[RBW] Re: Rivendell, Ad Copy, and Paint

[Bruce]

What your pictures show is common to other RBW bikes (including mine) with 
standard paint jobs (you have a standard job, but a custom color). Love your 
bike btw. What gears ratio(s) are you using? 

This thread is getting a bit worn out though. Most people with opinions have 
weighed in.





From: William F. House 
To: RBW Owners Bunch 
Sent: Thu, November 5, 2009 10:22:28 PM
Subject: [RBW] Re: Rivendell, Ad Copy, and Paint


Okay, I was going to wait until the weekend to post pics, 



  
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[RBW] Re: Rivendell, Ad Copy, and Paint

[Rene Valbuena]

That's good. I thought, for a while there, you are like Adrian Monk who
cannot live when some things are not in order or right. Or you might just be
role playing your future namesake "Dr. House" -- throwing us puzzles to get
the right diagnosis or just having fun at;-)

-Original Message-
From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
[mailto:rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of William F. House
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 11:21 PM
To: RBW Owners Bunch
Subject: [RBW] Re: Rivendell, Ad Copy, and Paint


Rene,

I mean well when I say this too: there's NO WAY I will sell this bike.
This bike will eventually be passed on to a grandchild (many, many
years from now). As I've said in a number of previous responses in
this and other threads, I still love the bike. Thanks again for the
advice, but this bike will never leave my care, flaws or not. ;-)

- Will

On Nov 5, 11:57 pm, "Rene Valbuena"  wrote:
> Please believe me that I mean well when I say this: I think you will not
be
> totally happy with that bike so I suggest that you sell it and get another
> one.
>
> When I got my Rivendell Wilbury three years ago, I also had my choice of
> color. I can't remember though if I was charged extra for that. I think I
> was. In any case, I was also not totally happy. The masking details on the
> super fancy lugs leave much to be desired. But at a distance of five feet,
> the bike was stunning. I regrettably sold that bike to pay off an
emergency
> plumbing problem in the house. I am sure you can find a lesser compelling
> reason to sell yours.
>
> All the best,
>
> Rene
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
>
> [mailto:rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of William F. House
> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 9:46 PM
> To: RBW Owners Bunch
> Subject: [RBW] Re: Rivendell, Ad Copy, and Paint
>
> Thank you. Now I feel a little more sane. I don't think I was
> expecting the bike to be utterly flawless, but for nearly $4000 there
> sure are a lot of little flaws.
>
> Rides like a dream though. And it's very hard to spot those little
> flaws while I'm riding. So, there's that. ;-)
>
> On Nov 5, 10:40 pm, cyclotourist  wrote:
> > I wouldn't be happy with that paint detailing.  The paint was better on
my
> > $650 Bleriot (best detail pic I
> > have)<http://www.flickr.com/photos/cyclotourist/335429650/sizes/o/>.
>
> > This is a $2000 frame with a $300 up-charge for custom color.
>
> > DE
>
> > On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 9:28 PM, rob markwardt 
> wrote:
>
> > > You have a beautiful bike but it just shows we've all got different
> > > standards. I honestly don't think I've ever even looked at my bikes
> > > paint that closely...with my rapidly advancing far-sightedness I don't
> > > know if I could even see it!  However, even I can spot the shoddy lug
> > > painting my 72 PX-10.  I think they brought in chimps in to paint
> > > those things...adds character!!!
>
> > > On Nov 5, 8:26 pm, "William F. House"  wrote:
> > > > Also, note that in the first photo linked that just to the upper
right
> > > > of the uppermost lug curly-cue above the headbadge there's a line of
> > > > green just hanging out right on the cream white. It appears no
attempt
> > > > to clean that up was made. I'd say that's the worst of the errors.
Two
> > > > people that have seen the bike tried to brush it off thinking it was
a
> > > > piece of lint or string and commented "oh, that's paint."
>
> > > > Here's the picture in question again:
>
> > > >http://www.flickr.com/photos/lushmojo/4079738322/sizes/o/
>
> > --
> > Cheers,
> > David
> > Redlands, CA
>
> > "Bicycling is a big part of the future. It has to be. There is something
> > wrong with a society that drives a car to workout in a gym."  ~Bill Nye,
> > scientist guy




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[RBW] Re: Rivendell, Ad Copy, and Paint

[William F. House]

Rene,

I mean well when I say this too: there's NO WAY I will sell this bike.
This bike will eventually be passed on to a grandchild (many, many
years from now). As I've said in a number of previous responses in
this and other threads, I still love the bike. Thanks again for the
advice, but this bike will never leave my care, flaws or not. ;-)

