Re: [qubes-users] Qubes-users forum - Please, moderate this guy

[Duncan Guthrie]

Hi all,

Personally, I think we don't need to have an active "moderator", but when 
poison starts seeping through just blacklist the email address/account. We 
can't assume everyone is guilty but when the guidelines of common decency are 
violated then we need to have a process. It is hardly censorship; personal, 
vindictive and downright discriminatory comments should not be tolerated on our 
mailing list if we don't want them (if they were actively welcomed, I don't 
think most of us would be here).

Obviously they could come back with another address/account but the average 
internet troll will probably be somewhat deterred by this, especially if they 
are voicing their bigotry because they had too much to drink or something 
(obviously they could be a bigot in real life, just not very vocal). If they 
are actually like this all the time, then a formal mailing list probably isn't 
their average abode, or particularly convenient. Likely they frequent 
reactionary online forums much more often.

The troll is gone now, so problem solved? If I am correct, these are linked to 
a forum on the Google Groups website? I don't know if deleting the posts is the 
right form of action but I would think that one or two of them should probably 
go. They do reflect badly on the community to an extent.

Just my view on the matter,
D.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"qubes-users" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/73BABAE0-62BE-478D-AEA4-92E2C0AAAC86%40posteo.net.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [qubes-users] Qubes-users forum - Please, moderate this guy

[raahelps]

On Saturday, July 9, 2016 at 10:07:11 AM UTC-4, Alex wrote:
> On 07/09/2016 02:17 PM, Gorka Alonso wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/qubes-users/V8_SvMk0yx0/P4VNTpFnBQAJ
> > 
> > "Achim. Don't forget YOU are the homosexual, NOT ME. That's a mental
> > disease, doesn't matter if for political reasons was removed or not
> > from disease list."
> > 
> > Even me, being heterosexual, feel offended with this attitude.
> > 
> Please note that this is not a forum, this is a mailing list. The rules
> are a little different, especially regarding bans/censoring.
> 
> While your requests can be understood, the result will be poor, because
> anybody has a copy of the messages sent here and users can post without
> actual registration. "Banning" somebody will likely not have any
> practical effect.
> 
> The best result as always on the internet is to just ignore people
> overreacting, aka drop the conversation entirely on the spot, without
> turning back or announcing "I'm gonna leave the conversation now" or
> anything else like that.
> 
> Just my 2 cents, not only for a mailing list but can be applied
> (successfully, I would say) all over the net.
> 
> -- 
> Alex

I always call it a forum cause I log into google groups webpage.   You are 
right to just ignore is usually best solution.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"qubes-users" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/1815ece4-8992-4f6c-9b8e-e5a6c479ccbe%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [qubes-users] Qubes-users forum - Please, moderate this guy

[Achim Patzner]

> Am 09.07.2016 um 15:29 schrieb Chris Laprise :
> On 07/09/2016 08:17 AM, Gorka Alonso wrote:
>> Even me, being heterosexual, feel offended with this attitude.
> I agree.

I’m neither really heterosexual nor depressed nor do I really feel offended. 
This more than slightly disoriented individual is appearing around a number of 
mailing lists and forums from time to time (doesn’t anybody remember the last 
similar occurrence here?), annoying the community with complete nonsense until 
he finds something to feel insulted about and tries picking a fight. If you 
don’t feed him after his initial attack he’ll just wither away.

Yes, moderation would help but would you really want someone to read every 
single message before forwarding it to the mailing list? Right now it is easier 
to provoke an attack (as I did) and then ignore him (which after all will annoy 
him more). That’s why I put up the

___
   /|  /|  |  |
   ||__||  |   Please don't   |
  /   O O\__   feed   |
 /  \   the trolls|
/  \ \|
   /   _\ \ -- 
  /|\\ \ ||
 / | | | |\/ ||
/   \|_|_|/   |__||
   /  /  \|| ||
  /   |   | /||  --|   
  |   |   |// |  --|   
   * _|  |_|_|_|  | \-/
*-- _--\ _ \ //   |
  /  _ \\ _ //   |/
*  /   \_ /- | - |   | 
  *  ___ c_c_c_C/ \C_c_c_c

sign.


