[RBW] Re: Why slick tires don't stick well

[Jan Heine]

Thanks for posting your experience. I was mostly referring to behavior on 
pavement, but it's conceivable that the negative tread would help in mud. 
However, it seems to me that the grooves would clog up with mud pretty 
quickly. We should research this further, especially if we ever plan to 
offer a special mud tire.

Jan Heine
Compass Bicycles Ltd.
www.compasscycle.com

On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 4:06:38 AM UTC+9, Ryan Ray wrote:
>
>
>>- *“Negative” treads*, that just cut grooves into the tire, 
>>apparently are inspired by car tires, where they help prevent 
>> hydroplaning. 
>>But even very wide bicycle tires are too narrow for hydroplaning (and our 
>>speeds are too low, too). Perhaps a fatbike with slick tires at 50 mph 
>>could hydroplane…
>>
>> I have not done the research so my account is personal. It sounds like 
> you haven't done research on this yet either though?
>
>
> I just switched from the folding version of the fatty rumpkins (one of the 
> slowest, most long lasting tires you can buy at 650x42) to a pair of worn 
> in BSPs.
>
> Switching from one of the harder, more durable, slower tires you can buy 
> to a pair of worn in BSPs provided a drastic comparison. My heavy steel 
> bike feels like it's gliding. Climbing and descents on roads both seem 
> faster and are more fun either way.
>
> The BSPs are essentially useless in mud or wet sloppy gravel however. The 
> rumpkins not only felt better going over tough roots, but they held far 
> better traction than the BSPs. Climbing in and out of the saddle were 
> really no problem with the rumpkins over the same course.
>
> Perhaps a negative tread pattern like the rumpkins does have 
> some benefits other than being inspired by car tires?
>
> Some possible advantages:
>
> Allows for more long lasting tread on longer tours, but the the cutouts 
> allow the thicker tread to be more flexible and slightly lighter 
> (drillium rubber!).
>
> Allows for a non-trivial amount of grip in muddy, loose conditions without 
> providing a rough road ride or negatively impacting cornering on roads in 
> the way knobs would.
>
>
> The only experiment I can think of would be to ride up the same muddy hill 
> on the same day in the same gear with several sets of tires a 
> statistically relevant number of times while timing the rides and counting 
> slippages. Expensive and time consuming.
>
> Either way I'm probably now a BSP lifelong customer even if  I switch them 
> out for certain rides.
>
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, January 5, 2016 at 6:19:06 AM UTC-8, Jan Heine wrote:
>>
>> Sometimes, it seems that tire tread is just about "design", but there 
>> actually are real reasons why some tires stick better than others, 
>> especially in the wet...
>>
>> https://janheine.wordpress.com/2016/01/05/why-slick-tires-dont-stick-well/
>>
>> Jan Heine
>> Compass Bicycles Ltd.
>> www.compasscycle.com
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Why slick tires don't stick well

[Ryan Ray]

>
>
>- *“Negative” treads*, that just cut grooves into the tire, apparently 
>are inspired by car tires, where they help prevent hydroplaning. But even 
>very wide bicycle tires are too narrow for hydroplaning (and our speeds 
> are 
>too low, too). Perhaps a fatbike with slick tires at 50 mph could 
>hydroplane…
>
> I have not done the research so my account is personal. It sounds like you 
haven't done research on this yet either though?


I just switched from the folding version of the fatty rumpkins (one of the 
slowest, most long lasting tires you can buy at 650x42) to a pair of worn 
in BSPs.

Switching from one of the harder, more durable, slower tires you can buy to 
a pair of worn in BSPs provided a drastic comparison. My heavy steel bike 
feels like it's gliding. Climbing and descents on roads both seem faster 
and are more fun either way.

The BSPs are essentially useless in mud or wet sloppy gravel however. The 
rumpkins not only felt better going over tough roots, but they held far 
better traction than the BSPs. Climbing in and out of the saddle were 
really no problem with the rumpkins over the same course.

Perhaps a negative tread pattern like the rumpkins does have 
some benefits other than being inspired by car tires?

Some possible advantages:

Allows for more long lasting tread on longer tours, but the the cutouts 
allow the thicker tread to be more flexible and slightly lighter 
(drillium rubber!).

Allows for a non-trivial amount of grip in muddy, loose conditions without 
providing a rough road ride or negatively impacting cornering on roads in 
the way knobs would.


The only experiment I can think of would be to ride up the same muddy hill 
on the same day in the same gear with several sets of tires a 
statistically relevant number of times while timing the rides and counting 
slippages. Expensive and time consuming.

Either way I'm probably now a BSP lifelong customer even if  I switch them 
out for certain rides.




