[RBW] Re: Rivendell tinkering..

[Ron Mc]

Not riding in somebody else's pre-defined riding position, it should take 
100 miles of focused effort to dial in any bike - seat, stem height, 
bar-rotation at stem.  

 
Another really good approach is put it on a trainer and find all your 
riding positions.  

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell tinkering..

[Kiley Demond]

Oh my goodness! Yes, my Riv made me more of a tinkerer. In reading 
something-or-the-other Grant wrote, that is part of the intention; well, it 
is more of a by-product of the intention: Make things simple and fixable. 
By making them simple (relatively speaking), we have the opportunity to 
work on and learn from our bikes. Disc brakes were on my right-before-Riv 
bike and while they were great, but I would have had no clue how to work on 
them. We have the opportunity to understand what a subtle change in a 
component translates to in feeling and and performance, I changed handle 
bars and shifters and brakes levers several times. And, by making it 
fixable, we have the opportunity to stick with a bike even when something 
malfunctions because we can replace the component ourselves when it is all 
too tempting to start over because the cost of an LBS doing the work 
narrows the cost gap to new. Prior to my Riv, the most I had done was swap 
seat posts, saddles and handlebars. I stripped and rebuilt my Cheviot 
several times. "I" am a sixty year old woman with questionable mechanical 
skills to augment keen mechanical desires. And yet, I did it. Slowly and 
several times over, but I loved every minute of it. 

Evidently, I was bound for this fate anyway. I started tinkering with bikes 
at 18 months of age. Grant just reminded me;-).

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell tinkering..

[Fullylugged]

Fat tires approved!

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell tinkering..

[Craig Montgomery]

Owen, Deacon, Kiley, 
You bet. The bikes invite "messin' with." I remember reading the early 
catalogs where Grant would make suggestions on different ways to set up his 
designs.  I remember unboxing that brand new '96 All Rounder and thinking 
"now what the hell can I do with this?" The bike changed over the years 
through the evolution of riding styles, purposes, and age. And it was a lot 
of fun, stress relieving, and cheaper than changing bikes. Although I've 
had dozens of bikes in my adult life, collecting and riding vintage, the 
All Rounder has always been the mainstay, the flagship, and always 
malleable. 
Here's a few major permutations: 

1997:   https://www.flickr.com/photos/24722971@N05/4354670656/

2003:   https://www.flickr.com/photos/24722971@N05/3199899065

2008:   https://www.flickr.com/photos/24722971@N05/3696789561

2017:   https://www.flickr.com/photos/24722971@N05/24144107988

2019:   https://www.flickr.com/photos/24722971@N05/47179428032/

Craig in Tucson


 

On Tuesday, February 26, 2019 at 5:18:21 AM UTC-7, OwenS wrote:
>
> I don't know if it's just me but my recently acquired Clem Smith has me 
> continually tinkering and tweaking the setup - trying new positions for the 
> microshift thumbies, different bosco bar heights and angles and it got me 
> wondering if this has been the same experience for others? Do you find 
> yourself continually wanting to tweak, modify and personalize your bikes? 
> With all my previous bikes from Trek and Specialized I never felt this way, 
> they never really encouraged personalization in the same way. 
>

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell tinkering..

[Tom Wyland]

These pictures are great.

I have a feeling that some years in the future we'll see a bike with super 
fat skinwall tires, fenders and drops and be able to place it in the late 
teens or early 2020s.

Tom

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell tinkering..

[Lester Lammers]

1997 picture...priceless. :-)



> 1997:   https://www.flickr.com/photos/24722971@N05/4354670656/
>
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell tinkering..

[Don Compton]

Thanks for your pictures. I recognized Bode. I remember the road to Bode 
from the the highway used to be pretty rough.