Achim

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"qubes-users" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/7D32B49B-A51B-4E7A-A4F0-80CE08162E73%40noses.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [qubes-users] Qubes-users forum - Please, moderate this guy

[Holger Levsen]

On Sat, Jul 09, 2016 at 10:31:16AM -0700, bur...@gmail.com wrote:
> I don't think those characterizations hold up. A person arriving at this 
> venue will be sensitive to social signals of acceptance or intolerance. They 
> may arrive here from links in the documentation. And it channels important 
> statements from ITL.
> 
> The approach advocated here creates a medium for hateful messages to dominate 
> against a background of silence.

FWIW I fully agree. Just ignoring assholes is not enough to prevent
those from poisoning a community.


-- 
cheers,
Holger

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"qubes-users" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/20160709190158.GA16724%40layer-acht.org.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature

Re: [qubes-users] Qubes-users forum - Please, moderate this guy

[burzze]

On Saturday, July 9, 2016 at 12:40:35 PM UTC-4, Alex wrote:
> On 07/09/2016 06:21 PM, bur...@gmail.com wrote:
> > 
> > If antisocial attitudes start propagating on the list, then curtail
> > it. Don't let newcomers wonder whether the project managers condone
> > those messages. That is toxic.
> This is not about propagation; the solutions proposed is dropping the
> conversation, which is different. More on this later on.
> 
> > Making it all about them and their feelings means being held hostage
> > to their sentiments. But if they feel strongly, they're going to also
> > feel entitled to do it everywhere when no one calles them out for
> > their abuse.
> The energy of a troll ends sooner or later; be it intentional, when
> there is no reaction, or non-intentional, when the isolation is starting
> to be apparent.
> 
> > In my experience, this kind of free-wheeling attitude usually only
> > applies to abuse from privileged viewpoints and serves to enlarge
> > their sense of entitlement. When the abuse goes in the other
> > direction, however, there isn't even a discussion and action is
> > taken.
> > 
> > There is no doubt in my mind that abuse aimed at some other targets
> > would already have been dispatched with at least a note of
> > disapproval.
> There is nothing wrong with that. This mailing list is free, but has
> been started by somebody, and they make the rules. Nobody said that
> there is (or needs to be) any democracy, rule of law, or impartiality
> with that. This is not a journal, these are not articles, we are
> perfectly aware that there are dogs writing at our keyboard and that our
> opinions are completely just that, opinions. If you seek truth, don't
> search for it on the web. Go read a book, which has to have (by law) a
> known author (or authors), or a journal, which has to have (by law)
> known authors and an obligation of correction of mistakes.
> 
> Those law requirements do not apply to pen-marker writings on the walls
> of a train station, why should you try to apply them here?

I don't think those characterizations hold up. A person arriving at this venue 
will be sensitive to social signals of acceptance or intolerance. They may 
arrive here from links in the documentation. And it channels important 
statements from ITL.

The approach advocated here creates a medium for hateful messages to dominate 
against a background of silence.


> 
> > You're probably a native English speaker; Even as the digital divide
> > has shrunk, the Anglophone web is still dripping with intolerance
> > coming from straight, white, religious, male hatred that looks down
> > on everyone else. You may also be spending too much time in your
> > activist circles; Skim random videos on Youtube, or comment sections
> > of tech sites...its unavoidable in those venues and flourishes
> > because it receives tacit approval.
> And yet, people in their right mind should never trust unreliable
> sources. I myself *could* register a dozen gmail accounts and go write
> everywhere on the net about $thing. This does not make it real, and does
> not make it more trustworthy than a thousand pen-marker writings on the
> walls of a train station.
> 
> Tacit approval is a problem with verified sources, say books, newspapers
> or journals, and this is exactly why they have an obligation of
> correction by law. If you see a problem with this, it's because you are
> trying to compare very different forms of pubblications.

Not only is this an official forum, referenced by the system documentation and 
bug tracker, and where messages are often signed... but I find your "go read a 
book" comment to be a bit too dismissive. So I can start to get an impression 
where your sympathies lie, because you didn't tell the troll to go somewhere 
else for answers. (Interesting how easily that attitude couched in erudite 
language gets twisted against those who speak up.) You're misrepresenting the 
nature of the medium and making excuses for his outbursts instead. And you said 
its fine if there is a bias.

