subject:"\[RBW\] The Rivendell Ride"

Re: [RBW] The Rivendell Ride

2022-11-18 Thread 'John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch

Rich

Can you share the STA, OD and wall thickness of the main tubes and the 
trail for the Mercian??   Curious as to how they compare to your Rivendells.

I looked at the Mercian 15 years ago and they are very nice frames/forks.  
 The price was good even at the exchange rate then.  Might be better with 
the better exchange rate now

John Hawrylak
Woodstown NJ

On Friday, November 18, 2022 at 9:32:54 AM UTC-5 RichS wrote:

> Paul asked about another bike that rides like a Rivendell. I have a 
> Mercian Audax that was built to my specs with 725 tubing and 650b wheels. 
> The bike rides and handles as well as any Rivendell I've owned. This is 
> completely subjective of course and YMMV.
>
> Best,
> Rich in ATL
>
> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 7:45:42 PM UTC-5 Paul Clifton wrote:
>
>> Chris,
>> I've heard this too, about the trade secret numbers. 
>>
>> It made me wonder, has anyone ridden another bike that rides like a 
>> Rivendell?
>>
>> To me, more-or-less like Joe said, it's nimble handling that also feels 
>> extremely stable. It's easy to change lines around a curve, but it's also 
>> easy to just let the bike hold it's line (straight or in corners).
>>
>> I've ridden plenty of miles on two Rosco Bubbes (MTBubbe and Rosco Bebe), 
>> a Gus, and a tandem. I've ridden a few miles on a too small Clem L and a 
>> Sam. They all handle similarly. The thing that changes is position and how 
>> much bike is out front and how much bike is out back. The Bebe bike, with a 
>> lot of length out front really leads itself through the curves. The Gus 
>> kind of trails behind. But both are absurdly stable. I'd put the MTBubbe 
>> and the Sam as kind of neutral in that respect. I can choose to place the 
>> front or back wheel as a way to pick my line.
>>
>> The only other bike I've ridden that comes close was my Surly Long Haul 
>> Trucker. It was not the same as a Riv, but it was stable, but not nimble 
>> (which may or may not have made me like it more or less). I finally 
>> realized that it was also a size too big, which I suspect has a tendency to 
>> make a bike less nimble - think about how nimble a BMX bike is for a full 
>> grown person ... I traded it for a 1984 Trek 720, which I don't consider 
>> either stable or nimble compared to the LHT or my Rivs. But it's still an 
>> alright bike.
>>
>> But it's gotta be something about the trail and the ratio of rider weight 
>> over the front and back ends. So as rake increases, the rear end might also 
>> increase. I dunno, I'd love to make an spreadsheet.
>>
>> Paul in AR
>>
>> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 6:32:53 AM UTC-6 Chris L wrote:
>>
>>> I remember reading where Grant, or one of his long-term employees but I 
>>> think Grant, said on front end geometry handling there are a few numbers 
>>> they hold to but they don't discuss them outside the shop.  Trail would be 
>>> an obvious one, but I've always thought it would be interesting to hear the 
>>> rest.  Jan Heine gets into what might be some of RBW's other unspoken 
>>> factors in his book on performance bicycles.  
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 10:38:08 PM UTC-6 pi...@gmail.com 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Grant's 1993 Bridgestone RB-1 had a 54mm trail with 25mm tires. The 
 2022 Roadini had a trail of around 58mm but with a 5mm lower BB. The 
 Cheviot (I can't find numbers for the Platypus) had a trail of 58mm with a 
 25mm tire (but obviously few people would run 25mm tires on that bike), 
 but 
 even with a 33mm tire it'll still be a 61mm trail, making the bike steer a 
 little slower but still agile. I had a custom bike built around the 1993 
 RB-1 geometry with a lower BB, and it rides similarly great. Now when it 
 comes to compliance, stiffness, etc., the tubing thickness etc matters 
 more, but in terms of handling I think Grant has it dialed down and you 
 can 
 see that he pretty much keeps all his bikes in the same zone when it comes 
 to trail. The longer wheel base that he's been going for recently adds 
 alot 
 to stability and high speed handling at the expense of packability into 
 bike boxes, which few care about. If you were to buy say, a Craig Calfee 
 carbon framed bike, it actually has a very similar geometry too the RB-1, 
 and rides similarly, but of course being made out of carbon and with a 
 short wheel base and relatively little tire clearance chances are that 
 bike 
 wouldn't appeal to the same people who like Rivendell bicycles.
 On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 6:09:47 PM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote:

> Oh I haven't the first clue how Grant does it. There's something going 
> on with the numbers and tubes that makes them ride like a Harley Softail 
> on 
> the straights AND a Ducati Panigale in the turns. It's bonkers! 
>
> On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 5:51:31 PM UTC-8 J J wrote:
>
>> You hit it on the head, Joe. Thanks for the thread.

Re: [RBW] The Rivendell Ride

2022-11-18 Thread Patrick Moore

IMO, the "signature" ride of at least all the Rivendells I've ridden is the
reason that Grant's designs remain my handling benchmark after almost 30
years and the reason that the 1999 Joe Starck custom is my favorite bike of
all time.

Some of the 5 Rivs I've owned have handled better (to my taste) than
others, but all have exhibited a unique (IME -- I stress this, tho' I've
owned scores of bikes) combination of straight-line stability and unerring
or seamless transition into turns: no "dartiness" on straights or dartiness
*or* hesitation in turns.

One might be slower to turn-in than I liked, another might turn-in too
fast, but none were either "nervous" or "sluggish."

I've sold on all but 1 of the 5: the first-gen Sam Hill  felt too sedate in
handling for a road bike and didn't take tires fat enough for a (sandy
soil) all rounder; also the steering flopped too much on steep, slow
uphills when seated far back and torquing hard at slow cadences -- the way
I like to climb; especially with a large rear load. But again, seamless in
flatland cruising or downhill transition from straight to corner. The Ram
also felt less nimble in turns than I liked -- I like the nimble feel of
light "twenty six inch" (24" to 25 6/10") wheels. OTOH, the first (1994
order, 1995 delivery) custom was slightly too nervous, tho' even this was
stable and predictable compared to other bikes, at least when I was riding
32 mm tires instead of the 22 mm gofast tires of the time. And the 2003
custom had tubing that was too stiff. But all very noticeably had that
Grantian quality.

I compare all 5 with my current Matthews #1 with its 622X 60 Big One,s and
it illustrates by contraries this signature Riv handling. Once you get up
to speed -- 15 mph? -- the Matthews is steady and corners well: it is
stable on the straights and predictable in the turns, tho' neither so
stable straight or so "transparent" in turns as the Rivs. But at slower
speeds it's by comparison noticeably more nervous in a straight line, yet
hesitant then darty in corners. Note that this may be due in large or small
part to the fat, soft 60--62 mm tires at 18-21 psi; if I shod it with 48s
at 27-30 psi it might handle more like the Rivs. But I expect that, with
all the virtues that make it a keeper, it still would not show that
signature Riv handling.

(Matthews #2 is a near-geometrical clone of the 2003 Riv custom and thus
also exhibits Riv-like handling both with 29s and with 42s.)

On Wed, Nov 16, 2022 at 3:41 PM Joe Bernard  wrote:

> This is an edited version of an email I recently sent Grant, I wanted to
> post here cuz I think the magical Riv ride he designs into these frames is
> slightly under discussed..like we all know it and love it, then talk about
> other stuff like paint and parts. My comments are specifically about my
> custom but I've owned a bunch of Rivs and they all ride like this (Clem
> maybe not so light-feeling, but still zippy). Add your thoughts about your
> bikes! :
>
> The handling is amazing. It feels light and zippy, yet absorbs shock
> (there's a lot of shock on these roads) and is very stable. When you put it
> in a turn it goes where you point it and holds the line until you change
> it. It does this when getting bumped offline, too..the darn thing pops
> right back to where it was going! I've ridden a bazillion bikes and nothing
> rides like a Rivendell 🙌
>
> Joe Bernard
>
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> .
>

-- 

---
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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Re: [RBW] The Rivendell Ride

2022-11-18 Thread RichS

Paul asked about another bike that rides like a Rivendell. I have a Mercian 
Audax that was built to my specs with 725 tubing and 650b wheels. The bike 
rides and handles as well as any Rivendell I've owned. This is completely 
subjective of course and YMMV.

