Re: [RBW] Re: Bike Makeover Thread

[Patrick Moore]

But I'm 68 ("and a half," as small children like to insist) ?

Patrick "thy youth shall be renewed like the eagle's" Moore

On Sun, Oct 15, 2023 at 5:25 PM George Schick  wrote:

> Well Patrick, I can only say that I beckon back to a TV broadcast of a
> professional bowling tournament in the early 70's where one of the
> contestants was delivering the ball to the lane with his left leg ending up
> in a more or less vertical stance.  When the play-by-play announcer asked
> the "color announcer" (a former professional bowler) about that kind of
> delivery, the former professional bowler said, "...his youth allows him to
> get away with it..."  Sure enough, that bowler was never again seen on the
> bowling circuit again.
>
> And so it is with this pedaling and seat-back business under discussion
> here:  One's youth might allow one to get away with muscling into fast road
> riding, steep climbs, etc. at a strong rate, but it's not likely to last
> much into one's older years.
>
> On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 6:09:32 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>> One more remark. About 20 years ago when I was in my youthful late 40s I
>> happened across a retired man who'd set up a sort of casual bike museum
>> here in ABQ; can't remember his name or the location, but he had all sorts
>> of nice old school road bikes; was it he or was it Dick "Call me Mister"
>> Hallet of erstwhile local World Champion Bicycles who had an actual Reg
>> Harris track bike on display?
>>
>> At any rate, this man, probably then younger than I am now, but at least
>> early 60s, was a short, slight fellow; perfect spinner type, you'd say.
>> Nope, he had a 56T outer ring on his bike, IIRC, and when I remarked on it
>> he told us with enthusiasm that he liked torquing that monster over at low
>> r's pm.
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 15, 2023 at 5:03 PM Patrick Moore  wrote:
>>
>>> George: Physiologies and psychologies differ considerably among riders.
>>> Me, I *like* standing and torquing up hills; I used to do this when
>>> climbing a local 7-mile hill on a 70" or 75" fixed gear: stand for
>>> half-a-mile-to-a-full-mile, sit for 30 seconds and strain your knees while
>>>  resting your lungs, then repeat. Even now in my decripit old age, I still
>>> prefer to torque at slow r's pm than to get breathless spinning a
>>> no-resistance gear.
>>>
>>> Neither is "better" for us recreational riders, as far as I can tell.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Oct 15, 2023 at 4:43 PM George Schick  wrote:
>>>
 It kinda reminds me of a Star Trek episode in the first of the TV 60's
 series of the show entitled "A Taste of Armageddon" where the Enterprise
 has sent a landing party down to a planet that observes "theoretical
 warfare" against another planet in their solar system:

-

Spock  : [after
hearing Anan 7 explain their system of computerized warfare]  There
is a certain scientific logic about it.

Anan 7  : I'm glad
you approve.

Spock  : I do
*not* approve. I *understand*.
-

Ergo, I understand, but I do not necessarily approve of your method
of pedaling.  Seems to me like, when you have to stand up on a hill, 
 it's
like you're carrying two heavy bags of groceries up the stairs to a 
 4-story
walk-up apartment, stomping on each step as you go, suffering.
-

Whereas, those who ride road bikes with drop bars lean forward on
the grips of their handbrakes and stand on up on their pedals in a 
 smooth
back and forth motion like "dancing" (I really like Garth's analogy 
 about
that!) moving their body weight forward while gripping on the brake 
 lever
covers of their drop bars so they can easily shift their weight from 
 side
to side while climbing.
-

'Course, there are also those who zoom up those slopes while
seated, spinning their pedals at very high cadences, but I always assume
they've been regulars at gym spin classes.

 On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 5:18:31 PM UTC-5 Bicycle Belle Ding
 Ding! wrote:

> George, lol, that IS what I do. And I never knew there was really any
> other way! I dislike the feeling of spinning. It feels wobbly and out of
> control. So I don’t - I just leave it in the “hard” gear. BUT, I do shift
> to an easier one at stop signs now. My knees were killing me tryng to race
> up to speed from a dead stop and I didn’t want to hold up the riders 
> behind
> me. But you are probably right about my riding style. Huh. I never thought
> about it.
>
> Max - hearts are coming out of my eyes looking at the yellow
> bike!! What a lucky woman is yours!!
>
> On Oct 15, 2023, at 5:03 PM, Ge

Re: [RBW] Re: Bike Makeover Thread

[Garth]

Leah, you feel "wobbly" because you're too far back relative to the bottom 
bracket. Hence, you "mash" because that position leaves you no choice. It's 
not "just your style", it's what that setup allows for. For fun, sit in a 
chair, extend your legs so that your calves are 90 degrees relative to your 
thighs. Now try mimicking pedaling, or try to stand up. You wobble trying 
to pedal and your strain to get up. Now scoot your feet towards you, say 45 
degrees, so you feel you can literally lift off out of the chair(and you 
can). It's no different than doing a squat, there is a sweet spot of 
balance and power in doing that. If you're too far back you cant use your 
muscles effectively as you're imbalanced. Bikes are no different in that 
way.

I wish you'd hop on someone's road bike and could experience what it's like 
being much more forward over the BB with a narrower saddle and having your 
hips unencumbered, that's really the best way to experience an "ahaa !" 
moment of getting it. It's a night and day difference from where you are. 
Actually I do think your Platy would fit you better with drop bars as once 
you're centered over the BB you'll have no problem dialing in the bar 
height and reach without resorting to extremes. 


In reference to George's comments, no flames here !  We're here to discuss 
stuff, you know ? 
Sitting and spinning uphill *effectively and efficiently*(regardless of the 
rpm's) for my experience is a matter of positioning and having the proper 
fitting of cranks that suit the rider. I've gone from being too far back 
and having to stand the whole time to get me over the BB, to being able to 
pedal seated the whole time by changing saddles and moving it forward by at 
30mm+ so far and going back to low positioned drop bars, about 2-1/2-3 
inches below saddle height. Sometimes I feel like a baby goat you see in 
those videos hoping up and down on the ground legs flailing because my legs 
are so free to literally bounce up and down with such ease. it really is 
marvelous. I can't believe I used to ride so far back and how inefficient 
it was. While yes I can spin on lesser grades now, on steeper grades the 
rpm's will slow, but still, even at a low rpm I'm doing it effectively and 
efficiently, unlike before being too far back. When I say efficient and 
effect, I mean that I can do repeated efforts and they don't wear me down 
like they formerly did during a ride. Day to day I never have any lingering 
soreness now either, even after very hilly rides that formerly wiped me out 
the next day. 



 
On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 6:18:31 PM UTC-4 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:

> George, lol, that IS what I do. And I never knew there was really any 
> other way! I dislike the feeling of spinning. It feels wobbly and out of 
> control. So I don’t - I just leave it in the “hard” gear. BUT, I do shift 
> to an easier one at stop signs now. My knees were killing me tryng to race 
> up to speed from a dead stop and I didn’t want to hold up the riders behind 
> me. But you are probably right about my riding style. Huh. I never thought 
> about it.
>
> Max - hearts are coming out of my eyes looking at the yellow bike!! 
> What a lucky woman is yours!!
>
> On Oct 15, 2023, at 5:03 PM, George Schick  wrote:
>
> I'll probably get clobbered for my reply to this discussion - I'm used to 
> it - but from viewing the pics of Leah's bikes in this thread plus others 
> in previous threads, her bike always seems to be either in the highest gear 
> or at least the next to highest. And she has admitted to as much in 
> previous discussions that's how she likes it. And since she likes the 
> saddle moved as far as possible to the rear this means that she's using the 
> leverage of that angle while pulling back on the bar grips in order to 
> "stomp" as hard as possible on the pedals.  Since she has the leg 
> development and strength to get away with that kind of riding due to her 
> weight training and other off-bike workouts, that's just how she's using to 
> riding.
>
>
> Many of the rest of us old farts who learned road riding on a 
> diamond-framed bike with drop bars, having the saddle positioned more 
> closely to the center of the BB so we could "spin" the pedals at as high a 
> cadence (RPM) as possible, shifting gears when necessary in order to 
> maintain that cadence (which is how I assume the pro racers still learn to 
> ride).  Which is probably why she gets some sideways looks by others in the 
> pace lines of her bike club.  That's not how she's learned to ride for 
> whatever reason, so fiddling around with saddle position is likely to be a 
> problem, or as least a considerable adjustment for her.  Anyway, that's my 
> 2¢.
>
> On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 3:27:57 PM UTC-5 John Hawrylak, Woodstown 
> NJ wrote:
>
>> Ok, I understand
>>
>> Moving the saddle back increases the saddle to bar distance by about 
>> 2.5cm.  This indicates the frame/stem/bar combination was to

Re: [RBW] Re: Bike Makeover Thread

['John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Leah, perhaps the Brooks on the Mermaid is setback 10mm more than the Rivet 
on the Raspberry.   However, the Raspberry seatpost SB is 42mm with 0 on 
the IRD scale corresponding to an actual 20mm.  The Mermaid has a 
'standard' looking seatpost, most likely with 20mm SB.  The 10mm in saddle 
position is only 25% of the 42mm in seatpost seatback.So you are still 
much further back on the Rapsberry than on the Mermaid.

A simple measurement could help determine if the setbacks are the same or 
different.   If the 2 bikes have the SAME stem length and bars and the bars 
are set to the same height, then measuring the distance from the center of 
the stem quill bolt to the back of the saddle (or to where your sit bones 
indention is) should reveal if both are setback the same or if there is a 
difference, it would quantify it.

John Hawrylak
Woodstown NJ

On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 7:06:51 PM UTC-4 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:

> I’m nearly sure Rivet Sonora is 10mm shorter rails than Brooks. I think 
> that could account for the difference.
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Oct 15, 2023, at 7:03 PM, 'John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ' via RBW Owners 
> Bunch  wrote:
>
> Leah stated concerning her Mermaid Platy:  " This one has a Brooks. I 
> know it sounds crazy but this bike feels perfect to me and I believe it to 
> be because the Brooks rails are a little longer and allow for just enough 
> setback. "
>
>
> My Comment: Brooks B17s are notorious for their rails having a short 
> adjustment length.  I measured 2.1 to 3.0 cm depending on how much you 
> force the saddle fore and aft in the clamp.
>
> The Mermaid looks like a 'normal' setup form that type of frame.   There 
> seems to be more seatpost showing the=an on the Raspberry Platy.
>
> The Raspberry Platy seems more stretched out, which George has diagnosed 
> in his replies
>
> Leah, if you think the Billie bars on the Mermaid are different than the 
> Billie bars on the Raspberry., just place the 2 side by side, line up the 
> bars and visually compare the 2.  Any differences should be apparent.  If 
> NO differences are observed they are probably the same.
>
> John Hawrylak
> Woodstown NJ
>
> On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 6:40:42 PM UTC-4 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
> wrote:
>
>> I have the mermaid Platy:
>> [image: image0.jpeg]
>>
>> This one has a Brooks. I know it sounds crazy but this bike feels perfect 
>> to me and I believe it to be because the Brooks rails are a little longer 
>> and allow for just enough setback. Either that or the Billie Bars are 
>> somehow not made to spec and don’t come back as far. That’s my layperson 
>> crumby understanding. But that bike fits great.
>>
>> The Clem:
>> [image: image1.jpeg]
>>
>> I rode it last night and decided I hate how it feels. Bars too close, too 
>> bolt upright. This is the fault of club riding where I now like leaning 
>> forward more. But I rarely ride this bike so it won’t get any new parts. 
>> Poor thing.
>>
>> On Oct 15, 2023, at 6:36 PM, 'John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ' via RBW Owners 
>> Bunch  wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> Curious if Leah has her other Rivendells set up the same way.
>>
>> John Hawrylak
>> Woodstown NJ
>>
>> On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 5:03:31 PM UTC-4 George Schick wrote:
>>
>>> I'll probably get clobbered for my reply to this discussion - I'm used 
>>> to it - but from viewing the pics of Leah's bikes in this thread plus 
>>> others in previous threads, her bike always seems to be either in the 
>>> highest gear or at least the next to highest. And she has admitted to as 
>>> much in previous discussions that's how she likes it. And since she likes 
>>> the saddle moved as far as possible to the rear this means that she's using 
>>> the leverage of that angle while pulling back on the bar grips in order to 
>>> "stomp" as hard as possible on the pedals.  Since she has the leg 
>>> development and strength to get away with that kind of riding due to her 
>>> weight training and other off-bike workouts, that's just how she's using to 
>>> riding.
>>>
>>> Many of the rest of us old farts who learned road riding on a 
>>> diamond-framed bike with drop bars, having the saddle positioned more 
>>> closely to the center of the BB so we could "spin" the pedals at as high a 
>>> cadence (RPM) as possible, shifting gears when necessary in order to 
>>> maintain that cadence (which is how I assume the pro racers still learn to 
>>> ride).  Which is probably why she gets some sideways looks by others in the 
>>> pace lines of her bike club.  That's not how she's learned to ride for 
>>> whatever reason, so fiddling around with saddle position is likely to be a 
>>> problem, or as least a considerable adjustment for her.  Anyway, that's my 
>>> 2¢.
>>>
>>> On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 3:27:57 PM UTC-5 John Hawrylak, Woodstown 
>>> NJ wrote:
>>>
 Ok, I understand

 Moving the saddle back increases the saddle to bar distance by about 
 2.5cm.  This indicates the frame/st

Re: [RBW] Re: Bike Makeover Thread

[George Schick]

Well Patrick, I can only say that I beckon back to a TV broadcast of a 
professional bowling tournament in the early 70's where one of the 
contestants was delivering the ball to the lane with his left leg ending up 
in a more or less vertical stance.  When the play-by-play announcer asked 
the "color announcer" (a former professional bowler) about that kind of 
delivery, the former professional bowler said, "...his youth allows him to 
get away with it..."  Sure enough, that bowler was never again seen on the 
bowling circuit again.

And so it is with this pedaling and seat-back business under discussion 
here:  One's youth might allow one to get away with muscling into fast road 
riding, steep climbs, etc. at a strong rate, but it's not likely to last 
much into one's older years.

On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 6:09:32 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:

> One more remark. About 20 years ago when I was in my youthful late 40s I 
> happened across a retired man who'd set up a sort of casual bike museum 
> here in ABQ; can't remember his name or the location, but he had all sorts 
> of nice old school road bikes; was it he or was it Dick "Call me Mister" 
> Hallet of erstwhile local World Champion Bicycles who had an actual Reg 
> Harris track bike on display?
>
> At any rate, this man, probably then younger than I am now, but at least 
> early 60s, was a short, slight fellow; perfect spinner type, you'd say. 
> Nope, he had a 56T outer ring on his bike, IIRC, and when I remarked on it 
> he told us with enthusiasm that he liked torquing that monster over at low 
> r's pm.
>
> On Sun, Oct 15, 2023 at 5:03 PM Patrick Moore  wrote:
>
>> George: Physiologies and psychologies differ considerably among riders. 
>> Me, I *like* standing and torquing up hills; I used to do this when 
>> climbing a local 7-mile hill on a 70" or 75" fixed gear: stand for 
>> half-a-mile-to-a-full-mile, sit for 30 seconds and strain your knees while 
>>  resting your lungs, then repeat. Even now in my decripit old age, I still 
>> prefer to torque at slow r's pm than to get breathless spinning a 
>> no-resistance gear. 
>>
>> Neither is "better" for us recreational riders, as far as I can tell.
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 15, 2023 at 4:43 PM George Schick  wrote:
>>
>>> It kinda reminds me of a Star Trek episode in the first of the TV 60's 
>>> series of the show entitled "A Taste of Armageddon" where the Enterprise 
>>> has sent a landing party down to a planet that observes "theoretical 
>>> warfare" against another planet in their solar system:
>>>
>>>- 
>>>
>>>Spock  : [after 
>>>hearing Anan 7 explain their system of computerized warfare]  There 
>>>is a certain scientific logic about it.
>>>
>>>Anan 7  : I'm glad 
>>>you approve.
>>>
>>>Spock  : I do *not* 
>>>approve. I *understand*.
>>>- 
>>>
>>>Ergo, I understand, but I do not necessarily approve of your method 
>>>of pedaling.  Seems to me like, when you have to stand up on a hill, 
>>> it's 
>>>like you're carrying two heavy bags of groceries up the stairs to a 
>>> 4-story 
>>>walk-up apartment, stomping on each step as you go, suffering.
>>>- 
>>>
>>>Whereas, those who ride road bikes with drop bars lean forward on 
>>>the grips of their handbrakes and stand on up on their pedals in a 
>>> smooth 
>>>back and forth motion like "dancing" (I really like Garth's analogy 
>>> about 
>>>that!) moving their body weight forward while gripping on the brake 
>>> lever 
>>>covers of their drop bars so they can easily shift their weight from 
>>> side 
>>>to side while climbing.
>>>- 
>>>
>>>'Course, there are also those who zoom up those slopes while seated, 
>>>spinning their pedals at very high cadences, but I always assume they've 
>>>been regulars at gym spin classes.
>>>
>>> On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 5:18:31 PM UTC-5 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 George, lol, that IS what I do. And I never knew there was really any 
 other way! I dislike the feeling of spinning. It feels wobbly and out of 
 control. So I don’t - I just leave it in the “hard” gear. BUT, I do shift 
 to an easier one at stop signs now. My knees were killing me tryng to race 
 up to speed from a dead stop and I didn’t want to hold up the riders 
 behind 
 me. But you are probably right about my riding style. Huh. I never thought 
 about it.

 Max - hearts are coming out of my eyes looking at the yellow bike!! 
 What a lucky woman is yours!!

 On Oct 15, 2023, at 5:03 PM, George Schick  wrote:

 I'll probably get clobbered for my reply to this discussion - I'm used 
 to it - but from viewing the pics of Leah's bikes in this thread plus 
 others in previous threads, he

Re: [RBW] Re: Bike Makeover Thread

[Roberta]

Beautiful.  She has basically. New bike. Love the cream head tube and the 
filled in hearts. 
On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 4:52:57 PM UTC-4 Max S wrote:

> Before & after for my honey's bikie...  This Yves Gomez was advertised in 
> "as new" condition, which was a fine claim, except it turned out to not be 
> remotely true. All the components were heavily worn / unusable, and 
> everything associated with the drivetrain (and front wheel) had to be 
> replaced. I converted it into an easy 1x1 with a front basket. It got only 
> a few miles in that state, partly because the frame got gouged quite 
> severely in shipping. (Some of you may recall my quest for the "mustard 
> Clem" color code...) I sent the bike to Jack Trumbull of Franklin Frame for 
> repair and repaint, after which, I rebuilt it. Now it's been suped up with 
> a nice seat, grips, fancy crank, other nice components, custom Riv bags, 
> and metal fenders. 
>
> - Max 
>
> [image: Yves Gomez original ad.jpg][image: Yves Gomez green basket 
> driveside.jpg]
> [image: Yves Gomez repaint 1x9 fenders driveside.jpeg]
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Bike Makeover Thread

[Patrick Moore]

One more remark. About 20 years ago when I was in my youthful late 40s I
happened across a retired man who'd set up a sort of casual bike museum
here in ABQ; can't remember his name or the location, but he had all sorts
of nice old school road bikes; was it he or was it Dick "Call me Mister"
Hallet of erstwhile local World Champion Bicycles who had an actual Reg
Harris track bike on display?

At any rate, this man, probably then younger than I am now, but at least
early 60s, was a short, slight fellow; perfect spinner type, you'd say.
Nope, he had a 56T outer ring on his bike, IIRC, and when I remarked on it
he told us with enthusiasm that he liked torquing that monster over at low
r's pm.

On Sun, Oct 15, 2023 at 5:03 PM Patrick Moore  wrote:

> George: Physiologies and psychologies differ considerably among riders.
> Me, I *like* standing and torquing up hills; I used to do this when
> climbing a local 7-mile hill on a 70" or 75" fixed gear: stand for
> half-a-mile-to-a-full-mile, sit for 30 seconds and strain your knees while
>  resting your lungs, then repeat. Even now in my decripit old age, I still
> prefer to torque at slow r's pm than to get breathless spinning a
> no-resistance gear.
>
> Neither is "better" for us recreational riders, as far as I can tell.
>
> On Sun, Oct 15, 2023 at 4:43 PM George Schick  wrote:
>
>> It kinda reminds me of a Star Trek episode in the first of the TV 60's
>> series of the show entitled "A Taste of Armageddon" where the Enterprise
>> has sent a landing party down to a planet that observes "theoretical
>> warfare" against another planet in their solar system:
>>
>>-
>>
>>Spock  : [after
>>hearing Anan 7 explain their system of computerized warfare]  There
>>is a certain scientific logic about it.
>>
>>Anan 7  : I'm glad
>>you approve.
>>
>>Spock  : I do *not*
>>approve. I *understand*.
>>-
>>
>>Ergo, I understand, but I do not necessarily approve of your method
>>of pedaling.  Seems to me like, when you have to stand up on a hill, it's
>>like you're carrying two heavy bags of groceries up the stairs to a 
>> 4-story
>>walk-up apartment, stomping on each step as you go, suffering.
>>-
>>
>>Whereas, those who ride road bikes with drop bars lean forward on the
>>grips of their handbrakes and stand on up on their pedals in a smooth back
>>and forth motion like "dancing" (I really like Garth's analogy about 
>> that!)
>>moving their body weight forward while gripping on the brake lever covers
>>of their drop bars so they can easily shift their weight from side to side
>>while climbing.
>>-
>>
>>'Course, there are also those who zoom up those slopes while seated,
>>spinning their pedals at very high cadences, but I always assume they've
>>been regulars at gym spin classes.
>>
>> On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 5:18:31 PM UTC-5 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!
>> wrote:
>>
>>> George, lol, that IS what I do. And I never knew there was really any
>>> other way! I dislike the feeling of spinning. It feels wobbly and out of
>>> control. So I don’t - I just leave it in the “hard” gear. BUT, I do shift
>>> to an easier one at stop signs now. My knees were killing me tryng to race
>>> up to speed from a dead stop and I didn’t want to hold up the riders behind
>>> me. But you are probably right about my riding style. Huh. I never thought
>>> about it.
>>>
>>> Max - hearts are coming out of my eyes looking at the yellow bike!!
>>> What a lucky woman is yours!!
>>>
>>> On Oct 15, 2023, at 5:03 PM, George Schick  wrote:
>>>
>>> I'll probably get clobbered for my reply to this discussion - I'm used
>>> to it - but from viewing the pics of Leah's bikes in this thread plus
>>> others in previous threads, her bike always seems to be either in the
>>> highest gear or at least the next to highest. And she has admitted to as
>>> much in previous discussions that's how she likes it. And since she likes
>>> the saddle moved as far as possible to the rear this means that she's using
>>> the leverage of that angle while pulling back on the bar grips in order to
>>> "stomp" as hard as possible on the pedals.  Since she has the leg
>>> development and strength to get away with that kind of riding due to her
>>> weight training and other off-bike workouts, that's just how she's using to
>>> riding.
>>>
>>>
>>> Many of the rest of us old farts who learned road riding on a
>>> diamond-framed bike with drop bars, having the saddle positioned more
>>> closely to the center of the BB so we could "spin" the pedals at as high a
>>> cadence (RPM) as possible, shifting gears when necessary in order to
>>> maintain that cadence (which is how I assume the pro racers still learn to
>>> ride).  Which is probably why she gets some sideways looks by others in the
>>> pace l

