Re: [SlimDevices: Radio] Finally get the SB Radio!

2010-01-27 Thread Phil Leigh

DaveWr;511100 Wrote: 
> Then again why bother.  a...@b.com
> 
> You also had better remember it, because the great brain in the sky
> will attach it to your MAC address in perpetuity.  So if you fancy a bit
> of MySB.com later you'll be having discussions with support.
> 
> Dave

Hardly a problem is it?
I've owned SB hardware since 2004 and never called support. I've also
never felt the need to use any service that requires my.SB.com...
The "great brain" is hardly a problem. I'd just call them.
Happy Days.


-- 
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W -
MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker & Chord Interconnect cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio

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Re: [SlimDevices: Radio] Finally get the SB Radio!

2010-01-27 Thread DaveWr

Phil Leigh;511099 Wrote: 
> But (for the paranoid out there) it doesn't have to be a REAL email
> address!

Then again why bother.  a...@b.com

Dave


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Re: [SlimDevices: Radio] Finally get the SB Radio!

2010-01-27 Thread Phil Leigh

DaveWr;511092 Wrote: 
> Same here but I didn't have to register with an email address first
> (with no keyboard).
> 
> Dave

But (for the paranoid out there) it doesn't have to be a REAL email
address!


-- 
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W -
MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker & Chord Interconnect cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio

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Re: [SlimDevices: Radio] Finally get the SB Radio!

2010-01-27 Thread DaveWr

Phil Leigh;511051 Wrote: 
>  Even my blu-ray player did to upgrade firmware.

Same here but I didn't have to register with an email address first
(with no keyboard).

Dave


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Re: [SlimDevices: Radio] Finally get the SB Radio!

2010-01-27 Thread Phil Meyer
>There was also the many user enhancement requests that the transition
>between SBS and squeezenetwork be more invisible (e.g. when I turn off
>my server I want the player to start using SN ).
>
But that hasn't happened (switching isn't invisible), and is VERY inconsistent.

i.e. if my SBS is down, it doesn't automatically switch.  It thinks it's still 
connected, until I try to do something.  e.g. I can enter "My Music" even when 
my SBS is switched off, but I can't Browse Artists.  Then I get a lost 
connection screen, which gives me the opportunity to "Try Again", "Go Home" or 
"Choose Player", without the option to Switch Server.

If I "Go Home", then I can't get into "My Music".  I then get the options to 
"Try Again" or "Switch Library".  Switch Library starts an endless spinny - no 
option to connect to MySB.com.

i.e. Some things I try to do will come up with a different dialog of options, 
and doesn't allow auto or manual switch to MySB.com.

I have to try to connect to Internet Radio, and something that I know is 
available in MySB.com (because it has some things that are served by my SBS 
plugins), for it to switch to MySB.com.


When I have got on to MySB.com, if I try to access My Music and my SBS is still 
down, there is no option to Try Again or Switch Server to select an 
alternative.  It just displays an information screen.

If SBS comes back up, it doesn't auto-reconnect to it, or notify me that I can 
manually reconnect.  If I try to access My Music in this instance, it offers to 
switch to my local SBS library.


I don't think that's any more invisible than classic players.  i.e. when a Boom 
loses connection to SBS, it immediately says it's lost connection, and offers a 
list of servers to attempt to connect to.  SqueezePlay is no better than that, 
and often variable in how it asks, and often doesn't work.

There are other problems:

1. If I get a firmware update notification whilst connected to SBS, and then 
SBS server is turned off, there is no way to get out to switch to MySB.  i.e. 
Only an option to start the download, which fails and offers try again.

2. If I am connected to SBS and controlling another player, switching to 
MySB.com doesn't work (both the controlling player and the destination player 
need to switch to the same MySB.com).  This could be because some players 
connect to a test MySB.com server though?

All in all, the decision to enforce the user to create a MySB.com to allow a 
"more invisible" transition when there are connection problems with SBS is 
currently a failure.  Maybe it will get better, but at the moment it sure feels 
a lot worse than classic players.
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Re: [SlimDevices: Radio] Finally get the SB Radio!