Best,
Rich in ATL

On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 7:45:42 PM UTC-5 Paul Clifton wrote:

> Chris,
> I've heard this too, about the trade secret numbers. 
>
> It made me wonder, has anyone ridden another bike that rides like a 
> Rivendell?
>
> To me, more-or-less like Joe said, it's nimble handling that also feels 
> extremely stable. It's easy to change lines around a curve, but it's also 
> easy to just let the bike hold it's line (straight or in corners).
>
> I've ridden plenty of miles on two Rosco Bubbes (MTBubbe and Rosco Bebe), 
> a Gus, and a tandem. I've ridden a few miles on a too small Clem L and a 
> Sam. They all handle similarly. The thing that changes is position and how 
> much bike is out front and how much bike is out back. The Bebe bike, with a 
> lot of length out front really leads itself through the curves. The Gus 
> kind of trails behind. But both are absurdly stable. I'd put the MTBubbe 
> and the Sam as kind of neutral in that respect. I can choose to place the 
> front or back wheel as a way to pick my line.
>
> The only other bike I've ridden that comes close was my Surly Long Haul 
> Trucker. It was not the same as a Riv, but it was stable, but not nimble 
> (which may or may not have made me like it more or less). I finally 
> realized that it was also a size too big, which I suspect has a tendency to 
> make a bike less nimble - think about how nimble a BMX bike is for a full 
> grown person ... I traded it for a 1984 Trek 720, which I don't consider 
> either stable or nimble compared to the LHT or my Rivs. But it's still an 
> alright bike.
>
> But it's gotta be something about the trail and the ratio of rider weight 
> over the front and back ends. So as rake increases, the rear end might also 
> increase. I dunno, I'd love to make an spreadsheet.
>
> Paul in AR
>
> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 6:32:53 AM UTC-6 Chris L wrote:
>
>> I remember reading where Grant, or one of his long-term employees but I 
>> think Grant, said on front end geometry handling there are a few numbers 
>> they hold to but they don't discuss them outside the shop.  Trail would be 
>> an obvious one, but I've always thought it would be interesting to hear the 
>> rest.  Jan Heine gets into what might be some of RBW's other unspoken 
>> factors in his book on performance bicycles.  
>>
>> On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 10:38:08 PM UTC-6 pi...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Grant's 1993 Bridgestone RB-1 had a 54mm trail with 25mm tires. The 2022 
>>> Roadini had a trail of around 58mm but with a 5mm lower BB. The Cheviot (I 
>>> can't find numbers for the Platypus) had a trail of 58mm with a 25mm tire 
>>> (but obviously few people would run 25mm tires on that bike), but even with 
>>> a 33mm tire it'll still be a 61mm trail, making the bike steer a little 
>>> slower but still agile. I had a custom bike built around the 1993 RB-1 
>>> geometry with a lower BB, and it rides similarly great. Now when it comes 
>>> to compliance, stiffness, etc., the tubing thickness etc matters more, but 
>>> in terms of handling I think Grant has it dialed down and you can see that 
>>> he pretty much keeps all his bikes in the same zone when it comes to trail. 
>>> The longer wheel base that he's been going for recently adds alot to 
>>> stability and high speed handling at the expense of packability into bike 
>>> boxes, which few care about. If you were to buy say, a Craig Calfee carbon 
>>> framed bike, it actually has a very similar geometry too the RB-1, and 
>>> rides similarly, but of course being made out of carbon and with a short 
>>> wheel base and relatively little tire clearance chances are that bike 
>>> wouldn't appeal to the same people who like Rivendell bicycles.
>>> On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 6:09:47 PM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>>
 Oh I haven't the first clue how Grant does it. There's something going 
 on with the numbers and tubes that makes them ride like a Harley Softail 
 on 
 the straights AND a Ducati Panigale in the turns. It's bonkers! 

 On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 5:51:31 PM UTC-8 J J wrote:

> You hit it on the head, Joe. Thanks for the thread. With all of your 
> experience on a gazillion bikes, what do *you* think accounts for 
> “the magical Riv ride he designs into these frames”? What makes it happen?
>
> On Nov 16, 2022, at 5:41 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
>
> This is an edited version of an email I recently sent Grant, I wanted 
> to post here cuz I think the magical Riv ride he designs into these 
> frames 
> is slightly under discussed..like we all know it and love it, then talk 
> about other stuff like paint and parts. My comments

Re: [RBW] The Rivendell Ride

2022-11-17 Thread Paul Clifton

Chris,
I've heard this too, about the trade secret numbers. 

It made me wonder, has anyone ridden another bike that rides like a 
Rivendell?

To me, more-or-less like Joe said, it's nimble handling that also feels 
extremely stable. It's easy to change lines around a curve, but it's also 
easy to just let the bike hold it's line (straight or in corners).

I've ridden plenty of miles on two Rosco Bubbes (MTBubbe and Rosco Bebe), a 
Gus, and a tandem. I've ridden a few miles on a too small Clem L and a Sam. 
They all handle similarly. The thing that changes is position and how much 
bike is out front and how much bike is out back. The Bebe bike, with a lot 
of length out front really leads itself through the curves. The Gus kind of 
trails behind. But both are absurdly stable. I'd put the MTBubbe and the 
Sam as kind of neutral in that respect. I can choose to place the front or 
back wheel as a way to pick my line.

The only other bike I've ridden that comes close was my Surly Long Haul 
Trucker. It was not the same as a Riv, but it was stable, but not nimble 
(which may or may not have made me like it more or less). I finally 
realized that it was also a size too big, which I suspect has a tendency to 
make a bike less nimble - think about how nimble a BMX bike is for a full 
grown person ... I traded it for a 1984 Trek 720, which I don't consider 
either stable or nimble compared to the LHT or my Rivs. But it's still an 
alright bike.

But it's gotta be something about the trail and the ratio of rider weight 
over the front and back ends. So as rake increases, the rear end might also 
increase. I dunno, I'd love to make an spreadsheet.

Paul in AR

On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 6:32:53 AM UTC-6 Chris L wrote:

> I remember reading where Grant, or one of his long-term employees but I 
> think Grant, said on front end geometry handling there are a few numbers 
> they hold to but they don't discuss them outside the shop.  Trail would be 
> an obvious one, but I've always thought it would be interesting to hear the 
> rest.  Jan Heine gets into what might be some of RBW's other unspoken 
> factors in his book on performance bicycles.  
>
> On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 10:38:08 PM UTC-6 pi...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
>
>> Grant's 1993 Bridgestone RB-1 had a 54mm trail with 25mm tires. The 2022 
>> Roadini had a trail of around 58mm but with a 5mm lower BB. The Cheviot (I 
>> can't find numbers for the Platypus) had a trail of 58mm with a 25mm tire 
>> (but obviously few people would run 25mm tires on that bike), but even with 
>> a 33mm tire it'll still be a 61mm trail, making the bike steer a little 
>> slower but still agile. I had a custom bike built around the 1993 RB-1 
>> geometry with a lower BB, and it rides similarly great. Now when it comes 
>> to compliance, stiffness, etc., the tubing thickness etc matters more, but 
>> in terms of handling I think Grant has it dialed down and you can see that 
>> he pretty much keeps all his bikes in the same zone when it comes to trail. 
>> The longer wheel base that he's been going for recently adds alot to 
>> stability and high speed handling at the expense of packability into bike 
>> boxes, which few care about. If you were to buy say, a Craig Calfee carbon 
>> framed bike, it actually has a very similar geometry too the RB-1, and 
>> rides similarly, but of course being made out of carbon and with a short 
>> wheel base and relatively little tire clearance chances are that bike 
>> wouldn't appeal to the same people who like Rivendell bicycles.
>> On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 6:09:47 PM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>>> Oh I haven't the first clue how Grant does it. There's something going 
>>> on with the numbers and tubes that makes them ride like a Harley Softail on 
>>> the straights AND a Ducati Panigale in the turns. It's bonkers! 
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 5:51:31 PM UTC-8 J J wrote:
>>>
 You hit it on the head, Joe. Thanks for the thread. With all of your 
 experience on a gazillion bikes, what do *you* think accounts for “the 
 magical Riv ride he designs into these frames”? What makes it happen?