- Will

On Nov 5, 11:57 pm, "Rene Valbuena"  wrote:
> Please believe me that I mean well when I say this: I think you will not be
> totally happy with that bike so I suggest that you sell it and get another
> one.
>
> When I got my Rivendell Wilbury three years ago, I also had my choice of
> color. I can't remember though if I was charged extra for that. I think I
> was. In any case, I was also not totally happy. The masking details on the
> super fancy lugs leave much to be desired. But at a distance of five feet,
> the bike was stunning. I regrettably sold that bike to pay off an emergency
> plumbing problem in the house. I am sure you can find a lesser compelling
> reason to sell yours.
>
> All the best,
>
> Rene
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
>
> [mailto:rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of William F. House
> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 9:46 PM
> To: RBW Owners Bunch
> Subject: [RBW] Re: Rivendell, Ad Copy, and Paint
>
> Thank you. Now I feel a little more sane. I don't think I was
> expecting the bike to be utterly flawless, but for nearly $4000 there
> sure are a lot of little flaws.
>
> Rides like a dream though. And it's very hard to spot those little
> flaws while I'm riding. So, there's that. ;-)
>
> On Nov 5, 10:40 pm, cyclotourist  wrote:
> > I wouldn't be happy with that paint detailing.  The paint was better on my
> > $650 Bleriot (best detail pic I
> > have)<http://www.flickr.com/photos/cyclotourist/335429650/sizes/o/>.
>
> > This is a $2000 frame with a $300 up-charge for custom color.
>
> > DE
>
> > On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 9:28 PM, rob markwardt 
> wrote:
>
> > > You have a beautiful bike but it just shows we've all got different
> > > standards. I honestly don't think I've ever even looked at my bikes
> > > paint that closely...with my rapidly advancing far-sightedness I don't
> > > know if I could even see it!  However, even I can spot the shoddy lug
> > > painting my 72 PX-10.  I think they brought in chimps in to paint
> > > those things...adds character!!!
>
> > > On Nov 5, 8:26 pm, "William F. House"  wrote:
> > > > Also, note that in the first photo linked that just to the upper right
> > > > of the uppermost lug curly-cue above the headbadge there's a line of
> > > > green just hanging out right on the cream white. It appears no attempt
> > > > to clean that up was made. I'd say that's the worst of the errors. Two
> > > > people that have seen the bike tried to brush it off thinking it was a
> > > > piece of lint or string and commented "oh, that's paint."
>
> > > > Here's the picture in question again:
>
> > > >http://www.flickr.com/photos/lushmojo/4079738322/sizes/o/
>
> > --
> > Cheers,
> > David
> > Redlands, CA
>
> > "Bicycling is a big part of the future. It has to be. There is something
> > wrong with a society that drives a car to workout in a gym."  ~Bill Nye,
> > scientist guy
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[RBW] Re: Rivendell, Ad Copy, and Paint

[rcnute]

My favorite Rivs to look at are the battle-scarred ones.  :)

On Nov 5, 10:57 pm, "Rene Valbuena"  wrote:
> Please believe me that I mean well when I say this: I think you will not be
> totally happy with that bike so I suggest that you sell it and get another
> one.
>
> When I got my Rivendell Wilbury three years ago, I also had my choice of
> color. I can't remember though if I was charged extra for that. I think I
> was. In any case, I was also not totally happy. The masking details on the
> super fancy lugs leave much to be desired. But at a distance of five feet,
> the bike was stunning. I regrettably sold that bike to pay off an emergency
> plumbing problem in the house. I am sure you can find a lesser compelling
> reason to sell yours.
>
> All the best,
>
> Rene
>
> -Original Message-
> From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
>
> [mailto:rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of William F. House
> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 9:46 PM
> To: RBW Owners Bunch
> Subject: [RBW] Re: Rivendell, Ad Copy, and Paint
>
> Thank you. Now I feel a little more sane. I don't think I was
> expecting the bike to be utterly flawless, but for nearly $4000 there
> sure are a lot of little flaws.
>
> Rides like a dream though. And it's very hard to spot those little
> flaws while I'm riding. So, there's that. ;-)
>
> On Nov 5, 10:40 pm, cyclotourist  wrote:
> > I wouldn't be happy with that paint detailing.  The paint was better on my
> > $650 Bleriot (best detail pic I
> > have)<http://www.flickr.com/photos/cyclotourist/335429650/sizes/o/>.
>
> > This is a $2000 frame with a $300 up-charge for custom color.
>
> > DE
>
> > On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 9:28 PM, rob markwardt 
> wrote:
>
> > > You have a beautiful bike but it just shows we've all got different
> > > standards. I honestly don't think I've ever even looked at my bikes
> > > paint that closely...with my rapidly advancing far-sightedness I don't
> > > know if I could even see it!  However, even I can spot the shoddy lug
> > > painting my 72 PX-10.  I think they brought in chimps in to paint
> > > those things...adds character!!!
>
> > > On Nov 5, 8:26 pm, "William F. House"  wrote:
> > > > Also, note that in the first photo linked that just to the upper right
> > > > of the uppermost lug curly-cue above the headbadge there's a line of
> > > > green just hanging out right on the cream white. It appears no attempt
> > > > to clean that up was made. I'd say that's the worst of the errors. Two
> > > > people that have seen the bike tried to brush it off thinking it was a
> > > > piece of lint or string and commented "oh, that's paint."
>
> > > > Here's the picture in question again:
>
> > > >http://www.flickr.com/photos/lushmojo/4079738322/sizes/o/
>
> > --
> > Cheers,
> > David
> > Redlands, CA
>
> > "Bicycling is a big part of the future. It has to be. There is something
> > wrong with a society that drives a car to workout in a gym."  ~Bill Nye,
> > scientist guy
>
>
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[RBW] Re: Rivendell, Ad Copy, and Paint