2010-01-27 Thread Phil Leigh

Rikk;510949 Wrote: 
> I did, and it wasn't. Otherwise I wouldn't have bought it. I'm saying
> this even if I like it very much.
> In my opinion it's a beautifull piece of hardware with plenty of
> potential, good software (improvable), penalized by wrong marketing
> choises.

I don't understand why you are so upset about needing to connect to the
Internet (once). I expect to do this with almost any electronic
device I buy these days. Even my blu-ray player did to upgrade firmware.


-- 
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
SB Touch Beta (wired) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W -
MF Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Blue
Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker & Chord Interconnect cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio

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Re: [SlimDevices: Radio] Finally get the SB Radio!

2010-01-27 Thread Phil Meyer
>As far as I remember logitech said back then they'd implement to opt
>out by holding the back key a bit longer (if a local SB-Server was
>present).
>If it doesn't work this way then either they forgot to implement this
>or changed their mind again.
>
If it is implemented, it isn't publicised.  There's no instruction during setup 
that the MySqueezebox.com registration can be skipped by pressing back.  It 
would actually be a bit weird, wouldn't it?  I'd expect Back to go back to the 
previous step, or a long press on Back to go to the start of setup.
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Re: [SlimDevices: Radio] Finally get the SB Radio!

2010-01-27 Thread bpa

Rikk;510949 Wrote: 
>  penalized by wrong marketing choises.

When this issue was discussed in beta, I got the impression that user
support was a concern and it was more about trying to improve the user
setup experience rather than "marketing".  I suspect there were support
problems with the old method of entering the code displayed on player
and the developers were trying to improve the process. 

There was also the many user enhancement requests that the transition
between SBS and squeezenetwork be more invisible (e.g. when I turn off
my server I want the player to start using SN ).  The easiest way to
achieve this was to ensure all devices were registered to a SN network
account.

With the above requirements and a time constraint, a decision was made.
I think there were good intentions even though I disagreed with the
decision to require the user to have a mysb.com account to update
firmware.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Radio] Finally get the SB Radio!

2010-01-27 Thread Rikk

Siduhe;510938 Wrote: 
> I haven't checked recently, but it wasn't even mentioned in the launch
> stuff I saw.
I did, and it wasn't. Otherwise I wouldn't have bought it. I'm saying
this even if I like it very much.
In my opinion it's a beautifull piece of hardware with plenty of
potential, good software (improvable), penalized by wrong marketing
choises.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Radio] Finally get the SB Radio!

2010-01-27 Thread Siduhe

As bpa has said, more tactfully that I probably would have, this was
debated at length in the beta test program.  

However, the decision to require the initial connection for firmware
updates is set, and I can't see it changing in future.

What I still don't think Logitech has got quite right is communicating
the impact of that decision to purchasers at point of sale.  To my mind,
the fact that the Radio effectively requires an internet connection on
first use should be made very clear on the marketing bumpf.  I haven't
checked recently, but it wasn't even mentioned in the launch stuff I
saw.


-- 
Siduhe

Who am I on 'LAST.FM' (http://www.last.fm/user/siduhe)?
"-Siduhe Loved Tracks radio got the thumbs up. Feedback included: yeah,
it's good... got the odd dodgy track tho...-" (c) 'ModelCitizen'
(http://www.last.fm/user/Modelcitizen)

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Re: [SlimDevices: Radio] Finally get the SB Radio!

