Re: [RBW] centerpull recommendations for a sam.

[Patrick Moore]

My experience, which is extensive but not necessarily definitive, is that
centerpulls can be as good as other types of brakes, but that they are not
by any means necessarily better, and that they have been, IME, sometimes
worse. IOW, the type of brake is less important than the quality of it and
hardware, and the quality of the setup.

Two anecdotes: first: I used a Dura Ace centerpull (rebranded Tourney, if
my source was right, who said that Shimano produced these for about 6
months circa 1976 until they decided to jump on the Campy sidepull
bandwagon. At any rate, I'd used these on a commuter (or rather, just one,
the front, since it was a fixie) and found them excellent. But when I used
the same brake on my erstwhile Motobecane Grand Record grocery getter, I
found that slowing from a fast downhill roll with a heavy load was fraught
with peril -- salmon pads; squeezing harder didn't get more braking. I
replaced it with a dual pivot and felt much more secure.

Second: Preliminary: "good" qualifying "brake" involves not only friction
force for a given hand pressure, but also ultimate braking force, and also
modulation. Top line V brakes are as powerful as anything not hydraulic,
but they don't modulate as well as other types. Ditto cable disks. OTOH,
many low profile cantis are just weak, and the Road version of the BB7 that
I used was as useless, no more and no less, as the professionally set up
Mafac cantis (longer arm Tandem version in front) on the Herse (yes,
salmons).

Point of anecdote: in the light of the above, the *best* brakes I ever used
were IRD high profile cantis set up by Riv staff on my erstwhile Sam Hill:
as powerful as V brakes, modulated better than anything else I've used.

Overall point: don't sweat the kind of brake unless what you are using is
ineffective. Save you Xmas points for something useful like leather or
tweed fender flaps (or a pair of $500 plastic sunglasses). *Just* kidding
about the flaps and glasses, but you get my point.

On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 3:48 PM, drew  wrote:

> so. it's nearing the holiday season. people are asking me what i want, and
> this is usually where i ask for bikey stuff, but currently the bikes are
> all in pretty good shape. not a lot to work on. no accessories needed etc.
> not a bad situation to be in. after consistent prodding for gift ideas, i
> have reverted back to an old idea of switch the sam over from silver
> sidepulls to centerpulls.  far from a necessary swap, but something to
> think about and do.  my understanding is that the good ones can stop better
> than sidepulls and the aesthetics are nicer in my opinion.
>
> ive only ever run canti's, sidepulls or cheap vintage centerpulls. so,
> what do you like and why?  im only familiar with the paul racers and the VO
> ones? what else is out there i should consider. ORRR is this not worth it
> at all and i should ask for money ill spend on groceries and paying bills.
>
> also, for context. this is for a sam running 700x50 tires w/o fenders.
>
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*
*The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
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[RBW] centerpull recommendations for a sam.

[drew]

so. it's nearing the holiday season. people are asking me what i want, and 
this is usually where i ask for bikey stuff, but currently the bikes are 
all in pretty good shape. not a lot to work on. no accessories needed etc. 
not a bad situation to be in. after consistent prodding for gift ideas, i 
have reverted back to an old idea of switch the sam over from silver 
sidepulls to centerpulls.  far from a necessary swap, but something to 
think about and do.  my understanding is that the good ones can stop better 
than sidepulls and the aesthetics are nicer in my opinion. 

ive only ever run canti's, sidepulls or cheap vintage centerpulls. so, what 
do you like and why?  im only familiar with the paul racers and the VO 
ones? what else is out there i should consider. ORRR is this not worth it 
at all and i should ask for money ill spend on groceries and paying bills. 

also, for context. this is for a sam running 700x50 tires w/o fenders. 

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Re: [RBW] centerpull recommendations for a sam.

[Tim Gavin]

I agree with Patrick M that centerpulls aren't necessarily going to give
you better braking than sidepulls.  In my experience, the braking from Paul
Racers on my Riv Road/650b was just as "meh" as the braking with R559
dual-pivot sidepulls.  OK, but not exceptional, on both counts (with new KS
pads, of course).

But, the centerpulls have a clear advantage in fender clearance.  The arms
don't intrude upon fender space as much as the arms of the R559 did.

If you can get 700 x 50 plus fenders under your R559s, I don't see where
centerpulls would be a practical upgrade for you.  They do look nice and
symmetrical, though.