[Rene Valbuena]

Please believe me that I mean well when I say this: I think you will not be
totally happy with that bike so I suggest that you sell it and get another
one.

When I got my Rivendell Wilbury three years ago, I also had my choice of
color. I can't remember though if I was charged extra for that. I think I
was. In any case, I was also not totally happy. The masking details on the
super fancy lugs leave much to be desired. But at a distance of five feet,
the bike was stunning. I regrettably sold that bike to pay off an emergency
plumbing problem in the house. I am sure you can find a lesser compelling
reason to sell yours.

All the best,

Rene

-Original Message-
From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
[mailto:rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of William F. House
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 9:46 PM
To: RBW Owners Bunch
Subject: [RBW] Re: Rivendell, Ad Copy, and Paint


Thank you. Now I feel a little more sane. I don't think I was
expecting the bike to be utterly flawless, but for nearly $4000 there
sure are a lot of little flaws.

Rides like a dream though. And it's very hard to spot those little
flaws while I'm riding. So, there's that. ;-)

On Nov 5, 10:40 pm, cyclotourist  wrote:
> I wouldn't be happy with that paint detailing.  The paint was better on my
> $650 Bleriot (best detail pic I
> have)<http://www.flickr.com/photos/cyclotourist/335429650/sizes/o/>.
>
> This is a $2000 frame with a $300 up-charge for custom color.
>
> DE
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 9:28 PM, rob markwardt 
wrote:
>
> > You have a beautiful bike but it just shows we've all got different
> > standards. I honestly don't think I've ever even looked at my bikes
> > paint that closely...with my rapidly advancing far-sightedness I don't
> > know if I could even see it!  However, even I can spot the shoddy lug
> > painting my 72 PX-10.  I think they brought in chimps in to paint
> > those things...adds character!!!
>
> > On Nov 5, 8:26 pm, "William F. House"  wrote:
> > > Also, note that in the first photo linked that just to the upper right
> > > of the uppermost lug curly-cue above the headbadge there's a line of
> > > green just hanging out right on the cream white. It appears no attempt
> > > to clean that up was made. I'd say that's the worst of the errors. Two
> > > people that have seen the bike tried to brush it off thinking it was a
> > > piece of lint or string and commented "oh, that's paint."
>
> > > Here's the picture in question again:
>
> > >http://www.flickr.com/photos/lushmojo/4079738322/sizes/o/
>
> --
> Cheers,
> David
> Redlands, CA
>
> "Bicycling is a big part of the future. It has to be. There is something
> wrong with a society that drives a car to workout in a gym."  ~Bill Nye,
> scientist guy




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[RBW] Re: Rivendell, Ad Copy, and Paint

[james black]

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 20:22, William F. House  wrote:
> Okay, I was going to wait until the weekend to post pics, but I've
> snapped a few tonight with the bike under the lights in our kitchen.

Thanks for the pics. My reaction is that I probably would not have
thought to complain had I received a bike from Rivendell with paint
like that (still so much better than the crude lug outlining on my old
Nishikis!), but it seems not unreasonable that you would have had
higher expectations and be thus disappointed.

