Re: [RBW] Re: front deraileur dilemma

[Patrick Moore]

That front derailleur does have an exalted height above the big ring but I
gather that it shifts fine. I've left an LX fd in place when I removed the
out 46 t ring and replaced the middle 36 with a 38; the inner 24 remained.
It must have sat as high over the (now) outer 38 as yours above your outer
ring. I just adjusted the travel limit screw. It shifted as well between
the 38 and 24 as it did before between the 36 and the 24.

My current DA 7402 (I think it's "...02") sits high enough to just clear a
bash guard sized to hide a 46 t ring -- ie about the size of a 48 or so --
so the cage sits high indeed over the 42 t big ring. It still shifts wholly
unexceptionally.

On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 10:12 AM Justus G  wrote:

> While lots of setups work just fine with minor compromises, I have found
> there is an optimal FD setup for 42/44 (even 46) big ring compact gearing
> if we are talking 8/9 speed triple compatible or similar as a baseline.
>
> HyperDriveC compatible old Shimano FDs in the form of XT M737 and LX M563
> (or similar) are short cage FDs so they clear the chain stays and also
> allows you to generally get your FD at the right height above the big ring.
>
> All threads benefit from pics so here is one of my Riv's with a hand
> sanded silver (not by me) NOS LX M563 FD on my 24/34/46t triple:
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: front deraileur dilemma

[Steven Sweedler]

Thanks Bill, the mountain tamer were popular around here years ago, even a
few quads, I am satisfied with my 20 T (58 bcd) to a 34, it usually gets me
up the hill.
Steve
On Tue, Nov 29, 2022 at 12:39 PM Bill Schairer  wrote:

> Steven,
>
> I am using a Silver crank in conjunction with a Mountain Tamer (
> https://abundantadventures.com/mt_triple.html), which can be used with
> any crank without modification with a 74bcd that requires chainring
> spacers.  I have used this set-up on two different tours (about 400 miles
> on GDMBR, 2800 miles riding to Alaska) without any issues at all, which I
> mention as evidence of real world practicality/reliability.  I don't know,
> availability may be an issue?
>
> For kicks, I did experiment briefly with the Mountain Tamer in quad mode.
> It did work but I abandoned that set-up as too fiddly (as I recall, I had
> to modify a Silver bar-end shifter and the cage of a Suntour Cyclone
> derailleur to just barely be able to shift all 4 rings) and it was
> confusing. Now, as I write this, having a 26t between the 34 and 19 on the
> last tour almost makes me think the quad might have been worth it?  The
> 34/19 shift always worked both ways but I didn't really like the jump. Then
> again, I really did need that 19/36 combo, not just once or twice.  Around
> town, as a quad it was total overkill.
>
> I'm one who loves playing with my gearing and hates experimenting with
> handlebars.
>
> Bill S
> San Diego
>
> On Monday, November 28, 2022 at 8:18:23 AM UTC-8 Steven Sweedler wrote:
>
>> Bill what crank are you using that allows a 19 T and who makes the 19 T.
>> Thanks, Steve
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 28, 2022 at 9:58 AM Bill Schairer  wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not sure I understand the "so any older derailers won't work"
>>> comment.  My 2014 Atlantis with a Suntour Vx (from the 70's?) front
>>> derailleur shifts a 42/34/19 flawlessly.  I do use a chain catcher to
>>> prevent dropping the chain going to the 19.
>>>
>>> Bill S
>>> San Diego
>>>
>>> On Sunday, November 27, 2022 at 3:01:43 PM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>>
 Two teeth smaller shouldn't require a repositioning of the mech you
 were using. Did you have a problem with it?

 On Sunday, November 27, 2022 at 2:50:52 PM UTC-8 chrisd wrote:

> Decided to switch to a 42 big ring from a 44 on a Ritchey Logic triple
> CS (44/34/26) on my Rambouillet and tried a Skeleton Key FD but can't 
> shift
> to the granny. My old shimano FD tail barely cleared the chainstay with 
> the
> 44 so any older derailers won't work. Riv says the Skeleton works on
> triples but it's probably something to do with geo on the current
> models.Need a short cage FD. Thought of a mountain FD.  My brifters are 
> old
> Campy so don't have to worry about indexing. Any suggestions?