2010-01-27 Thread Rikk

usch;510924 Wrote: 
> We were talking about the OP's situation when there is no working
> internet connection.
> 
> 
> I see. So does that mean the Radio as delivered is in fact inoperable
> until it can connect to MySB at least once (either directly or through a
> local server)?
> 
> 
> Still, it would be perfectly possible to use many of the MySB functions
> without an account. Favorites and alarm times could be saved locally
> (which would even avoid a lot of problems), and why would you need an
> account only to download a firmware update or to look up an internet
> radio station? It is just an additional obstacle for the customer. Our
> local Saturn store has a Radio on display for about two months now which
> is still sitting at the "Create an account" prompt, while the cheaper
> devices on the next shelf are already playing music. If even the sales
> personnel cannot be bothered to enter an e-mail address, why should the
> customer find this easy to use? I am sure they could have sold a couple
> of units more if you could simply use the radio out of the box, without
> jumping through hoops.

couldn't have said the same better

totally subscribe


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Re: [SlimDevices: Radio] Finally get the SB Radio!

2010-01-27 Thread usch

pippin;510903 Wrote: 
> Huh?
> If there is ONE device in the Squeezebox range that is mainly being
> used WITHOUT a server, it's Radio.
We were talking about the OP's situation when there is no working
internet connection.

pippin;510903 Wrote: 
> Plus the server doesn't come with the firmware, it downloads it from
> Logitech after it detects that you have a certain device.
> The firmware packages for Radio and Touch are much bigger than the old
> ones for SB3,...
I see. So does that mean the Radio as delivered is in fact inoperable
until it can connect to MySB at least once (either directly or through a
local server)?

bpa;510881 Wrote: 
> "Creation of an account" sounds serious but it just entails entering an
> e-mail address which can be a throwaway one.  I think product management
> decided that Radio would be an entry point device for many users and
> they would not have a SBS and would use mysb.com.
Still, it would be perfectly possible to use many of the MySB functions
without an account. Favorites and alarm times could be saved locally
(which would even avoid a lot of problems), and why would you need an
account only to download a firmware update or to look up an internet
radio station? It is just an additional obstacle for the customer. Our
local Saturn store has a Radio on display for about two months now which
is still sitting at the "Create an account" prompt, while the cheaper
devices on the next shelf are already playing music. If even the sales
personnel cannot be bothered to enter an e-mail address, why should the
customer find this easy to use? I am sure they could have sold a couple
of units more if you could simply use the radio out of the box, without
jumping through hoops.


-- 
usch

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Re: [SlimDevices: Radio] Finally get the SB Radio!

2010-01-27 Thread pippin

usch;510872 Wrote: 
> Ok, you've got a point here for the Touch that might be used as a
> standalone device, but not really for the Radio which needs a server
> anyway.

Huh?
If there is ONE device in the Squeezebox range that is mainly being
used WITHOUT a server, it's Radio.
Plus the server doesn't come with the firmware, it downloads it from
Logitech after it detects that you have a certain device.
The firmware packages for Radio and Touch are much bigger than the old
ones for SB3,...


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---
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Re: [SlimDevices: Radio] Finally get the SB Radio!

2010-01-27 Thread bpa

> 
> And why does it necessitate the user to create a MySB account in the
> process? If there is a way to opt out of that, it should at least be
> noted in the user manual.
> 
This is a bit off the point for the OP query.  "Creation of an account"
sounds serious but it just entails entering an e-mail address which can
be a throwaway one.  I think product management decided that Radio would
be an entry point device for many users and they would not have a SBS
and would use mysb.com.  It seems to me from the recent mysb.com
problems - product management underestimated the number of users who do
not use a SBS server.  For mysb.com users an "Opt out" of the initial
update results in the situation where user has problems because firmware
is out of date.

> 
> Obviously you cannot play internet radio without an internet connection
> and some plugins that fetch information from the web (like the weather
> screensaver) will not work, but streaming music from your local harddisk
> should be perfectly possible.
> 
Try it - I think it is better to spend a little time to do a simple
test and confirm rather than hypothesise about possibities.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Radio] Finally get the SB Radio!

2010-01-27 Thread DaveWr

bpa;510867 Wrote: 
> I was trying to explain the need to connect to internet.  
> 
> The issue of authentication vs identification is a different matter but
> again it was a design decision of the product management. During beta
> the issue was debated by the beta testers for a long time but without
> change. So it is not a new issue and it is unlikely to change.