But I'm not sure what I would expect Rivendell to do in this case.
Would I expect them to reject the bike when they receive it from the
painter and inspect it? Probably not, it's still better than most
paint jobs. This is an awkward customer service issue for Rivendell.

James Black

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell, Ad Copy, and Paint

[William F. House]

Thank you. Now I feel a little more sane. I don't think I was
expecting the bike to be utterly flawless, but for nearly $4000 there
sure are a lot of little flaws.

Rides like a dream though. And it's very hard to spot those little
flaws while I'm riding. So, there's that. ;-)

On Nov 5, 10:40 pm, cyclotourist  wrote:
> I wouldn't be happy with that paint detailing.  The paint was better on my
> $650 Bleriot (best detail pic I
> have).
>
> This is a $2000 frame with a $300 up-charge for custom color.
>
> DE
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 9:28 PM, rob markwardt  wrote:
>
> > You have a beautiful bike but it just shows we've all got different
> > standards. I honestly don't think I've ever even looked at my bikes
> > paint that closely...with my rapidly advancing far-sightedness I don't
> > know if I could even see it!  However, even I can spot the shoddy lug
> > painting my 72 PX-10.  I think they brought in chimps in to paint
> > those things...adds character!!!
>
> > On Nov 5, 8:26 pm, "William F. House"  wrote:
> > > Also, note that in the first photo linked that just to the upper right
> > > of the uppermost lug curly-cue above the headbadge there's a line of
> > > green just hanging out right on the cream white. It appears no attempt
> > > to clean that up was made. I'd say that's the worst of the errors. Two
> > > people that have seen the bike tried to brush it off thinking it was a
> > > piece of lint or string and commented "oh, that's paint."
>
> > > Here's the picture in question again:
>
> > >http://www.flickr.com/photos/lushmojo/4079738322/sizes/o/
>
> --
> Cheers,
> David
> Redlands, CA
>
> "Bicycling is a big part of the future. It has to be. There is something
> wrong with a society that drives a car to workout in a gym."  ~Bill Nye,
> scientist guy
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[RBW] Re: Rivendell, Ad Copy, and Paint

[cyclotourist]

I wouldn't be happy with that paint detailing.  The paint was better on my
$650 Bleriot (best detail pic I
have).

This is a $2000 frame with a $300 up-charge for custom color.

DE


On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 9:28 PM, rob markwardt  wrote:

>
> You have a beautiful bike but it just shows we've all got different
> standards. I honestly don't think I've ever even looked at my bikes
> paint that closely...with my rapidly advancing far-sightedness I don't
> know if I could even see it!  However, even I can spot the shoddy lug
> painting my 72 PX-10.  I think they brought in chimps in to paint
> those things...adds character!!!
>
> On Nov 5, 8:26 pm, "William F. House"  wrote:
> > Also, note that in the first photo linked that just to the upper right
> > of the uppermost lug curly-cue above the headbadge there's a line of
> > green just hanging out right on the cream white. It appears no attempt
> > to clean that up was made. I'd say that's the worst of the errors. Two
> > people that have seen the bike tried to brush it off thinking it was a
> > piece of lint or string and commented "oh, that's paint."
> >
> > Here's the picture in question again:
> >
> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/lushmojo/4079738322/sizes/o/
> >
>


-- 
Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA

"Bicycling is a big part of the future. It has to be. There is something
wrong with a society that drives a car to workout in a gym."  ~Bill Nye,
scientist guy

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell, Ad Copy, and Paint

[rob markwardt]

You have a beautiful bike but it just shows we've all got different
standards. I honestly don't think I've ever even looked at my bikes
paint that closely...with my rapidly advancing far-sightedness I don't
know if I could even see it!  However, even I can spot the shoddy lug
painting my 72 PX-10.  I think they brought in chimps in to paint
those things...adds character!!!

On Nov 5, 8:26 pm, "William F. House"  wrote:
> Also, note that in the first photo linked that just to the upper right
> of the uppermost lug curly-cue above the headbadge there's a line of
> green just hanging out right on the cream white. It appears no attempt
> to clean that up was made. I'd say that's the worst of the errors. Two
> people that have seen the bike tried to brush it off thinking it was a
> piece of lint or string and commented "oh, that's paint."
>
> Here's the picture in question again:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/lushmojo/4079738322/sizes/o/
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[RBW] Re: Rivendell, Ad Copy, and Paint

[William F. House]

Also, note that in the first photo linked that just to the upper right
of the uppermost lug curly-cue above the headbadge there's a line of
green just hanging out right on the cream white. It appears no attempt
to clean that up was made. I'd say that's the worst of the errors. Two
people that have seen the bike tried to brush it off thinking it was a
piece of lint or string and commented "oh, that's paint."