On Tuesday, January 5, 2016 at 6:19:06 AM UTC-8, Jan Heine wrote:
>
> Sometimes, it seems that tire tread is just about "design", but there 
> actually are real reasons why some tires stick better than others, 
> especially in the wet...
>
> https://janheine.wordpress.com/2016/01/05/why-slick-tires-dont-stick-well/
>
> Jan Heine
> Compass Bicycles Ltd.
> www.compasscycle.com
>

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[RBW] Re: Why slick tires don't stick well

[Evan Baird]

Obviously removing material reduces the stiffness of the tires contact area, 
and allows it to deform around uneven surfaces. What I don't buy is the notion 
that there is a benefit to directional specific tread patterns. A Pasella is 
the same as a Jack Brown is the same as a (brand x) Panaracer made Clement 
knockoff ect. And that's great, because those tires are all great compared to 
Schwalbe Marathons and Vittoria Randonneurs.

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[RBW] Re: Why slick tires don't stick well

[ascpgh]

Bicycle tires also don't have the wide spectrum of weight and power output 
of vehicles, and picking tires with performance to match is critical. 
Cycling has a narrower  envelope of grip versus wear in which to maneuver, 
tire makers to produce, buyers to purposely choose from and 
journalist/designer/enthusiast/raconteurs  like Jan to differentiate for 
our benefit.

Looking back at some heavy-handed attempts to extend one parameter of bike 
tire performance, the Specialized Turbo Ummagumma compound tires  produced 
in the 1990s rear their carcasses. On several group rides I saw different 
unsuspecting riders slap the pavement when crossing an intermediate trickle 
of water (as opposed to an established, algae-supporting one) in the apex 
of a hairpin switchback. Riding in the mountains you could not avoid that 
scenario and yet these were OEM tires not some self-inflicted specialty 
tire choice of those riders. 

Tread alone was not enough to spare those UG Turbos from the instantaneous 
loss of any grip in the presence of moisture. Usually you make your 
choices, ready for the consequences, but that tire was a horrible thing to 
put on a production bike and into the hands of an average rider of 
unspecified intents or skills. 

A cycling friend (rides a Richard Sachs CX on BG Cypres on our urban 
forays) has a Lotus Elise that requires special tires for even nominal 
everyday use because it is so light on its wheels that typical tire 
compounds never warm to their minimum performance parameters and are 
frighteningly absent of nominal grip.

Andy Cheatham
Pittsburgh

On Tuesday, January 5, 2016 at 11:29:40 AM UTC-5, George Schick wrote:
>
> Interesting.  One additional remark about the tires on racing cars and 
> motorcycles:  They run 'em very hot.  That's why you see the cars swerving 
> from side to side when they're going slow during a yellow caution flag in a 
> NASCAR race, to keep 'em heated up for when the green flag goes down.  The 
> softer tire compounds heat up more quickly, too.  'Course, this doesn't 
> usually happen with bicycle tires, given the slower speeds, etc.
>
> BTW, I seem to recall from the distant cobwebs of my aging cranium an 
> article about tires and tread that Grant wrote years ago in one of his Riv 
> Readers, concluding that any tread on a bike tire was more or less 
> irrelevant due to the small "footprint" of the tire on the riding surface. 
>  I'll have to fish around and see if I can find it, to see what he did in 
> fact say…
>
>
> On Tuesday, January 5, 2016 at 8:19:06 AM UTC-6, Jan Heine wrote:
>>
>> Sometimes, it seems that tire tread is just about "design", but there 
>> actually are real reasons why some tires stick better than others, 
>> especially in the wet...
>>
>> https://janheine.wordpress.com/2016/01/05/why-slick-tires-dont-stick-well/
>>
>> Jan Heine
>> Compass Bicycles Ltd.
>> www.compasscycle.com
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Why slick tires don't stick well

[Mike Shaljian]

303 Aerospace Protectant was recommended by the maker of the Handlebra tape and 
I use it on my waterproof leather, quality product. I have wondered if it would 
be worth it to apply this "sunscreen for your stuff" to tire sidewalls, but 
haven't ever bothered with it. I wonder if it would be effective for increasing 
sidewall life but I'm not sure how frequently you'd have to apply it to make a 
difference.
http://www.goldeagle.com/product/303-aerospace-protectant

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[RBW] Re: Why slick tires don't stick well

[Jan Heine]

As long as the casing isn't fraying, your tires should be fine to ride. 
They won't just rip in half and explode. Deterioration due to UV or ozone 
is easy to see - look at an abandoned bike somewhere, and you'll see the 
"dry rot" on the tires.