Thanks for the clarity.

Dave


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Re: [SlimDevices: Radio] Finally get the SB Radio!

2010-01-27 Thread usch

bpa;510858 Wrote: 
> For example IIRC Touch has been manufactured about June 2009 and stock
> is currently in warehouse and the firmware in these Touch is very out of
> date - functionally enough to get updates but not good enough for a user
> to play music.

Ok, you've got a point here for the Touch that might be used as a
standalone device, but not really for the Radio which needs a server
anyway. If you connect it to a local SBS the server will already have
the required firmware at hand and push it to the device, maybe even
downgrading it again. Both the Radio and the Touch could at least try to
detect a local server first before they give up. And why does it
necessitate the user to create a MySB account in the process? If there
is a way to opt out of that, it should at least be noted in the user
manual.

bpa;510858 Wrote: 
> Try it (disconnect the modem wire from the wall socket). I'm pretty sure
> it doesn't need internet but some functionality will not work and you
> will get error message.
Obviously you cannot play internet radio without an internet connection
:) and some plugins that fetch information from the web (like the
weather screensaver) will not work, but streaming music from your local
harddisk should be perfectly possible.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Radio] Finally get the SB Radio!

2010-01-27 Thread bpa

DaveWr;510861 Wrote: 
> Firmware update is one thing, my blu-ray player does it,  but I don't
> have to register with a central server, and supply identity
> details.
> 
> Dave

I was trying to explain the need to connect to internet.  

The issue of authentication vs identification is a different matter but
again it was a design decision of the product management. During beta
the issue was debated by the beta testers for a long time but without
change. So it is not a new issue and it is unlikely to change.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Radio] Finally get the SB Radio!

2010-01-27 Thread bluegaspode

There was a long discussion about this in the 7.4 beta times (don't have
time to look for it).
Beta-Testers complained a lot that they always had to input they
MSB.com credentials after each factory reset *g*

As far as I remember logitech said back then they'd implement to opt
out by holding the back key a bit longer (if a local SB-Server was
present).
If it doesn't work this way then either they forgot to implement this
or changed their mind again.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Radio] Finally get the SB Radio!

2010-01-27 Thread DaveWr

Firmware update is one thing, my blu-ray player does it,  but I don't
have to register with a central server, and supply identity
details.

Dave


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Re: [SlimDevices: Radio] Finally get the SB Radio!

2010-01-27 Thread bpa

> 
> ok, but still don't understand why... if I didn't have an internet
> connection available...
> 

It is a design decision.  The initial internet connection ensures that
the product has the latest firmware.  For example IIRC Touch has been
manufactured about June 2009 and stock is currently in warehouse and the
firmware in these Touch is very out of date - functionally enough to get
updates but not good enough for a user to play music. 

If the user tried to use the product (with old firmware) out of the box
without an update, the user would probably have many problems and be
onto support / supplier ASAP.  

Since manufacturing & distribution have a lead time, firmware will
always be out of date,  so an update is always required.  The choice is
whether device update comes via an SBS or direct from Logitech.  I
believe product management decided that  many users are not very
technical and may not have a working SBS setup and so there would be a
better user experience where the device connected at least once directly
to Logictech (via mysqueezebox.com) and get updated.  Subsequent updates
can come from SBS.  If a user has problem then support can be sure that
update worked and so the "firmware not up to date" possibility can be
ignored.

> 
> I didn't tryed , but what about SB Server? Does it need to be connected
> to internet to work?
> 

Try it (disconnect the modem wire from the wall socket). I'm pretty
sure it doesn't need internet but some functionality will not work and
you will get error message.

I'm not sure but I think you may still need some "internet" facilities
on this LAN such as a DNS server.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Radio] Finally get the SB Radio!

2010-01-27 Thread DaveWr

bpa;510850 Wrote: 
> Radio and Touch only need to be connected to internet *once* at initial
> setup or after a factory reset.
> /QUOTE]
> 
> I can understand for the Radio  just, but sorry why the Touch.  This is
> a retrograde step for an SB3 replacement.  Logitech need to track users?
> After all the paranoia on these forums about other vendors lock-in!
> 
> Dave


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Re: [SlimDevices: Radio] Finally get the SB Radio!