This fake position of indifference is really thinly-veiled hostility... If you 
don't want to hear people complaining about trolls, I suggest YOU go find a 
book that doesn't exist (the Qubes book) and read it. Don't be an asshole.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"qubes-users" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/f57eff5d-71c5-4817-84db-61c0e63a293c%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [qubes-users] Qubes-users forum - Please, moderate this guy

[Alex]

On 07/09/2016 06:21 PM, bur...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> If antisocial attitudes start propagating on the list, then curtail
> it. Don't let newcomers wonder whether the project managers condone
> those messages. That is toxic.
This is not about propagation; the solutions proposed is dropping the
conversation, which is different. More on this later on.

> Making it all about them and their feelings means being held hostage
> to their sentiments. But if they feel strongly, they're going to also
> feel entitled to do it everywhere when no one calles them out for
> their abuse.
The energy of a troll ends sooner or later; be it intentional, when
there is no reaction, or non-intentional, when the isolation is starting
to be apparent.

> In my experience, this kind of free-wheeling attitude usually only
> applies to abuse from privileged viewpoints and serves to enlarge
> their sense of entitlement. When the abuse goes in the other
> direction, however, there isn't even a discussion and action is
> taken.
> 
> There is no doubt in my mind that abuse aimed at some other targets
> would already have been dispatched with at least a note of
> disapproval.
There is nothing wrong with that. This mailing list is free, but has
been started by somebody, and they make the rules. Nobody said that
there is (or needs to be) any democracy, rule of law, or impartiality
with that. This is not a journal, these are not articles, we are
perfectly aware that there are dogs writing at our keyboard and that our
opinions are completely just that, opinions. If you seek truth, don't
search for it on the web. Go read a book, which has to have (by law) a
known author (or authors), or a journal, which has to have (by law)
known authors and an obligation of correction of mistakes.

Those law requirements do not apply to pen-marker writings on the walls
of a train station, why should you try to apply them here?

> You're probably a native English speaker; Even as the digital divide
> has shrunk, the Anglophone web is still dripping with intolerance
> coming from straight, white, religious, male hatred that looks down
> on everyone else. You may also be spending too much time in your
> activist circles; Skim random videos on Youtube, or comment sections
> of tech sites...its unavoidable in those venues and flourishes
> because it receives tacit approval.
And yet, people in their right mind should never trust unreliable
sources. I myself *could* register a dozen gmail accounts and go write
everywhere on the net about $thing. This does not make it real, and does
not make it more trustworthy than a thousand pen-marker writings on the
walls of a train station.

Tacit approval is a problem with verified sources, say books, newspapers
or journals, and this is exactly why they have an obligation of
correction by law. If you see a problem with this, it's because you are
trying to compare very different forms of pubblications.

> And lets not ignore the fact that your post has already served as a
> segue point to make excuses for the poor misunderstood souls. It
> would be funny if it didn't make ITL appear comfortable with
> bigotry.
As I said, publishing on a journal/book/registered website is *one*
thing, an intentionally unmoderated list of e-mails is *another*, and
the latter does *not* produce any form of endorsement, nor "being
confortable with" anything.

The suggested solution connects with this difference, in that the fact
that published e-mails are a form of conversation gives endorsement in
replying. So dropping the conversation altogether IS the most effective
form of rebuttal on *this* particular form of communication/publishing.

The fact that the english language is so extremely simple does not give
me different words for "publishing on a journal", which implies some
form of trust in the authors, because of requirements by law, and
"publishing as in writing on a wall", which does not provide any form of
verification of any authors. You can liken the comments on a video/blog
post/tumblr to this flurry of e-mails. They are completely insignificant
per se, and gain importance only in their contents.

This mailing list is just people writing on a wall, there are
interesting articles, and kids drawing dick pictures. Ignore the dick
pictures, for the many of them that may appear, and take the interesting
bits.

-- 
Alex

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"qubes-users" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/0edc6d94-3a00-2070-23f3-afb83b477a5a%40gmx.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.


signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: [qubes-users] Qubes-users forum - Please, moderate this guy

[Alex]

On 07/09/2016 04:59 PM, Desobediente wrote:
> I'm a political activist with years of experience of dealing with
> related situations, especially in the internet, and I endorse the
> idea that the single thing you can do is to ignore these things.
> [...]
Another thing I think may help the younger people understand the
toughness of the problem of understanding each other on the internet is
the fact that, by written word only, you cannot easily ascertain the
state of mind of the writer. "Bad guys" on the internet are not always
trolls.

