Re: [ntp:questions] w32time
In article mpg.26854e5ff4b4b56a989...@aioe.org, g8...@uko2.co.uk says... Hi All. As people on here seem to know about all this, a question if I may. This came up while in discussion with another party, in regards to potential steps in time caused by allowing w32time to do the job, instead of a custom app, or feature in yet another program. What I'd like to ask, is how does w32time manipulate the local PC's clock. .. .. .. .. Thanks for all that information people. Very much appreciated. Dave B G0WBX(G8KBV) ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] w32time
Steve Kostecke koste...@ntp.org wrote in message news:slrni1tbbt.fk7.koste...@stasis.kostecke.net... On 2010-06-18, David J Taylor david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: I would welcome SNMP in NTP and have said so on a number of occasions. There is an ./ntpsnmpd directory in ntp-dev and ntp-stable. The earliest mention of snmp I can find in the ntp-dev ChangeLog is (4.2.5p130) 2008/09/13 Thanks, Steve. Yes, I know there is work ongoing, but it doesn't seem to have made it into the Windows port of ntpd 4.2.6p2-RC5 as yet. Cheers, David ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] w32time
On 2010-06-21, David J Taylor david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: Steve Kostecke koste...@ntp.org wrote in message There is an ./ntpsnmpd directory in ntp-dev and ntp-stable. The earliest mention of snmp I can find in the ntp-dev ChangeLog is (4.2.5p130) 2008/09/13 Thanks, Steve. Yes, I know there is work ongoing, but it doesn't seem to have made it into the Windows port of ntpd 4.2.6p2-RC5 as yet. You could file an enhancement request in our BTS (at http://bugs.ntp.org) to let our developers know that you'd like to have this feature added. But, unless people step up to the plate and contribute, you will most likely have to continue to wait. Coders are welcome to contribute to the NTP development effort. The source code is available for download from http://www.ntp.org/downloards.html or http://support.ntp.org/download. Developement issues are discussed on hack...@lists.ntp.org. Individuals and organizations who wish to support NTP development, but do not have the time or ability to code, are encouraged to join the NTP Forum (http://ntpforum.isc.org/). -- Steve Kostecke koste...@ntp.org NTP Public Services Project - http://support.ntp.org/ ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] w32time
Steve Kostecke koste...@ntp.org wrote in message news:slrni1ukvt.vh7.koste...@stasis.kostecke.net... [] You could file an enhancement request in our BTS (at http://bugs.ntp.org) to let our developers know that you'd like to have this feature added. But, unless people step up to the plate and contribute, you will most likely have to continue to wait. Thanks, Steve. Bug 1577 added. Coders are welcome to contribute to the NTP development effort. The source code is available for download from http://www.ntp.org/downloards.html or http://support.ntp.org/download. Developement issues are discussed on hack...@lists.ntp.org. I don't do C so I can't really help. If a DLL is all that is required I can certainly try and write that in Delphi, but I suspect that few other developers could reproduce or modify it. I wouldn't know how to extract the relevant variables from NTP's memory area or API call either. Perhaps some of the following may be of help? http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms894680.aspx http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms894572.aspx http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms906840.aspx http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc750391.aspx Thanks, David ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] w32time
On 2010-06-18, Richard B. Gilbert rgilber...@comcast.net wrote: David J Taylor wrote: Ryan Malayter malay...@gmail.com wrote in message news:aanlktimovwejjo8twxa2xwgep4dhebgalgqv1vnhi...@mail.gmail.com... [] The fact that niether the reference implementation nor w32time have direct support for SNMP, a *far* more widely used and documented managment standard, would seem to be another way to look at who has a problem. Windows Group Policy and WMI comprise a far more widley accepted management standard than NTP mode 6/7 packets in any case. I would welcome SNMP in NTP and have said so on a number of occasions. [] I agree, when you *need* ntpd features for specific applications. I recommend w32time when you don't, as that is the simlpest from an operational perspective. Keep it simple. In the cases I have seen recently, W32time simply isn't good enough. One set of users are looking for sub-second accuracy (a lot with Windows XP), and another set for about millisecond accuracy using Windows. The former can be reference NTP over the Internet, and the latter reference NTP with a local GPS source. RFC1305 refers to NTP v3, by the way, but I think most are now on NTP v4. There is still no published RFC for NTPv4. Alternative implementers cannot be expected to read the source code of the reference implementation and track it for compatibiltiy and work-alike behavior. Completely agreed. You can read the source code is no substitute for a proper specification and test profile. Cheers, David I seem to recall that it has been a year or two since NTP v4 was released. At last reports a committee (God Help Us) was working on a draft of a new RFC for NTP. A question for the committee if I may: When does the vapor condense? I think your timescale is wrong. I think it has been almost a decade. Fortunately there is very little difference between 3 and 4. ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] w32time
On 2010-06-18, David J Taylor david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk wrote: I would welcome SNMP in NTP and have said so on a number of occasions. There is an ./ntpsnmpd directory in ntp-dev and ntp-stable. The earliest mention of snmp I can find in the ntp-dev ChangeLog is (4.2.5p130) 2008/09/13 -- Steve Kostecke koste...@ntp.org NTP Public Services Project - http://support.ntp.org/ ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] w32time
