Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about Riv bike sizing again?

[Belopsky]

I got fitted last Friday, modern measurements aside (bike fit kit, 
handlebar x/y), the Serotta size cycle put me on a 530mm c-c top tube, 
540mm c-c seat tube, with a 100mm or 110mm stem, depending on how high I 
want the bars or how 'aggressive' I want to ride, no big deal - I am plenty 
flexible to get into any position. The size cycle's seat tube was at 74* 
and head tube at around 72*, pretty standard.

If we consider the 110mm stem:

My Macho King has an ETT of 550mm, and I run a 90mm stem with 10* rise but 
feel a bit stretched out. An 80mm would be more comfortable, or a change in 
shifters or bars with less reach.
If the Macho King had a 530mm ETT, I could do the 110 stem, so this all 
makes sense.

Similarly with my other recent bikes with a ETT of 55-56, stems were in the 
85-90 range depending on steerer length, so I've been in the vicinity of 
what I was fitted to

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about Riv bike sizing again?

[Bill Lindsay]

I measure the effective top tube length.  When I bought the frame, I was 
aware that the geo-chart said 59, and Keven pointed out to me that it was 
really 57.5cm, which I measured and confirmed.  I don't know how many Sam's 
have a 59cm top tube and how many have a 57.5cm top tube.  


On Wednesday, October 19, 2016 at 2:54:18 PM UTC-7, Belopsky wrote:
>
> Mine is a green Hillborne, Taiwan built, with cantis. Will had told me it 
> is a 2012, but I dont know. BIll, are you measuring the 'effective' top 
> tube or the actual?
>
> On Wednesday, October 19, 2016 at 5:45:39 PM UTC-4, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>
>>  I believe those .65/.45/.65 wall thickness numbers for the Roadeo.  
>>
>> "planing" zealots dismiss the Roadeo as 'massively overbuilt' and 'far 
>> too stiff' because it features OS tubing in the top tube and the downtube. 
>>  The Roadeo top tube is 28.6mm in diameter, and planing zealots will assure 
>> you it should be 25.4mm.  The Roadeo downtube is 31.8mm in diameter, and 
>> planing zealots will assure you it should be 28.6mm.  
>>
>> If you believe it is impossible for a bicycle to be too flexible, then 
>> you might disapprove of the Roadeo.  If you believe (as Grant does) that it 
>> is possible for a bicycle to be too flexible, then the Roadeo might be 
>> worth consideration.  If you are avoiding a Roadeo because you want a steel 
>> frame and fork that is lighter weight, then you won't find a lot of weight 
>> savings.  Just a few ounces here and there.  
>>
>> Bill Lindsay
>> El Cerrito, CA
>>
>> P.S. Earlier in this thread Belopsky expressed shock that a geo chart 
>> said his Hillborne had a 59cm top tube.  Be aware that not every 56cm 
>> Hillborne had a 59cm top tube.  Mine has a 57.5cm top tube.  Mine was 
>> purchased in 12/2009.  Those that preceded mine had a 59cm top tube.  Riv 
>> tweaks numbers from time to time, and are sometimes reluctant to revise and 
>> revise geo charts, because earnest customers get themselves tied up in 
>> handwringing over the numbers at times.  
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about Riv bike sizing again?

[Belopsky]

I made that up, he never told me the year. It's the same color as the one 
on Lovely Bicycle from 2010, so my guess is this is 2009/2010, very 
possible its the 59 ett.


