Re: [RBW] 26.8 seatposts with generous setback

[Patrick Moore]

Shee-*IT.* I meant to say: He counseled shoving the saddle back and *lowering
it* while raising and shortening the stem.

On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 6:09 PM Patrick Moore  wrote:

> ... I ... complained to Grant that I felt that I was "losing the pedal
> stroke" over top dead center.* He counseled shoving the saddle back and
> raising* it while raising and shortening the stem. Pedaling Nirvana;
> comfort as well as power, not to mention handling back to normal
>

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Re: [RBW] 26.8 seatposts with generous setback

[Patrick Moore]

I've urged this before and I urge it again: Peter Jon White's basic bike
fitting primer is an excellent starting point because it sets out the basic
principles of good bike fit in reference to comfort and power, the basic
goals of good bike fit.

I have a long torso and short limbs -- Asian build on Anglo scale. Long,
long ago I read about KOPS in Bicycling and said to myself, "That is what I
want." But in addition to having short femurs I have a personal
predilection for full leg extension at the bottom of the pedal stroke. This
is not a value judgement, just a preference.

I had a lovely 531C 1989 Falcon with very short front center (hard to get
finger between front tire and tt) and longish (original Riv-length 42.5 to
middle of horizontal dropouts) chainstays. Sure, 57 c-c was probably after
all a bit short for me, but because of KOPS I went out and replaced the
road seatpost with a long Logic mtb post and installed the Flite *all the
way forward* in the cradle; it would slip forward, not backward until I
used blue Loctite. To get sufficient reach to bar I used a 140 mm Cinelli
1A (6" below saddle). All this for KOPS.

What a can of worms. Fast downhills sweepers, especially with gusty
sidewinds were terrifying. I'd skip the rear wheel when standing and mildly
honking up hills in a 65" gear.

I set up my 1992 XO-1 and various other bikes in the same way, then later
complained to Grant that I felt that I was "losing the pedal stroke" over
top dead center. He counseled shoving the saddle back and raising it while
raising and shortening the stem. Pedaling Nirvana; comfort as well as
power, not to mention handling back to normal.

Bike fit principles: get your saddle in place as to height and fore/aft
position first. This is crucial both for pedaling torque and for comfort,
since "balancing" your torso with respect to the bb means that your torso
muscles hold up the torso and you don't rely on your shoulders, arms, and
hands.

Then choose your bar. Then choose a stem that puts the bar in a place that
gives you a torso bend that lets you pedal comfortably and powerfully.

It's simple, really, and it works; PJW and Grant basically agree on
fundamentals.



On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 7:57 PM Garth  wrote:

> I don't agree at all that someone with a long torso and average length of
> legs should use a longer setback seatpost to accommodate it.* Just
> picture yourself on a bike, and suddenly your spine is elongated 6 inches.
> Your legs haven't changed at all and neither should your saddle position.*
> What's called for is a longer frame with an appropriately long stem and
> bars that aren't overly swept back as that rather defeats the goal of
> accommodating your longer torso. While Kim says "I'm comfortable", sure the
> reach is now great, but you're also notably further back of the saddle than
> you need to be. From the photos of your Clem you showed the stem isn't very
> long for someone with a long torso, and Bosco bars aren't helping either.
> If you simply added in stem length the appx. amount of extra setback from
> the post(2-3cm), then you could return to a normal setback post and you
> keep the same reach.
>
> From my experience in being too far back as opposed to being in a normal
> setback position, is the onset of hamstring, back of knee and butt muscle
> pain. Not to mention feeling off center of the BB. Once I returned to a
> normal position, using my quads much more and my core muscles for support,
> all those went away and pedaling is notably more effective. What Jay
> described in adding his reach forward and using his core more effectively
> to accommodate his longer torso I can relate to.
>
> In my opinion sitting up and back on a bike is all wrong as you can't use
> your core muscles effectively. I get that people do it, and Riv promotes
> it, nevertheless, that's what I think of it.
>
> Anyone would be right to question what I speak of. I question everyone and
> myself too. Just because I don't have a bike shop or a title doesn't mean I
> don't know what I'm talking about tough, or that anyone who has a bike shop
> or a title does know what they're talking about. I've been to one
> "professional" fitter in my life, and their "advice" would have placed me
> on a frame with a much too short of top tube. I told them to add 3cm or no
> deal on the custom frame from them. I got the 3cm and I still joyfully ride
> that frame today.
>
> Enjoy the ride.
>

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Re: [RBW] FS: Timberland Cycling Shoes: size 10.5

[Patrick Moore]

I am tempted, except that it seems quite possible that I will never give up
my SPDs after all for the lovely XC Pro quills and the lovelier near-NOS
Duegis I got to use with them; if I ever did install the Suntours on a bike
I'd want a nice pair of "touring" shoes (ie, no cleats) to go with the
ensemble. Nice shoes.

