[RBW] Re: What is the *real* purpose of a rear brake?

[Garth]

 
Stating the obvious, the "real" purpose of the rear brake is to be what 
it is, a rear brake . 

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[RBW] Re: What is the *real* purpose of a rear brake?

[Ron Mc]

In a panic stop, all a rear brake does is lock up, and load transfer to the 
front makes the front brake do all the work.  I can remember recently 
stopping a bike in under 4' from about 12 mph.  But most of the time that's 
not what we're doing, and modulating rear and front is giving us feel and 
control on those downhill switchbacks.  Racing is different - by 
definition, it's all the way on or all the way off.  But that's not a ride 
for most of us.  

On Friday, January 15, 2016 at 8:48:48 AM UTC-6, Edwin W wrote:
>
> I remember reading that piece by Jan Heine and was surprised that front 
>> brake stopped quicker than both brakes. A bit counter-intuitive to me, at 
>> the time. Since then I notice that I rarely use the rear brake and seem to 
>> never "need it." 
>>
> I don't do much touring or long rides with long descents, but maybe to 
> distribute the braking and heat production on a long descent?
>
> I will be interested to hear others' opinions.
>
> Edwin 
>

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[RBW] Re: What is the *real* purpose of a rear brake?

[Deacon Patrick]

I can't resist (and can't believe no one else beat me to it. Clearly 
everyone else is smarter than I). The purpose of the rear brake is to back 
up the front brake.

With abandon,
Patrick

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[RBW] Re: What is the *real* purpose of a rear brake?

[Jeremy Till]

1. Redundancy.  I like having two independent systems which can both stop 
the bike, albeit one more effectively that the other. 
2. Ambidextrousness: Sometimes I'm doing something else with my right hand 
(front brake on my bike, I prefer "moto" or "brit" style), like grabbing a 
water bottle or signaling, and still need to slow down, and It's nice to be 
able to do it with my other hand.  
3. Specifically off road, going down rough and steep stuff, I pretty much 
only use my rear brake to avoid locking the front wheel, to maintain 
control authority and it's ability to roll over obstacles.  As a result i 
wear out the rear brake pads on my mountain bike much faster than the 
front, pretty much the opposite of all of my other bikes.  

I will also point out that the rear brake's effectiveness varies based on 
weight distribution.  When I've got loaded rear panniers or the back of my 
xtracycle loaded up with cargo, that rear brake works pretty damn well and 
can slow down the bike quite a lot before it loses traction.  

-jeremy

On Thursday, January 14, 2016 at 9:44:51 PM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> I just reinstalled the rear brake on the '03 Curt, because I wanted to use 
> the 18 t (66") freewheel on the flip side of the rear hub. This is 
> annoying, to me, because I have become so used to the ease of fender 
> installation and wheel installation and removal that you have without a 
> rear caliper messing things up (damned modern complications).
>
> I'm very used to having only a front brake (operated with a right-side 
> lever, of course; what else would you use???) and only install a rear with 
> a freewheel, since I've been told I shall *die* if I don't have a backup 
> brake.
>
> So, is the principal use of a rear brake merely as a backup should your 
> front one fail? Are there other uses? I guess if one is accustomed to 
> taking corners at the fastest speed possible, a rear brake for small, 
> precise speed adjustments without unduly loading the front tire, might make 
> sense; but does this make sense in fact?
>
> My first bike had a freewheel and no brake except my right Ked shoved onto 
> the front tire between the fork blades -- and I rode this thing on steep, 
> winding downhills and in heavy urban traffic. (OK, I was 15.) So a good, 
> solid front brake seems -- dare I say it? -- sufficient. Tell me why I am 
> wrong.
>
> -- 
> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
> Other professional writing services.
> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
> **
> **
> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
> circumference on which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities 
> revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>
> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the 
> world revolves.) *Carthusian motto
>
> *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart
>
> *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: What is the *real* purpose of a rear brake?

[Edwin W]

>
> I remember reading that piece by Jan Heine and was surprised that front 
> brake stopped quicker than both brakes. A bit counter-intuitive to me, at 
> the time. Since then I notice that I rarely use the rear brake and seem to 
> never "need it." 
>
I don't do much touring or long rides with long descents, but maybe to 
distribute the braking and heat production on a long descent?