> --
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>>> .
>>
>>
>>> --
>> Steven Sweedler
>> Plymouth, New Hampshire
>>
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Steven Sweedler
Plymouth, New Hampshire

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Re: [RBW] Re: front deraileur dilemma

[David Person]

I have a 44/28 setup on my Hillborne with a Shimano 105 (FD-5700) front 
derailleur.  I can't set it at the recommended height (1-3mm clearance 
above large chainring) due to the rear of the cage hitting the chainstay. 
 It shifts fine without dropping the chain off the large chainring.  In 
fact, I watched a Park Tool video on proper set up of a front derailleur 
and they state that if the gap between the ft derailleur and large 
chainring is more than recommended it can cause the chain to be dropped 
outboard.  Interesting, when I set up my Disc Trucker with a 42/28 and CX70 
front derailleur, I was able to set the hight as recommended and it caused 
problems with the chan being dropped outboard.  When I raised the 
derailleur to create a larger gap to the chainring, it shift perfectly.


On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 9:39:27 AM UTC-8 Bill Schairer wrote:

> Steven,
>
> I am using a Silver crank in conjunction with a Mountain Tamer (
> https://abundantadventures.com/mt_triple.html), which can be used with 
> any crank without modification with a 74bcd that requires chainring 
> spacers.  I have used this set-up on two different tours (about 400 miles 
> on GDMBR, 2800 miles riding to Alaska) without any issues at all, which I 
> mention as evidence of real world practicality/reliability.  I don't know, 
> availability may be an issue?
>
> For kicks, I did experiment briefly with the Mountain Tamer in quad mode.  
> It did work but I abandoned that set-up as too fiddly (as I recall, I had 
> to modify a Silver bar-end shifter and the cage of a Suntour Cyclone 
> derailleur to just barely be able to shift all 4 rings) and it was 
> confusing. Now, as I write this, having a 26t between the 34 and 19 on the 
> last tour almost makes me think the quad might have been worth it?  The 
> 34/19 shift always worked both ways but I didn't really like the jump. Then 
> again, I really did need that 19/36 combo, not just once or twice.  Around 
> town, as a quad it was total overkill.
>
> I'm one who loves playing with my gearing and hates experimenting with 
> handlebars.
>
> Bill S 
> San Diego
>
> On Monday, November 28, 2022 at 8:18:23 AM UTC-8 Steven Sweedler wrote:
>
>> Bill what crank are you using that allows a 19 T and who makes the 19 T.  
>> Thanks, Steve 
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 28, 2022 at 9:58 AM Bill Schairer  wrote:
>>
>>> I'm not sure I understand the "so any older derailers won't work" 
>>> comment.  My 2014 Atlantis with a Suntour Vx (from the 70's?) front 
>>> derailleur shifts a 42/34/19 flawlessly.  I do use a chain catcher to 
>>> prevent dropping the chain going to the 19.
>>>
>>> Bill S
>>> San Diego
>>>
>>> On Sunday, November 27, 2022 at 3:01:43 PM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>>
 Two teeth smaller shouldn't require a repositioning of the mech you 
 were using. Did you have a problem with it? 

 On Sunday, November 27, 2022 at 2:50:52 PM UTC-8 chrisd wrote:

> Decided to switch to a 42 big ring from a 44 on a Ritchey Logic triple 
> CS (44/34/26) on my Rambouillet and tried a Skeleton Key FD but can't 
> shift 
> to the granny. My old shimano FD tail barely cleared the chainstay with 
> the 
> 44 so any older derailers won't work. Riv says the Skeleton works on 
> triples but it's probably something to do with geo on the current 
> models.Need a short cage FD. Thought of a mountain FD.  My brifters are 
> old 
> Campy so don't have to worry about indexing. Any suggestions?


> -- 
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>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>>>  
>>> 
>>> .
>>>
>> -- 
>> Steven Sweedler
>> Plymouth, New Hampshire
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: front deraileur dilemma

[Bill Schairer]

Steven,

I am using a Silver crank in conjunction with a Mountain Tamer 
(https://abundantadventures.com/mt_triple.html), which can be used with any 
crank without modification with a 74bcd that requires chainring spacers.  I 
have used this set-up on two different tours (about 400 miles on GDMBR, 
2800 miles riding to Alaska) without any issues at all, which I mention as 
evidence of real world practicality/reliability.  I don't know, 
availability may be an issue?

For kicks, I did experiment briefly with the Mountain Tamer in quad mode.  
It did work but I abandoned that set-up as too fiddly (as I recall, I had 
to modify a Silver bar-end shifter and the cage of a Suntour Cyclone 
derailleur to just barely be able to shift all 4 rings) and it was 
confusing. Now, as I write this, having a 26t between the 34 and 19 on the 
last tour almost makes me think the quad might have been worth it?  The 
34/19 shift always worked both ways but I didn't really like the jump. Then 
again, I really did need that 19/36 combo, not just once or twice.  Around 
town, as a quad it was total overkill.