Re: [RBW] Re: Bike Makeover Thread

[Leah Peterson]

I’m nearly sure Rivet Sonora is 10mm shorter rails than Brooks. I think that could account for the difference.Sent from my iPhoneOn Oct 15, 2023, at 7:03 PM, 'John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ' via RBW Owners Bunch  wrote:Leah stated concerning her Mermaid Platy:  "

This one has a Brooks. I know it sounds crazy but this bike feels perfect to me and I believe it to be because the Brooks rails are a little longer and allow for just enough setback. "My Comment: Brooks B17s are notorious for their rails having a short adjustment length.  I measured 2.1 to 3.0 cm depending on how much you force the saddle fore and aft in the clamp.The Mermaid looks like a 'normal' setup form that type of frame.   There seems to be more seatpost showing the=an on the Raspberry Platy.The Raspberry Platy seems more stretched out, which George has diagnosed in his repliesLeah, if you think the Billie bars on the Mermaid are different than the Billie bars on the Raspberry., just place the 2 side by side, line up the bars and visually compare the 2.  Any differences should be apparent.  If NO differences are observed they are probably the same.John HawrylakWoodstown NJOn Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 6:40:42 PM UTC-4 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:I have the mermaid Platy:This one has a Brooks. I know it sounds crazy but this bike feels perfect to me and I believe it to be because the Brooks rails are a little longer and allow for just enough setback. Either that or the Billie Bars are somehow not made to spec and don’t come back as far. That’s my layperson crumby understanding. But that bike fits great.The Clem:I rode it last night and decided I hate how it feels. Bars too close, too bolt upright. This is the fault of club riding where I now like leaning forward more. But I rarely ride this bike so it won’t get any new parts. Poor thing.On Oct 15, 2023, at 6:36 PM, 'John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ' via RBW Owners Bunch  wrote:Curious if Leah has her other Rivendells set up the same way.John HawrylakWoodstown NJOn Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 5:03:31 PM UTC-4 George Schick wrote:I'll probably get clobbered for my reply to this discussion - I'm used to it - but from viewing the pics of Leah's bikes in this thread plus others in previous threads, her bike always seems to be either in the highest gear or at least the next to highest. And she has admitted to as much in previous discussions that's how she likes it. And since she likes the saddle moved as far as possible to the rear this means that she's using the leverage of that angle while pulling back on the bar grips in order to "stomp" as hard as possible on the pedals.  Since she has the leg development and strength to get away with that kind of riding due to her weight training and other off-bike workouts, that's just how she's using to riding.Many of the rest of us old farts who learned road riding on a diamond-framed bike with drop bars, having the saddle positioned more closely to the center of the BB so we could "spin" the pedals at as high a cadence (RPM) as possible, shifting gears when necessary in order to maintain that cadence (which is how I assume the pro racers still learn to ride).  Which is probably why she gets some sideways looks by others in the pace lines of her bike club.  That's not how she's learned to ride for whatever reason, so fiddling around with saddle position is likely to be a problem, or as least a considerable adjustment for her.  Anyway, that's my 2¢.On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 3:27:57 PM UTC-5 John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ wrote:
Ok, I understandMoving the saddle back increases the saddle to bar distance by about 2.5cm.  This indicates the frame/stem/bar combination was too SHORT.Then, You cut 1 cm from the bars.  This increased the saddle to bar distance, indicating the frame/stem/bar combination was too SHORT, but is OK now.So you ended up increasing the saddle to bar distance 3.5 cm to get to an Acceptable position..I think the Alba bar would be better based on this from the RBW write up on the Billie:'The Billie straight grip section is 2" (5 cm) longer than an Alba." So an Alba with a 10cm stem would have a saddle to bar distance 1.5cm longer (5 - 3.5) than what you ended up.Replace the 10 cm stem with a 9cm and you are within 0.5cm (5mm) of where you are at.  A 8cm stem would also work, just 5mm on the other side.  A 8.5cm would be mathematically correct, but the 5mm either way probably cant be felt..Leah is also in a too short condition, excess seatpost SB and max length stem..   The extra 5cm of straight grip length of the Billie contributes to the 'shortness' by having the LONG straight grip section.   The fact that other Riv sisters had the same problem and they used Billie bars, indicate the Billie bar is the common problem.RBW supplies the Platy built up in Taiwan with a Tosco bar which has a sweep back about the same a s a Billie.  So they seem to supply Platy's as too short due t9 the bar sweep back.John Ha

Re: [RBW] Re: Bike Makeover Thread

[Patrick Moore]

George: Physiologies and psychologies differ considerably among riders. Me,
I *like* standing and torquing up hills; I used to do this when climbing a
local 7-mile hill on a 70" or 75" fixed gear: stand for
half-a-mile-to-a-full-mile, sit for 30 seconds and strain your knees while
 resting your lungs, then repeat. Even now in my decripit old age, I still
prefer to torque at slow r's pm than to get breathless spinning a
no-resistance gear.

Neither is "better" for us recreational riders, as far as I can tell.

On Sun, Oct 15, 2023 at 4:43 PM George Schick  wrote:

> It kinda reminds me of a Star Trek episode in the first of the TV 60's
> series of the show entitled "A Taste of Armageddon" where the Enterprise
> has sent a landing party down to a planet that observes "theoretical
> warfare" against another planet in their solar system:
>
>-
>
>Spock  : [after
>hearing Anan 7 explain their system of computerized warfare]  There is
>a certain scientific logic about it.
>
>Anan 7  : I'm glad
>you approve.
>
>Spock  : I do *not*
>approve. I *understand*.
>-
>
>Ergo, I understand, but I do not necessarily approve of your method of
>pedaling.  Seems to me like, when you have to stand up on a hill, it's like
>you're carrying two heavy bags of groceries up the stairs to a 4-story
>walk-up apartment, stomping on each step as you go, suffering.
>-
>
>Whereas, those who ride road bikes with drop bars lean forward on the
>grips of their handbrakes and stand on up on their pedals in a smooth back
>and forth motion like "dancing" (I really like Garth's analogy about that!)
>moving their body weight forward while gripping on the brake lever covers
>of their drop bars so they can easily shift their weight from side to side
>while climbing.
>-
>
>'Course, there are also those who zoom up those slopes while seated,
>spinning their pedals at very high cadences, but I always assume they've
>been regulars at gym spin classes.
>
> On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 5:18:31 PM UTC-5 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!
> wrote:
>
>> George, lol, that IS what I do. And I never knew there was really any
>> other way! I dislike the feeling of spinning. It feels wobbly and out of
>> control. So I don’t - I just leave it in the “hard” gear. BUT, I do shift
>> to an easier one at stop signs now. My knees were killing me tryng to race
>> up to speed from a dead stop and I didn’t want to hold up the riders behind
>> me. But you are probably right about my riding style. Huh. I never thought
>> about it.
>>
>> Max - hearts are coming out of my eyes looking at the yellow bike!!
>> What a lucky woman is yours!!
>>
>> On Oct 15, 2023, at 5:03 PM, George Schick  wrote:
>>
>> I'll probably get clobbered for my reply to this discussion - I'm used
>> to it - but from viewing the pics of Leah's bikes in this thread plus
>> others in previous threads, her bike always seems to be either in the
>> highest gear or at least the next to highest. And she has admitted to as
>> much in previous discussions that's how she likes it. And since she likes
>> the saddle moved as far as possible to the rear this means that she's using
>> the leverage of that angle while pulling back on the bar grips in order to
>> "stomp" as hard as possible on the pedals.  Since she has the leg
>> development and strength to get away with that kind of riding due to her
>> weight training and other off-bike workouts, that's just how she's using to
>> riding.
>>
>>
>> Many of the rest of us old farts who learned road riding on a
>> diamond-framed bike with drop bars, having the saddle positioned more
>> closely to the center of the BB so we could "spin" the pedals at as high a
>> cadence (RPM) as possible, shifting gears when necessary in order to
>> maintain that cadence (which is how I assume the pro racers still learn to
>> ride).  Which is probably why she gets some sideways looks by others in the
>> pace lines of her bike club.  That's not how she's learned to ride for
>> whatever reason, so fiddling around with saddle position is likely to be a
>> problem, or as least a considerable adjustment for her.  Anyway, that's my
>> 2¢.
>>
>> On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 3:27:57 PM UTC-5 John Hawrylak, Woodstown
>> NJ wrote:
>>
>>> Ok, I understand
>>>
>>> Moving the saddle back increases the saddle to bar distance by about
>>> 2.5cm.  This indicates the frame/stem/bar combination was too SHORT.
>>>
>>> Then, You cut 1 cm from the bars.  This increased the saddle to bar
>>> distance, indicating the frame/stem/bar combination was too SHORT, but
>>> is OK now.
>>>
>>> So you ended up increasing the saddle to bar distance 3.5 cm to get to
>>> an Acceptable position..
>>>
>>> I think the Alba bar would be better based on this from the RBW write up
>>> on 

Re: [RBW] Re: Bike Makeover Thread

['John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Leah stated concerning her Mermaid Platy:  " This one has a Brooks. I know 
it sounds crazy but this bike feels perfect to me and I believe it to be 
because the Brooks rails are a little longer and allow for just enough 
setback. "

My Comment: Brooks B17s are notorious for their rails having a short 
adjustment length.  I measured 2.1 to 3.0 cm depending on how much you 
force the saddle fore and aft in the clamp.

The Mermaid looks like a 'normal' setup form that type of frame.   There 
seems to be more seatpost showing the=an on the Raspberry Platy.

The Raspberry Platy seems more stretched out, which George has diagnosed in 
his replies

Leah, if you think the Billie bars on the Mermaid are different than the 
Billie bars on the Raspberry., just place the 2 side by side, line up the 
bars and visually compare the 2.  Any differences should be apparent.  If 
NO differences are observed they are probably the same.

