Re: [RBW] Re: chain line and the Quickbeam

[Cyclofiend Jim]

I used a bb lockring on the Suzue hub freewheel threading to make it more 
difficult for a fixed sprocket to back itself off.   Worked fine.  

But, I was still using the rim brakes rather than engaging in high-pressure 
backpedaling to stop.

Since switched to a Phil which is fixed/free and now use a standard fixed 
lockring setup.

- Jim / cyclofiend.com

On Sunday, October 26, 2014 8:20:21 AM UTC-7, Pudge wrote:
>
>  I believe Riv used a BB lockring to hold the fixed cog tight on one side 
> of the free/free Suzue hub on my Quickbeam – I don’t think I’ve ever 
> actually focused on it, but that’s what they said way back then.
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: chain line and the Quickbeam

[JL]

Thanks for the tip guys.  After reading this I today set my 'beam up with spare 
parts. I now have a 42x22 fixed/free flip flop.

Jason Leach
SF, CA



> On Oct 26, 2014, at 7:19 PM, Kainalu  wrote:
> 
> Suzue! And I said Suzie, don't even know what I'm rolling... Thanks for the 
> great chain tricks and fixed opportunity right in front of my nose.
> 
> Suzie being the name of my first pup
> -Kai
> 
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[RBW] Re: chain line and the Quickbeam

[Kainalu]

Suzue! And I said Suzie, don't even know what I'm rolling... Thanks for the 
great chain tricks and fixed opportunity right in front of my nose.

Suzie being the name of my first pup
-Kai

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[RBW] Re: chain line and the Quickbeam

[Philip Williamson]

I've always been lucky with chainlines. "Oh, cool, that worked." Or else I just 
don't get into it unles I have a problem, and haven't had any problems. I'm 
still on the QB's original BB.

I've also happily run fixed for years and years without lockrings, but I may 
have been lucky there, too. I use the Chaingang Rotafixa method of binding the 
chain on the bottom bracket shell and using the back wheel as a lever to mount 
the cog or crack it loose.

I just started riding the Quickbeam with a freewheel, which is fun, and 
different. I've had to resist the temptation to flip back to fixed, though, 
since I want to really give it a good try. I would like a WI double FW, but so 
far the 17t is working fine. 
36/44 x 17 freewheel
36/44 x 17/21 fixed.

Philip
www.biketinker.com

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RE: [RBW] Re: chain line and the Quickbeam

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

I believe Riv used a BB lockring to hold the fixed cog tight on one side of the 
free/free Suzue hub on my Quickbeam – I don’t think I’ve ever actually focused 
on it, but that’s what they said way back then.

From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of David Banzer
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2014 11:16 AM
To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
Subject: [RBW] Re: chain line and the Quickbeam

You can use the rotafix method to install and remove fixed cogs without the 
need for a chainwhip. It uses the wheel as leverage which gets far more torque 
than a chainwhip. I've used this method to setup fixed gears for myself on a 
regular freewheel threading and have never had a cog come loose. I don't skid 
stop but I do resist pedaling to slow down.
http://www.urbanvelo.org/issue11/urbanvelo11_p76-77.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qIVEpyelP0
David
Chicago


On Sunday, October 26, 2014 9:48:55 AM UTC-5, Kainalu wrote:
That makes sense, you could use another cog on there as a lockring of sorts, 
and if you carried a chainwhip you could swap your fixed set. Or I suppose you 
could use your crank and chain as a chainwhip just as easily by using a stick 
to brake the crank. There must be a thread around here somewhere that touches 
on all the details of this, that maybe able to dispel all the myths I'm able to 
cook up in my head regarding simple and cheap two geared fixed gears with a 
third as lockring and superfluous 3rd option...
freewheeling 13 until then I think
-Kai

On Sunday, October 26, 2014 9:11:17 AM UTC-4, Deacon Patrick wrote:
It's free/free, and I have a 22t free on the flip side. I was told I could put 
on a fixed gear and it would work fine so long as I didn't do aggressive 
backpedaling to brake (since I have brakes) -- so that's my plan for "someday" 
when I try it out. But I definitely like having the freewheel for single track, 
dodging rocks and roots and steep trough-trail sections.