Here's the picture in question again:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lushmojo/4079738322/sizes/o/
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[RBW] Re: Rivendell, Ad Copy, and Paint

[William F. House]

Okay, I was going to wait until the weekend to post pics, but I've
snapped a few tonight with the bike under the lights in our kitchen.
These would be much better outside in the sunlight, but I believe they
give an idea of what I'm talking about. I've crudely circled the flaws
or sloppiness in red via Photoshop. I'm linking the original size
photos, so if you want a smaller version to orient yourself to the
frame area you can simple select the "Large" size at the top.

The issues as I see them include very imprecise lines, white paint
droplets on green, and very thin coats of cream white where green
shows through. These issues are present throughout the bike, but these
are the main areas and the only ones I took time to document.
Altogether there are about a dozen or so spots that I would term a
flaw. What you might term a flaw or what Rivendell might term a flaw
may differ entirely.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lushmojo/4079738322/sizes/o/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lushmojo/4079744472/sizes/o/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lushmojo/4078987247/sizes/o/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lushmojo/4079745532/sizes/o/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/lushmojo/4079746070/sizes/o/
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[RBW] Re: Rivendell, Ad Copy, and Paint

[cyclotourist]

If I just had an extra $3,726 lying around...

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 7:54 PM, Esteban  wrote:

>
> FWIW regarding Riv paint - This looks rather nice:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/25671...@n02/3590669671/sizes/l/
>
>
> On Nov 5, 7:40 pm, james black  wrote:
> > On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 16:46, John Stoesser 
> wrote:
> > > This paint issue you speak of makes me lean to Waterford.
> >
> > It seems rash to jump to the conclusion that Rivendell's custom paint
> > job is no match for the one that Waterford would give you, based on
> > hearsay from one guy. I would suggest you withhold judgment until you
> > see the photos yourself. Perhaps William House is pickier than you?
> >
> > Anyways, William House, I urge you to post some careful photos. I am
> > sorry that you were disappointed, but as you see from John's post,
> > criticizing Rivendell publicly on a forum like this has the potential
> > to cost Rivendell thousands of dollars in sales. I don't think that
> > was your intention, so let's see the photos so everyone can evaluate
> > for themselves, and thereby absolve yourself of the responsibility for
> > damaging Rivendell's reputation.
> >
> > James Black
> > Los Angeles, CA
> >
>


-- 
Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA

"Bicycling is a big part of the future. It has to be. There is something
wrong with a society that drives a car to workout in a gym."  ~Bill Nye,
scientist guy

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell, Ad Copy, and Paint

[cyclotourist]

FWIW, W'Ford has a reputation for soft paint that is easily
knicked/scratched.


On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 4:46 PM, John Stoesser  wrote:

>
> Personally I think the customer has a beef. A sub-par paint job on a $4,000
> bike is unacceptable. A sub-par paint job on a $2,000 frame is
> unacceptable.
> If you advertise a custom paint job, it should be in line with the quality
> of the standard paint on the AHH. Anything less should sell for less than
> the standard frame. I would hold them accountable. I'm glad you posted this
> as I've been wrestling with a 69 or 71cm AHH (if they hadn't discontinued
> the 68cm Atlantis that would be the consideration) or a custom Adventure
> Cycle from Waterford. The price is pretty darn close. Since Rivendell uses
> Waterford as a manufacturer (and I do admire Rivendell), I consider that an
> endorsement of the Waterford quality.
> This paint issue you speak of makes me lean to Waterford.
> -Original Message-
> From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of William F. House
> Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 11:17 AM
> To: RBW Owners Bunch
> Subject: [RBW] Re: Rivendell, Ad Copy, and Paint
>
>
> Thanks for the informative words, Dustin. And yes, I'm out there
> riding daily. Let me see if I get what you're saying:
>
> Don't trust marketing.
> The onus was with me to do due diligence.
>
> I'll have to remember those. ;-) And I agree that Riv is really good
> at walking folks through the process. Just not in the paint category.
> Regardless of their marketing this should have been made clear to me,
> but you may disagree with that as well. Let me see if I remember the
> points again:
>
> Lord loves a working man.
> Don't trust whitey.
> See a doctor and get rid of it.
>
> Yep, got it! Now back to finishing my burger and studying for med
> school.
>
> On Nov 5, 10:01 am, Dustin Sharp  wrote:
> > Somehow I think that if we held all manufactures and retailers to the
> > literal words of their ad copy, a lot of them would be in deep trouble.
>  But
> > we expect a certain amount of puffery and salesmanship even from the best
> > and most honest of them.
> >
> > The claim made is clearly of this genre--Riv couldn't possibly mean it
> > literally since they'd have to know all the other bikes you've seen and
> > touched. And I don't think even Riv claims they are hands-down better
> than
> > something like a Toei or a Richard Sachs.
> >
> > Given all this, it seems there is also a general burden on the
> consumer--all
> > consumers--to do a little due diligence. Even if some widget is touted as
> > being "super duper fantastic" at $100, it's not reasonable for me to
> expect
> > it to be as super duper fantastic as one costing $1000.
> >
> > In the end, I think Riv is better than most in walking new folks through
> the
> > process, and hopefully they will become better after your feedback.
> >
> > But I don't find their ad copy misleading. Except to the extent that the
> > phrase "misleading ad-copy" is redundant.
> >
> > Anywho, hope you get out and ride that sucker! When it gets chipped up in
> a
> > couple of years, you can plunk down $1000 for Joe Bell perfection, if you
> > wish.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Dustin Sharp
> > San Diego, CA
> >
> >
> >
> > > From: "William F. House" 
> > > Reply-To: 
> > > Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 08:30:56 -0800 (PST)
> > > To: RBW Owners Bunch 
> > > Subject: [RBW] Re: Looking for that String in The Custom Color
> Labyrinth
> >
> > > I understand all that fully.now. Again, I've tried to make this
> > > clear in previous posts. My beef isn't the flaws or the price or
> > > really anything other than the fact that Rivendell didn't explain this
> > > to me as a novice. If they had taken the time to fully explicate what
> > > I was paying for and exactly what I could look forward to (and not
> > > look forward to) then I would have been much more satisfied.
> >
> > > As such their website states, "We do, though, guarantee that we put
> > > every effort into making your Rivendell the best bike you've ever
> > > seen, touched, heard about, or ridden." That's not exactly what I got.
> > > I got an excellent bike, but it's not the best I've ever seen,
> > > touched, heard about or ridden (with regard to paint).
> >
> > > Look at it this way. I could 

[RBW] Re: Rivendell, Ad Copy, and Paint

[Angus]

I've had two Waterford build Rivendells, a Joe Stark built and Joe
Bell painted Rivendell, two Toyo built Rivendells (one painted, one
clear powder coated).

The only "perfect" paint job was the Joe Bell one...and I chipped the
top tube paint assembling the bike.

I will probably have one of the frames repainted in the near future
and I'll have the $300 paint job from their local painter.  Just need
to choose a color.

Angus

On Nov 5, 9:40 pm, james black  wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 16:46, John Stoesser  wrote:
> > This paint issue you speak of makes me lean to Waterford.
>
> It seems rash to jump to the conclusion that Rivendell's custom paint
> job is no match for the one that Waterford would give you, based on
> hearsay from one guy. I would suggest you withhold judgment until you
> see the photos yourself. Perhaps William House is pickier than you?
>
> Anyways, William House, I urge you to post some careful photos. I am
> sorry that you were disappointed, but as you see from John's post,
> criticizing Rivendell publicly on a forum like this has the potential
> to cost Rivendell thousands of dollars in sales. I don't think that
> was your intention, so let's see the photos so everyone can evaluate
> for themselves, and thereby absolve yourself of the responsibility for
> damaging Rivendell's reputation.
>
> James Black
> Los Angeles, CA
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[RBW] Re: Rivendell, Ad Copy, and Paint

[Esteban]

FWIW regarding Riv paint - This looks rather nice:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/25671...@n02/3590669671/sizes/l/


On Nov 5, 7:40 pm, james black  wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 16:46, John Stoesser  wrote:
> > This paint issue you speak of makes me lean to Waterford.
>
> It seems rash to jump to the conclusion that Rivendell's custom paint
> job is no match for the one that Waterford would give you, based on
> hearsay from one guy. I would suggest you withhold judgment until you
> see the photos yourself. Perhaps William House is pickier than you?
>
> Anyways, William House, I urge you to post some careful photos. I am
> sorry that you were disappointed, but as you see from John's post,
> criticizing Rivendell publicly on a forum like this has the potential
> to cost Rivendell thousands of dollars in sales. I don't think that
> was your intention, so let's see the photos so everyone can evaluate
> for themselves, and thereby absolve yourself of the responsibility for
> damaging Rivendell's reputation.
>
> James Black
> Los Angeles, CA
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[RBW] Re: Rivendell, Ad Copy, and Paint

[james black]

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 16:46, John Stoesser  wrote:
> This paint issue you speak of makes me lean to Waterford.