I will be interested to hear others' opinions.

Edwin 

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[RBW] Re: What is the *real* purpose of a rear brake?

[Bill M.]

On a long descent using the rear brake lets the rear wheel share some of 
the heat load.  A good thing on any bike, even more vital on a tandem or 
when running tubulars to avoid softening the glue.

Redundant brakes are good thing, too.

Bill
Stockton, CA

On Thursday, January 14, 2016 at 9:44:51 PM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> I just reinstalled the rear brake on the '03 Curt, because I wanted to use 
> the 18 t (66") freewheel on the flip side of the rear hub. This is 
> annoying, to me, because I have become so used to the ease of fender 
> installation and wheel installation and removal that you have without a 
> rear caliper messing things up (damned modern complications).
>
> I'm very used to having only a front brake (operated with a right-side 
> lever, of course; what else would you use???) and only install a rear with 
> a freewheel, since I've been told I shall *die* if I don't have a backup 
> brake.
>
> So, is the principal use of a rear brake merely as a backup should your 
> front one fail? Are there other uses? I guess if one is accustomed to 
> taking corners at the fastest speed possible, a rear brake for small, 
> precise speed adjustments without unduly loading the front tire, might make 
> sense; but does this make sense in fact?
>
> My first bike had a freewheel and no brake except my right Ked shoved onto 
> the front tire between the fork blades -- and I rode this thing on steep, 
> winding downhills and in heavy urban traffic. (OK, I was 15.) So a good, 
> solid front brake seems -- dare I say it? -- sufficient. Tell me why I am 
> wrong.
>
> -- 
> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
> Other professional writing services.
> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
> **
> **
> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
> circumference on which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities 
> revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>
> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the 
> world revolves.) *Carthusian motto
>
> *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart
>
> *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: What is the *real* purpose of a rear brake?

[Ryan Ray]

If found that my canti brakes prefer a little rear pressure when stopping at 
the bottom of a hill or to slow me down on long descents.

Disc brake bike manufacturers recommend rear brakeing in order to not stop on a 
dime and damage your fork/spokes too. 

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[RBW] Re: What is the *real* purpose of a rear brake?

[Bill Lindsay]

Devout Socratic that you are, let's answer Patrick Moore's questions with 
questions:

Most fixed riders I know have a rear brake.  That mechanism that allows the 
rider to slow down through the rear wheel is the fixed drivetrain.  In 
other words, you always had a rear brake.  Did you ever use it?  If yes, 
you have removed your rear brake.  Do you feel you've downgraded the 
braking ability of your bike?  Do you want to make up the difference?  If 
yes, put on a rear brake.  If no, leave it off.  

The reason I would never remove my rear brake is that sometimes I brake 
while cornering.  I've learned about the circle of traction, and know that 
the combination of braking and turning forces can cause a skid.  Rear wheel 
skids are scary but recoverable.  Front skids almost always result in sever 
DOG Syndrome (Down On Ground).  If I knew for a fact that I would never be 
simultaneously braking and cornering, OR if I knew that I had absurdly high 
front traction that could never be overcome, then I would indeed toss my 
rear brake for the simplicity and purity of it all.  

Bill Nine-weeks-in-recovery-from-DOG-Syndrome-caused-by-front-skid Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Thursday, January 14, 2016 at 9:44:51 PM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> I just reinstalled the rear brake on the '03 Curt, because I wanted to use 
> the 18 t (66") freewheel on the flip side of the rear hub. This is 
> annoying, to me, because I have become so used to the ease of fender 
> installation and wheel installation and removal that you have without a 
> rear caliper messing things up (damned modern complications).
>
> I'm very used to having only a front brake (operated with a right-side 
> lever, of course; what else would you use???) and only install a rear with 
> a freewheel, since I've been told I shall *die* if I don't have a backup 
> brake.
>
> So, is the principal use of a rear brake merely as a backup should your 
> front one fail? Are there other uses? I guess if one is accustomed to 
> taking corners at the fastest speed possible, a rear brake for small, 
> precise speed adjustments without unduly loading the front tire, might make 
> sense; but does this make sense in fact?
>
> My first bike had a freewheel and no brake except my right Ked shoved onto 
> the front tire between the fork blades -- and I rode this thing on steep, 
> winding downhills and in heavy urban traffic. (OK, I was 15.) So a good, 
> solid front brake seems -- dare I say it? -- sufficient. Tell me why I am 
> wrong.
>
> -- 
> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
> Other professional writing services.
> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
> **
> **
> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
> circumference on which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities 
> revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>
> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the 
> world revolves.) *Carthusian motto
>
> *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart
>
> *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: What is the *real* purpose of a rear brake?