John Hawrylak
Woodstown NJ

On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 6:40:42 PM UTC-4 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:

> I have the mermaid Platy:
> [image: image0.jpeg]
>
> This one has a Brooks. I know it sounds crazy but this bike feels perfect 
> to me and I believe it to be because the Brooks rails are a little longer 
> and allow for just enough setback. Either that or the Billie Bars are 
> somehow not made to spec and don’t come back as far. That’s my layperson 
> crumby understanding. But that bike fits great.
>
> The Clem:
> [image: image1.jpeg]
>
> I rode it last night and decided I hate how it feels. Bars too close, too 
> bolt upright. This is the fault of club riding where I now like leaning 
> forward more. But I rarely ride this bike so it won’t get any new parts. 
> Poor thing.
>
> On Oct 15, 2023, at 6:36 PM, 'John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ' via RBW Owners 
> Bunch  wrote:
>
> 
>
> Curious if Leah has her other Rivendells set up the same way.
>
> John Hawrylak
> Woodstown NJ
>
> On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 5:03:31 PM UTC-4 George Schick wrote:
>
>> I'll probably get clobbered for my reply to this discussion - I'm used to 
>> it - but from viewing the pics of Leah's bikes in this thread plus others 
>> in previous threads, her bike always seems to be either in the highest gear 
>> or at least the next to highest. And she has admitted to as much in 
>> previous discussions that's how she likes it. And since she likes the 
>> saddle moved as far as possible to the rear this means that she's using the 
>> leverage of that angle while pulling back on the bar grips in order to 
>> "stomp" as hard as possible on the pedals.  Since she has the leg 
>> development and strength to get away with that kind of riding due to her 
>> weight training and other off-bike workouts, that's just how she's using to 
>> riding.
>>
>> Many of the rest of us old farts who learned road riding on a 
>> diamond-framed bike with drop bars, having the saddle positioned more 
>> closely to the center of the BB so we could "spin" the pedals at as high a 
>> cadence (RPM) as possible, shifting gears when necessary in order to 
>> maintain that cadence (which is how I assume the pro racers still learn to 
>> ride).  Which is probably why she gets some sideways looks by others in the 
>> pace lines of her bike club.  That's not how she's learned to ride for 
>> whatever reason, so fiddling around with saddle position is likely to be a 
>> problem, or as least a considerable adjustment for her.  Anyway, that's my 
>> 2¢.
>>
>> On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 3:27:57 PM UTC-5 John Hawrylak, Woodstown 
>> NJ wrote:
>>
>>> Ok, I understand
>>>
>>> Moving the saddle back increases the saddle to bar distance by about 
>>> 2.5cm.  This indicates the frame/stem/bar combination was too SHORT.
>>>
>>> Then, You cut 1 cm from the bars.  This increased the saddle to bar 
>>> distance, indicating the frame/stem/bar combination was too SHORT, but 
>>> is OK now.
>>>
>>> So you ended up increasing the saddle to bar distance 3.5 cm to get to 
>>> an Acceptable position..
>>>
>>> I think the Alba bar would be better based on this from the RBW write up 
>>> on the Billie:
>>> 'The Billie straight grip section is 2" (5 cm) longer than an Alba."
>>>
>>>  So an Alba with a 10cm stem would have a saddle to bar distance 1.5cm 
>>> longer (5 - 3.5) than what you ended up.
>>> Replace the 10 cm stem with a 9cm and you are within 0.5cm (5mm) of 
>>> where you are at.  A 8cm stem would also work, just 5mm on the other side.  
>>> A 8.5cm would be mathematically correct, but the 5mm either way probably 
>>> cant be felt..
>>>
>>> Leah is also in a too short condition, excess seatpost SB and max length 
>>> stem..   The extra 5cm of straight grip length of the Billie contributes to 
>>> the 'shortness' by having the LONG straight grip section.   The fact that 
>>> other Riv sisters had the same problem and they used Billie bars, indicate 
>>> the Billie bar is the common problem.
>>>
>>>
>>> RBW supplies the Platy built up in Taiwan with a Tosco 

Re: [RBW] Re: Bike Makeover Thread

[Patrick Moore]

I rarely agree with Leah (*) but I am one old-school rider who also likes
his saddle slammed back and his gears high, and I blame Grant. I used to be
a spinner -- would maintain 20-22 mph over distance in a 64" gear, back
when I was a pimpled 40-something -- until I started ordering bikes from
Rivendelll and complained that I felt as if I was "losing power at the top
of the pedal stroke," particularly when torquing up hills or into winds.
(There were also handling problems from my, then, habit of riding
seat-forward, bar-forward-and-down.) Grant said: Move bar up and back and
move saddle back and down, and so I did. Much better for climbing, but it
also made me into a masher, this probably helped by age.

On Riv frames with 73* stas, I used to use a rubber mallet to get my Flites
as far back on my favorite, fairly setback, DA 7410 seatposts.

I don't do this any longer -- I've moved my first edition Flites forward by
about 5 mm -- But I have to say, I have no desire to go back to that
forward riding position.

(*) Kidding, of course, and I daresay Leah could hardly care less. Saddle
position apart, Leah, that's a pretty bike, tho' I recommend grips to match
the saddle.

Patrick "over and out" Moore


On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 5:03:31 PM UTC-4 George Schick wrote:
>
>> I'll probably get clobbered for my reply to this discussion - I'm used to
>> it - but from viewing the pics of Leah's bikes in this thread plus others
>> in previous threads, her bike always seems to be either in the highest gear
>> or at least the next to highest. And she has admitted to as much in
>> previous discussions that's how she likes it. And since she likes the
>> saddle moved as far as possible to the rear this means that she's using the
>> leverage of that angle while pulling back on the bar grips in order to
>> "stomp" as hard as possible on the pedals.  Since she has the leg
>> development and strength to get away with that kind of riding due to her
>> weight training and other off-bike workouts, that's just how she's using to
>> riding.
>>
>> Many of the rest of us old farts who learned road riding on a
>> diamond-framed bike with drop bars, having the saddle positioned more
>> closely to the center of the BB so we could "spin" the pedals at as high a
>> cadence (RPM) as possible, shifting gears when necessary in order to
>> maintain that cadence (which is how I assume the pro racers still learn to
>> ride).  Which is probably why she gets some sideways looks by others in the
>> pace lines of her bike club.  That's not how she's learned to ride for
>> whatever reason, so fiddling around with saddle position is likely to be a
>> problem, or as least a considerable adjustment for her.  Anyway, that's my
>> 2¢.
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Bike Makeover Thread

[George Schick]

Also Leah, ever study the difference between slow twitch (weight work out) 
muscles vs. fast twitch (running, fast cadence) muscles during your medical 
education?  There's a big, big difference between the function of these two 
and their applicability to cycling.


On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 5:43:15 PM UTC-5 George Schick wrote:

> It kinda reminds me of a Star Trek episode in the first of the TV 60's 
> series of the show entitled "A Taste of Armageddon" where the Enterprise 
> has sent a landing party down to a planet that observes "theoretical 
> warfare" against another planet in their solar system:
>
>- 
>
>Spock  : [after 
>hearing Anan 7 explain their system of computerized warfare]  There is 
>a certain scientific logic about it.
>
>Anan 7  : I'm glad 
>you approve.
>
>Spock  : I do *not* 
>approve. I *understand*.
>- 
>
>Ergo, I understand, but I do not necessarily approve of your method of 
>pedaling.  Seems to me like, when you have to stand up on a hill, it's 
> like 
>you're carrying two heavy bags of groceries up the stairs to a 4-story 
>walk-up apartment, stomping on each step as you go, suffering.
>- 
>
>Whereas, those who ride road bikes with drop bars lean forward on the 
>grips of their handbrakes and stand on up on their pedals in a smooth back 
>and forth motion like "dancing" (I really like Garth's analogy about 
> that!) 
>moving their body weight forward while gripping on the brake lever covers 
>of their drop bars so they can easily shift their weight from side to side 
>while climbing.
>- 
>
>'Course, there are also those who zoom up those slopes while seated, 
>spinning their pedals at very high cadences, but I always assume they've 
>been regulars at gym spin classes.
>
> On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 5:18:31 PM UTC-5 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
> wrote:
>
>> George, lol, that IS what I do. And I never knew there was really any 
>> other way! I dislike the feeling of spinning. It feels wobbly and out of 
>> control. So I don’t - I just leave it in the “hard” gear. BUT, I do shift 
>> to an easier one at stop signs now. My knees were killing me tryng to race 
>> up to speed from a dead stop and I didn’t want to hold up the riders behind 
>> me. But you are probably right about my riding style. Huh. I never thought 
>> about it.
>>
>> Max - hearts are coming out of my eyes looking at the yellow bike!! 
>> What a lucky woman is yours!!
>>
>> On Oct 15, 2023, at 5:03 PM, George Schick  wrote:
>>
>> I'll probably get clobbered for my reply to this discussion - I'm used 
>> to it - but from viewing the pics of Leah's bikes in this thread plus 
>> others in previous threads, her bike always seems to be either in the 
>> highest gear or at least the next to highest. And she has admitted to as 
>> much in previous discussions that's how she likes it. And since she likes 
>> the saddle moved as far as possible to the rear this means that she's using 
>> the leverage of that angle while pulling back on the bar grips in order to 
>> "stomp" as hard as possible on the pedals.  Since she has the leg 
>> development and strength to get away with that kind of riding due to her 
>> weight training and other off-bike workouts, that's just how she's using to 
>> riding.
>>
>>
>> Many of the rest of us old farts who learned road riding on a 
>> diamond-framed bike with drop bars, having the saddle positioned more 
>> closely to the center of the BB so we could "spin" the pedals at as high a 
>> cadence (RPM) as possible, shifting gears when necessary in order to 
>> maintain that cadence (which is how I assume the pro racers still learn to 
>> ride).  Which is probably why she gets some sideways looks by others in the 
>> pace lines of her bike club.  That's not how she's learned to ride for 
>> whatever reason, so fiddling around with saddle position is likely to be a 
>> problem, or as least a considerable adjustment for her.  Anyway, that's my 
>> 2¢.
>>
>> On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 3:27:57 PM UTC-5 John Hawrylak, Woodstown 
>> NJ wrote:
>>
>>> Ok, I understand
>>>
>>> Moving the saddle back increases the saddle to bar distance by about 
>>> 2.5cm.  This indicates the frame/stem/bar combination was too SHORT.
>>>
>>> Then, You cut 1 cm from the bars.  This increased the saddle to bar 
>>> distance, indicating the frame/stem/bar combination was too SHORT, but 
>>> is OK now.
>>>
>>> So you ended up increasing the saddle to bar distance 3.5 cm to get to 
>>> an Acceptable position..
>>>
>>> I think the Alba bar would be better based on this from the RBW write up 
>>> on the Billie:
>>> 'The Billie straight grip section is 2" (5 cm) longer than an Alba."
>>>
>>>  So an Alba with a 10cm stem would have a saddle to

Re: [RBW] Re: Bike Makeover Thread

[George Schick]

It kinda reminds me of a Star Trek episode in the first of the TV 60's 
series of the show entitled "A Taste of Armageddon" where the Enterprise 
has sent a landing party down to a planet that observes "theoretical 
warfare" against another planet in their solar system:

   - 
   
   Spock  : [after hearing 
   Anan 7 explain their system of computerized warfare]  There is a certain 
   scientific logic about it.
   