 On Nov 16, 2022, at 5:41 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:

 This is an edited version of an email I recently sent Grant, I wanted 
 to post here cuz I think the magical Riv ride he designs into these frames 
 is slightly under discussed..like we all know it and love it, then talk 
 about other stuff like paint and parts. My comments are specifically about 
 my custom but I've owned a bunch of Rivs and they all ride like this (Clem 
 maybe not so light-feeling, but still zippy). Add your thoughts about your 
 bikes! :

 The handling is amazing. It feels light and zippy, yet absorbs shock 
 (there's a lot of shock on these roads) and is very stable. When you put 
 it 
 in a turn it goes where you point it and holds the line until you change 
 it. It does this when

Re: [RBW] The Rivendell Ride

2022-11-17 Thread Piaw Na

I think there's another factor, which is that he's not designing a bike 
that will be resold in 2-3 years for the latest/greatest gadget. The 
average mountain biker upgrades much more frequently than I do, and gravel 
bikes have evolved quickly as well to try to get people onto the upgrade 
treadmill. You can see road bike manufacturers doing the same thing. By 
contrast a Rivendell is a bike that will grow with you so you'll never 
outgrow it. There's a world of difference between designing a geometry 
that's nice in the parking lot (or one that's tuned for beginners) and one 
that you'll live with day in day out. 

On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 1:08:58 PM UTC-8 Mackenzy Albright wrote:

> I think the reason that Rivendells ride the way they do is the same reason 
> Rivendell will never be financial powerhouse or direct "influencer". Grant 
> is interested in feel, function, and aesthetic balance that  is "just 
> right" counter to any sort of industry "trend" "study" "statistics" etc. 
>
> He'll go down in history as an amazing designer and pioneer as an advocate 
> for many trends. Ie steel, wheel sizes, rim brakes (revival - its 
> happening), and I dare say eventually "wheelbase" will become a hot trend - 
> i am calling it. watch out for specialized "long wheelbase bikes"
>
> Admittedly, going from the original hunqapillar and atlantis traditional 
> triangle frames towards the step through long wheel base bikes, i was 
> extremely skeptical. But honestly they're some of the best feeling bikes 
> ive ever ridden and grown to love them aesthetically. I think the design 
> evolution starting with some of the early bridgestones through time into 
> the current line of bikes makes perfect logical sense. I look foward to 
> every model they release these days. 
>
> It drives me nuts when people call rivendells overpriced 80's mountain 
> bikes or "just get a long haul trucker its just a cheaper atlantis" it's 
> comparing apples to apple pie. 
>
> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 12:54:10 PM UTC-8 Scott wrote:
>
>> Thanks, Randy. After pushing go, I reread your post and realized you were 
>> discussing the Appaloosa. Are they a bit heavy? I've heard same about 2TT 
>> Atlantis.
>>
>> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 12:47:09 PM MST, larson@gmail.com <
>> larson@gmail.com> wrote: 
>>
>>
>> Scott,
>> I have never ridden an Atlantis, but would love to, and believe that you 
>> will love it. Looking forward to hearing your impressions going forward.
>> Randy
>>
>> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 1:41:14 PM UTC-6 Scott wrote:
>>
>> Randy,
>>
>> I'm curious, too, to get the group's take on your question as to weight 
>> vs. ride quality, as I'm currently building a new 62 Atlantis F/F. I'm 
>> wanting to do some dirt touring and bike packing on it. Hope I'm not in for 
>> a fat hog...
>>
>> Scott
>>
>> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 06:55:28 AM MST, larson@gmail.com <
>> larson@gmail.com> wrote: 
>>
>>
>> I built up a 2TT 62cm Appaloosa in February as my first Riv, and have 
>> enjoyed it very much. The over riding impression is that I know that this 
>> is a heavy bike (from lifting it onto my hitch rack), but it rides lively 
>> and relatively light, and comfortable and stable. It is hard to wrap my 
>> head around the contradiction of the weight of the bike vs. this ride feel 
>> and seems to be one of the defining Rivendell ride characteristics from the 
>> opinions of others.
>> Randy in Wisconsin
>>
>> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 6:32:53 AM UTC-6 Chris L wrote:
>>
>> I remember reading where Grant, or one of his long-term employees but I 
>> think Grant, said on front end geometry handling there are a few numbers 
>> they hold to but they don't discuss them outside the shop.  Trail would be 
>> an obvious one, but I've always thought it would be interesting to hear the 
>> rest.  Jan Heine gets into what might be some of RBW's other unspoken 
>> factors in his book on performance bicycles.  
>>
>> On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 10:38:08 PM UTC-6 pi...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Grant's 1993 Bridgestone RB-1 had a 54mm trail with 25mm tires. The 2022 
>> Roadini had a trail of around 58mm but with a 5mm lower BB. The Cheviot (I 
>> can't find numbers for the Platypus) had a trail of 58mm with a 25mm tire 
>> (but obviously few people would run 25mm tires on that bike), but even with 
>> a 33mm tire it'll still be a 61mm trail, making the bike steer a little 
>> slower but still agile. I had a custom bike built around the 1993 RB-1 
>> geometry with a lower BB, and it rides similarly great. Now when it comes 
>> to compliance, stiffness, etc., the tubing thickness etc matters more, but 
>> in terms of handling I think Grant has it dialed down and you can see that 
>> he pretty much keeps all his bikes in the same zone when it comes to trail. 
>> The longer wheel base that he's been going for recently adds alot to 
>> stability and high speed handling at the expense of p

Re: [RBW] The Rivendell Ride

2022-11-17 Thread Mackenzy Albright

I think the reason that Rivendells ride the way they do is the same reason 
Rivendell will never be financial powerhouse or direct "influencer". Grant 
is interested in feel, function, and aesthetic balance that  is "just 
right" counter to any sort of industry "trend" "study" "statistics" etc. 

He'll go down in history as an amazing designer and pioneer as an advocate 
for many trends. Ie steel, wheel sizes, rim brakes (revival - its 
happening), and I dare say eventually "wheelbase" will become a hot trend - 
i am calling it. watch out for specialized "long wheelbase bikes"

Admittedly, going from the original hunqapillar and atlantis traditional 
triangle frames towards the step through long wheel base bikes, i was 
extremely skeptical. But honestly they're some of the best feeling bikes 
ive ever ridden and grown to love them aesthetically. I think the design 
evolution starting with some of the early bridgestones through time into 
the current line of bikes makes perfect logical sense. I look foward to 
every model they release these days. 

It drives me nuts when people call rivendells overpriced 80's mountain 
bikes or "just get a long haul trucker its just a cheaper atlantis" it's 
comparing apples to apple pie. 