On Wednesday, February 27, 2019 at 12:57:33 PM UTC-8, Craig Montgomery 
wrote:
>
> Owen, Deacon, Kiley, 
> You bet. The bikes invite "messin' with." I remember reading the early 
> catalogs where Grant would make suggestions on different ways to set up his 
> designs.  I remember unboxing that brand new '96 All Rounder and thinking 
> "now what the hell can I do with this?" The bike changed over the years 
> through the evolution of riding styles, purposes, and age. And it was a lot 
> of fun, stress relieving, and cheaper than changing bikes. Although I've 
> had dozens of bikes in my adult life, collecting and riding vintage, the 
> All Rounder has always been the mainstay, the flagship, and always 
> malleable. 
> Here's a few major permutations: 
>
> 1997:   https://www.flickr.com/photos/24722971@N05/4354670656/
>
> 2003:   https://www.flickr.com/photos/24722971@N05/3199899065
>
> 2008:   https://www.flickr.com/photos/24722971@N05/3696789561
>
> 2017:   https://www.flickr.com/photos/24722971@N05/24144107988
>
> 2019:   https://www.flickr.com/photos/24722971@N05/47179428032/
>
> Craig in Tucson
>
>
>  
>
> On Tuesday, February 26, 2019 at 5:18:21 AM UTC-7, OwenS wrote:
>>
>> I don't know if it's just me but my recently acquired Clem Smith has me 
>> continually tinkering and tweaking the setup - trying new positions for the 
>> microshift thumbies, different bosco bar heights and angles and it got me 
>> wondering if this has been the same experience for others? Do you find 
>> yourself continually wanting to tweak, modify and personalize your bikes? 
>> With all my previous bikes from Trek and Specialized I never felt this way, 
>> they never really encouraged personalization in the same way. 
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell tinkering..

[R. Alexis]

Craig,

Your Rivendell Allrounder looks great in all its versions. My Rivendell 
Mountain is of the same era. It has stayed mostly the same build since I 
initially built it. 

I see you are running a SRAM X9 rear with what looks like friction dowtube 
shifters. Do the shifters allows you to run through all the gears without 
any special set up? I have thought of using SRAM 1:1 deraileurs with 
standard pull shifters using some pull amplifier. Thought of using a Travel 
Agent to do that. 

Thanks,

Reginald Alexis 



On Wednesday, February 27, 2019 at 2:57:33 PM UTC-6, Craig Montgomery wrote:
>
> Owen, Deacon, Kiley, 
> You bet. The bikes invite "messin' with." I remember reading the early 
> catalogs where Grant would make suggestions on different ways to set up his 
> designs.  I remember unboxing that brand new '96 All Rounder and thinking 
> "now what the hell can I do with this?" The bike changed over the years 
> through the evolution of riding styles, purposes, and age. And it was a lot 
> of fun, stress relieving, and cheaper than changing bikes. Although I've 
> had dozens of bikes in my adult life, collecting and riding vintage, the 
> All Rounder has always been the mainstay, the flagship, and always 
> malleable. 
> Here's a few major permutations: 
>
> 1997:   https://www.flickr.com/photos/24722971@N05/4354670656/
>
> 2003:   https://www.flickr.com/photos/24722971@N05/3199899065
>
> 2008:   https://www.flickr.com/photos/24722971@N05/3696789561
>
> 2017:   https://www.flickr.com/photos/24722971@N05/24144107988
>
> 2019:   https://www.flickr.com/photos/24722971@N05/47179428032/
>
> Craig in Tucson
>
>
>  
>
> On Tuesday, February 26, 2019 at 5:18:21 AM UTC-7, OwenS wrote:
>>
>> I don't know if it's just me but my recently acquired Clem Smith has me 
>> continually tinkering and tweaking the setup - trying new positions for the 
>> microshift thumbies, different bosco bar heights and angles and it got me 
>> wondering if this has been the same experience for others? Do you find 
>> yourself continually wanting to tweak, modify and personalize your bikes? 
>> With all my previous bikes from Trek and Specialized I never felt this way, 
>> they never really encouraged personalization in the same way. 
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell tinkering..

[phil k]

I usually like tinkering on my riv bikes. Not so much on my rando bikes.

On Tuesday, February 26, 2019 at 7:18:21 AM UTC-5, OwenS wrote:
>
> I don't know if it's just me but my recently acquired Clem Smith has me 
> continually tinkering and tweaking the setup - trying new positions for the 
> microshift thumbies, different bosco bar heights and angles and it got me 
> wondering if this has been the same experience for others? Do you find 
> yourself continually wanting to tweak, modify and personalize your bikes? 
> With all my previous bikes from Trek and Specialized I never felt this way, 
> they never really encouraged personalization in the same way. 
>

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell tinkering..

[aeroperf]

I am SO glad you brought this subject up.  It goes to the heart of What 
Makes A Rivendell Bike?

I got my Sam in 2015.  By 2016 I had it set up.  That means - taking what 
came with the bike and making it fit *me*.
Not “tinkering” so much as adjusting, as Deacon Patrick describes.  Seat 
height.  Bar height.  Bar angle.  Pedal type.