David Woolley da...@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid wrote in message news:hvgor5$8h...@news.eternal-september.org... [] The reference version was available for the Windows NT family long before W32Time. It was available for versions of NT that never had W32Time. Interesting, David. The earliest NTP file I have on the system here is from September 2002, and it contains a reference: May 07 1996 ANNOUNCE: Enhancements to the Windows NT port of XNTP 3.5 I no longer have systems running NT earlier than Windows 2000, so I can't check which had W32time. The earliest NT disk I have, though, is from July 1992... Cheers, David ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] w32time
David J Taylor david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk.invalid wrote: David Woolley da...@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid wrote in message news:hvgor5$8h...@news.eternal-september.org... [] The reference version was available for the Windows NT family long before W32Time. It was available for versions of NT that never had W32Time. Interesting, David. The earliest NTP file I have on the system here is from September 2002, and it contains a reference: May 07 1996 ANNOUNCE: Enhancements to the Windows NT port of XNTP 3.5 I no longer have systems running NT earlier than Windows 2000, so I can't check which had W32time. The earliest NT disk I have, though, is from July 1992... Windows NT had a time service, but at that time it was still called TIMESERV. It had its config in TIMESERV.INI instead of in the registry. I guess it was a left-over from the times before the registry. (OS/2 maybe?) ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] w32time
Rob wrote: Windows NT had a time service, but at that time it was still called TIMESERV. It had its config in TIMESERV.INI instead of in the registry. It also wasn't based on NTP wire formats. I think it used SMB, as for Windows for Workstations. ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] w32time
Rob nom...@example.com wrote in message news:slrni1p277.kei.nom...@xs8.xs4all.nl... [] Windows NT had a time service, but at that time it was still called TIMESERV. It had its config in TIMESERV.INI instead of in the registry. I guess it was a left-over from the times before the registry. (OS/2 maybe?) Checked back to my early 1992, 1995 NT Workstation 3.51, and 1996 Workstation 4.0 disks but I couldn't find any evidence of any time service - at least by looking for *TIM* on the install disks! May have been obscured by being in an archive file or whatever. Cheers, David ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] w32time
David Woolley da...@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid wrote in message news:hvi540$s8...@news.eternal-september.org... Rob wrote: Windows NT had a time service, but at that time it was still called TIMESERV. It had its config in TIMESERV.INI instead of in the registry. It also wasn't based on NTP wire formats. I think it used SMB, as for Windows for Workstations. NET TIME IIRC - something like that. When I introduced Windows NT into the company I made sure the infrastructure was NTP-based! Cheers, David ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] w32time
David Woolley da...@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid wrote: Rob wrote: Windows NT had a time service, but at that time it was still called TIMESERV. It had its config in TIMESERV.INI instead of in the registry. It also wasn't based on NTP wire formats. I think it used SMB, as for Windows for Workstations. Incorrect, it could use about 15 different formats, one of them being NTP (implemented as SNTP of course). Thinking a bit more about it, it was an optional program included in a resource kit or similar named package, not part of the base install. ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] w32time
David J Taylor david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk.invalid wrote: David Woolley da...@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid wrote in message news:hvi540$s8...@news.eternal-september.org... Rob wrote: Windows NT had a time service, but at that time it was still called TIMESERV. It had its config in TIMESERV.INI instead of in the registry. It also wasn't based on NTP wire formats. I think it used SMB, as for Windows for Workstations. NET TIME IIRC - something like that. NET TIME is not TIMESERV. ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] w32time
Rob nom...@example.com wrote in message news:slrni1p6rl.m7v.nom...@xs8.xs4all.nl... David J Taylor david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk.invalid wrote: David Woolley da...@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid wrote in message news:hvi540$s8...@news.eternal-september.org... Rob wrote: Windows NT had a time service, but at that time it was still called TIMESERV. It had its config in TIMESERV.INI instead of in the registry. It also wasn't based on NTP wire formats. I think it used SMB, as for Windows for Workstations. NET TIME IIRC - something like that. NET TIME is not TIMESERV. Thanks - perhaps NET TIME was the one which used SMB? Cheers, David ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] w32time
David J Taylor david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk.invalid wrote: Rob nom...@example.com wrote in message news:slrni1p6rl.m7v.nom...@xs8.xs4all.nl... David J Taylor david-tay...@blueyonder.co.uk.invalid wrote: David Woolley da...@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid wrote in message news:hvi540$s8...@news.eternal-september.org... Rob wrote: Windows NT had a time service, but at that time it was still called TIMESERV. It had its config in TIMESERV.INI instead of in the registry. It also wasn't based on NTP wire formats. I think it used SMB, as for Windows for Workstations. NET TIME IIRC - something like that. NET TIME is not TIMESERV. Thanks - perhaps NET TIME was the one which used SMB? NET TIME uses SMB, but it is not a service. It is a one-shot command. ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] w32time