But Timberland. I used to own a couple of pairs of their slip-ons -- "boat
shoes." Hand made in New England somewhere by doughty, independent, laconic
Yankees who valued good work and materials above loquacity. And all leather
lined as well as leather uppers -- only plastic the Vibram soles -- with
ties that actually ran around the perimeter of the upper to snug up the fit
instead of being just tacked on as decoration.

This is not an offer, just a thought-out-loud: if these were to sell for
$35 shipped to NM, I would probably buy them to stick on the shelf with all
my other unused bike shoes.

Patrick "If it were an offer I fear it might be an insult" Moore, who knows
that sometimes people simply get tired of having things and want to get rid
of them, and who likes stiff-soled cycling shoes.

Oh, speaking of stiff cycling soles: I'm pretty damned flexible and spry
for my 68 human years, but I very humorously discovered that stiff-soled
SPD shoes can make one act as if one's joints had calcified. Because I ride
my bikes to church, and because Orthodox (Christian, not Jewish) services
-- esp Slav-based -- are interminably long, I bought a pair of vaguely
Vans-like Specialized SPD shoes. They have a wide toe box, perfectly flat
sole, and are far more comfortable while standing through the typical 2+
hour Sunday liturgy (oh, they get much longer than that!) than my otherwise
perfect 1980s-vintage Shimano SPDs.

But in those Lenten ceremonies where you have to bob rapidly up and down
between standing and kneeling with forehead on floor in full prostrations,
I noticed that I was slow and awkward, and put it down simply to advancing
age and decrepitude -- until one evening I drove in wearing regular Vibram
slip ons and found that I was as spry as I had been in my salad-days-40s;
stiffness due almost entirely to the unbending SPD soles that required me
to carefully lift feet to perform the prostrations.

On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at 9:47 AM Kim Hetzel  wrote:

> I have a pair of Timberland cycling shoes for sale. They are a size 10.5
> in black with a unique chain link patterned bottom sole. They are make of
> both leather and synthetic materials. They have had little use. I have
> taken very good care of them.  I have used Obenauf's HP leather conditioner
> on them.
>
> These are the most comfortable cycling shoes that I have ever worn. I love
> them dearly.  Unfortunately, I am unable to wear them anymore. I wore them
> three times riding on my Clem. The stiffness of the soles of these shoes
> agitates the inner and outer muscles of my left knee. I have had no problem
> with riding in my Merrell Moab Rover shoes prior.
>
> I do not remember how much I paid for these new. I know that one does not
> see these shoes very much anymore. They have been long gone out of
> production decades ago; late 1990's ?.
>
> Make me an offer.
>
> More photos upon request.
>
> Paypal payment
> Shipping in the CONUS only.
>
> Kim Hetzel
> Yelm, WA
>
>
>
>
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> 
> .
>


-- 

---
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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[RBW] Re: Dallas Texas Riv Riders Meet Up

[Philip Barrett]

Sorry I missed you guys, definitely a Platypus sized hole in those picture!

On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 3:10:28 PM UTC-5 Paul in Dallas wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Four area Rivendell owner / riders finally synched up our schedules this 
> Sunday morning to ride together.
>
> Jim and Jim were on their Roadini's.
> Luis rode his Homer Hilsen.
>
> I, (Paul) rode my Sam Hillborne.
>
> We got in 27 and 30 miles depending on our routes to White Rock Lake 
> before heat/heat index got too brutal.
>
> It pays to start early during Texas summers as mid afternoon heat can get 
> to you and be dangerous.
>
> It was great to ride together.
>
> Hopefully next meet up Philip can join us on his Platypus soon
>
> Paul in Dallas 
>

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Re: [RBW] Plush old 531 steel frames (was being precious)

[JohnS]

Thank you Eric,

JohnS

On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 11:14:27 AM UTC-4 campyo...@me.com wrote:

> The mount I added to the Singer is this one:
>
> [image: 
> 3198yXsC3ML._SR600,315_PIWhiteStrip,BottomLeft,0,35_PIStarRatingTHREEANDHALF,BottomLeft,360,-6_SR600,315_ZA321,445,290,400,400,AmazonEmberBold,12,4,0,0,5_SCLZZZ_FMpng_BG255,255,255.jpg]
>
> Elite 0123301 VIP Cage Clamps Water Bottle Cage, 25mm-70mm, Black 
> 
> amazon.com 
> 
>
> 
>
> It’s been solid and dependable. The device adds mounting points—you 
> provide the bottle cage.
>
> --Eric Norris
> campyo...@me.com
> Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy
> YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 
>
> On Jun 24, 2023, at 9:16 AM, JohnS  wrote:
>
> Hello Eric N,
>
> Thanks for the close up of your bike. Because of it I noticed the clamped 
> on water bottle cage on the seat tube. Do you like? Which brand is it? I 
> would like to add a water bottle cage to my '82 Sequoia's down tube (Tange 
> Special Series Touring, Cro-Mo Double Butted), great riding bike, so much 
> more lively than my Surly Pacer.
>
> JohnS
>
> On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 11:57:10 PM UTC-4 campyo...@me.com wrote:
>
>> For the tubing nerds out there: the 531 Professional decal (in French) on 
>> my 1983 Alex Singer. 
>>
>> [image: image0.jpeg][image: image1.jpeg]
>>
>> –Eric N
>>
>>
>> On Jun 23, 2023, at 6:53 PM, brendonoid  wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> My late 80s Holdsworth Mistral is 531c (I assume that's the competition 
>> tubing?) And is the only frame I've ridden that has that "planing" feeling 
>> that Jan gets so hot under the collar for.
>> I have converted it to 650b and it is my go to roadish bike when I'm not 
>> on a Riv. Definitely a special frame.
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
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>>
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>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>>
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>  
> 
> .
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: [SFRandon] OT - recovered Rivendell Atlantis

[Adrianna T]

No, it was literally an Atlantis.Will keep an eye out. It is on bike index, one of the few rivendells that are posted there. -AdriannaOn Jun 25, 2023, at 7:53 AM, Sarah Carlson  wrote:Any news if this was your bike?On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 12:34:15 PM UTC-7 Adrianna T wrote:I am hoping this is my bike. Waiting to hear back!On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 8:28:56 AM UTC-7 Cyclofiend Jim wrote:Ha... you beat me to it. Thanks Eric.On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 8:22:46 AM UTC-7 campyo...@me.com wrote:Forwarding from another email list … 
--Eric Norriscampyo...@me.comInsta: @CampyOnlyGuyYouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 


Begin forwarded message:From: Eric Larsen Subject: [SFRandon] OT - recovered Rivendell AtlantisDate: June 22, 2023 at 7:36:25 AM PDTTo: San Francisco Randonneurs Reply-To: ciren...@gmail.comIf you know anyone who had a Rivendell Atlantis stolen from them, please have them contact me off list to identify.Eric

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[RBW] Re: FS: Timberland Cycling Shoes: size 10.5

[Kim Hetzel]

Here are some pictures:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/15d1b3d3pTjtWrhkNWDL-MhKmh-PQsAPE/view?usp=drive_web
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1E_F5GUgMKeORvVosXU3MQKR9bMjrTtFm/view?usp=drive_web
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fLWU3XloKsOTEOc3fsCQFdd7LtXA8RYZ/view?usp=drive_web
https://drive.google.com/file/d/166PXg7ID6f7s7RZrups50t8aQ49QWVMh/view?usp=drive_web
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vEvu3vS-JedS-orqdHFhTmrmUX5_FL6m/view?usp=drive_web

Kim Hetzel
Yelm, WA.
On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 9:10:49 AM UTC-7 Kim Hetzel wrote:

> I have a pair of Timberland cycling shoes for sale near excellent 
> condition. They are a size 10.5 in black with a unique chain link patterned 
> bottom sole. They are make of both leather and synthetic materials. They 
> have had little use. I have taken very good care of them.  I have used 
> Obenauf's HP leather conditioner on them.
>
> These are the most comfortable cycling shoes that I have ever worn. I love 
> them dearly.  Unfortunately, I am unable to wear them anymore. I wore them 
> three times riding on my Clem. The stiffness of the soles of these shoes 
> agitates the inner and outer muscles of my left knee. I have had no problem 
> with riding in my Merrell Moab Rover shoes prior.
>
> I do not remember how much I paid for these new. I know that one does not 
> see these shoes very much anymore. They have been long gone out of 
> production decades ago; late 1990's ?
>
> Make me an offer.
>
>  Photos upon request.
>
> Paypal payment
> Shipping in the CONUS only.
> Exact shipping cost will be determined at the time of shipping.
>
> Kim Hetzel
> Yelm, WA
>
>
>
>
>
>