[Patrick Moore]

Well explained, O Socrates! -- the main point being that there are types of
riding on a freewheel bike, and not encountered on a fixed bike, that
require, or at least benefit from, a rear brake, and that mere stopping
distance is not the only factor to consider.

You know, It's been so long since I did long, fast downhills on a bike that
I've forgotten many skills and equipment requirements for these skills.

I've largely concluded that *if* (1) you don't do fast downhills with
corners, and (2) you keep your equipment (notably the cable and its
attachment) in top form, and (3) you are not towing a trailer, and (4) you
are using calipers and not cantis or disks, then you'd be fine with just a
front and a freewheel. Of course, I am so timid on fast downhills that I
could *probably* get away with this, but there is always that very
unexpected decreasing radius or reverse cambered corner that may relegate
all this theoretical justification to the trash can.

On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 10:23 AM, Bill Lindsay  wrote:

> Devout Socratic that you are, let's answer Patrick Moore's questions with
> questions:
>
> Most fixed riders I know have a rear brake.  That mechanism that allows
> the rider to slow down through the rear wheel is the fixed drivetrain.  In
> other words, you always had a rear brake.  Did you ever use it?  If yes,
> you have removed your rear brake.  Do you feel you've downgraded the
> braking ability of your bike?  Do you want to make up the difference?  If
> yes, put on a rear brake.  If no, leave it off.
>
> The reason I would never remove my rear brake is that sometimes I brake
> while cornering.  I've learned about the circle of traction, and know that
> the combination of braking and turning forces can cause a skid.  Rear wheel
> skids are scary but recoverable.  Front skids almost always result in sever
> DOG Syndrome (Down On Ground).  If I knew for a fact that I would never be
> simultaneously braking and cornering, OR if I knew that I had absurdly high
> front traction that could never be overcome, then I would indeed toss my
> rear brake for the simplicity and purity of it all.
>
> Bill Nine-weeks-in-recovery-from-DOG-Syndrome-caused-by-front-skid Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
> On Thursday, January 14, 2016 at 9:44:51 PM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>> I just reinstalled the rear brake on the '03 Curt, because I wanted to
>> use the 18 t (66") freewheel on the flip side of the rear hub. This is
>> annoying, to me, because I have become so used to the ease of fender
>> installation and wheel installation and removal that you have without a
>> rear caliper messing things up (damned modern complications).
>>
>> I'm very used to having only a front brake (operated with a right-side
>> lever, of course; what else would you use???) and only install a rear with
>> a freewheel, since I've been told I shall *die* if I don't have a backup
>> brake.
>>
>> So, is the principal use of a rear brake merely as a backup should your
>> front one fail? Are there other uses? I guess if one is accustomed to
>> taking corners at the fastest speed possible, a rear brake for small,
>> precise speed adjustments without unduly loading the front tire, might make
>> sense; but does this make sense in fact?
>>
>> My first bike had a freewheel and no brake except my right Ked shoved
>> onto the front tire between the fork blades -- and I rode this thing on
>> steep, winding downhills and in heavy urban traffic. (OK, I was 15.) So a
>> good, solid front brake seems -- dare I say it? -- sufficient. Tell me why
>> I am wrong.
>>
>> --
>> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
>> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
>> Other professional writing services.
>> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
>> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
>> Patrick Moore
>> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
>> *
>> ***
>> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
>> circumference on which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities
>> revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>>
>> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the
>> world revolves.) *Carthusian motto
>>
>> *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart
>>
>> *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle
>>
>>
>> --
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>



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Re: [RBW] Re: What is the *real* purpose of a rear brake?