On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 12:54:10 PM UTC-8 Scott wrote:

> Thanks, Randy. After pushing go, I reread your post and realized you were 
> discussing the Appaloosa. Are they a bit heavy? I've heard same about 2TT 
> Atlantis.
>
> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 12:47:09 PM MST, larson@gmail.com <
> larson@gmail.com> wrote: 
>
>
> Scott,
> I have never ridden an Atlantis, but would love to, and believe that you 
> will love it. Looking forward to hearing your impressions going forward.
> Randy
>
> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 1:41:14 PM UTC-6 Scott wrote:
>
> Randy,
>
> I'm curious, too, to get the group's take on your question as to weight 
> vs. ride quality, as I'm currently building a new 62 Atlantis F/F. I'm 
> wanting to do some dirt touring and bike packing on it. Hope I'm not in for 
> a fat hog...
>
> Scott
>
> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 06:55:28 AM MST, larson@gmail.com <
> larson@gmail.com> wrote: 
>
>
> I built up a 2TT 62cm Appaloosa in February as my first Riv, and have 
> enjoyed it very much. The over riding impression is that I know that this 
> is a heavy bike (from lifting it onto my hitch rack), but it rides lively 
> and relatively light, and comfortable and stable. It is hard to wrap my 
> head around the contradiction of the weight of the bike vs. this ride feel 
> and seems to be one of the defining Rivendell ride characteristics from the 
> opinions of others.
> Randy in Wisconsin
>
> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 6:32:53 AM UTC-6 Chris L wrote:
>
> I remember reading where Grant, or one of his long-term employees but I 
> think Grant, said on front end geometry handling there are a few numbers 
> they hold to but they don't discuss them outside the shop.  Trail would be 
> an obvious one, but I've always thought it would be interesting to hear the 
> rest.  Jan Heine gets into what might be some of RBW's other unspoken 
> factors in his book on performance bicycles.  
>
> On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 10:38:08 PM UTC-6 pi...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
>
> Grant's 1993 Bridgestone RB-1 had a 54mm trail with 25mm tires. The 2022 
> Roadini had a trail of around 58mm but with a 5mm lower BB. The Cheviot (I 
> can't find numbers for the Platypus) had a trail of 58mm with a 25mm tire 
> (but obviously few people would run 25mm tires on that bike), but even with 
> a 33mm tire it'll still be a 61mm trail, making the bike steer a little 
> slower but still agile. I had a custom bike built around the 1993 RB-1 
> geometry with a lower BB, and it rides similarly great. Now when it comes 
> to compliance, stiffness, etc., the tubing thickness etc matters more, but 
> in terms of handling I think Grant has it dialed down and you can see that 
> he pretty much keeps all his bikes in the same zone when it comes to trail. 
> The longer wheel base that he's been going for recently adds alot to 
> stability and high speed handling at the expense of packability into bike 
> boxes, which few care about. If you were to buy say, a Craig Calfee carbon 
> framed bike, it actually has a very similar geometry too the RB-1, and 
> rides similarly, but of course being made out of carbon and with a short 
> wheel base and relatively little tire clearance chances are that bike 
> wouldn't appeal to the same people who like Rivendell bicycles.
> On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 6:09:47 PM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Oh I haven't the first clue how Grant does it. There's something going on 
> with the numbers and tubes that makes them ride like a Harley Softail on 
> the straights AND a Ducati Panigale in the turns. It's bonkers! 
>
> On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 5:51:31 PM UTC-8 J J wrote:
>
> You hit it on the head, Joe. Thanks for the thread.

Re: [RBW] The Rivendell Ride

2022-11-17 Thread Piaw Na

Weight is always dependent on context. Here are the factors that I consider:

   - The lighter you and your load is, the more weight of the bike matters. 
   My 200 pound friends will never feel the difference between a 17 pound bike 
   and a 28 pound bike, but at 140 pounds, I can tell the difference between a 
   22 pound bike and a 30 pound bike.
   - The smoother the road surface, the more weight matters. A smooth road 
   that encourages close to the traction limit cornering and won't bounce you 
   around means that you value being able to flick your bike around a corner. 
   Off pavement with rocks you're bouncing off of and corners being taken at 
   5mph means that you won't care if the weight causes you to overshoot a 
   little.
   - Load on a light frame will cause more flexiness and disconcerting 
   handling than on a heavier frame. That's a given. Similarly, if you're a 
   high power output rider a frame that's too light will break and not last a 
   long time.
   - If you frequently have to carry your bike up and down stairs and other 
   obstacles weight matters a lot!

I'm light enough that I care about weight, but when I ride the heavy 
triplet (65 pounds) with my 2 kids (100+ pounds of additional load) and 
touring panniers, I am certainly going for "fine close to the traction 
limit" cornering.

On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 11:41:14 AM UTC-8 Scott wrote:

> Randy,
>
> I'm curious, too, to get the group's take on your question as to weight 
> vs. ride quality, as I'm currently building a new 62 Atlantis F/F. I'm 
> wanting to do some dirt touring and bike packing on it. Hope I'm not in for 
> a fat hog...
>
> Scott
>
> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 06:55:28 AM MST, larson@gmail.com <
> larson@gmail.com> wrote: 
>
>
> I built up a 2TT 62cm Appaloosa in February as my first Riv, and have 
> enjoyed it very much. The over riding impression is that I know that this 
> is a heavy bike (from lifting it onto my hitch rack), but it rides lively 
> and relatively light, and comfortable and stable. It is hard to wrap my 
> head around the contradiction of the weight of the bike vs. this ride feel 
> and seems to be one of the defining Rivendell ride characteristics from the 
> opinions of others.
> Randy in Wisconsin
>
> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 6:32:53 AM UTC-6 Chris L wrote:
>
> I remember reading where Grant, or one of his long-term employees but I 
> think Grant, said on front end geometry handling there are a few numbers 
> they hold to but they don't discuss them outside the shop.  Trail would be 
> an obvious one, but I've always thought it would be interesting to hear the 
> rest.  Jan Heine gets into what might be some of RBW's other unspoken 
> factors in his book on performance bicycles.  
>
> On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 10:38:08 PM UTC-6 pi...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
>
> Grant's 1993 Bridgestone RB-1 had a 54mm trail with 25mm tires. The 2022 
> Roadini had a trail of around 58mm but with a 5mm lower BB. The Cheviot (I 
> can't find numbers for the Platypus) had a trail of 58mm with a 25mm tire 
> (but obviously few people would run 25mm tires on that bike), but even with 
> a 33mm tire it'll still be a 61mm trail, making the bike steer a little 
> slower but still agile. I had a custom bike built around the 1993 RB-1 
> geometry with a lower BB, and it rides similarly great. Now when it comes 
> to compliance, stiffness, etc., the tubing thickness etc matters more, but 
> in terms of handling I think Grant has it dialed down and you can see that 
> he pretty much keeps all his bikes in the same zone when it comes to trail. 
> The longer wheel base that he's been going for recently adds alot to 
> stability and high speed handling at the expense of packability into bike 
> boxes, which few care about. If you were to buy say, a Craig Calfee carbon 
> framed bike, it actually has a very similar geometry too the RB-1, and 
> rides similarly, but of course being made out of carbon and with a short 
> wheel base and relatively little tire clearance chances are that bike 
> wouldn't appeal to the same people who like Rivendell bicycles.
> On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 6:09:47 PM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Oh I haven't the first clue how Grant does it. There's something going on 
> with the numbers and tubes that makes them ride like a Harley Softail on 
> the straights AND a Ducati Panigale in the turns. It's bonkers! 
>
> On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 5:51:31 PM UTC-8 J J wrote:
>
> You hit it on the head, Joe. Thanks for the thread. With all of your 
> experience on a gazillion bikes, what do *you* think accounts for “the 
> magical Riv ride he designs into these frames”? What makes it happen?
>
> On Nov 16, 2022, at 5:41 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
>
> This is an edited version of an email I recently sent Grant, I wanted to 
> post here cuz I think the magical Riv ride he designs into these frames is 
> slightly under discussed..like we all know it

Re: [RBW] The Rivendell Ride

2022-11-17 Thread 'Scott Luly' via RBW Owners Bunch

Thanks, Randy. After pushing go, I reread your post and realized you were
discussing the Appaloosa. Are they a bit heavy? I've heard same about 2TT
Atlantis.

