Re: [R] Re: Protocol for answering basic questions
Liaw, Andy wrote: ... Someone mentioned a tip shown at R startup (a la S-PLUS for Windows, I guess). I guess someone (hint, hint) could collect a set of tips, perhaps using Paul Johnson's page as a starting point, and make it into a contrib package similar to the `fortune' package. Those who likes it can have a random one displayed at startup. Those who don't need not bother. Remember, the more complete the list of tips, the less likely that you will want to read any given one when it appears. This is probably why I turn this feature off whenever it is offered. Jim __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
RE: [R] Re: Protocol for answering basic questions
I'll really be brief this time... From: Tony Plate [snip] Also, I think that John Maindonald's idea of a I am new to R, where do I start? page, with a link from the posting guide, is an excellent idea. Someone mentioned a tip shown at R startup (a la S-PLUS for Windows, I guess). I guess someone (hint, hint) could collect a set of tips, perhaps using Paul Johnson's page as a starting point, and make it into a contrib package similar to the `fortune' package. Those who likes it can have a random one displayed at startup. Those who don't need not bother. [snip] [Attribution to Andy Liaw, or remain anonymous?] Umm... I did say that out in the public, so I guess not much point in hiding now... Best, Andy As some feel that sufficient time and bandwidth has already been spent on this issue, if anyone has any comments on this particular matter of an addition to the posting guide (or FAQ), feel free to choose to respond to me privately, and I will summarize as appropriate. -- Tony Plate __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
Re: [R] Re: Protocol for answering basic questions
Perhaps something like the following paragraph should be added to the start of the Posting Guide (as a new paragraph right after the existing first paragraph): Note that R-help is *not* intended for questions that are easily answered by consulting one of the FAQs or other introductory material (see Do your homework before posting below).Such questions are actively discouraged and are likely to evoke a brusque response. Questions about seemingly simple matters that are mentioned in the FAQs or other introductory material *are welcomed* on R-help *when the questioner obviously has done their homework and the question is accompanied by an explanation* like FAQ 7.2.1 seems to be relevant to this but I couldn't understand/apply the answer because Something like this would make it very clear up front what type of questions are not appropriate. (I'm not trying at all to dictate the policy, but as far as I can tell, the above summaries the attitude of the majority of very knowledgeable helpers that respond to questions on R-help.) Also, I think that John Maindonald's idea of a I am new to R, where do I start? page, with a link from the posting guide, is an excellent idea. I'm aware that some feel that the posting guide is already too long, but my feeling is that if users don't read a very easily accessible posting guide AND post inappropriate questions AND become offended by brusque responses, then they are beyond where they can easily be helped. The most important thing is to make it very clear what types of questions are and are not considered appropriate, so that beginning users know what they are getting into. And the following might merit inclusion in the FAQ: Why is R-help not for hand-holding beginner questions? R-help is a high traffic list and the general sentiment is that too many very simple questions will overwhelm everyone and most importantly result in the knowledgeable helpers ceasing to participate. The reason that there is no R-help-me-quickly-I-dont-want-to-read-the-documentation list is that no-one has felt that it would work well -- it is unlikely that many knowledgeable users of R would be willing to participate. Without such users participating, it is likely that sometimes bad advice would be offered and stand uncorrected, because R is a complex language with many ways of doing things, some markedly inferior to others. For these reasons, some feel it would be a very bad idea to create such a list. (However, anyone who believes otherwise and wishes to start and maintain such a list or other similar service is free to do so.) One reason for this overall state of affairs is that R is free software and consequently there is no revenue stream to support a hand-holding support service with paid employees. So although the actual software is free, some investment in terms of time spent reading documentation is required in order to use it. Furthermore, many of the frequent helpers on R-help have written introductory documents intended to help beginners with many aspects of learning and using R (e.g., An Introduction to R, and the various FAQs). Consequently they sometimes get fed up getting asked again and again the same question they have already written a document to explain. Nonetheless, the general sentiment on R-help is very helpful -- a quote summarizes it well: It's OK if you need some spoonfeeding (I need that quite often myself), but at least show how you have tried to use the spoon yourself, instead of just showing us your open mouth. [Attribution to Andy Liaw, or remain anonymous?] As some feel that sufficient time and bandwidth has already been spent on this issue, if anyone has any comments on this particular matter of an addition to the posting guide (or FAQ), feel free to choose to respond to me privately, and I will summarize as appropriate. -- Tony Plate __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