It seems rash to jump to the conclusion that Rivendell's custom paint
job is no match for the one that Waterford would give you, based on
hearsay from one guy. I would suggest you withhold judgment until you
see the photos yourself. Perhaps William House is pickier than you?

Anyways, William House, I urge you to post some careful photos. I am
sorry that you were disappointed, but as you see from John's post,
criticizing Rivendell publicly on a forum like this has the potential
to cost Rivendell thousands of dollars in sales. I don't think that
was your intention, so let's see the photos so everyone can evaluate
for themselves, and thereby absolve yourself of the responsibility for
damaging Rivendell's reputation.

James Black
Los Angeles, CA

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell, Ad Copy, and Paint

[CycloFiend]

on 11/5/09 4:46 PM, John Stoesser at jstoes...@comcast.net wrote:

> Personally I think the customer has a beef. A sub-par paint job on a $4,000
> bike is unacceptable. A sub-par paint job on a $2,000 frame is unacceptable.
> If you advertise a custom paint job, it should be in line with the quality
> of the standard paint on the AHH. Anything less should sell for less than
> the standard frame. I would hold them accountable. I'm glad you posted this
> as I've been wrestling with a 69 or 71cm AHH (if they hadn't discontinued
> the 68cm Atlantis that would be the consideration) or a custom Adventure
> Cycle from Waterford. The price is pretty darn close. Since Rivendell uses
> Waterford as a manufacturer (and I do admire Rivendell), I consider that an
> endorsement of the Waterford quality.
> This paint issue you speak of makes me lean to Waterford.

Which is why I think it's fair to ask to see specific photos of the paint
job aspects that were of concern to him, which William said he'd try to
supply (in another thread, I think...).  With that, I think it's reasonable
to judge the work on that specific bicycle. I'd have difficulty
extrapolating it much further.

I've got a few more detailed images of my Hilsen here -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cyclofiend/sets/72157604497206482/


There have been few general complaints about paint quality with Rivendell
models over the years, the notable exception being on the Bleriot, which
generally lamented that the detail quality was not as good as the regular
two-toned Rivendells.

Also, I don't think it's _advertised_ as a "custom" paint job.  To wit:

http://www.rivbike.com/products/list/bicycle_models#product=50-650

"Color: The signature A.H.H. color is a medium dark old blue with a tiny bit
of sparkle that's visible only in bright sun. The head tube and lug
highlights are cream, as they are with all of our bikes.
"What if I want another color?" You can probably get it, but it'll cost you
$300 more. That's what it costs us. It's possible that we'll change colors
on future productions, but it will always be some shade of blue, and the
only other blue that's in the running is a really pretty one, too. Lighter
and with some grey, but really good-looking."

The only other point I'll belabor is that if anyone does have a beef with a
Rivendell product or service, the first call is to them, and as I said in a
different post, asking  specifically for what would set it right.  This
group is not the means for communicating with Rivendell Bicycle Works on a
customer service issue.

- Jim

-- 
Jim Edgar
cyclofi...@earthlink.net

Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries - http://www.cyclofiend.com
Current Classics - Cross Bikes
Singlespeed - Working Bikes

Send In Your Photos! - Here's how: http://www.cyclofiend.com/guidelines


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[RBW] Re: Rivendell, Ad Copy, and Paint

[John Stoesser]

Personally I think the customer has a beef. A sub-par paint job on a $4,000
bike is unacceptable. A sub-par paint job on a $2,000 frame is unacceptable.
If you advertise a custom paint job, it should be in line with the quality
of the standard paint on the AHH. Anything less should sell for less than
the standard frame. I would hold them accountable. I'm glad you posted this
as I've been wrestling with a 69 or 71cm AHH (if they hadn't discontinued
the 68cm Atlantis that would be the consideration) or a custom Adventure
Cycle from Waterford. The price is pretty darn close. Since Rivendell uses
Waterford as a manufacturer (and I do admire Rivendell), I consider that an
endorsement of the Waterford quality. 
This paint issue you speak of makes me lean to Waterford.
-Original Message-
From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
[mailto:rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of William F. House
Sent: Thursday, November 05, 2009 11:17 AM
To: RBW Owners Bunch
Subject: [RBW] Re: Rivendell, Ad Copy, and Paint


Thanks for the informative words, Dustin. And yes, I'm out there
riding daily. Let me see if I get what you're saying:

Don't trust marketing.
The onus was with me to do due diligence.