I'm one who loves playing with my gearing and hates experimenting with 
handlebars.

Bill S 
San Diego

On Monday, November 28, 2022 at 8:18:23 AM UTC-8 Steven Sweedler wrote:

> Bill what crank are you using that allows a 19 T and who makes the 19 T.  
> Thanks, Steve 
>
> On Mon, Nov 28, 2022 at 9:58 AM Bill Schairer  wrote:
>
>> I'm not sure I understand the "so any older derailers won't work" 
>> comment.  My 2014 Atlantis with a Suntour Vx (from the 70's?) front 
>> derailleur shifts a 42/34/19 flawlessly.  I do use a chain catcher to 
>> prevent dropping the chain going to the 19.
>>
>> Bill S
>> San Diego
>>
>> On Sunday, November 27, 2022 at 3:01:43 PM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>>> Two teeth smaller shouldn't require a repositioning of the mech you were 
>>> using. Did you have a problem with it? 
>>>
>>> On Sunday, November 27, 2022 at 2:50:52 PM UTC-8 chrisd wrote:
>>>
 Decided to switch to a 42 big ring from a 44 on a Ritchey Logic triple 
 CS (44/34/26) on my Rambouillet and tried a Skeleton Key FD but can't 
 shift 
 to the granny. My old shimano FD tail barely cleared the chainstay with 
 the 
 44 so any older derailers won't work. Riv says the Skeleton works on 
 triples but it's probably something to do with geo on the current 
 models.Need a short cage FD. Thought of a mountain FD.  My brifters are 
 old 
 Campy so don't have to worry about indexing. Any suggestions?
>>>
>>>
 -- 
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>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
> -- 
> Steven Sweedler
> Plymouth, New Hampshire
>

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[RBW] Re: front deraileur dilemma

[ascpgh]

When I converted my TA Zephyr to compact double (46/34) on my Rambouillet I 
switched to a shorter BB spindle that ostensibly set up the problem you 
described more than the reduced tooth count of your 42. RIng position means 
more on my Ram than their diameter. Mine, in a close double on a short 
spindle to reduce the Q-factor by the increased clearance of the big ring 
teeth and the right chain stay, is shifted with an improbable Mavic 860. A 
road racing pro's FD suited for large rings and a max range of 20 teeth.

I agree that on "full sized" chainring combinations, the tail of the FD 
cage has more involvement in physically engaging the chain during shifts 
but the ring size disparities mean nothing if the swing of the cage doesn't 
reach the rings as they are in relation to the seat tube because of the 
narrow Q-factor your bike has. I have a Coast 650B rando with many cues 
from my Rambouillet that has RH cranks (low Q) with 46/30 rings and the 
best suited FD when building up the bike came not off the shelf at the bike 
shop but from my drawer of curated models from the past. A Suntour Superbe 
Pro clearly intended for 53 and 42 adjusted nicely to the rings and has the 
operating range to move the cain to the inner position without concern for 
dropping the chain operated with bar end shifters instead of indexed.

The other thing not yet mentioned is the RIvendell BB drop (amount below 
the line from front hub to rear hub of the BB). Greater BB drop closes the 
angle between the seat tube and chain stay, making the interference of the 
FD cage's tail and the chain stay sooner than a bike with less BB drop. 

Andy Cheatham
On Sunday, November 27, 2022 at 5:50:52 PM UTC-5 chrisd wrote:

> Decided to switch to a 42 big ring from a 44 on a Ritchey Logic triple CS 
> (44/34/26) on my Rambouillet and tried a Skeleton Key FD but can't shift to 
> the granny. My old shimano FD tail barely cleared the chainstay with the 44 
> so any older derailers won't work. Riv says the Skeleton works on triples 
> but it's probably something to do with geo on the current models.Need a 
> short cage FD. Thought of a mountain FD.  My brifters are old Campy so 
> don't have to worry about indexing. Any suggestions?
>

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[RBW] Re: front deraileur dilemma

[Bill Lindsay]

I concur that the skeleton key front derailer turns out to be a "high Q 
factor" or "large front chain line" model.  When used on a skinny tire road 
bike, with a narrower Q factor crankset, it doesn't reach.  

Still, I really liked the cage size and shape, so I went ahead and made my 
own eccentric spacer to pull it inboard, and now it shifts my 
narrow-Q-factor triple just fine.  