   Anan 7  : I'm glad you 
   approve.
   
   Spock  : I do *not* 
   approve. I *understand*.
   - 
   
   Ergo, I understand, but I do not necessarily approve of your method of 
   pedaling.  Seems to me like, when you have to stand up on a hill, it's like 
   you're carrying two heavy bags of groceries up the stairs to a 4-story 
   walk-up apartment, stomping on each step as you go, suffering.
   - 
   
   Whereas, those who ride road bikes with drop bars lean forward on the 
   grips of their handbrakes and stand on up on their pedals in a smooth back 
   and forth motion like "dancing" (I really like Garth's analogy about that!) 
   moving their body weight forward while gripping on the brake lever covers 
   of their drop bars so they can easily shift their weight from side to side 
   while climbing.
   - 
   
   'Course, there are also those who zoom up those slopes while seated, 
   spinning their pedals at very high cadences, but I always assume they've 
   been regulars at gym spin classes.
   
On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 5:18:31 PM UTC-5 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:

> George, lol, that IS what I do. And I never knew there was really any 
> other way! I dislike the feeling of spinning. It feels wobbly and out of 
> control. So I don’t - I just leave it in the “hard” gear. BUT, I do shift 
> to an easier one at stop signs now. My knees were killing me tryng to race 
> up to speed from a dead stop and I didn’t want to hold up the riders behind 
> me. But you are probably right about my riding style. Huh. I never thought 
> about it.
>
> Max - hearts are coming out of my eyes looking at the yellow bike!! 
> What a lucky woman is yours!!
>
> On Oct 15, 2023, at 5:03 PM, George Schick  wrote:
>
> I'll probably get clobbered for my reply to this discussion - I'm used to 
> it - but from viewing the pics of Leah's bikes in this thread plus others 
> in previous threads, her bike always seems to be either in the highest gear 
> or at least the next to highest. And she has admitted to as much in 
> previous discussions that's how she likes it. And since she likes the 
> saddle moved as far as possible to the rear this means that she's using the 
> leverage of that angle while pulling back on the bar grips in order to 
> "stomp" as hard as possible on the pedals.  Since she has the leg 
> development and strength to get away with that kind of riding due to her 
> weight training and other off-bike workouts, that's just how she's using to 
> riding.
>
>
> Many of the rest of us old farts who learned road riding on a 
> diamond-framed bike with drop bars, having the saddle positioned more 
> closely to the center of the BB so we could "spin" the pedals at as high a 
> cadence (RPM) as possible, shifting gears when necessary in order to 
> maintain that cadence (which is how I assume the pro racers still learn to 
> ride).  Which is probably why she gets some sideways looks by others in the 
> pace lines of her bike club.  That's not how she's learned to ride for 
> whatever reason, so fiddling around with saddle position is likely to be a 
> problem, or as least a considerable adjustment for her.  Anyway, that's my 
> 2¢.
>
> On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 3:27:57 PM UTC-5 John Hawrylak, Woodstown 
> NJ wrote:
>
>> Ok, I understand
>>
>> Moving the saddle back increases the saddle to bar distance by about 
>> 2.5cm.  This indicates the frame/stem/bar combination was too SHORT.
>>
>> Then, You cut 1 cm from the bars.  This increased the saddle to bar 
>> distance, indicating the frame/stem/bar combination was too SHORT, but 
>> is OK now.
>>
>> So you ended up increasing the saddle to bar distance 3.5 cm to get to an 
>> Acceptable position..
>>
>> I think the Alba bar would be better based on this from the RBW write up 
>> on the Billie:
>> 'The Billie straight grip section is 2" (5 cm) longer than an Alba."
>>
>>  So an Alba with a 10cm stem would have a saddle to bar distance 1.5cm 
>> longer (5 - 3.5) than what you ended up.
>> Replace the 10 cm stem with a 9cm and you are within 0.5cm (5mm) of where 
>> you are at.  A 8cm stem would also work, just 5mm on the other side.  A 
>> 8.5cm would be mathematically correct, but the 5mm either way probably cant 
>> be felt..
>>
>> Leah is also in a too short condition, excess seatpost SB and max length 
>> stem..   The extra 5cm of straight grip length of the Billie contributes to 
>> th

Re: [RBW] Re: Bike Makeover Thread

['John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Curious if Leah has her other Rivendells set up the same way.

John Hawrylak
Woodstown NJ

On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 5:03:31 PM UTC-4 George Schick wrote:

> I'll probably get clobbered for my reply to this discussion - I'm used to 
> it - but from viewing the pics of Leah's bikes in this thread plus others 
> in previous threads, her bike always seems to be either in the highest gear 
> or at least the next to highest. And she has admitted to as much in 
> previous discussions that's how she likes it. And since she likes the 
> saddle moved as far as possible to the rear this means that she's using the 
> leverage of that angle while pulling back on the bar grips in order to 
> "stomp" as hard as possible on the pedals.  Since she has the leg 
> development and strength to get away with that kind of riding due to her 
> weight training and other off-bike workouts, that's just how she's using to 
> riding.
>
> Many of the rest of us old farts who learned road riding on a 
> diamond-framed bike with drop bars, having the saddle positioned more 
> closely to the center of the BB so we could "spin" the pedals at as high a 
> cadence (RPM) as possible, shifting gears when necessary in order to 
> maintain that cadence (which is how I assume the pro racers still learn to 
> ride).  Which is probably why she gets some sideways looks by others in the 
> pace lines of her bike club.  That's not how she's learned to ride for 
> whatever reason, so fiddling around with saddle position is likely to be a 
> problem, or as least a considerable adjustment for her.  Anyway, that's my 
> 2¢.
>
> On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 3:27:57 PM UTC-5 John Hawrylak, Woodstown 
> NJ wrote:
>
>> Ok, I understand
>>
>> Moving the saddle back increases the saddle to bar distance by about 
>> 2.5cm.  This indicates the frame/stem/bar combination was too SHORT.
>>
>> Then, You cut 1 cm from the bars.  This increased the saddle to bar 
>> distance, indicating the frame/stem/bar combination was too SHORT, but 
>> is OK now.
>>
>> So you ended up increasing the saddle to bar distance 3.5 cm to get to an 
>> Acceptable position..
>>
>> I think the Alba bar would be better based on this from the RBW write up 
>> on the Billie:
>> 'The Billie straight grip section is 2" (5 cm) longer than an Alba."
>>
>>  So an Alba with a 10cm stem would have a saddle to bar distance 1.5cm 
>> longer (5 - 3.5) than what you ended up.
>> Replace the 10 cm stem with a 9cm and you are within 0.5cm (5mm) of where 
>> you are at.  A 8cm stem would also work, just 5mm on the other side.  A 
>> 8.5cm would be mathematically correct, but the 5mm either way probably cant 
>> be felt..
>>
>> Leah is also in a too short condition, excess seatpost SB and max length 
>> stem..   The extra 5cm of straight grip length of the Billie contributes to 
>> the 'shortness' by having the LONG straight grip section.   The fact that 
>> other Riv sisters had the same problem and they used Billie bars, indicate 
>> the Billie bar is the common problem.
>>
>>
>> RBW supplies the Platy built up in Taiwan with a Tosco bar which has a 
>> sweep back about the same a s a Billie.  So they seem to supply Platy's as 
>> too short due t9 the bar sweep back.
>>
>> John Hawrylak
>> Woodstown NJ
>>
>>  
>>
>> On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 02:45:29 PM EDT, Roberta <
>> rcha...@gmail.com> wrote: 
>>
>>
>> Thanks, John.
>>
>> I must have said it wrong.  I moved my saddle AWAY from the bars, towards 
>> the rear end of my bike.  I think that's called aft (I had to look it up).  
>> the bars were still too close, so I cut off 1cm (after a year of trying to 
>> feel OK).  If the stem had come in an 11cm, I would have just done that.  
>>
>> I ended in a good position, so like you said " then all is good in life."
>>
>> Roberta
>>
>> On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 2:08:31 PM UTC-4 John Hawrylak, Woodstown 
>> NJ wrote:
>>
>> Roberta
>>
>> Pushing the saddle BACK to the back of the clamp, moves the saddle 
>> FORWARD the maximum amount.  This indicates the saddle to bar distance is 
>> too long and your needed to reduce the reach.   Maybe you pushed it too far 
>> forward, most Brooks have only 20 to 30mm of total fore/aft motion..  
>>
>> Did you cut 1cm off the bars after pushing forward the max amount??.  
>>  Cutting the bars indicate the saddle to bar distance is too short, the 
>> opposite of your original action (push saddle forward).   The 1 cm cut is 
>> within the range of Brooks adjustability.
>>
>> But if you ended in a good position, then all is good in life.
>>
>> John Hawrylak
>> Woodstown NJ
>> On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 1:26:10 PM UTC-4 Roberta wrote:
>>
>> I've had a few emails with other RivSisters who own Platys and there are 
>> quite a few of us who've commented on having to push one's saddle back as 
>> far as the rails could take it.  
>>
>> I'm on a 55 Platy with 83cm pbh--one or two more than Leah AND I like my 
>> saddle high-- and would probably like mine back a tou

Re: [RBW] Re: Bike Makeover Thread

[Leah Peterson]

George, lol, that IS what I do. And I never knew there was really any other way! I dislike the feeling of spinning. It feels wobbly and out of control. So I don’t - I just leave it in the “hard” gear. BUT, I do shift to an easier one at stop signs now. My knees were killing me tryng to race up to speed from a dead stop and I didn’t want to hold up the riders behind me. But you are probably right about my riding style. Huh. I never thought about it.Max - hearts are coming out of my eyes looking at the yellow bike!! What a lucky woman is yours!!On Oct 15, 2023, at 5:03 PM, George Schick  wrote:I'll probably get clobbered for my reply to this discussion - I'm used to it - but from viewing the pics of Leah's bikes in this thread plus others in previous threads, her bike always seems to be either in the highest gear or at least the next to highest. And she has admitted to as much in previous discussions that's how she likes it. And since she likes the saddle moved as far as possible to the rear this means that she's using the leverage of that angle while pulling back on the bar grips in order to "stomp" as hard as possible on the pedals.  Since she has the leg development and strength to get away with that kind of riding due to her weight training and other off-bike workouts, that's just how she's using to riding.Many of the rest of us old farts who learned road riding on a diamond-framed bike with drop bars, having the saddle positioned more closely to the center of the BB so we could "spin" the pedals at as high a cadence (RPM) as possible, shifting gears when necessary in order to maintain that cadence (which is how I assume the pro racers still learn to ride).  Which is probably why she gets some sideways looks by others in the pace lines of her bike club.  That's not how she's learned to ride for whatever reason, so fiddling around with saddle position is likely to be a problem, or as least a considerable adjustment for her.  Anyway, that's my 2¢.On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 3:27:57 PM UTC-5 John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ wrote:
Ok, I understandMoving the saddle back increases the saddle to bar distance by about 2.5cm.  This indicates the frame/stem/bar combination was too SHORT.Then, You cut 1 cm from the bars.  This increased the saddle to bar distance, indicating the frame/stem/bar combination was too SHORT, but is OK now.So you ended up increasing the saddle to bar distance 3.5 cm to get to an Acceptable position..I think the Alba bar would be better based on this from the RBW write up on the Billie:'The Billie straight grip section is 2" (5 cm) longer than an Alba." So an Alba with a 10cm stem would have a saddle to bar distance 1.5cm longer (5 - 3.5) than what you ended up.Replace the 10 cm stem with a 9cm and you are within 0.5cm (5mm) of where you are at.  A 8cm stem would also work, just 5mm on the other side.  A 8.5cm would be mathematically correct, but the 5mm either way probably cant be felt..Leah is also in a too short condition, excess seatpost SB and max length stem..   The extra 5cm of straight grip length of the Billie contributes to the 'shortness' by having the LONG straight grip section.   The fact that other Riv sisters had the same problem and they used Billie bars, indicate the Billie bar is the common problem.RBW supplies the Platy built up in Taiwan with a Tosco bar which has a sweep back about the same a s a Billie.  So they seem to supply Platy's as too short due t9 the bar sweep back.John HawrylakWoodstown NJ 