2010-01-27 Thread Rikk

bpa;510850 Wrote: 
> Radio and Touch only need to be connected to internet *once* at initial
> setup or after a factory reset.
ok, but still don't understand why... if I didn't have an internet
connection available...


bpa;510850 Wrote: 
> During normal operation and after power up which do not reset internal
> settings both Touch and Radio will play music from a server on a LAN
> which is not connected to the internet.
I didn't tryed, but what about SB Server? Does it need to be connected
to internet to work?


bpa;510850 Wrote: 
> Obviously, Internet radio and Apps will not work.
ok, obviously.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Radio] Finally get the SB Radio!

2010-01-27 Thread bpa

Radio and Touch only need to be connected to internet *once* at initial
setup or after a factory reset.

During normal operation and after power up which do not reset internal
settings both Touch and Radio will play music from a server on a LAN
which is not connected to the internet.  Obviously, Internet radio and
Apps will not work.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Radio] Finally get the SB Radio!

2010-01-27 Thread Rikk

DaveWr;510611 Wrote: 
> Well I suppose it is an Internet Radio...
well, not exactly... it's a wifi radio. The net could me my own
private, feeded with a lot of mp3 on my hard disk, and not connected to
internet.
Otherwise why you do impose me to install your SB server on my pc?

Sound like you buy a car and have to call the seller every morning to
ask permission to use it!


DaveWr;510611 Wrote: 
> Now if this is repeated for Touch - madness in extreme.
an absolute nonsense! It has its own server on board, can read directly
a hard disk via usb, and need an internet connection to be set up?!?
Ridiculous!


What if I had my private wireless network at home, without any internet
access, and I wanted to setup my private music net? It simply doesn't
work?
I wanted to buy a Touch because I didn't like the idea of keeping a pc
always on just to run SB Server, but now I'm going to rethink the entire
thing. I'm not sure to invest further in this kind of solution.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Radio] Finally get the SB Radio!

2010-01-26 Thread pippin

Rikk;510487 Wrote: 
> I don't understand this choises, it's like to shoot on your own foot...

Simple: It needs a firmware update first.


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---
see iPeng, the Squeezebox iPhone remote, at penguinlovesmusic.com

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Re: [SlimDevices: Radio] Finally get the SB Radio!

2010-01-26 Thread DaveWr

Well I suppose it is an Internet Radio...


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Re: [SlimDevices: Radio] Finally get the SB Radio!

2010-01-26 Thread Rikk

I don't understand this choises, it's like to shoot on your own foot...


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Re: [SlimDevices: Radio] Finally get the SB Radio!

2010-01-25 Thread Phil Meyer
>Sadly and surprisingly I counldn't do that because I found that the
>radio wants absolutely to be connected to mysqueezebox.com
>
>So my question is: if at home I had no internet connection and wanted
>to set up a SBRadio connected to a SBServer on a pc, howe should I do
>that?
>Is it really not possibile ?
>
Sadly, it's true - an internet connection is required to set the device up.
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Re: [SlimDevices: Radio] Finally get the SB Radio!

2010-01-25 Thread Rikk

bluegaspode;510263 Wrote: 
> Does it help to hold the back-button for a while when the radio wants to
> register ?

don't know: I haven't tryed this one... gonna try...! :)


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Re: [SlimDevices: Radio] Finally get the SB Radio!

2010-01-25 Thread bluegaspode

Does it help to hold the back-button for a while when the radio wants to
register ?


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1x SB-Controller+Receiver (Duet), 1xSB-Boom. 1xSB-Radio
Server (7.4.1) running on SheevaPlug (Ubuntu) with attached Western
Digital MyBook Essential.
Secondary 7.4 Server on Debianized Buffalo Linkstation LS-CHL.

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