Here's the plastic raw material I 
used: https://www.flickr.com/photos/45758191@N04/52444537055/
Here's what the finished spacer looks 
like: https://www.flickr.com/photos/45758191@N04/52444371359
Here's what it looks like with the FD clamped around 
it:  https://www.flickr.com/photos/45758191@N04/52445653361

Here's a link to the entire album, which has some more shots of my setup on 
my small 
lathe:  
https://www.flickr.com/photos/45758191@N04/albums/72177720303067081/with/52445653361/

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Sunday, November 27, 2022 at 2:50:52 PM UTC-8 chrisd wrote:

> Decided to switch to a 42 big ring from a 44 on a Ritchey Logic triple CS 
> (44/34/26) on my Rambouillet and tried a Skeleton Key FD but can't shift to 
> the granny. My old shimano FD tail barely cleared the chainstay with the 44 
> so any older derailers won't work. Riv says the Skeleton works on triples 
> but it's probably something to do with geo on the current models.Need a 
> short cage FD. Thought of a mountain FD.  My brifters are old Campy so 
> don't have to worry about indexing. Any suggestions?
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: front deraileur dilemma

[Steven Sweedler]

Bill what crank are you using that allows a 19 T and who makes the 19 T.
Thanks, Steve

On Mon, Nov 28, 2022 at 9:58 AM Bill Schairer  wrote:

> I'm not sure I understand the "so any older derailers won't work"
> comment.  My 2014 Atlantis with a Suntour Vx (from the 70's?) front
> derailleur shifts a 42/34/19 flawlessly.  I do use a chain catcher to
> prevent dropping the chain going to the 19.
>
> Bill S
> San Diego
>
> On Sunday, November 27, 2022 at 3:01:43 PM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>> Two teeth smaller shouldn't require a repositioning of the mech you were
>> using. Did you have a problem with it?
>>
>> On Sunday, November 27, 2022 at 2:50:52 PM UTC-8 chrisd wrote:
>>
>>> Decided to switch to a 42 big ring from a 44 on a Ritchey Logic triple
>>> CS (44/34/26) on my Rambouillet and tried a Skeleton Key FD but can't shift
>>> to the granny. My old shimano FD tail barely cleared the chainstay with the
>>> 44 so any older derailers won't work. Riv says the Skeleton works on
>>> triples but it's probably something to do with geo on the current
>>> models.Need a short cage FD. Thought of a mountain FD.  My brifters are old
>>> Campy so don't have to worry about indexing. Any suggestions?
>>
>>
>>> --
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> 
> .
>
-- 
Steven Sweedler
Plymouth, New Hampshire

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[RBW] Re: front deraileur dilemma

[Bill Schairer]

I'm not sure I understand the "so any older derailers won't work" comment.  
My 2014 Atlantis with a Suntour Vx (from the 70's?) front derailleur shifts 
a 42/34/19 flawlessly.  I do use a chain catcher to prevent dropping the 
chain going to the 19.

Bill S
San Diego

On Sunday, November 27, 2022 at 3:01:43 PM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote:

> Two teeth smaller shouldn't require a repositioning of the mech you were 
> using. Did you have a problem with it? 
>
> On Sunday, November 27, 2022 at 2:50:52 PM UTC-8 chrisd wrote:
>
>> Decided to switch to a 42 big ring from a 44 on a Ritchey Logic triple CS 
>> (44/34/26) on my Rambouillet and tried a Skeleton Key FD but can't shift to 
>> the granny. My old shimano FD tail barely cleared the chainstay with the 44 
>> so any older derailers won't work. Riv says the Skeleton works on triples 
>> but it's probably something to do with geo on the current models.Need a 
>> short cage FD. Thought of a mountain FD.  My brifters are old Campy so 
>> don't have to worry about indexing. Any suggestions?
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: front deraileur dilemma

[Joe Bernard]

Two teeth smaller shouldn't require a repositioning of the mech you were 
using. Did you have a problem with it? 

On Sunday, November 27, 2022 at 2:50:52 PM UTC-8 chrisd wrote:

> Decided to switch to a 42 big ring from a 44 on a Ritchey Logic triple CS 
> (44/34/26) on my Rambouillet and tried a Skeleton Key FD but can't shift to 
> the granny. My old shimano FD tail barely cleared the chainstay with the 44 
> so any older derailers won't work. Riv says the Skeleton works on triples 
> but it's probably something to do with geo on the current models.Need a 
> short cage FD. Thought of a mountain FD.  My brifters are old Campy so 
> don't have to worry about indexing. Any suggestions?
>

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