On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 12:47:09 PM MST, larson@gmail.com
wrote:

Scott,I have never ridden an Atlantis, but would love to, and believe that you
will love it. Looking forward to hearing your impressions going forward.Randy

On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 1:41:14 PM UTC-6 Scott wrote:

Randy,
I'm curious, too, to get the group's take on your question as to weight vs.
ride quality, as I'm currently building a new 62 Atlantis F/F. I'm wanting to
do some dirt touring and bike packing on it. Hope I'm not in for a fat hog...
Scott

On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 06:55:28 AM MST, larson@gmail.com
wrote:

I built up a 2TT 62cm Appaloosa in February as my first Riv, and have enjoyed
it very much. The over riding impression is that I know that this is a heavy
bike (from lifting it onto my hitch rack), but it rides lively and relatively
light, and comfortable and stable. It is hard to wrap my head around the
contradiction of the weight of the bike vs. this ride feel and seems to be one
of the defining Rivendell ride characteristics from the opinions of
others.Randy in Wisconsin

On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 6:32:53 AM UTC-6 Chris L wrote:

I remember reading where Grant, or one of his long-term employees but I think
Grant, said on front end geometry handling there are a few numbers they hold to
but they don't discuss them outside the shop. Trail would be an obvious one,
but I've always thought it would be interesting to hear the rest. Jan Heine
gets into what might be some of RBW's other unspoken factors in his book on
performance bicycles.

On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 10:38:08 PM UTC-6 pi...@gmail.com wrote:

Grant's 1993 Bridgestone RB-1 had a 54mm trail with 25mm tires. The 2022
Roadini had a trail of around 58mm but with a 5mm lower BB. The Cheviot (I
can't find numbers for the Platypus) had a trail of 58mm with a 25mm tire (but
obviously few people would run 25mm tires on that bike), but even with a 33mm
tire it'll still be a 61mm trail, making the bike steer a little slower but
still agile. I had a custom bike built around the 1993 RB-1 geometry with a
lower BB, and it rides similarly great. Now when it comes to compliance,
stiffness, etc., the tubing thickness etc matters more, but in terms of
handling I think Grant has it dialed down and you can see that he pretty much
keeps all his bikes in the same zone when it comes to trail. The longer wheel
base that he's been going for recently adds alot to stability and high speed
handling at the expense of packability into bike boxes, which few care about.
If you were to buy say, a Craig Calfee carbon framed bike, it actually has a
very similar geometry too the RB-1, and rides similarly, but of course being
made out of carbon and with a short wheel base and relatively little tire
clearance chances are that bike wouldn't appeal to the same people who like
Rivendell bicycles.
On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 6:09:47 PM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote:

Oh I haven't the first clue how Grant does it. There's something going on with
the numbers and tubes that makes them ride like a Harley Softail on the
straights AND a Ducati Panigale in the turns. It's bonkers!

On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 5:51:31 PM UTC-8 J J wrote:

You hit it on the head, Joe. Thanks for the thread. With all of your experience
on a gazillion bikes, what do you think accounts for “the magical Riv ride he
designs into these frames”? What makes it happen?

On Nov 16, 2022, at 5:41 PM, Joe Bernard wrote:

This is an edited version of an email I recently sent Grant, I wanted to post
here cuz I think the magical Riv ride he designs into these frames is slightly
under discussed..like we all know it and love it, then talk about other stuff
like paint and parts. My comments are specifically about my custom but I've
owned a bunch of Rivs and they all ride like this (Clem maybe not so
light-feeling, but still zippy). Add your thoughts about your bikes! :
The handling is amazing. It feels light and zippy, yet absorbs shock (there's a
lot of shock on these roads) and is very stable. When you put it in a turn it
goes where you point it and holds the line until you change it. It does this
when getting bumped offline, too..the darn thing pops right back to where it
was going! I've ridden a bazillion bikes and nothing rides like a Rivendell 🙌
Joe Bernard

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Re: [RBW] The Rivendell Ride

2022-11-17 Thread larson....@gmail.com

Scott,
I have never ridden an Atlantis, but would love to, and believe that you 
will love it. Looking forward to hearing your impressions going forward.
Randy

On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 1:41:14 PM UTC-6 Scott wrote:

> Randy,
>
> I'm curious, too, to get the group's take on your question as to weight 
> vs. ride quality, as I'm currently building a new 62 Atlantis F/F. I'm 
> wanting to do some dirt touring and bike packing on it. Hope I'm not in for 
> a fat hog...
>
> Scott
>
> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 06:55:28 AM MST, larson@gmail.com <
> larson@gmail.com> wrote: 
>
>
> I built up a 2TT 62cm Appaloosa in February as my first Riv, and have 
> enjoyed it very much. The over riding impression is that I know that this 
> is a heavy bike (from lifting it onto my hitch rack), but it rides lively 
> and relatively light, and comfortable and stable. It is hard to wrap my 
> head around the contradiction of the weight of the bike vs. this ride feel 
> and seems to be one of the defining Rivendell ride characteristics from the 
> opinions of others.
> Randy in Wisconsin
>
> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 6:32:53 AM UTC-6 Chris L wrote:
>
> I remember reading where Grant, or one of his long-term employees but I 
> think Grant, said on front end geometry handling there are a few numbers 
> they hold to but they don't discuss them outside the shop.  Trail would be 
> an obvious one, but I've always thought it would be interesting to hear the 
> rest.  Jan Heine gets into what might be some of RBW's other unspoken 
> factors in his book on performance bicycles.  
>
> On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 10:38:08 PM UTC-6 pi...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
>
> Grant's 1993 Bridgestone RB-1 had a 54mm trail with 25mm tires. The 2022 
> Roadini had a trail of around 58mm but with a 5mm lower BB. The Cheviot (I 
> can't find numbers for the Platypus) had a trail of 58mm with a 25mm tire 
> (but obviously few people would run 25mm tires on that bike), but even with 
> a 33mm tire it'll still be a 61mm trail, making the bike steer a little 
> slower but still agile. I had a custom bike built around the 1993 RB-1 
> geometry with a lower BB, and it rides similarly great. Now when it comes 
> to compliance, stiffness, etc., the tubing thickness etc matters more, but 
> in terms of handling I think Grant has it dialed down and you can see that 
> he pretty much keeps all his bikes in the same zone when it comes to trail. 
> The longer wheel base that he's been going for recently adds alot to 
> stability and high speed handling at the expense of packability into bike 
> boxes, which few care about. If you were to buy say, a Craig Calfee carbon 
> framed bike, it actually has a very similar geometry too the RB-1, and 
> rides similarly, but of course being made out of carbon and with a short 
> wheel base and relatively little tire clearance chances are that bike 
> wouldn't appeal to the same people who like Rivendell bicycles.
> On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 6:09:47 PM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Oh I haven't the first clue how Grant does it. There's something going on 
> with the numbers and tubes that makes them ride like a Harley Softail on 
> the straights AND a Ducati Panigale in the turns. It's bonkers! 
>
> On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 5:51:31 PM UTC-8 J J wrote:
>
> You hit it on the head, Joe. Thanks for the thread. With all of your 
> experience on a gazillion bikes, what do *you* think accounts for “the 
> magical Riv ride he designs into these frames”? What makes it happen?
>
> On Nov 16, 2022, at 5:41 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
>
> This is an edited version of an email I recently sent Grant, I wanted to 
> post here cuz I think the magical Riv ride he designs into these frames is 
> slightly under discussed..like we all know it and love it, then talk about 
> other stuff like paint and parts. My comments are specifically about my 
> custom but I've owned a bunch of Rivs and they all ride like this (Clem 
> maybe not so light-feeling, but still zippy). Add your thoughts about your 
> bikes! :
>
> The handling is amazing. It feels light and zippy, yet absorbs shock 
> (there's a lot of shock on these roads) and is very stable. When you put it 
> in a turn it goes where you point it and holds the line until you change 
> it. It does this when getting bumped offline, too..the darn thing pops 
> right back to where it was going! I've ridden a bazillion bikes and nothing 
> rides like a Rivendell 🙌
>
> Joe Bernard 
>
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/48ca3a64-ead6-4542-8cd3-7e0d4bcd5842n%40googlegroups.com
>  
>