With that more-or-less done, came the “tinkering” part - what to change/add 
to make it better, or even more comfortable?
In my case I put a 3-ring front crankset on in 2017, to replace the 2-ring 
it came with.  I called Riv and contacted Will about the rings, so this was 
still a blessed Rivendell Bike set-up.

But I had already begun to deviate.  Black plastic Zefal fenders.  
Expedition EX-1 rack.  Arkle panniers.
I was drifting away from the Nitto racks, Sackville bags, silver fenders of 
a “true” Rivendell.  How far could I go before it became a non-Rivendell 
bike?  Or did it really matter?

Rivendell sells frame sets.  You can put whatever you want on a frameset.
But how many have you seen with a black Sora crankset, 105 brakes, Sora 
rear drive, and (gasp!) SL-3500 shifters on an alba bar?
Does anybody ever do that?  Or do they think it breaks the mold to the 
point that it is not a true Rivendell anymore, and just kind of keep it 
under the radar?

A good read is “Japanese Steel” 
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0847861708/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Another is “Just Ride” 
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0761155589/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

These will fill you in on where Grant Petersen came from and what his 
philosophy (and therefore that of Rivendell) is.

So do I put on the latest Sora and 105 equipment?  Or do I strive to keep 
the classic “Japanese Steel” look with chrome accoutrements?  Because the 
“look” can be as important as the performance.  At least twice a year I 
have people compliment the Sam who have no idea what a Rivendell bike is.

In the end I chickened out.  I got a 1982 Team Fuji, and put all the modern 
groupset equipment on that.  I kept the Sam with a classic look (well, 
technically speaking it is Retro.  *I* am Classic).
How does the whole Classic, Retro, Rivendell, modifications, and tinkering 
go together?

Thoughts?


On Tuesday, February 26, 2019 at 7:18:21 AM UTC-5, OwenS wrote:
>
> I don't know if it's just me but my recently acquired Clem Smith has me 
> continually tinkering and tweaking the setup - trying new positions for the 
> microshift thumbies, different bosco bar heights and angles and it got me 
> wondering if this has been the same experience for others? Do you find 
> yourself continually wanting to tweak, modify and personalize your bikes? 
> With all my previous bikes from Trek and Specialized I never felt this way, 
> they never really encouraged personalization in the same way. 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell tinkering..

[John McBurney]

Wow. Very cool. Thanks for sharing. You must have some great stories to go
with those pictures.

John

On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 3:57 PM Craig Montgomery 
wrote:

> Owen, Deacon, Kiley,
> You bet. The bikes invite "messin' with." I remember reading the early
> catalogs where Grant would make suggestions on different ways to set up his
> designs.  I remember unboxing that brand new '96 All Rounder and thinking
> "now what the hell can I do with this?" The bike changed over the years
> through the evolution of riding styles, purposes, and age. And it was a lot
> of fun, stress relieving, and cheaper than changing bikes. Although I've
> had dozens of bikes in my adult life, collecting and riding vintage, the
> All Rounder has always been the mainstay, the flagship, and always
> malleable.
> Here's a few major permutations:
>
> 1997:   https://www.flickr.com/photos/24722971@N05/4354670656/
>
> 2003:   https://www.flickr.com/photos/24722971@N05/3199899065
>
> 2008:   https://www.flickr.com/photos/24722971@N05/3696789561
>
> 2017:   https://www.flickr.com/photos/24722971@N05/24144107988
>
> 2019:   https://www.flickr.com/photos/24722971@N05/47179428032/
>
> Craig in Tucson
>
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, February 26, 2019 at 5:18:21 AM UTC-7, OwenS wrote:
>>
>> I don't know if it's just me but my recently acquired Clem Smith has me
>> continually tinkering and tweaking the setup - trying new positions for the
>> microshift thumbies, different bosco bar heights and angles and it got me
>> wondering if this has been the same experience for others? Do you find
>> yourself continually wanting to tweak, modify and personalize your bikes?
>> With all my previous bikes from Trek and Specialized I never felt this way,
>> they never really encouraged personalization in the same way.
>>
> --
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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell tinkering..