On Wednesday, October 19, 2016 at 5:54:18 PM UTC-4, Belopsky wrote:
>
> Mine is a green Hillborne, Taiwan built, with cantis. Will had told me it 
> is a 2012, but I dont know. BIll, are you measuring the 'effective' top 
> tube or the actual?
>
> On Wednesday, October 19, 2016 at 5:45:39 PM UTC-4, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>
>>  I believe those .65/.45/.65 wall thickness numbers for the Roadeo.  
>>
>> "planing" zealots dismiss the Roadeo as 'massively overbuilt' and 'far 
>> too stiff' because it features OS tubing in the top tube and the downtube. 
>>  The Roadeo top tube is 28.6mm in diameter, and planing zealots will assure 
>> you it should be 25.4mm.  The Roadeo downtube is 31.8mm in diameter, and 
>> planing zealots will assure you it should be 28.6mm.  
>>
>> If you believe it is impossible for a bicycle to be too flexible, then 
>> you might disapprove of the Roadeo.  If you believe (as Grant does) that it 
>> is possible for a bicycle to be too flexible, then the Roadeo might be 
>> worth consideration.  If you are avoiding a Roadeo because you want a steel 
>> frame and fork that is lighter weight, then you won't find a lot of weight 
>> savings.  Just a few ounces here and there.  
>>
>> Bill Lindsay
>> El Cerrito, CA
>>
>> P.S. Earlier in this thread Belopsky expressed shock that a geo chart 
>> said his Hillborne had a 59cm top tube.  Be aware that not every 56cm 
>> Hillborne had a 59cm top tube.  Mine has a 57.5cm top tube.  Mine was 
>> purchased in 12/2009.  Those that preceded mine had a 59cm top tube.  Riv 
>> tweaks numbers from time to time, and are sometimes reluctant to revise and 
>> revise geo charts, because earnest customers get themselves tied up in 
>> handwringing over the numbers at times.  
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about Riv bike sizing again?

[Belopsky]

Mine is a green Hillborne, Taiwan built, with cantis. Will had told me it 
is a 2012, but I dont know. BIll, are you measuring the 'effective' top 
tube or the actual?

On Wednesday, October 19, 2016 at 5:45:39 PM UTC-4, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
>  I believe those .65/.45/.65 wall thickness numbers for the Roadeo.  
>
> "planing" zealots dismiss the Roadeo as 'massively overbuilt' and 'far too 
> stiff' because it features OS tubing in the top tube and the downtube.  The 
> Roadeo top tube is 28.6mm in diameter, and planing zealots will assure you 
> it should be 25.4mm.  The Roadeo downtube is 31.8mm in diameter, and 
> planing zealots will assure you it should be 28.6mm.  
>
> If you believe it is impossible for a bicycle to be too flexible, then you 
> might disapprove of the Roadeo.  If you believe (as Grant does) that it is 
> possible for a bicycle to be too flexible, then the Roadeo might be worth 
> consideration.  If you are avoiding a Roadeo because you want a steel frame 
> and fork that is lighter weight, then you won't find a lot of weight 
> savings.  Just a few ounces here and there.  
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
> P.S. Earlier in this thread Belopsky expressed shock that a geo chart said 
> his Hillborne had a 59cm top tube.  Be aware that not every 56cm Hillborne 
> had a 59cm top tube.  Mine has a 57.5cm top tube.  Mine was purchased in 
> 12/2009.  Those that preceded mine had a 59cm top tube.  Riv tweaks numbers 
> from time to time, and are sometimes reluctant to revise and revise geo 
> charts, because earnest customers get themselves tied up in handwringing 
> over the numbers at times.  
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about Riv bike sizing again?

[Bill Lindsay]

 I believe those .65/.45/.65 wall thickness numbers for the Roadeo.  

"planing" zealots dismiss the Roadeo as 'massively overbuilt' and 'far too 
stiff' because it features OS tubing in the top tube and the downtube.  The 
Roadeo top tube is 28.6mm in diameter, and planing zealots will assure you 
it should be 25.4mm.  The Roadeo downtube is 31.8mm in diameter, and 
planing zealots will assure you it should be 28.6mm.  

If you believe it is impossible for a bicycle to be too flexible, then you 
might disapprove of the Roadeo.  If you believe (as Grant does) that it is 
possible for a bicycle to be too flexible, then the Roadeo might be worth 
consideration.  If you are avoiding a Roadeo because you want a steel frame 
and fork that is lighter weight, then you won't find a lot of weight 
savings.  Just a few ounces here and there.  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

P.S. Earlier in this thread Belopsky expressed shock that a geo chart said 
his Hillborne had a 59cm top tube.  Be aware that not every 56cm Hillborne 
had a 59cm top tube.  Mine has a 57.5cm top tube.  Mine was purchased in 
12/2009.  Those that preceded mine had a 59cm top tube.  Riv tweaks numbers 
from time to time, and are sometimes reluctant to revise and revise geo 
charts, because earnest customers get themselves tied up in handwringing 
over the numbers at times.  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about Riv bike sizing again?

[Patrick Moore]

I Googled "Roadeo Tubing Specs" or something and came up with a lotta
stuff, including the .65/.45/.65 entry. And that is odd, because I've been
told by thinwall tubing aficionados that the Roadeo is a tank. Sure,
.65/.45./.65 does not sound like a tank.