Re: [RBW] The Rivendell Ride

2022-11-17 Thread 'Scott Luly' via RBW Owners Bunch

On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 06:55:28 AM MST, larson@gmail.com
wrote:

On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 6:32:53 AM UTC-6 Chris L wrote:

On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 10:38:08 PM UTC-6 pi...@gmail.com wrote:

On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 5:51:31 PM UTC-8 J J wrote:

On Nov 16, 2022, at 5:41 PM, Joe Bernard wrote:

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Re: [RBW] The Rivendell Ride

2022-11-17 Thread RichS

Joe, 

You're absolutely right about the ride characteristics or that ineffable 
"feel" of Rivendells. It only took a few minutes on my Sam to realize that 
magic.
Thank you Grant!

Best,
Rich in ATL

On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 8:55:23 AM UTC-5 larson@gmail.com 
wrote:

> I built up a 2TT 62cm Appaloosa in February as my first Riv, and have 
> enjoyed it very much. The over riding impression is that I know that this 
> is a heavy bike (from lifting it onto my hitch rack), but it rides lively 
> and relatively light, and comfortable and stable. It is hard to wrap my 
> head around the contradiction of the weight of the bike vs. this ride feel 
> and seems to be one of the defining Rivendell ride characteristics from the 
> opinions of others.
> Randy in Wisconsin
>
> On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 6:32:53 AM UTC-6 Chris L wrote:
>
>> I remember reading where Grant, or one of his long-term employees but I 
>> think Grant, said on front end geometry handling there are a few numbers 
>> they hold to but they don't discuss them outside the shop.  Trail would be 
>> an obvious one, but I've always thought it would be interesting to hear the 
>> rest.  Jan Heine gets into what might be some of RBW's other unspoken 
>> factors in his book on performance bicycles.  
>>
>> On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 10:38:08 PM UTC-6 pi...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Grant's 1993 Bridgestone RB-1 had a 54mm trail with 25mm tires. The 2022 
>>> Roadini had a trail of around 58mm but with a 5mm lower BB. The Cheviot (I 
>>> can't find numbers for the Platypus) had a trail of 58mm with a 25mm tire 
>>> (but obviously few people would run 25mm tires on that bike), but even with 
>>> a 33mm tire it'll still be a 61mm trail, making the bike steer a little 
>>> slower but still agile. I had a custom bike built around the 1993 RB-1 
>>> geometry with a lower BB, and it rides similarly great. Now when it comes 
>>> to compliance, stiffness, etc., the tubing thickness etc matters more, but 
>>> in terms of handling I think Grant has it dialed down and you can see that 
>>> he pretty much keeps all his bikes in the same zone when it comes to trail. 
>>> The longer wheel base that he's been going for recently adds alot to 
>>> stability and high speed handling at the expense of packability into bike 
>>> boxes, which few care about. If you were to buy say, a Craig Calfee carbon 
>>> framed bike, it actually has a very similar geometry too the RB-1, and 
>>> rides similarly, but of course being made out of carbon and with a short 
>>> wheel base and relatively little tire clearance chances are that bike 
>>> wouldn't appeal to the same people who like Rivendell bicycles.
>>> On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 6:09:47 PM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>>
 Oh I haven't the first clue how Grant does it. There's something going 
 on with the numbers and tubes that makes them ride like a Harley Softail 
 on 
 the straights AND a Ducati Panigale in the turns. It's bonkers! 

 On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 5:51:31 PM UTC-8 J J wrote:

> You hit it on the head, Joe. Thanks for the thread. With all of your 
> experience on a gazillion bikes, what do *you* think accounts for 
> “the magical Riv ride he designs into these frames”? What makes it happen?
>
> On Nov 16, 2022, at 5:41 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
>
> This is an edited version of an email I recently sent Grant, I wanted 
> to post here cuz I think the magical Riv ride he designs into these 
> frames 
> is slightly under discussed..like we all know it and love it, then talk 
> about other stuff like paint and parts. My comments are specifically 
> about 
> my custom but I've owned a bunch of Rivs and they all ride like this 
> (Clem 
> maybe not so light-feeling, but still zippy). Add your thoughts about 
> your 
> bikes! :
>
> The handling is amazing. It feels light and zippy, yet absorbs shock 
> (there's a lot of shock on these roads) and is very stable. When you put 
> it 
> in a turn it goes where you point it and holds the line until you change 
> it. It does this when getting bumped offline, too..the darn thing pops 
> right back to where it was going! I've ridden a bazillion bikes and 
> nothing 
> rides like a Rivendell 🙌
>
> Joe Bernard 
>
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
> an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/48ca3a64-ead6-4542-8cd3-7e0d4bcd5842n%40googlegroups.com
>  
> 
> .
>
>
>>>

Re: [RBW] The Rivendell Ride

2022-11-17 Thread larson....@gmail.com

I built up a 2TT 62cm Appaloosa in February as my first Riv, and have 
enjoyed it very much. The over riding impression is that I know that this 
is a heavy bike (from lifting it onto my hitch rack), but it rides lively 
and relatively light, and comfortable and stable. It is hard to wrap my 
head around the contradiction of the weight of the bike vs. this ride feel 
and seems to be one of the defining Rivendell ride characteristics from the 
opinions of others.
Randy in Wisconsin

On Thursday, November 17, 2022 at 6:32:53 AM UTC-6 Chris L wrote:

> I remember reading where Grant, or one of his long-term employees but I 
> think Grant, said on front end geometry handling there are a few numbers 
> they hold to but they don't discuss them outside the shop.  Trail would be 
> an obvious one, but I've always thought it would be interesting to hear the 
> rest.  Jan Heine gets into what might be some of RBW's other unspoken 
> factors in his book on performance bicycles.  
>
> On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 10:38:08 PM UTC-6 pi...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
>
>> Grant's 1993 Bridgestone RB-1 had a 54mm trail with 25mm tires. The 2022 
>> Roadini had a trail of around 58mm but with a 5mm lower BB. The Cheviot (I 
>> can't find numbers for the Platypus) had a trail of 58mm with a 25mm tire 
>> (but obviously few people would run 25mm tires on that bike), but even with 
>> a 33mm tire it'll still be a 61mm trail, making the bike steer a little 
>> slower but still agile. I had a custom bike built around the 1993 RB-1 
>> geometry with a lower BB, and it rides similarly great. Now when it comes 
>> to compliance, stiffness, etc., the tubing thickness etc matters more, but 
>> in terms of handling I think Grant has it dialed down and you can see that 
>> he pretty much keeps all his bikes in the same zone when it comes to trail. 
>> The longer wheel base that he's been going for recently adds alot to 
>> stability and high speed handling at the expense of packability into bike 
>> boxes, which few care about. If you were to buy say, a Craig Calfee carbon 
>> framed bike, it actually has a very similar geometry too the RB-1, and 
>> rides similarly, but of course being made out of carbon and with a short 
>> wheel base and relatively little tire clearance chances are that bike 
>> wouldn't appeal to the same people who like Rivendell bicycles.
>> On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 6:09:47 PM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>>> Oh I haven't the first clue how Grant does it. There's something going 
>>> on with the numbers and tubes that makes them ride like a Harley Softail on 
>>> the straights AND a Ducati Panigale in the turns. It's bonkers! 
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 5:51:31 PM UTC-8 J J wrote:
>>>
 You hit it on the head, Joe. Thanks for the thread. With all of your 
 experience on a gazillion bikes, what do *you* think accounts for “the 
 magical Riv ride he designs into these frames”? What makes it happen?