[R] Re: Protocol for answering basic questions
I think that enough bandwidth has been expended on this topic. Many people have attempted, patiently, to explain why the protocol to which the r-help list currently adhers is necessary and close to optimal. The thin-skinned whiners who wish to be told ``Yes, dear, that was an ***excellent*** question'' are not going to listen to or understand these explanations. If they wish to take their business elsewhere, let them. They won't be missed. (It will do them less than no good, in the long run, to do so --- but that's their lookout.) I don't know if there is a causative relationship, but this whiny attitude is strongly reminiscent of the philosophy which seems to prevail in most school systems in the English speaking world whereby teachers dare not criticize students' work for fear of damaging their self esteem. cheers, Rolf Turner [EMAIL PROTECTED] P. S. And here I was, all these years, thinking that ``self esteem'' was Italian for ``sauna''. R. T. __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
RE: [R] Re: Protocol for answering basic questions
Here here! Getting flamed for asking dumb questions on a public mailing list is all part of growing up and being a man/woman. We've all been there, and quite frankly, even the most basic questions on R-Help get a decent answer from someone, and all for free, so who cares if you get a bit of rudeness or not! Next we'll be seeing lawsuits being brought against people on R-Help for not being polite enough. You couldn't make it up! M -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Rolf Turner Sent: Wed 12/1/2004 5:52 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Subject:[R] Re: Protocol for answering basic questions I think that enough bandwidth has been expended on this topic. Many people have attempted, patiently, to explain why the protocol to which the r-help list currently adhers is necessary and close to optimal. The thin-skinned whiners who wish to be told ``Yes, dear, that was an ***excellent*** question'' are not going to listen to or understand these explanations. If they wish to take their business elsewhere, let them. They won't be missed. (It will do them less than no good, in the long run, to do so --- but that's their lookout.) I don't know if there is a causative relationship, but this whiny attitude is strongly reminiscent of the philosophy which seems to prevail in most school systems in the English speaking world whereby teachers dare not criticize students' work for fear of damaging their self esteem. cheers, Rolf Turner [EMAIL PROTECTED] P. S. And here I was, all these years, thinking that ``self esteem'' was Italian for ``sauna''. R. T. __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
Re: [R] Re: Protocol for answering basic questions
Our great-great grandchilren as yet unborn may read some of the stupid questions and / or answers that I and perhaps others give from time to time. I'd rather get flamed for saying something stupid in public on this list than to continue to provide substandard service to the people with whom I work because I perpetrated the same mistake in an environment in which no one questioned so effectively my errors. Best Wishes, spencer michael watson (IAH-C) wrote: Here here! Getting flamed for asking dumb questions on a public mailing list is all part of growing up and being a man/woman. We've all been there, and quite frankly, even the most basic questions on R-Help get a decent answer from someone, and all for free, so who cares if you get a bit of rudeness or not! Next we'll be seeing lawsuits being brought against people on R-Help for not being polite enough. You couldn't make it up! M -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Rolf Turner Sent: Wed 12/1/2004 5:52 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Subject:[R] Re: Protocol for answering basic questions I think that enough bandwidth has been expended on this topic. Many people have attempted, patiently, to explain why the protocol to which the r-help list currently adhers is necessary and close to optimal. The thin-skinned whiners who wish to be told ``Yes, dear, that was an ***excellent*** question'' are not going to listen to or understand these explanations. If they wish to take their business elsewhere, let them. They won't be missed. (It will do them less than no good, in the long run, to do so --- but that's their lookout.) I don't know if there is a causative relationship, but this whiny attitude is strongly reminiscent of the philosophy which seems to prevail in most school systems in the English speaking world whereby teachers dare not criticize students' work for fear of damaging their self esteem. cheers, Rolf Turner [EMAIL PROTECTED] P. S. And here I was, all these years, thinking that ``self esteem'' was Italian for ``sauna''. R. T. __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html -- Spencer Graves, PhD, Senior Development Engineer O: (408)938-4420; mobile: (408)655-4567 __ [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html