[Steven Sweedler]

Great history Craig, thats the frame I have coveted the most. Steve

On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 10:19 PM John McBurney  wrote:

> Wow. Very cool. Thanks for sharing. You must have some great stories to go
> with those pictures.
>
> John
>
> On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 3:57 PM Craig Montgomery 
> wrote:
>
>> Owen, Deacon, Kiley,
>> You bet. The bikes invite "messin' with." I remember reading the
>> early catalogs where Grant would make suggestions on different ways to set
>> up his designs.  I remember unboxing that brand new '96 All Rounder and
>> thinking "now what the hell can I do with this?" The bike changed over the
>> years through the evolution of riding styles, purposes, and age. And it was
>> a lot of fun, stress relieving, and cheaper than changing bikes. Although
>> I've had dozens of bikes in my adult life, collecting and riding vintage,
>> the All Rounder has always been the mainstay, the flagship, and always
>> malleable.
>> Here's a few major permutations:
>>
>> 1997:   https://www.flickr.com/photos/24722971@N05/4354670656/
>>
>> 2003:   https://www.flickr.com/photos/24722971@N05/3199899065
>>
>> 2008:   https://www.flickr.com/photos/24722971@N05/3696789561
>>
>> 2017:   https://www.flickr.com/photos/24722971@N05/24144107988
>>
>> 2019:   https://www.flickr.com/photos/24722971@N05/47179428032/
>>
>> Craig in Tucson
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, February 26, 2019 at 5:18:21 AM UTC-7, OwenS wrote:
>>>
>>> I don't know if it's just me but my recently acquired Clem Smith has me
>>> continually tinkering and tweaking the setup - trying new positions for the
>>> microshift thumbies, different bosco bar heights and angles and it got me
>>> wondering if this has been the same experience for others? Do you find
>>> yourself continually wanting to tweak, modify and personalize your bikes?
>>> With all my previous bikes from Trek and Specialized I never felt this way,
>>> they never really encouraged personalization in the same way.
>>>
>> --
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>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>>
> --
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-- 
Steven Sweedler
Plymouth, New Hampshire

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell tinkering..

[Craig Montgomery]

The road was a killer. My buddy was on his Specialized Expedition which was
mounted with Nimbus tires. I think they were Specialized too. Hard as
rocks. By the time we got to the ghost town he had used every expletive in
the book.

Craig in Tucson.

On Sat, Mar 2, 2019 at 6:44 AM Don Compton  wrote:

> Thanks for your pictures. I recognized Bode. I remember the road to Bode
> from the the highway used to be pretty rough.
>
> On Wednesday, February 27, 2019 at 12:57:33 PM UTC-8, Craig Montgomery
> wrote:
>>
>> Owen, Deacon, Kiley,
>> You bet. The bikes invite "messin' with." I remember reading the
>> early catalogs where Grant would make suggestions on different ways to set
>> up his designs.  I remember unboxing that brand new '96 All Rounder and
>> thinking "now what the hell can I do with this?" The bike changed over the
>> years through the evolution of riding styles, purposes, and age. And it was
>> a lot of fun, stress relieving, and cheaper than changing bikes. Although
>> I've had dozens of bikes in my adult life, collecting and riding vintage,
>> the All Rounder has always been the mainstay, the flagship, and always
>> malleable.
>> Here's a few major permutations:
>>
>> 1997:   https://www.flickr.com/photos/24722971@N05/4354670656/
>>
>> 2003:   https://www.flickr.com/photos/24722971@N05/3199899065
>>
>> 2008:   https://www.flickr.com/photos/24722971@N05/3696789561
>>
>> 2017:   https://www.flickr.com/photos/24722971@N05/24144107988
>>
>> 2019:   https://www.flickr.com/photos/24722971@N05/47179428032/
>>
>> Craig in Tucson
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, February 26, 2019 at 5:18:21 AM UTC-7, OwenS wrote:
>>>
>>> I don't know if it's just me but my recently acquired Clem Smith has me
>>> continually tinkering and tweaking the setup - trying new positions for the
>>> microshift thumbies, different bosco bar heights and angles and it got me
>>> wondering if this has been the same experience for others? Do you find
>>> yourself continually wanting to tweak, modify and personalize your bikes?
>>> With all my previous bikes from Trek and Specialized I never felt this way,
>>> they never really encouraged personalization in the same way.
>>>
>> --
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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell tinkering..

[Patrick Moore]

I have to say that I dislike tinkering, in 2 senses: I dislike working on
bikes -- rather ride them, tho' I've been doing deep tinkering since I
built my first bike from scratch in 1970, age 2; and #2, I dislike messing
with a bike once I've got it just right -- the only things that change for
a couple of years after installation are seatpost height (+ or - by a few
mm every couple of years) and drop bar angle (rotate the ends a smidgen of
a degree every year or so) -- but even here, once I get it right, things
stay in place.