 On Nov 16, 2022, at 5:41 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:

 This is an edited version of an email I recently sent Grant, I wanted 
 to post here cuz I think the magical Riv ride he designs into these frames 
 is slightly under discussed..like we all know it and love it, then talk 
 about other stuff like paint and parts. My comments are specifically about 
 my custom but I've owned a bunch of Rivs and they all ride like this (Clem 
 maybe not so light-feeling, but still zippy). Add your thoughts about your 
 bikes! :

 The handling is amazing. It feels light and zippy, yet absorbs shock 
 (there's a lot of shock on these roads) and is very stable. When you put 
 it 
 in a turn it goes where you point it and holds the line until you change 
 it. It does this when getting bumped offline, too..the darn thing pops 
 right back to where it was going! I've ridden a bazillion bikes and 
 nothing 
 rides like a Rivendell 🙌

 Joe Bernard 

 -- 
 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
 Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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 an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
 To view this discussion on the web visit 
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 .

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Re: [RBW] The Rivendell Ride

2022-11-17 Thread Chris L

I remember reading where Grant, or one of his long-term employees but I 
think Grant, said on front end geometry handling there are a few numbers 
they hold to but they don't discuss them outside the shop.  Trail would be 
an obvious one, but I've always thought it would be interesting to hear the 
rest.  Jan Heine gets into what might be some of RBW's other unspoken 
factors in his book on performance bicycles.  

On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 10:38:08 PM UTC-6 pi...@gmail.com wrote:

> Grant's 1993 Bridgestone RB-1 had a 54mm trail with 25mm tires. The 2022 
> Roadini had a trail of around 58mm but with a 5mm lower BB. The Cheviot (I 
> can't find numbers for the Platypus) had a trail of 58mm with a 25mm tire 
> (but obviously few people would run 25mm tires on that bike), but even with 
> a 33mm tire it'll still be a 61mm trail, making the bike steer a little 
> slower but still agile. I had a custom bike built around the 1993 RB-1 
> geometry with a lower BB, and it rides similarly great. Now when it comes 
> to compliance, stiffness, etc., the tubing thickness etc matters more, but 
> in terms of handling I think Grant has it dialed down and you can see that 
> he pretty much keeps all his bikes in the same zone when it comes to trail. 
> The longer wheel base that he's been going for recently adds alot to 
> stability and high speed handling at the expense of packability into bike 
> boxes, which few care about. If you were to buy say, a Craig Calfee carbon 
> framed bike, it actually has a very similar geometry too the RB-1, and 
> rides similarly, but of course being made out of carbon and with a short 
> wheel base and relatively little tire clearance chances are that bike 
> wouldn't appeal to the same people who like Rivendell bicycles.
> On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 6:09:47 PM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>> Oh I haven't the first clue how Grant does it. There's something going on 
>> with the numbers and tubes that makes them ride like a Harley Softail on 
>> the straights AND a Ducati Panigale in the turns. It's bonkers! 
>>
>> On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 5:51:31 PM UTC-8 J J wrote:
>>
>>> You hit it on the head, Joe. Thanks for the thread. With all of your 
>>> experience on a gazillion bikes, what do *you* think accounts for “the 
>>> magical Riv ride he designs into these frames”? What makes it happen?
>>>
>>> On Nov 16, 2022, at 5:41 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
>>>
>>> This is an edited version of an email I recently sent Grant, I wanted to 
>>> post here cuz I think the magical Riv ride he designs into these frames is 
>>> slightly under discussed..like we all know it and love it, then talk about 
>>> other stuff like paint and parts. My comments are specifically about my 
>>> custom but I've owned a bunch of Rivs and they all ride like this (Clem 
>>> maybe not so light-feeling, but still zippy). Add your thoughts about your 
>>> bikes! :
>>>
>>> The handling is amazing. It feels light and zippy, yet absorbs shock 
>>> (there's a lot of shock on these roads) and is very stable. When you put it 
>>> in a turn it goes where you point it and holds the line until you change 
>>> it. It does this when getting bumped offline, too..the darn thing pops 
>>> right back to where it was going! I've ridden a bazillion bikes and nothing 
>>> rides like a Rivendell 🙌
>>>
>>> Joe Bernard 
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>>> an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/48ca3a64-ead6-4542-8cd3-7e0d4bcd5842n%40googlegroups.com
>>>  
>>> 
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>>>

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Re: [RBW] The Rivendell Ride

2022-11-16 Thread Piaw Na

Grant's 1993 Bridgestone RB-1 had a 54mm trail with 25mm tires. The 2022 
Roadini had a trail of around 58mm but with a 5mm lower BB. The Cheviot (I 
can't find numbers for the Platypus) had a trail of 58mm with a 25mm tire 
(but obviously few people would run 25mm tires on that bike), but even with 
a 33mm tire it'll still be a 61mm trail, making the bike steer a little 
slower but still agile. I had a custom bike built around the 1993 RB-1 
geometry with a lower BB, and it rides similarly great. Now when it comes 
to compliance, stiffness, etc., the tubing thickness etc matters more, but 
in terms of handling I think Grant has it dialed down and you can see that 
he pretty much keeps all his bikes in the same zone when it comes to trail. 
The longer wheel base that he's been going for recently adds alot to 
stability and high speed handling at the expense of packability into bike 
boxes, which few care about. If you were to buy say, a Craig Calfee carbon 
framed bike, it actually has a very similar geometry too the RB-1, and 
rides similarly, but of course being made out of carbon and with a short 
wheel base and relatively little tire clearance chances are that bike 
wouldn't appeal to the same people who like Rivendell bicycles.
On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 6:09:47 PM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote:

> Oh I haven't the first clue how Grant does it. There's something going on 
> with the numbers and tubes that makes them ride like a Harley Softail on 
> the straights AND a Ducati Panigale in the turns. It's bonkers! 
>
> On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 5:51:31 PM UTC-8 J J wrote:
>
>> You hit it on the head, Joe. Thanks for the thread. With all of your 
>> experience on a gazillion bikes, what do *you* think accounts for “the 
>> magical Riv ride he designs into these frames”? What makes it happen?
>>
>> On Nov 16, 2022, at 5:41 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
>>
>> This is an edited version of an email I recently sent Grant, I wanted to 
>> post here cuz I think the magical Riv ride he designs into these frames is 
>> slightly under discussed..like we all know it and love it, then talk about 
>> other stuff like paint and parts. My comments are specifically about my 
>> custom but I've owned a bunch of Rivs and they all ride like this (Clem 
>> maybe not so light-feeling, but still zippy). Add your thoughts about your 
>> bikes! :
>>
>> The handling is amazing. It feels light and zippy, yet absorbs shock 
>> (there's a lot of shock on these roads) and is very stable. When you put it 
>> in a turn it goes where you point it and holds the line until you change 
>> it. It does this when getting bumped offline, too..the darn thing pops 
>> right back to where it was going! I've ridden a bazillion bikes and nothing 
>> rides like a Rivendell 🙌
>>
>> Joe Bernard 
>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/48ca3a64-ead6-4542-8cd3-7e0d4bcd5842n%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] The Rivendell Ride