On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 02:45:29 PM EDT, Roberta  wrote:



Thanks, John.I must have said it wrong.  I moved my saddle AWAY from the bars, towards the rear end of my bike.  I think that's called aft (I had to look it up).  the bars were still too close, so I cut off 1cm (after a year of trying to feel OK).  If the stem had come in an 11cm, I would have just done that.  I ended in a good position, so like you said "
then all is good in life."RobertaOn Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 2:08:31 PM UTC-4 John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ wrote:RobertaPushing the saddle BACK to the back of the clamp, moves the saddle FORWARD the maximum amount.  This indicates the saddle to bar distance is too long and your needed to reduce the reach.   Maybe you pushed it too far forward, most Brooks have only 20 to 30mm of total fore/aft motion..  Did you cut 1cm off the bars after pushing forward the max amount??.   Cutting the bars indicate the saddle to bar distance is too short, the opposite of your original action (push saddle forward).   The 1 cm cut is within the range of Brooks adjustability.But if you ended in a good position, then all is good in life.John HawrylakWoodstown NJOn Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 1:26:10 PM UTC-4 Roberta wrote:I've had a few emails with other RivSisters who own Platys and there ar

Re: [RBW] Re: Bike Makeover Thread

[George Schick]

I'll probably get clobbered for my reply to this discussion - I'm used to 
it - but from viewing the pics of Leah's bikes in this thread plus others 
in previous threads, her bike always seems to be either in the highest gear 
or at least the next to highest. And she has admitted to as much in 
previous discussions that's how she likes it. And since she likes the 
saddle moved as far as possible to the rear this means that she's using the 
leverage of that angle while pulling back on the bar grips in order to 
"stomp" as hard as possible on the pedals.  Since she has the leg 
development and strength to get away with that kind of riding due to her 
weight training and other off-bike workouts, that's just how she's using to 
riding.

Many of the rest of us old farts who learned road riding on a 
diamond-framed bike with drop bars, having the saddle positioned more 
closely to the center of the BB so we could "spin" the pedals at as high a 
cadence (RPM) as possible, shifting gears when necessary in order to 
maintain that cadence (which is how I assume the pro racers still learn to 
ride).  Which is probably why she gets some sideways looks by others in the 
pace lines of her bike club.  That's not how she's learned to ride for 
whatever reason, so fiddling around with saddle position is likely to be a 
problem, or as least a considerable adjustment for her.  Anyway, that's my 
2¢.

On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 3:27:57 PM UTC-5 John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ 
wrote:

> Ok, I understand
>
> Moving the saddle back increases the saddle to bar distance by about 
> 2.5cm.  This indicates the frame/stem/bar combination was too SHORT.
>
> Then, You cut 1 cm from the bars.  This increased the saddle to bar 
> distance, indicating the frame/stem/bar combination was too SHORT, but is 
> OK now.
>
> So you ended up increasing the saddle to bar distance 3.5 cm to get to an 
> Acceptable position..
>
> I think the Alba bar would be better based on this from the RBW write up 
> on the Billie:
> 'The Billie straight grip section is 2" (5 cm) longer than an Alba."
>
>  So an Alba with a 10cm stem would have a saddle to bar distance 1.5cm 
> longer (5 - 3.5) than what you ended up.
> Replace the 10 cm stem with a 9cm and you are within 0.5cm (5mm) of where 
> you are at.  A 8cm stem would also work, just 5mm on the other side.  A 
> 8.5cm would be mathematically correct, but the 5mm either way probably cant 
> be felt..
>
> Leah is also in a too short condition, excess seatpost SB and max length 
> stem..   The extra 5cm of straight grip length of the Billie contributes to 
> the 'shortness' by having the LONG straight grip section.   The fact that 
> other Riv sisters had the same problem and they used Billie bars, indicate 
> the Billie bar is the common problem.
>
>
> RBW supplies the Platy built up in Taiwan with a Tosco bar which has a 
> sweep back about the same a s a Billie.  So they seem to supply Platy's as 
> too short due t9 the bar sweep back.
>
> John Hawrylak
> Woodstown NJ
>
>  
>
> On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 02:45:29 PM EDT, Roberta  
> wrote: 
>
>
> Thanks, John.
>
> I must have said it wrong.  I moved my saddle AWAY from the bars, towards 
> the rear end of my bike.  I think that's called aft (I had to look it up).  
> the bars were still too close, so I cut off 1cm (after a year of trying to 
> feel OK).  If the stem had come in an 11cm, I would have just done that.  
>
> I ended in a good position, so like you said " then all is good in life."
>
> Roberta
>
> On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 2:08:31 PM UTC-4 John Hawrylak, Woodstown 
> NJ wrote:
>
> Roberta
>
> Pushing the saddle BACK to the back of the clamp, moves the saddle FORWARD 
> the maximum amount.  This indicates the saddle to bar distance is too long 
> and your needed to reduce the reach.   Maybe you pushed it too far forward, 
> most Brooks have only 20 to 30mm of total fore/aft motion..  
>
> Did you cut 1cm off the bars after pushing forward the max amount??.  
>  Cutting the bars indicate the saddle to bar distance is too short, the 
> opposite of your original action (push saddle forward).   The 1 cm cut is 
> within the range of Brooks adjustability.
>
> But if you ended in a good position, then all is good in life.
>
> John Hawrylak
> Woodstown NJ
> On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 1:26:10 PM UTC-4 Roberta wrote:
>
> I've had a few emails with other RivSisters who own Platys and there are 
> quite a few of us who've commented on having to push one's saddle back as 
> far as the rails could take it.  
>
> I'm on a 55 Platy with 83cm pbh--one or two more than Leah AND I like my 
> saddle high-- and would probably like mine back a touch more, but I'm 
> unwilling to buy a new seat post.  My stem is one of the Nitto extra tall 
> ones with 10 cm, the longest they make for the extra high model.  I ended 
> up cutting (*"the horror"*) 1 cm off my Billie Bars.  Her saddle/seatpost 
> would be shorter than mine, closer to the handlebars, right

Re: [RBW] Re: Bike Makeover Thread

['John Hawrylak' via RBW Owners Bunch]

 Ok, I understand
Moving the saddle back increases the saddle to bar distance by about 2.5cm.  
This indicates the frame/stem/bar combination was too SHORT.
Then, You cut 1 cm from the bars.  This increased the saddle to bar distance, 
indicating the frame/stem/bar combination was too SHORT, but is OK now.
So you ended up increasing the saddle to bar distance 3.5 cm to get to an 
Acceptable position..
I think the Alba bar would be better based on this from the RBW write up on the 
Billie:'The Billie straight grip section is 2" (5 cm) longer than an Alba."
 So an Alba with a 10cm stem would have a saddle to bar distance 1.5cm longer 
(5 - 3.5) than what you ended up.Replace the 10 cm stem with a 9cm and you are 
within 0.5cm (5mm) of where you are at.  A 8cm stem would also work, just 5mm 
on the other side.  A 8.5cm would be mathematically correct, but the 5mm either 
way probably cant be felt..
Leah is also in a too short condition, excess seatpost SB and max length stem.. 
  The extra 5cm of straight grip length of the Billie contributes to the 
'shortness' by having the LONG straight grip section.   The fact that other Riv 
sisters had the same problem and they used Billie bars, indicate the Billie bar 
is the common problem.

RBW supplies the Platy built up in Taiwan with a Tosco bar which has a sweep 
back about the same a s a Billie.  So they seem to supply Platy's as too short 
due t9 the bar sweep back.
John HawrylakWoodstown NJ
 
On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 02:45:29 PM EDT, Roberta 
 wrote:  
 
 Thanks, John.
I must have said it wrong.  I moved my saddle AWAY from the bars, towards the 
rear end of my bike.  I think that's called aft (I had to look it up).  the 
bars were still too close, so I cut off 1cm (after a year of trying to feel 
OK).  If the stem had come in an 11cm, I would have just done that.  

I ended in a good position, so like you said "then all is good in life."
Roberta

On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 2:08:31 PM UTC-4 John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ 
wrote:

Roberta
Pushing the saddle BACK to the back of the clamp, moves the saddle FORWARD the 
maximum amount.  This indicates the saddle to bar distance is too long and your 
needed to reduce the reach.   Maybe you pushed it too far forward, most Brooks 
have only 20 to 30mm of total fore/aft motion..  
Did you cut 1cm off the bars after pushing forward the max amount??.   Cutting 
the bars indicate the saddle to bar distance is too short, the opposite of your 
original action (push saddle forward).   The 1 cm cut is within the range of 
Brooks adjustability.

But if you ended in a good position, then all is good in life.
John HawrylakWoodstown NJOn Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 1:26:10 PM UTC-4 
Roberta wrote:

I've had a few emails with other RivSisters who own Platys and there are quite 
a few of us who've commented on having to push one's saddle back as far as the 
rails could take it.  
I'm on a 55 Platy with 83cm pbh--one or two more than Leah AND I like my saddle 
high-- and would probably like mine back a touch more, but I'm unwilling to buy 
a new seat post.  My stem is one of the Nitto extra tall ones with 10 cm, the 
longest they make for the extra high model.  I ended up cutting ("the horror") 
1 cm off my Billie Bars.  Her saddle/seatpost would be shorter than mine, 
closer to the handlebars, right?, so she might feel it more.



On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 1:02:30 PM UTC-4 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

What’s weird is that I sized up! My PBH would technically fit the 50!
Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 15, 2023, at 12:55 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:



Reflecting on all the setback talk, I do think the reach may be inherently a 
tad short for the rider in question. I'm the same height as Leah - possibly 
even shorter, I'm aging and shrinking! - and Grant designed my Rivendell with a 
54.2 ST, 63 ETT to work with Boscos up way high. It's perfect. 