OTOH, often *getting* to such ineffable states of perfection take years of
struggle (and expense!); am still fighting in spirit with the Hon Solo --
damned bar mast makes it hard to choose a comfortable bar and, with each
bar on trial, to get that bar where it feels best. Swapped M bar for
cowhorn, back to M bar, then M bar with extender; now to Surly Open bar --
we'll see.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell tinkering..

[John McBurney]

I’ve read Japanese Steel and found it fascinating since it covers the time
back in the mid-60’s and early 70’s when I was coming up and the European
bikes - Raleigh, Botetechia etc were aspiratational and Japanese bikes were
what I, as a high school student, could afford. I may have lusted after a
Raleigh International but a Miyata Pro was more realistic - and probably a
better bike.

Now I have a variety of bikes and love each and every one. But on my
Bombadil with its beautiful lugs and Joe Bell paint job, I truly love the
quality and aesthetics of high end Japanese components - Sun XCD, Nitto,
Honjo. Panaracer (Compass). OMG what wonderful tires!

I might llike it as much much with value based components but probably
wouldn’t love it nearly as much. And to me loving it is what it’s all about
to me.
To me that is what makes it a Rivendell.
John

On Sat, Mar 16, 2019 at 10:38 AM aeroperf  wrote:

> I am SO glad you brought this subject up.  It goes to the heart of What
> Makes A Rivendell Bike?
>
> I got my Sam in 2015.  By 2016 I had it set up.  That means - taking what
> came with the bike and making it fit *me*.
> Not “tinkering” so much as adjusting, as Deacon Patrick describes.  Seat
> height.  Bar height.  Bar angle.  Pedal type.
>
> With that more-or-less done, came the “tinkering” part - what to
> change/add to make it better, or even more comfortable?
> In my case I put a 3-ring front crankset on in 2017, to replace the 2-ring
> it came with.  I called Riv and contacted Will about the rings, so this was
> still a blessed Rivendell Bike set-up.
>
> But I had already begun to deviate.  Black plastic Zefal fenders.
> Expedition EX-1 rack.  Arkle panniers.
> I was drifting away from the Nitto racks, Sackville bags, silver fenders
> of a “true” Rivendell.  How far could I go before it became a non-Rivendell
> bike?  Or did it really matter?
>
> Rivendell sells frame sets.  You can put whatever you want on a frameset.
> But how many have you seen with a black Sora crankset, 105 brakes, Sora
> rear drive, and (gasp!) SL-3500 shifters on an alba bar?
> Does anybody ever do that?  Or do they think it breaks the mold to the
> point that it is not a true Rivendell anymore, and just kind of keep it
> under the radar?
>
> A good read is “Japanese Steel”
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0847861708/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> Another is “Just Ride”
> https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0761155589/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
>
> These will fill you in on where Grant Petersen came from and what his
> philosophy (and therefore that of Rivendell) is.
>
> So do I put on the latest Sora and 105 equipment?  Or do I strive to keep
> the classic “Japanese Steel” look with chrome accoutrements?  Because the
> “look” can be as important as the performance.  At least twice a year I
> have people compliment the Sam who have no idea what a Rivendell bike is.
>
> In the end I chickened out.  I got a 1982 Team Fuji, and put all the
> modern groupset equipment on that.  I kept the Sam with a classic look
> (well, technically speaking it is Retro.  *I* am Classic).
> How does the whole Classic, Retro, Rivendell, modifications, and tinkering
> go together?
>
> Thoughts?
>
>
> On Tuesday, February 26, 2019 at 7:18:21 AM UTC-5, OwenS wrote:
>>
>> I don't know if it's just me but my recently acquired Clem Smith has me
>> continually tinkering and tweaking the setup - trying new positions for the
>> microshift thumbies, different bosco bar heights and angles and it got me
>> wondering if this has been the same experience for others? Do you find
>> yourself continually wanting to tweak, modify and personalize your bikes?
>> With all my previous bikes from Trek and Specialized I never felt this way,
>> they never really encouraged personalization in the same way.
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Rivendell tinkering..

[Toshi Takeuchi]

To me, a Riv, above all needs to be functionally sound and should be
ridden.  You'd want to use stuff that works and will last a while.  Beyond
that, I would say put on whatever makes you happy or whatever parts you
have that are ready to use and ride with.

My custom is a mishmash of high-end mixed with Shimano derailleurs and
plastic fenders, but is perfect and beautiful to me. As long as the bike
gives joy to the rider, then it's a Riv in my book...

Toshi

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