[Justin August]

I prefer the feel of modulating my speed with both front and rear brakes. 
Perhaps it comes from growing up throwing myself down hills and dirt roads 
in the woods of West Virginia on various BMX and Mountain bikes getting 
serious skids and having an extreme fear of going over the bars. As such I 
find the rear brake to be a nice way to easily modulate speed without risk 
of endo as opposed to a method of final stoppage.

-J

On Friday, January 15, 2016 at 10:12:14 AM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Well explained, O Socrates! -- the main point being that there are types 
> of riding on a freewheel bike, and not encountered on a fixed bike, that 
> require, or at least benefit from, a rear brake, and that mere stopping 
> distance is not the only factor to consider.
>
> You know, It's been so long since I did long, fast downhills on a bike 
> that I've forgotten many skills and equipment requirements for these skills.
>
> I've largely concluded that *if* (1) you don't do fast downhills with 
> corners, and (2) you keep your equipment (notably the cable and its 
> attachment) in top form, and (3) you are not towing a trailer, and (4) you 
> are using calipers and not cantis or disks, then you'd be fine with just a 
> front and a freewheel. Of course, I am so timid on fast downhills that I 
> could *probably* get away with this, but there is always that very 
> unexpected decreasing radius or reverse cambered corner that may relegate 
> all this theoretical justification to the trash can.
>
> On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 10:23 AM, Bill Lindsay  > wrote:
>
>> Devout Socratic that you are, let's answer Patrick Moore's questions with 
>> questions:
>>
>> Most fixed riders I know have a rear brake.  That mechanism that allows 
>> the rider to slow down through the rear wheel is the fixed drivetrain.  In 
>> other words, you always had a rear brake.  Did you ever use it?  If yes, 
>> you have removed your rear brake.  Do you feel you've downgraded the 
>> braking ability of your bike?  Do you want to make up the difference?  If 
>> yes, put on a rear brake.  If no, leave it off.  
>>
>> The reason I would never remove my rear brake is that sometimes I brake 
>> while cornering.  I've learned about the circle of traction, and know that 
>> the combination of braking and turning forces can cause a skid.  Rear wheel 
>> skids are scary but recoverable.  Front skids almost always result in sever 
>> DOG Syndrome (Down On Ground).  If I knew for a fact that I would never be 
>> simultaneously braking and cornering, OR if I knew that I had absurdly high 
>> front traction that could never be overcome, then I would indeed toss my 
>> rear brake for the simplicity and purity of it all.  
>>
>> Bill Nine-weeks-in-recovery-from-DOG-Syndrome-caused-by-front-skid Lindsay
>> El Cerrito, CA
>>
>> On Thursday, January 14, 2016 at 9:44:51 PM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>>> I just reinstalled the rear brake on the '03 Curt, because I wanted to 
>>> use the 18 t (66") freewheel on the flip side of the rear hub. This is 
>>> annoying, to me, because I have become so used to the ease of fender 
>>> installation and wheel installation and removal that you have without a 
>>> rear caliper messing things up (damned modern complications).
>>>
>>> I'm very used to having only a front brake (operated with a right-side 
>>> lever, of course; what else would you use???) and only install a rear with 
>>> a freewheel, since I've been told I shall *die* if I don't have a 
>>> backup brake.
>>>
>>> So, is the principal use of a rear brake merely as a backup should your 
>>> front one fail? Are there other uses? I guess if one is accustomed to 
>>> taking corners at the fastest speed possible, a rear brake for small, 
>>> precise speed adjustments without unduly loading the front tire, might make 
>>> sense; but does this make sense in fact?
>>>
>>> My first bike had a freewheel and no brake except my right Ked shoved 
>>> onto the front tire between the fork blades -- and I rode this thing on 
>>> steep, winding downhills and in heavy urban traffic. (OK, I was 15.) So a 
>>> good, solid front brake seems -- dare I say it? -- sufficient. Tell me why 
>>> I am wrong.
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
>>> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
>>> Other professional writing services.
>>> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
>>> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
>>> Patrick Moore
>>> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
>>> *
>>> ***
>>> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
>>> circumference on which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities 
>>> revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>>>
>>> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the 
>>> world revolves.) *Carthusian motto
>>>
>>> *It is *we *who change; *He* remains