On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 10:33:09 AM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:

I love the new look. I also love the old look! Basically I just love that 
Raspberry Racing Platy ❤️❤️❤️

On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 6:52:55 PM UTC-7 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:

In the same vein as my Bike Style thread, I’m starting a Bike Makeover thread.
Every now and then, I get the urge to change up the look of my favorite 
Platypus. I have it perfect mechanically, but bags and grips and occasionally, 
saddles, beg to be changed up. It’s fully autumn here in the Great Lakes State, 
and my ivory Rivet was looking a little out of season. I was gifted a chestnut 
Rivet from a dear RivSister, so I decided to pull it out and put it on the 
bike. I took the brown Ergons from my other Platypus, slapped them on and sent 
her a photo. 
“That bike deserves prettier grips. Those are ugly,” she said, giving me the 
unvarnished truth. 
I looked again. She was right. Back to the drawing board. I finally found these 
grips from Rivet Cycle Works - Deb told me she had these but didn’t have them 
up on the 

Re: [RBW] Re: Bike Makeover Thread

[Joe Bernard]

Moving the saddle back moves it further away from the bars, you were 
correct. 

On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 11:45:23 AM UTC-7 Roberta wrote:

> Thanks, John.
>
> I must have said it wrong.  I moved my saddle AWAY from the bars, towards 
> the rear end of my bike.  I think that's called aft (I had to look it up).  
> the bars were still too close, so I cut off 1cm (after a year of trying to 
> feel OK).  If the stem had come in an 11cm, I would have just done that.  
>
> I ended in a good position, so like you said " then all is good in life."
>
> Roberta
>
> On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 2:08:31 PM UTC-4 John Hawrylak, Woodstown 
> NJ wrote:
>
>> Roberta
>>
>> Pushing the saddle BACK to the back of the clamp, moves the saddle 
>> FORWARD the maximum amount.  This indicates the saddle to bar distance is 
>> too long and your needed to reduce the reach.   Maybe you pushed it too far 
>> forward, most Brooks have only 20 to 30mm of total fore/aft motion..  
>>
>> Did you cut 1cm off the bars after pushing forward the max amount??.  
>>  Cutting the bars indicate the saddle to bar distance is too short, the 
>> opposite of your original action (push saddle forward).   The 1 cm cut is 
>> within the range of Brooks adjustability.
>>
>> But if you ended in a good position, then all is good in life.
>>
>> John Hawrylak
>> Woodstown NJ
>> On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 1:26:10 PM UTC-4 Roberta wrote:
>>
>>> I've had a few emails with other RivSisters who own Platys and there are 
>>> quite a few of us who've commented on having to push one's saddle back as 
>>> far as the rails could take it.  
>>>
>>> I'm on a 55 Platy with 83cm pbh--one or two more than Leah AND I like my 
>>> saddle high-- and would probably like mine back a touch more, but I'm 
>>> unwilling to buy a new seat post.  My stem is one of the Nitto extra tall 
>>> ones with 10 cm, the longest they make for the extra high model.  I ended 
>>> up cutting (*"the horror"*) 1 cm off my Billie Bars.  Her 
>>> saddle/seatpost would be shorter than mine, closer to the handlebars, 
>>> right?, so she might feel it more.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 1:02:30 PM UTC-4 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 What’s weird is that I sized up! My PBH would technically fit the 50!
 Sent from my iPhone

 On Oct 15, 2023, at 12:55 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:

 Reflecting on all the setback talk, I *do *think the reach may be 
 inherently a tad short for the rider in question. I'm the same height as 
 Leah - possibly even shorter, I'm aging and shrinking! - and Grant 
 designed 
 my Rivendell with a 54.2 ST, 63 ETT to work with Boscos up way high. It's 
 perfect. 



 On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 10:33:09 AM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:

> I love the new look. I also love the old look! Basically I just love 
> that Raspberry Racing Platy ❤️❤️❤️
>
> On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 6:52:55 PM UTC-7 Bicycle Belle Ding 
> Ding! wrote:
>
>> In the same vein as my Bike Style thread, I’m starting a Bike 
>> Makeover thread.
>>
>> Every now and then, I get the urge to change up the look of my 
>> favorite Platypus. I have it perfect mechanically, but bags and grips 
>> and 
>> occasionally, saddles, beg to be changed up. It’s fully autumn here in 
>> the 
>> Great Lakes State, and my ivory Rivet was looking a little out of 
>> season. I 
>> was gifted a chestnut Rivet from a dear RivSister, so I decided to pull 
>> it 
>> out and put it on the bike. I took the brown Ergons from my other 
>> Platypus, 
>> slapped them on and sent her a photo. 
>>
>> “That bike deserves prettier grips. Those are ugly,” she said, giving 
>> me the unvarnished truth. 
>>
>> I looked again. She was right. Back to the drawing board. I finally 
>> found these grips from Rivet Cycle Works - Deb told me she had these but 
>> didn’t have them up on the website yet. She had the exact match to my 
>> chestnut saddle and days later, I had these gorgeous stamped leather 
>> grips 
>> in hand. The bike looks positively *tonal.* The colors of the paint 
>> throw out so many different shades of pinks and reds, thanks to the 
>> abundant glitter in the metallic; adding rich leather accessories only 
>> elevates the look. The stamped designs on the leather give the bike some 
>> texture and add visual interest at the handlebar area. 
>>
>> This Platypus is like a little autumn posey. Perfect and pretty, and 
>> wholly appointed to its duty.
>>
>> Now if I can just convince Deb to make these in ivory, so I have a 
>> pair to match my ivory Rivet saddle when spring comes…
>>
>> Attached in the next post are the before and afters.
>> Leah
>>
> -- 

 You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the 
 Google Groups "R

Re: [RBW] Re: Bike Makeover Thread

[Roberta]

Thanks, John.

I must have said it wrong.  I moved my saddle AWAY from the bars, towards 
the rear end of my bike.  I think that's called aft (I had to look it up).  
the bars were still too close, so I cut off 1cm (after a year of trying to 
feel OK).  If the stem had come in an 11cm, I would have just done that.  

I ended in a good position, so like you said " then all is good in life."

Roberta

On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 2:08:31 PM UTC-4 John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ 
wrote:

> Roberta
>
> Pushing the saddle BACK to the back of the clamp, moves the saddle FORWARD 
> the maximum amount.  This indicates the saddle to bar distance is too long 
> and your needed to reduce the reach.   Maybe you pushed it too far forward, 
> most Brooks have only 20 to 30mm of total fore/aft motion..  
>
> Did you cut 1cm off the bars after pushing forward the max amount??.  
>  Cutting the bars indicate the saddle to bar distance is too short, the 
> opposite of your original action (push saddle forward).   The 1 cm cut is 
> within the range of Brooks adjustability.
>
> But if you ended in a good position, then all is good in life.
>
> John Hawrylak
> Woodstown NJ
> On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 1:26:10 PM UTC-4 Roberta wrote:
>
>> I've had a few emails with other RivSisters who own Platys and there are 
>> quite a few of us who've commented on having to push one's saddle back as 
>> far as the rails could take it.  
>>
>> I'm on a 55 Platy with 83cm pbh--one or two more than Leah AND I like my 
>> saddle high-- and would probably like mine back a touch more, but I'm 
>> unwilling to buy a new seat post.  My stem is one of the Nitto extra tall 
>> ones with 10 cm, the longest they make for the extra high model.  I ended 
>> up cutting (*"the horror"*) 1 cm off my Billie Bars.  Her 
>> saddle/seatpost would be shorter than mine, closer to the handlebars, 
>> right?, so she might feel it more.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 1:02:30 PM UTC-4 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> What’s weird is that I sized up! My PBH would technically fit the 50!
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Oct 15, 2023, at 12:55 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
>>>
>>> Reflecting on all the setback talk, I *do *think the reach may be 
>>> inherently a tad short for the rider in question. I'm the same height as 
>>> Leah - possibly even shorter, I'm aging and shrinking! - and Grant designed 
>>> my Rivendell with a 54.2 ST, 63 ETT to work with Boscos up way high. It's 
>>> perfect. 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 10:33:09 AM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>>
 I love the new look. I also love the old look! Basically I just love 
 that Raspberry Racing Platy ❤️❤️❤️

 On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 6:52:55 PM UTC-7 Bicycle Belle Ding 
 Ding! wrote:

> In the same vein as my Bike Style thread, I’m starting a Bike Makeover 
> thread.
>
> Every now and then, I get the urge to change up the look of my 
> favorite Platypus. I have it perfect mechanically, but bags and grips and 
> occasionally, saddles, beg to be changed up. It’s fully autumn here in 
> the 
> Great Lakes State, and my ivory Rivet was looking a little out of season. 
> I 
> was gifted a chestnut Rivet from a dear RivSister, so I decided to pull 
> it 
> out and put it on the bike. I took the brown Ergons from my other 
> Platypus, 
> slapped them on and sent her a photo. 
>
> “That bike deserves prettier grips. Those are ugly,” she said, giving 
> me the unvarnished truth. 
>
> I looked again. She was right. Back to the drawing board. I finally 
> found these grips from Rivet Cycle Works - Deb told me she had these but 
> didn’t have them up on the website yet. She had the exact match to my 
> chestnut saddle and days later, I had these gorgeous stamped leather 
> grips 
> in hand. The bike looks positively *tonal.* The colors of the paint 
> throw out so many different shades of pinks and reds, thanks to the 
> abundant glitter in the metallic; adding rich leather accessories only 
> elevates the look. The stamped designs on the leather give the bike some 
> texture and add visual interest at the handlebar area. 
>
> This Platypus is like a little autumn posey. Perfect and pretty, and 
> wholly appointed to its duty.
>
> Now if I can just convince Deb to make these in ivory, so I have a 
> pair to match my ivory Rivet saddle when spring comes…
>
> Attached in the next post are the before and afters.
> Leah
>
 -- 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Bike Makeover Thread

['John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Roberta

Pushing the saddle BACK to the back of the clamp, moves the saddle FORWARD 
the maximum amount.  This indicates the saddle to bar distance is too long 
and your needed to reduce the reach.   Maybe you pushed it too far forward, 
most Brooks have only 20 to 30mm of total fore/aft motion..  

Did you cut 1cm off the bars after pushing forward the max amount??.  
 Cutting the bars indicate the saddle to bar distance is too short, the 
opposite of your original action (push saddle forward).   The 1 cm cut is 
within the range of Brooks adjustability.

But if you ended in a good position, then all is good in life.

John Hawrylak
Woodstown NJ
On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 1:26:10 PM UTC-4 Roberta wrote:

> I've had a few emails with other RivSisters who own Platys and there are 
> quite a few of us who've commented on having to push one's saddle back as 
> far as the rails could take it.  
>
> I'm on a 55 Platy with 83cm pbh--one or two more than Leah AND I like my 
> saddle high-- and would probably like mine back a touch more, but I'm 
> unwilling to buy a new seat post.  My stem is one of the Nitto extra tall 
> ones with 10 cm, the longest they make for the extra high model.  I ended 
> up cutting (*"the horror"*) 1 cm off my Billie Bars.  Her saddle/seatpost 
> would be shorter than mine, closer to the handlebars, right?, so she might 
> feel it more.
>
>
>
> On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 1:02:30 PM UTC-4 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
> wrote:
>
>> What’s weird is that I sized up! My PBH would technically fit the 50!
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Oct 15, 2023, at 12:55 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
>>
>> Reflecting on all the setback talk, I *do *think the reach may be 
>> inherently a tad short for the rider in question. I'm the same height as 
>> Leah - possibly even shorter, I'm aging and shrinking! - and Grant designed 
>> my Rivendell with a 54.2 ST, 63 ETT to work with Boscos up way high. It's 
>> perfect. 
>>
>>
>>
>> On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 10:33:09 AM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>>> I love the new look. I also love the old look! Basically I just love 
>>> that Raspberry Racing Platy ❤️❤️❤️
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 6:52:55 PM UTC-7 Bicycle Belle Ding 
>>> Ding! wrote:
>>>
 In the same vein as my Bike Style thread, I’m starting a Bike Makeover 
 thread.