As an example, people may sit at their computer after a hard day at
work, or after an argument with their partner, and may channel their
stress to their fingertips. The fact that sending e-mails does not incur
in post fees, and that there is a sense of anonymity, unleashes the
worst of us even when it's not intended.

So, there are people whose work is to disrupt online communities, be it
for a paid job, or for fun, and there are hard moments in the life of
everyone of us. Everyone of these people may sit at a computer and write
an e-mail, and we can never be 100% sure of what their ideas actually
are. Mix that with the fact that a lot of the users here are not native
english speaker (myself included), and may use figures of speech that
make sense only in some specific culture.

TL;DR: Drop the conversation already if it takes a wrong turn. There
will be many more occasions of agreement together later in time.

I may not have the experience of Disobediente, but that's what I
observed in my life with people I got to know.

-- 
Alex

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"qubes-users" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/289eb4e3-0d94-dc60-5ed0-bc778b98f638%40gmx.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.


signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: [qubes-users] Qubes-users forum - Please, moderate this guy

[Desobediente]

I'm a political activist with years of experience of dealing with related 
situations, especially in the internet, and I endorse the idea that the single 
thing you can do is to ignore these things.

A really sad thing indeed, and irritating, but in the end it boils down to 
"just ignore".

The technical nature of a mailing list does not allow "banning", in some cases, 
not even "moderation". Even if messages are erased from groups.google.com, 
everyone has a copy already. In a controlled environment where you could 
determine whether people are able to read some messages, that would be 
possible. But given the circumstances, that's not an option.

That said, there is another problem. When you censor people that has a strong 
opinion (not saying it's right or wrong), they get upset and usually start 
promoting even more of the same agenda. So when you say someone is wrong and 
should shut up, what you are really doing is telling them that they should 
continue making their point again and again and in so many ways until it's 
spammed everywhere and there's no way that anyone doesn't see it.

In this given context, whenever you fight back anything you don't agree with, 
the subject will almost always presume that "you didn't get it" and will flame 
you with all kinds of different ways of saying the very same thing, until you 
admit he's right.

My experience shows that there are other ways of achieving victory in a 
ideological fight than to elect a operational system mailing list as a stage, 
but don't get my word, I recommend anyone to try and see for itself ;)

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"qubes-users" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/146190c9-8dc1-47f6-9168-070f98dc841b%40googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [qubes-users] Qubes-users forum - Please, moderate this guy

[Duncan Guthrie]

On 9 July 2016 13:17:13 BST, Gorka Alonso  wrote:
>
>
>https://groups.google.com/d/msg/qubes-users/V8_SvMk0yx0/P4VNTpFnBQAJ
>
>"Achim. Don't forget YOU are the homosexual, NOT ME. That's a mental
>disease, doesn't matter if for political reasons was removed or not
>from disease list."
>
>Even me, being heterosexual, feel offended with this attitude.

Here is another bad thing they said: 

"If you want to REMAIN WRONg, you - consider some kinda autistic thinking about 
to WHO is qubes directed
with a limited mind about what are the activities of a NORMAL PERSON
inside a computer."

Again, I think this is needlessly inflammatory and stigmatises autistic people.

D.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"qubes-users" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/2A361A4F-557E-4AB3-A69D-7BA12E19E1B7%40posteo.net.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: [qubes-users] Qubes-users forum - Please, moderate this guy

[Chris Laprise]

On 07/09/2016 08:17 AM, Gorka Alonso wrote:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/qubes-users/V8_SvMk0yx0/P4VNTpFnBQAJ

"Achim. Don't forget YOU are the homosexual, NOT ME. That's a mental disease, 
doesn't matter if for political reasons was removed or not from disease list."

Even me, being heterosexual, feel offended with this attitude.



I agree.

Chris

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"qubes-users" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to qubes-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to qubes-users@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit 
https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/qubes-users/80af9b5a-8c3b-77ea-044a-db5546b17ee6%40openmailbox.org.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.