This is one conversation I found:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/rbw-owners-bunch/PeMsUasu4k8/kdyfQ994MVkJ

Please correct us if this is wrong!

On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 2:35 PM, Belopsky  wrote:

> Interesting, where did you see this? I dont know framebuilding but that is
> indeed thin?
>
> This is all still in elementary planning stages, but perhaps Columbus
> Spirit tubing, but I dont know more right now.
>
> On Wednesday, October 19, 2016 at 4:30:49 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> I'll be very interested to hear how this lightweight Roadeo develops. I
>> read that Roadeo tubing is .65/.45/.65 which seems pretty thin to me. What
>> tubing do you have in mind for your alternative?
>>
>> My dirt road Matthews has .8/.6/.8 tubing, like the Rams, I think --
>> certainly if feels less jarring over bumps, with identical wheels and
>> tires, than the Fargo it replaced.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 2:11 PM, Belopsky  wrote:
>>
>>> The Soma has a bit more post showing than I'd like, though it rides
>>> fine, but I want a more french fit. There's a custom builder near I was
>>> thinking of tasking with a Roadeo-like-bike, 700x35 w fenders, with much
>>> lighter tubing.
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>> Patrick Moore
>> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
>> 
>> 
>> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
>> circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and
>> individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>>
>> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the
>> world revolves.) *Carthusian motto
>>
>> *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart
>>
>> *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle
>>
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about Riv bike sizing again?

[Belopsky]

Interesting, where did you see this? I dont know framebuilding but that is 
indeed thin?

This is all still in elementary planning stages, but perhaps Columbus 
Spirit tubing, but I dont know more right now.

On Wednesday, October 19, 2016 at 4:30:49 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> I'll be very interested to hear how this lightweight Roadeo develops. I 
> read that Roadeo tubing is .65/.45/.65 which seems pretty thin to me. What 
> tubing do you have in mind for your alternative?
>
> My dirt road Matthews has .8/.6/.8 tubing, like the Rams, I think -- 
> certainly if feels less jarring over bumps, with identical wheels and 
> tires, than the Fargo it replaced.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 2:11 PM, Belopsky  > wrote:
>
>> The Soma has a bit more post showing than I'd like, though it rides fine, 
>> but I want a more french fit. There's a custom builder near I was thinking 
>> of tasking with a Roadeo-like-bike, 700x35 w fenders, with much lighter 
>> tubing. 
>>
>> -- 
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>> .
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>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
> Other professional writing services.
> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
> **
> **
> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
> circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and 
> individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>
> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the 
> world revolves.) *Carthusian motto
>
> *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart
>
> *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about Riv bike sizing again?

[Patrick Moore]

I'll be very interested to hear how this lightweight Roadeo develops. I
read that Roadeo tubing is .65/.45/.65 which seems pretty thin to me. What
tubing do you have in mind for your alternative?

My dirt road Matthews has .8/.6/.8 tubing, like the Rams, I think --
certainly if feels less jarring over bumps, with identical wheels and
tires, than the Fargo it replaced.





On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 2:11 PM, Belopsky  wrote:

> The Soma has a bit more post showing than I'd like, though it rides fine,
> but I want a more french fit. There's a custom builder near I was thinking
> of tasking with a Roadeo-like-bike, 700x35 w fenders, with much lighter
> tubing.
>
> --
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**
**
*The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and
individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu

*Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the
world revolves.) *Carthusian motto

*It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart

*Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about Riv bike sizing again?

[Belopsky]

The Soma has a bit more post showing than I'd like, though it rides fine, 
but I want a more french fit. There's a custom builder near I was thinking 
of tasking with a Roadeo-like-bike, 700x35 w fenders, with much lighter 
tubing. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about Riv bike sizing again?

[Eric Karnes]

Just out of curiosity, are you wondering all of this because you feel you 
might have purchased the wrong size?


Reason I'm asking is that I’ve found it's easy to go down the rabbit hole 
of achieving a 'perfect' geometry, top tube/stem ratio, aesthetic 
proportion, etc. Not to say these aren’t important things to consider, but 
I find the vast amount (and variety) of information on the interweb can 
play right into (overly) obsessive and constant questioning. Unfortunately 
I speak from experience. Sigh.