 Every now and then, I get the urge to change up the look of my favorite 
 Platypus. I have it perfect mechanically, but bags and grips and 
 occasionally, saddles, beg to be changed up. It’s fully autumn here in the 
 Great Lakes State, and my ivory Rivet was looking a little out of season. 
 I 
 was gifted a chestnut Rivet from a dear RivSister, so I decided to pull it 
 out and put it on the bike. I took the brown Ergons from my other 
 Platypus, 
 slapped them on and sent her a photo. 

 “That bike deserves prettier grips. Those are ugly,” she said, giving 
 me the unvarnished truth. 

 I looked again. She was right. Back to the drawing board. I finally 
 found these grips from Rivet Cycle Works - Deb told me she had these but 
 didn’t have them up on the website yet. She had the exact match to my 
 chestnut saddle and days later, I had these gorgeous stamped leather grips 
 in hand. The bike looks positively *tonal.* The colors of the paint 
 throw out so many different shades of pinks and reds, thanks to the 
 abundant glitter in the metallic; adding rich leather accessories only 
 elevates the look. The stamped designs on the leather give the bike some 
 texture and add visual interest at the handlebar area. 

 This Platypus is like a little autumn posey. Perfect and pretty, and 
 wholly appointed to its duty.

 Now if I can just convince Deb to make these in ivory, so I have a pair 
 to match my ivory Rivet saddle when spring comes…

 Attached in the next post are the before and afters.
 Leah

>>> -- 
>>
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>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/u_2mo2hU3Xo/unsubscribe
>> .
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>> rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
>>
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>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Bike Makeover Thread

['John Hawrylak, Woodstown NJ' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Leah you stated " What’s weird is that I sized up! My PBH would technically 
fit the 50!"

>From the pictures you posted, your seatpost is almost fully inserted in the 
seat tube.  This indicates the frame is the LARGEST frame for your PBH.

However, your need for a LONG reach indicates you need a frame larger than 
your PBH allows.

The RBW geo tables show the Following Effective top tube lengths for the 
Platy (all in cm)

Frame   Effective TTL
50  59
55  61.5
60  66.5

So even a 55cm frame only gives you 2.5cm more reach ( Eff TTL (55)  -  Eff 
TTL (50) ), which is not enough get you to a normal seat post SB of 2 to 3 
cm.   A 60cm frame gives toy 7.5cm more reach, allowing a 2/3cm SB seat 
post and also recuing the stem to 7 to 8cm.

If you are using 175mm cranks, you could buy 5mm by using 170mm cranks, 
allowing you to raise the saddle 5mm and lower the bars 5mm.  But that 
seems like a drop in the bucket.

Like I said, the Wayback seat post is nice since it shows "Form is 
following Function"

An alternative is bar which does not come back as far as the Billie bar 
(8.25" per RBW & a key point, 2" (5cm) longer than an Alba)).  This allows 
the saddle to move forward on the seatpost.   Alternately, cut the Billie 
bar 2cm to shorten it and see if it improves.

You could also push the saddle as far forward in the seatpost clamp to move 
the saddle forward (you probably did this already)

John Hawrylak
Woodstown NJ

On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 1:02:30 PM UTC-4 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:

> What’s weird is that I sized up! My PBH would technically fit the 50!
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Oct 15, 2023, at 12:55 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
>
> Reflecting on all the setback talk, I *do *think the reach may be 
> inherently a tad short for the rider in question. I'm the same height as 
> Leah - possibly even shorter, I'm aging and shrinking! - and Grant designed 
> my Rivendell with a 54.2 ST, 63 ETT to work with Boscos up way high. It's 
> perfect. 
>
>
>
> On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 10:33:09 AM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>> I love the new look. I also love the old look! Basically I just love that 
>> Raspberry Racing Platy ❤️❤️❤️
>>
>> On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 6:52:55 PM UTC-7 Bicycle Belle Ding 
>> Ding! wrote:
>>
>>> In the same vein as my Bike Style thread, I’m starting a Bike Makeover 
>>> thread.
>>>
>>> Every now and then, I get the urge to change up the look of my favorite 
>>> Platypus. I have it perfect mechanically, but bags and grips and 
>>> occasionally, saddles, beg to be changed up. It’s fully autumn here in the 
>>> Great Lakes State, and my ivory Rivet was looking a little out of season. I 
>>> was gifted a chestnut Rivet from a dear RivSister, so I decided to pull it 
>>> out and put it on the bike. I took the brown Ergons from my other Platypus, 
>>> slapped them on and sent her a photo. 
>>>
>>> “That bike deserves prettier grips. Those are ugly,” she said, giving me 
>>> the unvarnished truth. 
>>>
>>> I looked again. She was right. Back to the drawing board. I finally 
>>> found these grips from Rivet Cycle Works - Deb told me she had these but 
>>> didn’t have them up on the website yet. She had the exact match to my 
>>> chestnut saddle and days later, I had these gorgeous stamped leather grips 
>>> in hand. The bike looks positively *tonal.* The colors of the paint 
>>> throw out so many different shades of pinks and reds, thanks to the 
>>> abundant glitter in the metallic; adding rich leather accessories only 
>>> elevates the look. The stamped designs on the leather give the bike some 
>>> texture and add visual interest at the handlebar area. 
>>>
>>> This Platypus is like a little autumn posey. Perfect and pretty, and 
>>> wholly appointed to its duty.
>>>
>>> Now if I can just convince Deb to make these in ivory, so I have a pair 
>>> to match my ivory Rivet saddle when spring comes…
>>>
>>> Attached in the next post are the before and afters.
>>> Leah
>>>
>> -- 
>
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>  
> 
> .
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Bike Makeover Thread

[Roberta]

I've had a few emails with other RivSisters who own Platys and there are 
quite a few of us who've commented on having to push one's saddle back as 
far as the rails could take it.  

I'm on a 55 Platy with 83cm pbh--one or two more than Leah AND I like my 
saddle high-- and would probably like mine back a touch more, but I'm 
unwilling to buy a new seat post.  My stem is one of the Nitto extra tall 
ones with 10 cm, the longest they make for the extra high model.  I ended 
up cutting (*"the horror"*) 1 cm off my Billie Bars.  Her saddle/seatpost 
would be shorter than mine, closer to the handlebars, right?, so she might 
feel it more.



On Sunday, October 15, 2023 at 1:02:30 PM UTC-4 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:

> What’s weird is that I sized up! My PBH would technically fit the 50!
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Oct 15, 2023, at 12:55 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
>
> Reflecting on all the setback talk, I *do *think the reach may be 
> inherently a tad short for the rider in question. I'm the same height as 
> Leah - possibly even shorter, I'm aging and shrinking! - and Grant designed 
> my Rivendell with a 54.2 ST, 63 ETT to work with Boscos up way high. It's 
> perfect. 
>
>
>
> On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 10:33:09 AM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>> I love the new look. I also love the old look! Basically I just love that 
>> Raspberry Racing Platy ❤️❤️❤️
>>
>> On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 6:52:55 PM UTC-7 Bicycle Belle Ding 
>> Ding! wrote:
>>
>>> In the same vein as my Bike Style thread, I’m starting a Bike Makeover 
>>> thread.
>>>
>>> Every now and then, I get the urge to change up the look of my favorite 
>>> Platypus. I have it perfect mechanically, but bags and grips and 
>>> occasionally, saddles, beg to be changed up. It’s fully autumn here in the 
>>> Great Lakes State, and my ivory Rivet was looking a little out of season. I 
>>> was gifted a chestnut Rivet from a dear RivSister, so I decided to pull it 
>>> out and put it on the bike. I took the brown Ergons from my other Platypus, 
>>> slapped them on and sent her a photo. 
>>>
>>> “That bike deserves prettier grips. Those are ugly,” she said, giving me 
>>> the unvarnished truth. 
>>>
>>> I looked again. She was right. Back to the drawing board. I finally 
>>> found these grips from Rivet Cycle Works - Deb told me she had these but 
>>> didn’t have them up on the website yet. She had the exact match to my 
>>> chestnut saddle and days later, I had these gorgeous stamped leather grips 
>>> in hand. The bike looks positively *tonal.* The colors of the paint 
>>> throw out so many different shades of pinks and reds, thanks to the 
>>> abundant glitter in the metallic; adding rich leather accessories only 
>>> elevates the look. The stamped designs on the leather give the bike some 
>>> texture and add visual interest at the handlebar area. 
>>>
>>> This Platypus is like a little autumn posey. Perfect and pretty, and 
>>> wholly appointed to its duty.
>>>
>>> Now if I can just convince Deb to make these in ivory, so I have a pair 
>>> to match my ivory Rivet saddle when spring comes…
>>>
>>> Attached in the next post are the before and afters.
>>> Leah
>>>
>> -- 
>
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>  
> 
> .
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Bike Makeover Thread

[Leah Peterson]

What’s weird is that I sized up! My PBH would technically fit the 50!Sent from my iPhoneOn Oct 15, 2023, at 12:55 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:Reflecting on all the setback talk, I do think the reach may be inherently a tad short for the rider in question. I'm the same height as Leah - possibly even shorter, I'm aging and shrinking! - and Grant designed my Rivendell with a 54.2 ST, 63 ETT to work with Boscos up way high. It's perfect. On Friday, October 13, 2023 at 10:33:09 AM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:I love the new look. I also love the old look! Basically I just love that Raspberry Racing Platy ❤️❤️❤️On Wednesday, October 11, 2023 at 6:52:55 PM UTC-7 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:In the same vein as my Bike Style thread, I’m starting a Bike Makeover thread.Every now and then, I get the urge to change up the look of my favorite Platypus. I have it perfect mechanically, but bags and grips and occasionally, saddles, beg to be changed up. It’s fully autumn here in the Great Lakes State, and my ivory Rivet was looking a little out of season. I was gifted a chestnut Rivet from a dear RivSister, so I decided to pull it out and put it on the bike. I took the brown Ergons from my other Platypus, slapped them on and sent her a photo. “That bike deserves prettier grips. Those are ugly,” she said, giving me the unvarnished truth. I looked again. She was right. Back to the drawing board. I finally found these grips from Rivet Cycle Works - Deb told me she had these but didn’t have them up on the website yet. She had the exact match to my chestnut saddle and days later, I had these gorgeous stamped leather grips in hand. The bike looks positively tonal. The colors of the paint throw out so many different shades of pinks and reds, thanks to the abundant glitter in the metallic; adding rich leather accessories only elevates the look. The stamped designs on the leather give the bike some texture and add visual interest at the handlebar area. This Platypus is like a little autumn posey. Perfect and pretty, and wholly appointed to its duty.Now if I can just convince Deb to make these in ivory, so I have a pair to match my ivory Rivet saddle when spring comes…Attached in the next post are the before and afters.Leah



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