I'll have to remember those. ;-) And I agree that Riv is really good
at walking folks through the process. Just not in the paint category.
Regardless of their marketing this should have been made clear to me,
but you may disagree with that as well. Let me see if I remember the
points again:

Lord loves a working man.
Don't trust whitey.
See a doctor and get rid of it.

Yep, got it! Now back to finishing my burger and studying for med
school.

On Nov 5, 10:01 am, Dustin Sharp  wrote:
> Somehow I think that if we held all manufactures and retailers to the
> literal words of their ad copy, a lot of them would be in deep trouble.
 But
> we expect a certain amount of puffery and salesmanship even from the best
> and most honest of them.
>
> The claim made is clearly of this genre--Riv couldn't possibly mean it
> literally since they'd have to know all the other bikes you've seen and
> touched. And I don't think even Riv claims they are hands-down better than
> something like a Toei or a Richard Sachs.
>
> Given all this, it seems there is also a general burden on the
consumer--all
> consumers--to do a little due diligence. Even if some widget is touted as
> being "super duper fantastic" at $100, it's not reasonable for me to
expect
> it to be as super duper fantastic as one costing $1000.
>
> In the end, I think Riv is better than most in walking new folks through
the
> process, and hopefully they will become better after your feedback.
>
> But I don't find their ad copy misleading. Except to the extent that the
> phrase "misleading ad-copy" is redundant.
>
> Anywho, hope you get out and ride that sucker! When it gets chipped up in
a
> couple of years, you can plunk down $1000 for Joe Bell perfection, if you
> wish.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Dustin Sharp
> San Diego, CA
>
>
>
> > From: "William F. House" 
> > Reply-To: 
> > Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 08:30:56 -0800 (PST)
> > To: RBW Owners Bunch 
> > Subject: [RBW] Re: Looking for that String in The Custom Color Labyrinth
>
> > I understand all that fully.now. Again, I've tried to make this
> > clear in previous posts. My beef isn't the flaws or the price or
> > really anything other than the fact that Rivendell didn't explain this
> > to me as a novice. If they had taken the time to fully explicate what
> > I was paying for and exactly what I could look forward to (and not
> > look forward to) then I would have been much more satisfied.
>
> > As such their website states, "We do, though, guarantee that we put
> > every effort into making your Rivendell the best bike you've ever
> > seen, touched, heard about, or ridden." That's not exactly what I got.
> > I got an excellent bike, but it's not the best I've ever seen,
> > touched, heard about or ridden (with regard to paint).
>
> > Look at it this way. I could advertise the "best hamburger in the
> > entire world, hands down, no question."  And maybe you ordered one and
> > wanted some custom element like a gourmet bun. So, you pay $50 more
> > for the bun. You get the burger and take a bite and find the bun
> > stale, would you feel the advertising had failed? Now, what if someone
> > told you, "listen Doug, you could've had a really fresh bun, but you
> > should've paid for the BEST chef to cook it," would you feel a little
> > misled? I would. How were you to know that if you paid much more money
> > fo

[RBW] Re: Rivendell, Ad Copy, and Paint

[CycloFiend]

on 11/5/09 9:49 AM, reynoldslugs at be...@perrylaw.net wrote:

> 
> This discussion about paint and ad copy is interesting.  I am in the
> process of sending a couple frames (including a new Roadeo) to
> Rivendell's painter, Rick.  I seem to remember that the Reader carried
> an article about Rick, his painting, and the differences between a JB
> paint job and the "stock" paint we get on the other framesets.  I
> looked through my old copies of the Reader, and couldn't find the
> article.
> 
> Does anyone recall that article about Rick? If so, perhaps you could
> tell the list which issue it was in.  Thanks...

"Rick stafani, the bike painter" appeared in RR#38.  Don't have a scan of
that one.

And, since it may be the next question, the "Joe Bell Interview" appeared in
RR#22.  Ditto on the scan.

No time today to scan. Happy to later in the week.

- J

-- 
Jim Edgar
cyclofi...@earthlink.net

Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries - http://www.cyclofiend.com
Current Classics - Cross Bikes
Singlespeed - Working Bikes
Workshops of the iBob's

Send In Your Photos! - Here's how: http://www.cyclofiend.com/guidelines


"My nighttime attitude is anyone can run you down and get away with it.
That's why I don't even own a bike light or one of those godawful reflective
suits.  Because if you've put yourself in a position where someone has to
see you in order for you to be safe...you've already blown it."
-- Neal Stephenson, "Zodiac"


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