If you are comfortable on the San Marcos (or Hillborne) and you like the 
way it rides, then I'd say everything is working. And I wouldn't then worry 
about what an online fit calculator says. One size down from the 
recommended Riv size is most likely fine, and probably isn’t worth the 
significant expense of replacing with a new bike…at least not until you 
know for sure what you are looking for. Just ride it for a while, until you 
feel an itch to make an adjustment one way or another.


Just two cents from a (semi) reformed geometry obsessor.


Eric

On Wednesday, October 19, 2016 at 10:08:52 AM UTC-4, Belopsky wrote:
>
> The mystery continues for me..
>
> Found Riv's old geo chart (
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gfiN1kOxVrthdc6eScUF9fP5n-BvRBILbBMYiEg5LM4/edit#gid=0),
>  
> which just so happens to have the 51cm San Marcos I have and the 56cm Sam 
> Hillborne. Grant's sizing says a 54cm San Marcos would have worked well for 
> me, but I went with a 51 because I felt that 55 was a good length for a top 
> tube.
>
> I *thought* my Hillborne's top tube was 57, but actually the effective one 
> is 59! I do have Nitto Albatross on the Hillborne, but I find myself in a 
> more 'aggressive' position in them comfortable as well (hands in front of 
> levers).
>
> In looking at the geometry, the San Marcos and the Hillborne are very 
> similar, only difference, according to the chart, is the seat tube angle, 
> with the hillborne being 72 and the San Marcos 71.5
>
> So then I thought, why does my All City Macho King feel so long? Macho 
> King seat tube is 73 and the head tube is 71.5, the effective top tube is 
> 55.
>
> So OK, to get the same saddle to pedal position between the Hillborne and 
> Macho King, I simply move the Hillborne's seat about 1cm, which I did do. 
> The Hillborne is feeling pretty good. ~6-8mile daily commute so far and 
> it's fine. Might do a metric century on it this weekend (but not 'really' 
> because we will be stopping at cider mills, but I digress..)
>
> The Macho King certainly has a shorter top tube than the either two:
> San Marcos: 184
> Hillborne: 180?
> Macho King: 130
>
> Macho King does *not* have the bars at saddle height - perhaps that is 
> where I am running into issues then? I have a 90x10* stem on the Macho 
> King, and I really don't want to get a higher rise stem as those look odd 
> IMO - whereas long rise quill don't bother me.
>
> The one other thing is the Bottom Bracket drop: SM and Hillborne are 75, 
> whereas the Macho King is 70..
>
> So then I started to look at the Roadeo geometry, as that's ideally what I 
> would be getting as my 'roadie' bike - I may have a custom builder 
> re-create a similar bike for me, but seeing all this I am confused.
>
> I took the basic formula of PBH-27, which for me is 56, and that puts me 
> at either a 55 or a 57 Roadeo.
> The 55 has the same seat tube angle as the Macho King, 73. 57 has 72.5. 
> The head tube angle is 72.5 and 73, respectively. The top tube is 55.5 and 
> 56.5.
>
> Where it gets further confusing for me is that I took some measurements, 
> and plugged into Competitive Cyclist's page and looked at the Eddy and the 
> French fit.
>
> Eddy: Top Tube 54.7-55.1
> French: Top Tube 55.9-56.3
>
> Both fits say I should be running a pretty long stems (10.1cm), with the 
> French one being longer (up to 10.9cm) maybe because their calculator says 
> the french fit is a bigger frame, less reach since the top tube is higher 
> on the bike?)
>
> So now, I am confused if a 57 Roadeo would be good, the standover on a 57 
> would be lower than my Hillborne by about a 1cm, right now, if I'm 
> straddling the Hillborne, the tube is 'right there'. "In other words, 
> when you straddle your bike, your genitals may rest on the top tube, but 
> your pubic bone will easily clear it -- as you'll notice if you grab a 
> handful of genitals and pull up."
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about Riv bike sizing again?

[Lungimsam]

So I guess the long and short of it is that it is really difficult to 
understand how geometry and fit work together and it seems like there are many 
different schools of thought on this.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about Riv bike sizing again?

[Lungimsam]

I recently had my Bleriot fit mapped at Gravel and Grind by way of what is 
called an xy axis fit.

It was then transfered tomy Rambouillet.

The seat height and reach and bar height are different than the Bleriot  if you 
measure with a tape measure. But the fit is the same in relation to the xy axis 
on the two bikes. I am not sure what that is. I think it is the relation of 
saddle to bb and bars to floor. Not sure.