With abandon,
Patrick
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[RBW] Re: chain line and the Quickbeam

[David Banzer]

You can use the rotafix method to install and remove fixed cogs without the 
need for a chainwhip. It uses the wheel as leverage which gets far more 
torque than a chainwhip. I've used this method to setup fixed gears for 
myself on a regular freewheel threading and have never had a cog come 
loose. I don't skid stop but I do resist pedaling to slow down.
http://www.urbanvelo.org/issue11/urbanvelo11_p76-77.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qIVEpyelP0
David
Chicago


On Sunday, October 26, 2014 9:48:55 AM UTC-5, Kainalu wrote:
>
> That makes sense, you could use another cog on there as a lockring of 
> sorts, and if you carried a chainwhip you could swap your fixed set. Or I 
> suppose you could use your crank and chain as a chainwhip just as easily by 
> using a stick to brake the crank. There must be a thread around here 
> somewhere that touches on all the details of this, that maybe able to 
> dispel all the myths I'm able to cook up in my head regarding simple and 
> cheap two geared fixed gears with a third as lockring and superfluous 3rd 
> option...
> freewheeling 13 until then I think
> -Kai
>
> On Sunday, October 26, 2014 9:11:17 AM UTC-4, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>>
>> It's free/free, and I have a 22t free on the flip side. I was told I 
>> could put on a fixed gear and it would work fine so long as I didn't do 
>> aggressive backpedaling to brake (since I have brakes) -- so that's my plan 
>> for "someday" when I try it out. But I definitely like having the freewheel 
>> for single track, dodging rocks and roots and steep trough-trail sections.
>>
>> With abandon,
>> Patrick
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: chain line and the Quickbeam

[Kainalu]

That makes sense, you could use another cog on there as a lockring of 
sorts, and if you carried a chainwhip you could swap your fixed set. Or I 
suppose you could use your crank and chain as a chainwhip just as easily by 
using a stick to brake the crank. There must be a thread around here 
somewhere that touches on all the details of this, that maybe able to 
dispel all the myths I'm able to cook up in my head regarding simple and 
cheap two geared fixed gears with a third as lockring and superfluous 3rd 
option...
freewheeling 13 until then I think
-Kai

On Sunday, October 26, 2014 9:11:17 AM UTC-4, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> It's free/free, and I have a 22t free on the flip side. I was told I could 
> put on a fixed gear and it would work fine so long as I didn't do 
> aggressive backpedaling to brake (since I have brakes) -- so that's my plan 
> for "someday" when I try it out. But I definitely like having the freewheel 
> for single track, dodging rocks and roots and steep trough-trail sections.
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>

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[RBW] Re: chain line and the Quickbeam

[Deacon Patrick]

It's free/free, and I have a 22t free on the flip side. I was told I could 
put on a fixed gear and it would work fine so long as I didn't do 
aggressive backpedaling to brake (since I have brakes) -- so that's my plan 
for "someday" when I try it out. But I definitely like having the freewheel 
for single track, dodging rocks and roots and steep trough-trail sections.

With abandon,
Patrick

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[RBW] Re: chain line and the Quickbeam

[Kainalu]

Well worth the effort then, and you're never at a loss for torque. The Phil hub 
is freewheel/fixed? Or freewheel/freewheel? I was thinking fixed would be fun 
in the snow and ice but the suzie's lacking the fixed locking side. Might have 
to find a relatively cheap fixie rear wheel to try it out, which are 
fortunately never in short supply here in Brooklyn. 
Much obliged
-Kai

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[RBW] Re: chain line and the Quickbeam

[Deacon Patrick]

Rear hub is Phil, allen lugs.

With abandon,
Patrick

On Saturday, October 25, 2014 6:11:28 PM UTC-6, Kainalu wrote:
>
> Thanks Patrick, 
> I knew you'd have the answer, and with wild abandon. And I'm glad we're 
> gearing buddies, mountain gearing's what I'm after. If I can coax it out of 
> the dropout I might stick something racier on the other side for 
> downhillin. You said something about Allen wrench gear shifts before, what 
> hub are you running? Non quick release? 
> Thanks again
> -Kai

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[RBW] Re: chain line and the Quickbeam

[Kainalu]

Thanks Patrick, 
I knew you'd have the answer, and with wild abandon. And I'm glad we're gearing 
buddies, mountain gearing's what I'm after. If I can coax it out of the dropout 
I might stick something racier on the other side for downhillin. You said 
something about Allen wrench gear shifts before, what hub are you running? Non 
quick release? 
Thanks again
-Kai

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[RBW] Re: chain line and the Quickbeam

[Deacon Patrick]

Mine is a 113, as it came standard from Rivendell, and I have the same 
gearing set-up you describe. My chainlink is smooth in both high and low 
gears. I don't cross chain, so can't speak to that, but expect it would 
work since the others do.