David J Taylor wrote: Ryan Malayter malay...@gmail.com wrote in message news:aanlktimovwejjo8twxa2xwgep4dhebgalgqv1vnhi...@mail.gmail.com... [] The fact that niether the reference implementation nor w32time have direct support for SNMP, a *far* more widely used and documented managment standard, would seem to be another way to look at who has a problem. Windows Group Policy and WMI comprise a far more widley accepted management standard than NTP mode 6/7 packets in any case. I would welcome SNMP in NTP and have said so on a number of occasions. [] I agree, when you *need* ntpd features for specific applications. I recommend w32time when you don't, as that is the simlpest from an operational perspective. Keep it simple. In the cases I have seen recently, W32time simply isn't good enough. One set of users are looking for sub-second accuracy (a lot with Windows XP), and another set for about millisecond accuracy using Windows. The former can be reference NTP over the Internet, and the latter reference NTP with a local GPS source. RFC1305 refers to NTP v3, by the way, but I think most are now on NTP v4. There is still no published RFC for NTPv4. Alternative implementers cannot be expected to read the source code of the reference implementation and track it for compatibiltiy and work-alike behavior. Completely agreed. You can read the source code is no substitute for a proper specification and test profile. Cheers, David I seem to recall that it has been a year or two since NTP v4 was released. At last reports a committee (God Help Us) was working on a draft of a new RFC for NTP. A question for the committee if I may: When does the vapor condense? ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] w32time
David J Taylor wrote: Early versions of W32time (up to XP, but I'm not 100% sure) just stepped the clock, with a default update interval of 8 days. Over a week! Later versions (Server 2003 and later, I believe) had more NTP-like behaviour, but did not conform to the management protocols of NTP (so you can't check the offset), didn't use ntp.conf, couldn't be used as ref-clocks, and likely didn't conform in dozens of other respects. As far as I know, even the current version needs extensive reconfiguration before it behaves like NTP. I don't know if stepping version frequency control is one of those configuration options, but I doubt that frequency control is a safe option with very long poll intervals, which may get missed. As the reference version of NTP was available for Windows by then, The reference version was available for the Windows NT family long before W32Time. It was available for versions of NT that never had W32Time. replacing W32time with reference NTP was an obvious automatic first step after installing Windows. ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] w32time
On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 17:31 UTC, Ryan Malayter malay...@gmail.com wrote: There is still no published RFC for NTPv4. That's true, but it will not be true for much longer: http://www.rfc-editor.org/cluster_info.php?cid=C76 I encourage you to click on the underlined AUTH48 links. All authors of the four pending NTPv4 RFCs have signed off. I make no predictions about exact timing, but from what I understand of the process, and what those rfc-editor.org pages currently show, it appears these RFCs will issue this summer. Get used to thinking 5905 when you hear 1305... My thanks and congratulations to all those involved in the NTPv4 RFC efforts. Cheers, Dave Hart ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org http://lists.ntp.org/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] W32time - encrypted request to NTP server?
Danny Mayer wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is this supported or possible in Windows 2000? I've managed to edit the registry to point at my local NTP server and this works fine. The NTP host supports MD5 authentication and, ideally, I'd like the Windows 2000 client to use this when requesting from the NTP server. The question doesn't make much sense. Why would you want to encrypt the request? What are you trying to hide? Danny Perhaps the OP meant that he would like the client to be able to ascertain that the server really is the server he configured. Isn't that, after all, the purpose of authentication? But perhaps this is too much to expect from Windows. ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] W32time - encrypted request to NTP server?
On 2008-03-23, Richard B. Gilbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps the OP meant that he would like the client to be able to ascertain that the server really is the server he configured. Isn't that, after all, the purpose of authentication? The OP asked about encryption (note the subject of this thread). authentication != encryption -- Steve Kostecke [EMAIL PROTECTED] NTP Public Services Project - http://support.ntp.org/ ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] W32time - encrypted request to NTP server?
Steve Kostecke wrote: On 2008-03-23, Richard B. Gilbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps the OP meant that he would like the client to be able to ascertain that the server really is the server he configured. Isn't that, after all, the purpose of authentication? The OP asked about encryption (note the subject of this thread). authentication != encryption AS far as I know, the only purpose of encryption in NTP is to authenticate the server to the client! This is done by including an encrypted signature in the packet. There is nothing secret in an NTP packet that would require encryption for any other purpose. If he meant something else, he failed to make himself clear! ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
Re: [ntp:questions] W32time - encrypted request to NTP server?
Richard B. Gilbert wrote: Danny Mayer wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Is this supported or possible in Windows 2000? I've managed to edit the registry to point at my local NTP server and this works fine. The NTP host supports MD5 authentication and, ideally, I'd like the Windows 2000 client to use this when requesting from the NTP server. The question doesn't make much sense. Why would you want to encrypt the request? What are you trying to hide? Danny Perhaps the OP meant that he would like the client to be able to ascertain that the server really is the server he configured. Isn't that, after all, the purpose of authentication? Authentication, maybe. Encryption no. They are not related to each other. But perhaps this is too much to expect from Windows. No. Windows can do both encryption (see the OpenSSL libraries as well as Microsoft's) and can do authentication (see Autokey). Danny ___ questions mailing list questions@lists.ntp.org https://lists.ntp.org/mailman/listinfo/questions