But I was told that trying to replicate one bikes fit by simply measuring the 
dimensions with a tape will not really get you the same fit because the tube 
angles and dimensions are different.

I had (by way of tape measure when I first did it at home) the fit the same in 
space, but it put everything up and forward on the Rambouillet. Though all the 
reach and fore and aft and bar height and seat height measurements were the 
same as the Bleriot on a tape measure.

The xy fit is done with lasers and I think measures the fit relative to bb.

Anyway. The fit probs I was having on the Rambouillet are now gone and the bike 
is now just as comfortable as the Bleriot to ride.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about Riv bike sizing again?

[Belopsky]

The mystery continues for me..

Found Riv's old geo chart 
(https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gfiN1kOxVrthdc6eScUF9fP5n-BvRBILbBMYiEg5LM4/edit#gid=0),
 
which just so happens to have the 51cm San Marcos I have and the 56cm Sam 
Hillborne. Grant's sizing says a 54cm San Marcos would have worked well for 
me, but I went with a 51 because I felt that 55 was a good length for a top 
tube.

I *thought* my Hillborne's top tube was 57, but actually the effective one 
is 59! I do have Nitto Albatross on the Hillborne, but I find myself in a 
more 'aggressive' position in them comfortable as well (hands in front of 
levers).

In looking at the geometry, the San Marcos and the Hillborne are very 
similar, only difference, according to the chart, is the seat tube angle, 
with the hillborne being 72 and the San Marcos 71.5

So then I thought, why does my All City Macho King feel so long? Macho King 
seat tube is 73 and the head tube is 71.5, the effective top tube is 55.

So OK, to get the same saddle to pedal position between the Hillborne and 
Macho King, I simply move the Hillborne's seat about 1cm, which I did do. 
The Hillborne is feeling pretty good. ~6-8mile daily commute so far and 
it's fine. Might do a metric century on it this weekend (but not 'really' 
because we will be stopping at cider mills, but I digress..)

The Macho King certainly has a shorter top tube than the either two:
San Marcos: 184
Hillborne: 180?
Macho King: 130

Macho King does *not* have the bars at saddle height - perhaps that is 
where I am running into issues then? I have a 90x10* stem on the Macho 
King, and I really don't want to get a higher rise stem as those look odd 
IMO - whereas long rise quill don't bother me.

The one other thing is the Bottom Bracket drop: SM and Hillborne are 75, 
whereas the Macho King is 70..

So then I started to look at the Roadeo geometry, as that's ideally what I 
would be getting as my 'roadie' bike - I may have a custom builder 
re-create a similar bike for me, but seeing all this I am confused.

I took the basic formula of PBH-27, which for me is 56, and that puts me at 
either a 55 or a 57 Roadeo.
The 55 has the same seat tube angle as the Macho King, 73. 57 has 72.5. The 
head tube angle is 72.5 and 73, respectively. The top tube is 55.5 and 56.5.

Where it gets further confusing for me is that I took some measurements, 
and plugged into Competitive Cyclist's page and looked at the Eddy and the 
French fit.

Eddy: Top Tube 54.7-55.1
French: Top Tube 55.9-56.3

Both fits say I should be running a pretty long stems (10.1cm), with the 
French one being longer (up to 10.9cm) maybe because their calculator says 
the french fit is a bigger frame, less reach since the top tube is higher 
on the bike?)

So now, I am confused if a 57 Roadeo would be good, the standover on a 57 
would be lower than my Hillborne by about a 1cm, right now, if I'm 
straddling the Hillborne, the tube is 'right there'. "In other words, when 
you straddle your bike, your genitals may rest on the top tube, but your 
pubic bone will easily clear it -- as you'll notice if you grab a handful 
of genitals and pull up."

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Re: [RBW] Re: Can we talk about Riv bike sizing again?

[Patrick Moore]

+1 for PJW's fitting article.

Aside, tangential but at least remotely related: As I've been putting the
miles on the Matthews (pushing 300 miles -- delivered in March, long layoff
in the summer) I've been of course refining the setup, and one rather large
change has been the descent of the bar from about 1.5" above saddle to
about 1/4" below; just removed the very last 5 mm spacer from the steerer
on Friday.