On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 4:58 PM, Patrick Moore  wrote:

> My experience, which is extensive but not necessarily definitive, is that
> centerpulls can be as good as other types of brakes, but that they are not
> by any means necessarily better, and that they have been, IME, sometimes
> worse. IOW, the type of brake is less important than the quality of it and
> hardware, and the quality of the setup.
>
> Two anecdotes: first: I used a Dura Ace centerpull (rebranded Tourney, if
> my source was right, who said that Shimano produced these for about 6
> months circa 1976 until they decided to jump on the Campy sidepull
> bandwagon. At any rate, I'd used these on a commuter (or rather, just one,
> the front, since it was a fixie) and found them excellent. But when I used
> the same brake on my erstwhile Motobecane Grand Record grocery getter, I
> found that slowing from a fast downhill roll with a heavy load was fraught
> with peril -- salmon pads; squeezing harder didn't get more braking. I
> replaced it with a dual pivot and felt much more secure.
>
> Second: Preliminary: "good" qualifying "brake" involves not only friction
> force for a given hand pressure, but also ultimate braking force, and also
> modulation. Top line V brakes are as powerful as anything not hydraulic,
> but they don't modulate as well as other types. Ditto cable disks. OTOH,
> many low profile cantis are just weak, and the Road version of the BB7 that
> I used was as useless, no more and no less, as the professionally set up
> Mafac cantis (longer arm Tandem version in front) on the Herse (yes,
> salmons).
>
> Point of anecdote: in the light of the above, the *best* brakes I ever
> used were IRD high profile cantis set up by Riv staff on my erstwhile Sam
> Hill: as powerful as V brakes, modulated better than anything else I've
> used.
>
> Overall point: don't sweat the kind of brake unless what you are using is
> ineffective. Save you Xmas points for something useful like leather or
> tweed fender flaps (or a pair of $500 plastic sunglasses). *Just* kidding
> about the flaps and glasses, but you get my point.
>
> On Mon, Nov 23, 2015 at 3:48 PM, drew  wrote:
>
>> so. it's nearing the holiday season. people are asking me what i want,
>> and this is usually where i ask for bikey stuff, but currently the bikes
>> are all in pretty good shape. not a lot to work on. no accessories needed
>> etc. not a bad situation to be in. after consistent prodding for gift
>> ideas, i have reverted back to an old idea of switch the sam over from
>> silver sidepulls to centerpulls.  far from a necessary swap, but something
>> to think about and do.  my understanding is that the good ones can stop
>> better than sidepulls and the aesthetics are nicer in my opinion.
>>
>> ive only ever run canti's, sidepulls or cheap vintage centerpulls. so,
>> what do you like and why?  im only familiar with the paul racers and the VO
>> ones? what else is out there i should consider. ORRR is this not worth it
>> at all and i should ask for money ill spend on groceries and paying bills.
>>
>> also, for context. this is for a sam running 700x50 tires w/o fenders.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
> Other professional writing services.
> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
>
> *
> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
> circumference on the rim of which all conditions, distinctions, and
> individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>
> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* Carthusian motto
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> 

[RBW] centerpull recommendations for a sam.

[Philip Kim]

Hi Drew, use to have a Sam. Ive used dia compe centerpulls, Paul racers, and 
tektro 559s. 

Dia compe were a bit mushy. Tektro 559s were easiest to set up, and I like the 
quick release for bigger tires. But braking power was still weak.I switched to 
Kool Stop, which made it better, but not as well as my Paul Touring Canti bike. 
Had a few times going downhill in the city with high traffic that was not 
confidence-inspiring.

I moat recebtly had the Paul's on my Sam. They are my favorite of the three. 

Braking is very noticeable improvement. Glad to spend extra money for brakes, 
as they can sometimes be the difference in an unexpected collision (DC drivers 
are not the best at looking in the bike lane before turning).

Sold my Sam but moving the Paul's to my Soma San Marcos. Also acquired a 
Cheviot. Putting Paul Racer on the front, and 559s on the back, mainly to not 
have to deal with setting up the extra long straddle cable.

There's a reason why a lot of the staff bikes have Paul Racers on them.

You can easily make up the cost by getting cheaper derailleurs 
(deore/altus/claris) and cheaper crankset (Riv sugino) and cheaper stem and 
cheaper seat post.

Hope that helps.

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[RBW] centerpull recommendations for a sam.

[Philip Kim]

But again, a lot of riv staff bikes also have silvers.

If they don't give you trouble, then keep them.

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