With abandon,
Patrick

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[RBW] Re: chain line

[Jay in Tel Aviv]

Good to know, thanks.
I tried measuring, but I'm not too confident in my plastic ruler and less 
than perfect eyeballing skills. Best I could tell its ~46 mm from the 
middle of the seat tube to the inner face of the middle chain ring. I'm 
sure it'll be fine.
 
Jay

On Thursday, June 26, 2014 1:21:52 AM UTC+3, blakcloud wrote:

> The chainline will be fine from your description. In my opinion if you are 
> using a multi-speed chain, eight or nine speed, chainline is less critical 
> because there is enough flexibility in the chain to compensate being off. I 
> rode single speed for years and if it looked close that was good enough for 
> me. 
>
> You could always measure what you have. Middle of the seat tube to your 
> middle ring. 
>

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[RBW] Re: Chain Line

[George Schick]

Measuring chain line on the rear cog can be tricky, indeed.  It's why I 
gave up years ago and bought a Park CLG-2 chain line gauge (discontinued, 
apparently - don't know what their substitute is, if any).  BTW, they have 
a pretty extensive discussion about chain line measurement and 
shifting/noise issues on their web site 
at http://www.parktool.com/blog/repair-help/chain-line

One thing that puzzles, though, is this statement from Sheldon's discussion 
on the matter:

"… Most bottom brackets made since the mid-'90s are symmetrical, they stick 
out the same amount on each side. If you replace your present bottom 
bracket with one that is, say, 4 mm shorter, it will move the chainline 2 
mm to the left, because it will be 2 mm shorter on each side, and the 
cranks will remain equally spaced from the bicycle's centerline …"

I'm sure this statement is true - I have a symmetrical BB spindle on my Ram 
- *why* is it the case?  Something had to give someplace else in order for 
the spindle to be symmetrical and yet have a crank that lines up properly 
with the rear cogs.  Are newer crankset spyders "dished" in such a way that 
offset the crank arm from the chain rings to maintain proper chain lines? 
 Looking at my bike with the very old (ca. 1975) Sugino 144BCD crank, 
everything seems straight up and down flat, which is why it's coupled to a 
BB with an offset spindle.  So apparently the answer is, yes, they've 
changed over the years and dished the crankset.  Does this factor simplify 
or further complicate chain line calculation?

On Monday, February 10, 2014 2:52:23 PM UTC-6, Jay in Tel Aviv wrote:
>
> Thanks for all the input.
> I tried the magic gear thing and couldn't make it work. Looking at the 
> calculator, I think I now understand why. It shows my 40/16 gear as a 
> perfect match with a 100 link chain and the Sam's 45.5 cm chain stays, as 
> long as there is zero (0) chain stretch. It's way off with just 0.05 inches 
> of stretch over 12 inches of chain.
>
> On Monday, February 10, 2014 7:18:10 PM UTC+2, Jeremy Till wrote:
>>
>> Measuring chainline on the rear cog can be tricky.  My preferred method 
>> is to put a straight edge of some kind across the locknut on the driveside 
>> and measure the distance between the straight edge and the centerline of 
>> the cog.  Then, chainline=(Over locknut spacing of the rear hub)/2 minus 
>> (distance between locknut and cog centerline)
>>
>> Another reason that once I made the commitment that I enjoy SS/fixed 
>> riding, I've vastly preferred to use dedicated fixed or SS hubs which have 
>> a standardized chainline (usually 42mm for track hubs, 52mm for SS MTB 
>> hubs).  It's much easier to measure and dial in chainline at the front with 
>> the proper crank/chainring/BB spindle length combination than at the rear.  
>>
>> On Monday, February 10, 2014 1:15:20 AM UTC-8, Jay in Tel Aviv wrote:
>>>
>>> I've got my Sam Hillborne set up as single speed at the moment, using a 
>>> track cog, spaced and rear derailler.
>>> The setup looks straight enough to my eye, but it does rattle a bit. I'm 
>>> wondering if I've got the chain line a bit off or maybe the spacers are no 
>>> sufficiently tight.
>>> How does one go about measuring chain line? I can't see a simple way to 
>>> get an accurate measurement with a ruler, what with all those pesky pieces 
>>> of metal in the way.
>>>  
>>> If it helps, I'm running a Sugino triple up front with 40/26/bashguard, 
>>> 113 mm BB and a shimano 9 speed cassete hub. I use the 40T chainring pretty 
>>> much exclusively, as there is no FD installed.
>>>  
>>> Thanks,
>>> Jay
>>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Chain Line