The bike felt fine with higher bar when I was on the hoods or in the hooks,
but the ramps and flats, where I spend much time when riding dirt*, felt
high and awkward. Now the setup feels just right, with the bar some 2 cm
higher than on my road bikes, but with a 1 cm longer -- 9 cm -- stem and
slightly wider -- 42 versus 37 cm -- Maes Parallels. In fact, it feels so
good that my road bikes' bars may just eventually migrate upward to match
(tho' I'd have to replace the stems).

* Because of this, I am debating whether to leave or to remove the
interrupter levers. I've positioned them outward on the flat, so that I can
grab them easily under the bar when my hands are on the ramps or the curve
transitioning from flat to ramp.

On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 6:08 AM, Howard Ramsay  wrote:

> Here is a tip: When sharing a bike I have my own seat post with my own
> saddle mounted. Takes 30 seconds to swap out.
> Great article with Fitting guidelines from Peter White here: http://www.
> peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.htm
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about Riv bike sizing again?

[Howard Ramsay]

Here is a tip: When sharing a bike I have my own seat post with my own 
saddle mounted. Takes 30 seconds to swap out.
Great article with Fitting guidelines from Peter White 
here: http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.htm

On Monday, October 10, 2016 at 10:43:54 AM UTC-5, Belopsky wrote:
>
> In the last half a year, I've gotten a lot more serious about riding, been 
> through a lot of bikes, and just finally seem to be getting down to a fit I 
> am liking, and once again thinking about stem lengths and top tubes and etc.
>
> In my current garage I have:
>
> Soma San Marcos, 51cm
> Rivendell Sam Hillborne, 55cm
> All-City Macho King, 52cm
> Cheviot (yet-to-be-finished-and-ridden), 50cm
>
> The Cheviot may be shared between myself and my partner. She's 5'2. I am 
> 5'7. At worst I will have more seatpost showing/bars a bit higher.
>
>
> The Rivendell has an effective top tube (ett) of 570mm. I have a very long 
> stem on it with Albatross bars - I had a Hillborne before, with drop bars, 
> and it felt too big with drops for me, but with the upright bars, all is 
> fine. Fistful of seatpost showing.
>
> My San Marcos feels real good too, not many miles yet, but fits like what 
> I've been riding... ett of 550mm, bars at saddle height, stem seems to be a 
> 90mm or something like that, 44cm drop bars.. perhaps Philip knows what 
> length he sold it with..
>
> My All City is my 'go-fast' bike, 853 steel frame with a carbon fork, bars 
> are lower than seat, and that's how I want this bike set. The 52cm frame 
> size actually measures ett 550, a bit more aggressive than the other bike 
> but not much. 90mm stem with 10* rise.
>
>
> PBH: 83.x. SH: ~ 71.4
>
> Riv sizing talks about me riding 55-57cm depending on the frame, but I 
> always worry that the top tube is too long. Anywho, I was under the 
> impression that for a 'fast' bike you want a slightly longer stem, for more 
> weight in the front..but also with bars at seat height I suppose I can ride 
> a bigger frame with a shorter stem - how short is too short, with drop bars 
> - anything can work with some pullback.
>
>
> Any others my size/pbh/sh that can comment?
>

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about Riv bike sizing again?

[masmojo]

The other thing to keep in mind is that the Hunqapillar is more offroad 
oriented and typically you need to allow yourself a little more standover 
because you are more likely to be stopping on uneven surfaces or pedaling and 
moving around while standing on the pedals.

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about Riv bike sizing again?

[Belopsky]

That's because the Hunq is much oversized. Check the geometry chart - the 
ett on the 51 is ~57.5