Most black tires use more rubber on the sidewalls, which does protect the 
casing, but it also makes them less supple. You could get the same effect 
with brown casings. Functionally, there is no difference between the 
different colors - it's just dye.

Jan Heine
Compass Bicycles Ltd.
www.compasscycle.com

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Re: [RBW] Re: Why slick tires don't stick well

[Patrick Moore]

IIRC, Grant politely disagreed with Jobst Brandt, who dismissed the value
of tread on bike tires, by spec'ing light file tread on tires like the Jack
Browns, saying that this might help on wet roads, and anyway, doesn't hurt.

A very small data point: I recall riding slick 32 mm Fatboys back in the
day. I found those noticeably more likely to skid in wet than the 22 mm
Turbos I also rode back then, these having a slight file tread. Of course,
I stupidly pumped the FBs to the "correct" 110 psi, so that may have had
something to do with their lack of grip on wet roads.

On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 9:29 AM, George Schick  wrote:

> Interesting.  One additional remark about the tires on racing cars and
> motorcycles:  They run 'em very hot.  That's why you see the cars swerving
> from side to side when they're going slow during a yellow caution flag in a
> NASCAR race, to keep 'em heated up for when the green flag goes down.  The
> softer tire compounds heat up more quickly, too.  'Course, this doesn't
> usually happen with bicycle tires, given the slower speeds, etc.
>
> BTW, I seem to recall from the distant cobwebs of my aging cranium an
> article about tires and tread that Grant wrote years ago in one of his Riv
> Readers, concluding that any tread on a bike tire was more or less
> irrelevant due to the small "footprint" of the tire on the riding surface.
> I'll have to fish around and see if I can find it, to see what he did in
> fact say…
>
>
> On Tuesday, January 5, 2016 at 8:19:06 AM UTC-6, Jan Heine wrote:
>>
>> Sometimes, it seems that tire tread is just about "design", but there
>> actually are real reasons why some tires stick better than others,
>> especially in the wet...
>>
>> https://janheine.wordpress.com/2016/01/05/why-slick-tires-dont-stick-well/
>>
>> Jan Heine
>> Compass Bicycles Ltd.
>> www.compasscycle.com
>>
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[RBW] Re: Why slick tires don't stick well

[George Schick]

Interesting.  One additional remark about the tires on racing cars and 
motorcycles:  They run 'em very hot.  That's why you see the cars swerving 
from side to side when they're going slow during a yellow caution flag in a 
NASCAR race, to keep 'em heated up for when the green flag goes down.  The 
softer tire compounds heat up more quickly, too.  'Course, this doesn't 
usually happen with bicycle tires, given the slower speeds, etc.

BTW, I seem to recall from the distant cobwebs of my aging cranium an 
article about tires and tread that Grant wrote years ago in one of his Riv 
Readers, concluding that any tread on a bike tire was more or less 
irrelevant due to the small "footprint" of the tire on the riding surface. 
 I'll have to fish around and see if I can find it, to see what he did in 
fact say…


On Tuesday, January 5, 2016 at 8:19:06 AM UTC-6, Jan Heine wrote:
>
> Sometimes, it seems that tire tread is just about "design", but there 
> actually are real reasons why some tires stick better than others, 
> especially in the wet...
>
> https://janheine.wordpress.com/2016/01/05/why-slick-tires-dont-stick-well/
>
> Jan Heine
> Compass Bicycles Ltd.
> www.compasscycle.com
>

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[RBW] Re: Why slick tires don't stick well

[Michael Hechmer]

Jan's observations on tread design makes a lot of sense to me, and I think, 
having had roly-poly,ruffy tuffy and Jack Browns, (along with Compass, 
panaracer, pari-moto, Michelin, and Schwabe marathon racers, and avoctes) 
that GP believes the same.  The concern I often have with tires, especially 
since retiring, has become sidewall life.  Given that I have three singles 
and a tandem, it takes us a long time to wear out the tread and casing on 
good tires, but I begin to worry about solar driven deterioration in the 
sidewalls.  I don't like to even think about a hi speed front sidewall tire 
failure; but given the price of tires I hate to discard tires with a good 
looking base.  How long, regardless of mileage, can a rider rely on the 
sidewall?

Michael

On Tuesday, January 5, 2016 at 9:19:06 AM UTC-5, Jan Heine wrote:
>
> Sometimes, it seems that tire tread is just about "design", but there 
> actually are real reasons why some tires stick better than others, 
> especially in the wet...
>
> https://janheine.wordpress.com/2016/01/05/why-slick-tires-dont-stick-well/
>
> Jan Heine
> Compass Bicycles Ltd.
> www.compasscycle.com
>

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