[Jay in Tel Aviv]

Thanks for all the input.
I tried the magic gear thing and couldn't make it work. Looking at the 
calculator, I think I now understand why. It shows my 40/16 gear as a 
perfect match with a 100 link chain and the Sam's 45.5 cm chain stays, as 
long as there is zero (0) chain stretch. It's way off with just 0.05 inches 
of stretch over 12 inches of chain.

On Monday, February 10, 2014 7:18:10 PM UTC+2, Jeremy Till wrote:
>
> Measuring chainline on the rear cog can be tricky.  My preferred method is 
> to put a straight edge of some kind across the locknut on the driveside and 
> measure the distance between the straight edge and the centerline of the 
> cog.  Then, chainline=(Over locknut spacing of the rear hub)/2 minus 
> (distance between locknut and cog centerline)
>
> Another reason that once I made the commitment that I enjoy SS/fixed 
> riding, I've vastly preferred to use dedicated fixed or SS hubs which have 
> a standardized chainline (usually 42mm for track hubs, 52mm for SS MTB 
> hubs).  It's much easier to measure and dial in chainline at the front with 
> the proper crank/chainring/BB spindle length combination than at the rear.  
>
> On Monday, February 10, 2014 1:15:20 AM UTC-8, Jay in Tel Aviv wrote:
>>
>> I've got my Sam Hillborne set up as single speed at the moment, using a 
>> track cog, spaced and rear derailler.
>> The setup looks straight enough to my eye, but it does rattle a bit. I'm 
>> wondering if I've got the chain line a bit off or maybe the spacers are no 
>> sufficiently tight.
>> How does one go about measuring chain line? I can't see a simple way to 
>> get an accurate measurement with a ruler, what with all those pesky pieces 
>> of metal in the way.
>>  
>> If it helps, I'm running a Sugino triple up front with 40/26/bashguard, 
>> 113 mm BB and a shimano 9 speed cassete hub. I use the 40T chainring pretty 
>> much exclusively, as there is no FD installed.
>>  
>> Thanks,
>> Jay
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Chain Line

[Jeremy Till]

Measuring chainline on the rear cog can be tricky.  My preferred method is 
to put a straight edge of some kind across the locknut on the driveside and 
measure the distance between the straight edge and the centerline of the 
cog.  Then, chainline=(Over locknut spacing of the rear hub)/2 minus 
(distance between locknut and cog centerline)

Another reason that once I made the commitment that I enjoy SS/fixed 
riding, I've vastly preferred to use dedicated fixed or SS hubs which have 
a standardized chainline (usually 42mm for track hubs, 52mm for SS MTB 
hubs).  It's much easier to measure and dial in chainline at the front with 
the proper crank/chainring/BB spindle length combination than at the rear.  

On Monday, February 10, 2014 1:15:20 AM UTC-8, Jay in Tel Aviv wrote:
>
> I've got my Sam Hillborne set up as single speed at the moment, using a 
> track cog, spaced and rear derailler.
> The setup looks straight enough to my eye, but it does rattle a bit. I'm 
> wondering if I've got the chain line a bit off or maybe the spacers are no 
> sufficiently tight.
> How does one go about measuring chain line? I can't see a simple way to 
> get an accurate measurement with a ruler, what with all those pesky pieces 
> of metal in the way.
>  
> If it helps, I'm running a Sugino triple up front with 40/26/bashguard, 
> 113 mm BB and a shimano 9 speed cassete hub. I use the 40T chainring pretty 
> much exclusively, as there is no FD installed.
>  
> Thanks,
> Jay
>

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[RBW] Re: Chain Line

[Cyclofiend Jim]

BMX single gear sprockets will fit onto a Shimano splined freehub.  