On Friday, October 14, 2016 at 2:01:08 AM UTC-4, Max Bergen wrote:
>
> FWIW, I've been working with Roman to place an order for a Hunq. 
>
> My PBH is 83.25 and he suggests either the 51cm for 2015 model or 50cm for 
> 2016 model. 
>
> Both those are smaller than any bike I've ridden in the past, but I trust 
> their product knowledge and experience  :) 
>
> On Monday, October 10, 2016 at 11:43:54 AM UTC-4, Belopsky wrote:
>>
>> In the last half a year, I've gotten a lot more serious about riding, 
>> been through a lot of bikes, and just finally seem to be getting down to a 
>> fit I am liking, and once again thinking about stem lengths and top tubes 
>> and etc.
>>
>> In my current garage I have:
>>
>> Soma San Marcos, 51cm
>> Rivendell Sam Hillborne, 55cm
>> All-City Macho King, 52cm
>> Cheviot (yet-to-be-finished-and-ridden), 50cm
>>
>> The Cheviot may be shared between myself and my partner. She's 5'2. I am 
>> 5'7. At worst I will have more seatpost showing/bars a bit higher.
>>
>>
>> The Rivendell has an effective top tube (ett) of 570mm. I have a very 
>> long stem on it with Albatross bars - I had a Hillborne before, with drop 
>> bars, and it felt too big with drops for me, but with the upright bars, all 
>> is fine. Fistful of seatpost showing.
>>
>> My San Marcos feels real good too, not many miles yet, but fits like what 
>> I've been riding... ett of 550mm, bars at saddle height, stem seems to be a 
>> 90mm or something like that, 44cm drop bars.. perhaps Philip knows what 
>> length he sold it with..
>>
>> My All City is my 'go-fast' bike, 853 steel frame with a carbon fork, 
>> bars are lower than seat, and that's how I want this bike set. The 52cm 
>> frame size actually measures ett 550, a bit more aggressive than the other 
>> bike but not much. 90mm stem with 10* rise.
>>
>>
>> PBH: 83.x. SH: ~ 71.4
>>
>> Riv sizing talks about me riding 55-57cm depending on the frame, but I 
>> always worry that the top tube is too long. Anywho, I was under the 
>> impression that for a 'fast' bike you want a slightly longer stem, for more 
>> weight in the front..but also with bars at seat height I suppose I can ride 
>> a bigger frame with a shorter stem - how short is too short, with drop bars 
>> - anything can work with some pullback.
>>
>>
>> Any others my size/pbh/sh that can comment?
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about Riv bike sizing again?

[Max Bergen]

FWIW, I've been working with Roman to place an order for a Hunq. 

My PBH is 83.25 and he suggests either the 51cm for 2015 model or 50cm for 
2016 model. 

Both those are smaller than any bike I've ridden in the past, but I trust 
their product knowledge and experience  :) 

On Monday, October 10, 2016 at 11:43:54 AM UTC-4, Belopsky wrote:
>
> In the last half a year, I've gotten a lot more serious about riding, been 
> through a lot of bikes, and just finally seem to be getting down to a fit I 
> am liking, and once again thinking about stem lengths and top tubes and etc.
>
> In my current garage I have:
>
> Soma San Marcos, 51cm
> Rivendell Sam Hillborne, 55cm
> All-City Macho King, 52cm
> Cheviot (yet-to-be-finished-and-ridden), 50cm
>
> The Cheviot may be shared between myself and my partner. She's 5'2. I am 
> 5'7. At worst I will have more seatpost showing/bars a bit higher.
>
>
> The Rivendell has an effective top tube (ett) of 570mm. I have a very long 
> stem on it with Albatross bars - I had a Hillborne before, with drop bars, 
> and it felt too big with drops for me, but with the upright bars, all is 
> fine. Fistful of seatpost showing.
>
> My San Marcos feels real good too, not many miles yet, but fits like what 
> I've been riding... ett of 550mm, bars at saddle height, stem seems to be a 
> 90mm or something like that, 44cm drop bars.. perhaps Philip knows what 
> length he sold it with..
>
> My All City is my 'go-fast' bike, 853 steel frame with a carbon fork, bars 
> are lower than seat, and that's how I want this bike set. The 52cm frame 
> size actually measures ett 550, a bit more aggressive than the other bike 
> but not much. 90mm stem with 10* rise.
>
>
> PBH: 83.x. SH: ~ 71.4
>
> Riv sizing talks about me riding 55-57cm depending on the frame, but I 
> always worry that the top tube is too long. Anywho, I was under the 
> impression that for a 'fast' bike you want a slightly longer stem, for more 
> weight in the front..but also with bars at seat height I suppose I can ride 
> a bigger frame with a shorter stem - how short is too short, with drop bars 
> - anything can work with some pullback.
>
>
> Any others my size/pbh/sh that can comment?
>

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about Riv bike sizing again?

[Belopsky]

Also the 'reach' on the San Marcos is 356mm but the All City is 377.9mm, 
21.9mm difference, and the San Marcos has 1.5* slacker seat tube ... so to 
recreate the same seat to pedal position I could move the seat forward as 
compared to my All City, but then it sounds like I will be a lot closer to 
the controls, a lot more upright? This seem right?