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[RBW] FS: Timberland Cycling Shoes: size 10.5

[Kim Hetzel]

I have a pair of Timberland cycling shoes for sale near excellent 
condition. They are a size 10.5 in black with a unique chain link patterned 
bottom sole. They are make of both leather and synthetic materials. They 
have had little use. I have taken very good care of them.  I have used 
Obenauf's HP leather conditioner on them.

These are the most comfortable cycling shoes that I have ever worn. I love 
them dearly.  Unfortunately, I am unable to wear them anymore. I wore them 
three times riding on my Clem. The stiffness of the soles of these shoes 
agitates the inner and outer muscles of my left knee. I have had no problem 
with riding in my Merrell Moab Rover shoes prior.

I do not remember how much I paid for these new. I know that one does not 
see these shoes very much anymore. They have been long gone out of 
production decades ago; late 1990's ?

Make me an offer.

 Photos upon request.

Paypal payment
Shipping in the CONUS only.
Exact shipping cost will be determined at the time of shipping.

Kim Hetzel
Yelm, WA





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Re: [RBW] Plush old 531 steel frames (was being precious)

['Eric Norris' via RBW Owners Bunch]

The mount I added to the Singer is this one:

https://www.amazon.com/Elite-0123301-Clamps-Bottle-25mm-70mm/dp/B00OS6HKIM/ref=asc_df_B00OS6HKIM/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=241987970787&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=8490519446908074857&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1014208&hvtargid=pla-355337713622&psc=1
Elite 0123301 VIP Cage Clamps Water Bottle Cage, 25mm-70mm, Black
amazon.com

It’s been solid and dependable. The device adds mounting points—you provide the 
bottle cage.

--Eric Norris
campyonly...@me.com
Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy
YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 

> On Jun 24, 2023, at 9:16 AM, JohnS  wrote:
> 
> Hello Eric N,
> 
> Thanks for the close up of your bike. Because of it I noticed the clamped on 
> water bottle cage on the seat tube. Do you like? Which brand is it? I would 
> like to add a water bottle cage to my '82 Sequoia's down tube (Tange Special 
> Series Touring, Cro-Mo Double Butted), great riding bike, so much more lively 
> than my Surly Pacer.
> 
> JohnS
> 
> On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 11:57:10 PM UTC-4 campyo...@me.com wrote:
>> For the tubing nerds out there: the 531 Professional decal (in French) on my 
>> 1983 Alex Singer. 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> –Eric N
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jun 23, 2023, at 6:53 PM, brendonoid > wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> My late 80s Holdsworth Mistral is 531c (I assume that's the competition 
>>> tubing?) And is the only frame I've ridden that has that "planing" feeling 
>>> that Jan gets so hot under the collar for.
>>> I have converted it to 650b and it is my go to roadish bike when I'm not on 
>>> a Riv. Definitely a special frame.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com <>.
>> 
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/ecb96a83-26c1-441a-b476-5ebd91747717n%40googlegroups.com
>>>  
>>> .
> 
> 
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>  
> .

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[RBW] Re: [SFRandon] OT - recovered Rivendell Atlantis

[Sarah Carlson]

Any news if this was your bike?


On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 12:34:15 PM UTC-7 Adrianna T wrote:

> I am hoping this is my bike. Waiting to hear back!
>
> On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 8:28:56 AM UTC-7 Cyclofiend Jim wrote:
>
>> Ha... you beat me to it. 
>> Thanks Eric.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, June 22, 2023 at 8:22:46 AM UTC-7 campyo...@me.com wrote:
>>
>>> Forwarding from another email list … 
>>>
>>> --Eric Norris
>>> campyo...@me.com
>>> Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy
>>> YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 
>>>
>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>
>>> *From: *Eric Larsen 
>>> *Subject: **[SFRandon] OT - recovered Rivendell Atlantis*
>>> *Date: *June 22, 2023 at 7:36:25 AM PDT
>>> *To: *San Francisco Randonneurs 
>>> *Reply-To: *ciren...@gmail.com
>>>
>>> If you know anyone who had a Rivendell Atlantis stolen from them, please 
>>> have them contact me off list to identify.
>>> Eric
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> -- 
>>> This message is from the San Francisco Randonneurs list at 
>>> sfra...@googlegroups.com
>>> Search the archives at http://groups.google.com/group/sfrandon
>>> For SFR's schedule and general information, visit 
>>> http://sfrandonneurs.org/
>>> To unsubscribe, email sfrandon+u...@googlegroups.com
>>> --- 
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>>> Groups "San Francisco Randonneurs" group.
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[RBW] Re: Homer Sizing Question