It should run reasonably quiet, but if you have a derailleur in the mix to 
maintain tension, it's not going to run silently.  Also, if the chain has 
been degreased and is a bit dry, it can tend to clatter a bit.

One thing I do is bring it up to speed in the stand and watch how it 
releases from the front chainring and rear sprocket.  Wear on the teeth 
will tend to make the chain release later, which seems to increase noise.

hope that helps!

- J

On Monday, February 10, 2014 8:22:20 AM UTC-8, Philip Williamson wrote:
>
> The term "track cog" baffled me. You have a single cog on a cassette hub?
> My original Quickbeam chain was really noisy, but the new chains have been 
> quiet. I would see if I could put together a "magic gear" and eliminate the 
> derailleur or tensioner entirely. http://eehouse.org/fixin/formfmu.php 
> As far as chain line, I eyeball it, too. 
>
> Good luck with your setup!
>
> Philip
> www.biketinker.com
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Chain Line

[Philip Williamson]

The term "track cog" baffled me. You have a single cog on a cassette hub?
My original Quickbeam chain was really noisy, but the new chains have been 
quiet. I would see if I could put together a "magic gear" and eliminate the 
derailleur or tensioner entirely. http://eehouse.org/fixin/formfmu.php 
As far as chain line, I eyeball it, too. 

Good luck with your setup!

Philip
www.biketinker.com

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[RBW] Re: Chain Line

[Jay in Tel Aviv]

Thanks, Blakcloud.
 
I'm laughing at the term "spacer kit". I raided a bunch of worn out 
cassettes for spacers and a few cogs to fill in. I did the lockring like I 
would for a cassette and it seems tight to me.
Cog is Shimano XTR, this one 
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000R39902/ref=oh_details_o04_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Chain is 9 speed and new. Cleaning and lubing yesterday helped a lot, but 
it's still noicier than I would like.
I almost bought a used Melvin, but the seller backed out.
 
Jay

On Monday, February 10, 2014 2:52:30 PM UTC+2, blakcloud wrote:

> I just eye ball it, If it looks straight it probably is. 
>
> Sheldon Brown has a great article on measuring 
> chainline. 
>
>
> If the chainline is off it doesn't rattle, it just makes some noise but it 
> has to be really off to do this. Typically 8/9 speed chains are quite 
> flexible side to side so you have lots of leeway. 
>
> These are the things that I would check. 
> Is your track cog 3/32 to match your chain.
> If using a spacer kit is everything tight and snug including the lock 
> ring. 
> Some spacer kits are better than others. I tend to like the ones that use 
> a bunch of spacers in different sizes so that you can mix and match to get 
> the lock ring on tight. 
> Check to see if the chain has enough lube. 
> You might want to eliminate the derailleur by using a half link in the 
> chain, sometimes you get lucky. 
>
> One product I really like  is the Surly single speed cogs. They have a 
> wide base at the cassette. They are just better cogs than the stamped steel 
> you usually get with a spacer kit. 
>
> Hope you figure out what the sound is. 
>
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Chain Line

[blakcloud]

I just eye ball it, If it looks straight it probably is. 

Sheldon Brown has a great article on measuring 
chainline. 


If the chainline is off it doesn't rattle, it just makes some noise but it 
has to be really off to do this. Typically 8/9 speed chains are quite 
flexible side to side so you have lots of leeway. 

These are the things that I would check. 
Is your track cog 3/32 to match your chain.
If using a spacer kit is everything tight and snug including the lock ring. 
Some spacer kits are better than others. I tend to like the ones that use a 
bunch of spacers in different sizes so that you can mix and match to get 
the lock ring on tight. 
Check to see if the chain has enough lube. 
You might want to eliminate the derailleur by using a half link in the 
chain, sometimes you get lucky. 

One product I really like  is the Surly single speed cogs. They have a wide 
base at the cassette. They are just better cogs than the stamped steel you 
usually get with a spacer kit. 

Hope you figure out what the sound is. 



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