On Monday, October 10, 2016 at 11:43:54 AM UTC-4, Belopsky wrote:
>
> In the last half a year, I've gotten a lot more serious about riding, been 
> through a lot of bikes, and just finally seem to be getting down to a fit I 
> am liking, and once again thinking about stem lengths and top tubes and etc.
>
> In my current garage I have:
>
> Soma San Marcos, 51cm
> Rivendell Sam Hillborne, 55cm
> All-City Macho King, 52cm
> Cheviot (yet-to-be-finished-and-ridden), 50cm
>
> The Cheviot may be shared between myself and my partner. She's 5'2. I am 
> 5'7. At worst I will have more seatpost showing/bars a bit higher.
>
>
> The Rivendell has an effective top tube (ett) of 570mm. I have a very long 
> stem on it with Albatross bars - I had a Hillborne before, with drop bars, 
> and it felt too big with drops for me, but with the upright bars, all is 
> fine. Fistful of seatpost showing.
>
> My San Marcos feels real good too, not many miles yet, but fits like what 
> I've been riding... ett of 550mm, bars at saddle height, stem seems to be a 
> 90mm or something like that, 44cm drop bars.. perhaps Philip knows what 
> length he sold it with..
>
> My All City is my 'go-fast' bike, 853 steel frame with a carbon fork, bars 
> are lower than seat, and that's how I want this bike set. The 52cm frame 
> size actually measures ett 550, a bit more aggressive than the other bike 
> but not much. 90mm stem with 10* rise.
>
>
> PBH: 83.x. SH: ~ 71.4
>
> Riv sizing talks about me riding 55-57cm depending on the frame, but I 
> always worry that the top tube is too long. Anywho, I was under the 
> impression that for a 'fast' bike you want a slightly longer stem, for more 
> weight in the front..but also with bars at seat height I suppose I can ride 
> a bigger frame with a shorter stem - how short is too short, with drop bars 
> - anything can work with some pullback.
>
>
> Any others my size/pbh/sh that can comment?
>

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about Riv bike sizing again?

[Matt B.]

On Monday, October 10, 2016 at 1:09:25 PM UTC-4, masmojo wrote:
>
> I've found from experience not to even go by frame size it can vary so 
> much depending in wheel size, frame design, BB drop, etc.
> I go strictly by standover height & then I decide how long a top tube I 
> will need based on, how I intend to set up/ride the bike.
> Keven measured my PBH @ 82 when I was out there last year, but I feel like 
> it hardly matters because I know from experience that a standover of 77 is 
> about optimal for me, any more then that and my boys start contacting the 
> top tube a little more then is comfortable.
> Ideally, I think you should be able to stand flat-footed on the bike 
> without hurting yourself.


That's the opposite of me, I go by reach/stack/STA only, and standover 
height is a useless data point for the way I ride.  On road of offroad, 
even singletrack, I'm never standing over the top tube with both feet on 
the ground.  The top tube could be higher than my pbh and it doesn't 
matter.  Everybody's different.
 

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about Riv bike sizing again?

[Belopsky]

Coincidently, 

'In other words, when you straddle your bike, your genitals may rest on the 
top tube, but your pubic bone will easily clear it -- as you'll notice if 
you grab a handful of genitals and pull up.' is how the Hillborne fits me. 

The question I ponder, for the sake of pondering, is will the bike feel 
comfortable for me with a 80mm stem with drop bars and bars at saddle 
height (as compared to my All-City with a 90mm,10* threadless stem).

On Monday, October 10, 2016 at 1:09:25 PM UTC-4, masmojo wrote:
>
> I've found from experience not to even go by frame size it can vary so 
> much depending in wheel size, frame design, BB drop, etc.
> I go strictly by standover height & then I decide how long a top tube I 
> will need based on, how I intend to set up/ride the bike.
> Keven measured my PBH @ 82 when I was out there last year, but I feel like 
> it hardly matters because I know from experience that a standover of 77 is 
> about optimal for me, any more then that and my boys start contacting the 
> top tube a little more then is comfortable.
> Ideally, I think you should be able to stand flat-footed on the bike 
> without hurting yourself.

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[RBW] Re: Can we talk about Riv bike sizing again?

[Belopsky]

Bo,
So it sounds like perhaps my +3cm PBH would make the 56cm fit for me - 
comparing a geo chart between the 54 and 56, the difference is 1cm top 
tube, which means 5mm difference in a stem if length is the issue (given 
that I seem to fit a 555mm top tube fine)

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