[Bones]

My PBH is 91.5. I bought a 61.5 Homer based on Riv recommended sizing but 
it never felt great with drops. It's just too long. I also have 61 Roadini 
and it fits great with drops, and when I compared that with the newer 58 
Homer, I found that the reach was actually very similar. The Homer just has 
a little less stack, which isn't a problem for me. So I downsized to the 58 
(the gold color pushed me over the edge) and have been very happy with the 
fit. There is a little more seat post showing than I am accustomed to but 
it looks fine. I have 62 Romanceur as well, which fits great, but I never 
ride it anymore. I will get around to moving both of those bikes along at 
some point. I vote 58.

Bones

On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 12:52:04 PM UTC-8 CoalTrain wrote:

> Thanks Bill. That's the conclusion I'm coming to as well.
>
> On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 3:29:38 PM UTC-5 Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
>> The numbers are there to run, but my expectation is that if you ran the 
>> numbers, you would find the 58 Homer would be closer to the XL Romanceur.  
>> The 58 Homer might even be a little bit "bigger" than the XL Romanceur, in 
>> pure Stack and Reach land.  
>>
>> Bill Lindsay
>> El Cerrito, CA
>>
>> On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 12:58:45 PM UTC-7 CoalTrain wrote:
>>
>>> I'm kicking around the idea of getting a Homer to go with my Platypus 
>>> and Romanceur. I have a PBH of roughly 90cm and probably go with a 61.5 or 
>>> 58. I would like the option to ride drops but am worried if I go 61.5 it 
>>> will be too big and if I go 58 it will be too small. I currently ride as my 
>>> road bike a XL Romanceur and it fits perfect; I could actually stretch out 
>>> a little if I had a longer stem then the 80 nitto I have on the Rom. Has 
>>> anybody else been in this situation? Did you go big and get drops to work?
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] 26.8 seatposts with generous setback

[Kim Hetzel]

Additional information to be added to my long torso, I have short limbs.

Kim Hetzel
Yelm, WA.

On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 4:25:23 PM UTC-7 Kim Hetzel wrote:

> Very well said, Laing. I absolutely agree with you.
>
> Kim Hetzel
> Yelm, WA 
>
> On Sat, Jun 24, 2023, 12:49 PM lconley  wrote:
>
>> Then there are also those with really, really long torsos, that need a 
>> long stem *and* lots of setback on the seatpost; or a custom frame.
>> Also remember that a Brooks saddle sometimes needs a longer setback 
>> seatpost to put you in the same location relative to the pedals as another 
>> type of saddle on a normal seatpost; no longer stem will help that.
>>
>> Laing 
>>
>> On Friday, June 23, 2023 at 3:22:38 PM UTC-4 Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>>> + another for Garth's point (and many others make it too, including PJW 
>>> in his very good article on bike fitting) that you first set up your saddle 
>>> in relation to the cranks in order to get both good "balance" (with 
>>> sufficient setback that your torso muscles support the torso's weight, and 
>>> so that this support is not left to hands and arms and shoulders), and good 
>>> power or torque on the pedals (too far forward and you lose power, IME -- 
>>> Grant cured me of an all-the-way forward saddle, long story, by saying, 
>>> "move your saddle back and down").
>>>
>>> And of course all rules are merely starting points.
>>>
>>> No setback seatposts make sense on a bike like this; you even see 
>>> seatposts with forward "setback" or perhaps "set-forward," but look at 
>>> those seat tube angles!
>>>
>>> [image: image.png]
>>>
>>> [image: image.png]
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 12:24 PM Richard Rose  wrote:
>>>
 Perhaps another bit of information to muddy the waters is the Analog 
 Cycles perspective that straight (no setback) seatposts make no sense, 
 except for frames (like theirs) that have relatively slack seat tubes. 
 Like 
 our Riv’s.

 Sent from my iPhone

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>>
>

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