2022-11-16 Thread Luke Hendrickson


My Monday ride to Olema from San Francisco confirmed the magic of the 
Rivendell Ride over the 80 miles of mixed terrain and 9k in climbing. I’m 
grateful to finally have one.
On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 6:50:47 PM UTC-8 Ryan wrote:

> Yeah...Grant has something going on there that first drew me with the X0-1 
> ...which is like a sports car...and then there is something really plush 
> about the road bike and the A/R I have. Plush, but far from sluggish. I 
> don't know how he does it either , even though he's written about it a lot
>
> On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 8:09:47 PM UTC-6 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>> Oh I haven't the first clue how Grant does it. There's something going on 
>> with the numbers and tubes that makes them ride like a Harley Softail on 
>> the straights AND a Ducati Panigale in the turns. It's bonkers! 
>>
>> On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 5:51:31 PM UTC-8 J J wrote:
>>
>>> You hit it on the head, Joe. Thanks for the thread. With all of your 
>>> experience on a gazillion bikes, what do *you* think accounts for “the 
>>> magical Riv ride he designs into these frames”? What makes it happen?
>>>
>>> On Nov 16, 2022, at 5:41 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
>>>
>>> This is an edited version of an email I recently sent Grant, I wanted to 
>>> post here cuz I think the magical Riv ride he designs into these frames is 
>>> slightly under discussed..like we all know it and love it, then talk about 
>>> other stuff like paint and parts. My comments are specifically about my 
>>> custom but I've owned a bunch of Rivs and they all ride like this (Clem 
>>> maybe not so light-feeling, but still zippy). Add your thoughts about your 
>>> bikes! :
>>>
>>> The handling is amazing. It feels light and zippy, yet absorbs shock 
>>> (there's a lot of shock on these roads) and is very stable. When you put it 
>>> in a turn it goes where you point it and holds the line until you change 
>>> it. It does this when getting bumped offline, too..the darn thing pops 
>>> right back to where it was going! I've ridden a bazillion bikes and nothing 
>>> rides like a Rivendell 🙌
>>>
>>> Joe Bernard 
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>>> an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/48ca3a64-ead6-4542-8cd3-7e0d4bcd5842n%40googlegroups.com
>>>  
>>> 
>>> .
>>>
>>>
>>>

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Re: [RBW] The Rivendell Ride

2022-11-16 Thread Ryan

Yeah...Grant has something going on there that first drew me with the X0-1 
...which is like a sports car...and then there is something really plush 
about the road bike and the A/R I have. Plush, but far from sluggish. I 
don't know how he does it either , even though he's written about it a lot

On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 8:09:47 PM UTC-6 Joe Bernard wrote:

> Oh I haven't the first clue how Grant does it. There's something going on 
> with the numbers and tubes that makes them ride like a Harley Softail on 
> the straights AND a Ducati Panigale in the turns. It's bonkers! 
>
> On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 5:51:31 PM UTC-8 J J wrote:
>
>> You hit it on the head, Joe. Thanks for the thread. With all of your 
>> experience on a gazillion bikes, what do *you* think accounts for “the 
>> magical Riv ride he designs into these frames”? What makes it happen?
>>
>> On Nov 16, 2022, at 5:41 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
>>
>> This is an edited version of an email I recently sent Grant, I wanted to 
>> post here cuz I think the magical Riv ride he designs into these frames is 
>> slightly under discussed..like we all know it and love it, then talk about 
>> other stuff like paint and parts. My comments are specifically about my 
>> custom but I've owned a bunch of Rivs and they all ride like this (Clem 
>> maybe not so light-feeling, but still zippy). Add your thoughts about your 
>> bikes! :
>>
>> The handling is amazing. It feels light and zippy, yet absorbs shock 
>> (there's a lot of shock on these roads) and is very stable. When you put it 
>> in a turn it goes where you point it and holds the line until you change 
>> it. It does this when getting bumped offline, too..the darn thing pops 
>> right back to where it was going! I've ridden a bazillion bikes and nothing 
>> rides like a Rivendell 🙌
>>
>> Joe Bernard 
>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit 
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/48ca3a64-ead6-4542-8cd3-7e0d4bcd5842n%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] The Rivendell Ride

2022-11-16 Thread Joe Bernard

Oh I haven't the first clue how Grant does it. There's something going on 
with the numbers and tubes that makes them ride like a Harley Softail on 
the straights AND a Ducati Panigale in the turns. It's bonkers! 

On Wednesday, November 16, 2022 at 5:51:31 PM UTC-8 J J wrote:

> You hit it on the head, Joe. Thanks for the thread. With all of your 
> experience on a gazillion bikes, what do *you* think accounts for “the 
> magical Riv ride he designs into these frames”? What makes it happen?
>
> On Nov 16, 2022, at 5:41 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
>
> This is an edited version of an email I recently sent Grant, I wanted to 
> post here cuz I think the magical Riv ride he designs into these frames is 
> slightly under discussed..like we all know it and love it, then talk about 
> other stuff like paint and parts. My comments are specifically about my 
> custom but I've owned a bunch of Rivs and they all ride like this (Clem 
> maybe not so light-feeling, but still zippy). Add your thoughts about your 
> bikes! :
>
> The handling is amazing. It feels light and zippy, yet absorbs shock 
> (there's a lot of shock on these roads) and is very stable. When you put it 
> in a turn it goes where you point it and holds the line until you change 
> it. It does this when getting bumped offline, too..the darn thing pops 
> right back to where it was going! I've ridden a bazillion bikes and nothing 
> rides like a Rivendell 🙌
>
> Joe Bernard 
>
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion on the web visit 
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/48ca3a64-ead6-4542-8cd3-7e0d4bcd5842n%40googlegroups.com
>  
> 
> .
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] The Rivendell Ride

2022-11-16 Thread J J

You hit it on the head, Joe. Thanks for the thread. With all of your experience 
on a gazillion bikes, what do you think accounts for “the magical Riv ride he 
designs into these frames”? What makes it happen?

> On Nov 16, 2022, at 5:41 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
> 
> This is an edited version of an email I recently sent Grant, I wanted to post 
> here cuz I think the magical Riv ride he designs into these frames is 
> slightly under discussed..like we all know it and love it, then talk about 
> other stuff like paint and parts. My comments are specifically about my 
> custom but I've owned a bunch of Rivs and they all ride like this (Clem maybe 
> not so light-feeling, but still zippy). Add your thoughts about your bikes! :
> 
> The handling is amazing. It feels light and zippy, yet absorbs shock (there's 
> a lot of shock on these roads) and is very stable. When you put it in a turn 
> it goes where you point it and holds the line until you change it. It does 
> this when getting bumped offline, too..the darn thing pops right back to 
> where it was going! I've ridden a bazillion bikes and nothing rides like a 
> Rivendell 🙌
> 
> Joe Bernard 
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
> .
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> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/48ca3a64-ead6-4542-8cd3-7e0d4bcd5842n%40googlegroups.com
>  
> .

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[RBW] The Rivendell Ride

2022-11-16 Thread Joe Bernard

This is an edited version of an email I recently sent Grant, I wanted to 
post here cuz I think the magical Riv ride he designs into these frames is 
slightly under discussed..like we all know it and love it, then talk about 
other stuff like paint and parts. My comments are specifically about my 
custom but I've owned a bunch of Rivs and they all ride like this (Clem 
maybe not so light-feeling, but still zippy). Add your thoughts about your 
bikes! :

The handling is amazing. It feels light and zippy, yet absorbs shock 
(there's a lot of shock on these roads) and is very stable. When you put it 
in a turn it goes where you point it and holds the line until you change 
it. It does this when getting bumped offline, too..the darn thing pops 
right back to where it was going! I've ridden a bazillion bikes and nothing 
rides like a Rivendell 🙌

Joe Bernard 

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[RBW] The Rivendell Ride

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