerous sites like us putting it to good use just as a relay because of its security. I'd happily contribute the necessary steps to accomplish this relatively simple setup. Cheers Ralf
