Re: [RBW] Re: Plastic fenders - never again

[Steve Palincsar]

On 06/09/2016 01:27 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:

I have five thoughts on this subject

1.  I agree that metal fenders look nicer than plastics.  I have no 
gripes with anybody who chooses to use metal fenders exclusively. 
 That said, I think plastics look fine, and are good enough for many 
things.  I use metals and plastics about 50/50 in my stable.


I only replaced the SKS fenders on my Longstaff because the weight of 
the Pixeo tail light kept breaking the fender.  I had them on that bike 
for over a dozen years and thought they worked fine, looked like they 
belonged (I mean, Longstaff is as British as it's possible to be, and 
plastic fenders pretty much are "the British way") and I went with metal 
because I was afraid the breakage issue would continue with other brands 
of plastic fenders, and because they were on sale, the price was within 
ten dollars of the plastic ones.


2.  If you are doing it right, metal fenders take a bit longer to 
install than plastics.  If it took 3 hours, you were doing it wrong. 
 If it required 3 arms and a box of ambidextrous luck, you were doing 
it wrong.  Doing it right should take about 40 minutes for plastics 
and about 60 minutes for metal.  Maybe 80 minutes for metal if they 
are not pre-drilled.  I'm speaking roughly and generally because 
usually this process is meditative, and involves a glass of wine or 
dram of whisky.


If you're doing it for the first time and you're serious about being 
meditative, 3 hours would still be within the realm of reasonable. 
Printed instructions and photographs only go so far.  If you've never 
seen it done, you're right to appreciate the delicacy of the materials 
you're working with and the costly harm you can so easily and so quickly 
done.  Taking the time to stop, play it all again in your mind and calm 
yourself down, can be time well spent.   Of course, subsequent installs 
are faster and easier, but this is one area where being in a hurry is 
wrong in every possible way.


3.  I agree 100% with Steve Palincsar that the very best fender 
installs happen on bicycles designed perfectly to accept metal 
fenders.  That means equidistant bridges, with a threaded boss already 
present at the seatstay bridge, the chainstay bridge and under the 
fork crown.  That install takes a while because you need to custom 
drill your fenders for the bike, but that's the very best way, in my 
opinion.  Everything else is a workaround.  The relative goodness of 
that workaround is in the eye of the beholder.  All of my Rivendells 
have nice threaded bridges in back.  None of my Rivendells have a 
proper fender attachment point at the fork crown, so I have to use an 
L-Bracket there.  That's a workaround, but I think it's an acceptable 
workaround.


"My mind to your mind, my thoughts to your thoughts..."

"My mind to your mind, my thoughts to your thoughts," - See more at: 
http://www.startrek.com/database_article/mind-meld-vulcan#sthash.5IQbk0p5.dpuf


4.  The most common way of "doing it wrong" in my experience, is 
trying to do a proper fender install with the bike on the ground. 
 Choosing to try to install your own fenders without having the bike 
in a proper workstand will definitely make the job more challenging 
and probably more frustrating.  Metal fenders in particular, with 
perfectly designed attachment points, require you to remove and 
reinstall the wheels multiple times.  I don't recommend attempting 
that without having the bike in a stand.  If the bike is on the 
ground, then that motivates me to try to do everything with the wheels 
on, and that just makes it harder.


Agree 1,000%.  I can't even imagine attempting to install metal fenders 
without a proper workstand.   Talk about "this won't end well..."


5.  I agree with Michael in his OP that whether or not to choose to 
use a product has little to do with the product itself and almost 
everything to do with the person holding the wrench.  Michael doesn't 
like installing plastic fenders, so he won't do it anymore.  Bravo. 
 Similarly, I find doing a bleed on mineral-oil hydraulic brakes far 
easier than doing a bleed on D.O.T. fluid hydraulic brakes, so I 
choose to avoid D.O.T. hydraulic brakes.  My choice says little 
objectively about D.O.T. brakes.  My choice says something about my 
mechanical abilities and proclivities.  People who find themselves 
similar to Michael in ability and experience might also decide to stop 
using plastic fenders.  That's totally cool.  I don't like roofing or 
drain-side plumbing, so I pay people to do those things.  I like 
construction framing and supply-side plumbing, so I do those tasks 
when they arise.  Those choices have more to do with me than they have 
to do with the nature of the tasks.


Like some guitarists like Martin Dreadnoughts over J-series Gibsons, and 
vice versa.  Neither is wrong, and both are splendid guitars. If you're 
doing it for the love of it, you shouldn't work on or use what you don't 
love.  That 

Re: [RBW] Re: Plastic fenders - never again

[Bill Lindsay]

Tom

A daruma is certainly OK.  I use the built in L-Bracket with SKS fenders 
because it's built in.  You know my fleet well, so you are familiar with 
all five of my bikes that have metal fenders.  

1.  Paramountain.  Since I was paying Ed Litton to put fender eyelets at 
the fork tips, I paid him to braze a threaded boss under the crown.  
2.  Schwinn Tempo 650B conversion.  I chose to use a Sheldon nut and 
L-bracket on that bike because a daruma would have crowded my tire.  
3.  Rawland Nordavinden.  Since I was paying Ed Litton to braze on 
centerpull posts, I paid him to braze a threaded boss under the crown
4.  Rawland Stag.  Since I was paying Jeff Lyon to build me a custom fork 
with dynamo wire guides and flexy fork blades, I paid him to braze a 
threaded boss under the crown
5.  My Pop's Windsor 700c conversion.  I used a daruma because there was 
headroom without encroaching on the tire.  

Bill


On Thursday, June 9, 2016 at 11:31:48 AM UTC-7, Pudge wrote:
>
> Bill:  
>
> Re your third thought on this subject, why not use a daruma bolt instead 
> of an L bracket for the fork crown attachment?  Much cleaner looking, thus 
> partially compensating for all those zip ties elsewhere on the bike
>
> Tom
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Jun 9, 2016, at 1:27 PM, Bill Lindsay  
> wrote:
>
> I have five thoughts on this subject 
>
> 1.  I agree that metal fenders look nicer than plastics.  I have no gripes 
> with anybody who chooses to use metal fenders exclusively.  That said, I 
> think plastics look fine, and are good enough for many things.  I use 
> metals and plastics about 50/50 in my stable.
> 2.  If you are doing it right, metal fenders take a bit longer to install 
> than plastics.  If it took 3 hours, you were doing it wrong.  If it 
> required 3 arms and a box of ambidextrous luck, you were doing it wrong. 
>  Doing it right should take about 40 minutes for plastics and about 60 
> minutes for metal.  Maybe 80 minutes for metal if they are not pre-drilled. 
>  I'm speaking roughly and generally because usually this process is 
> meditative, and involves a glass of wine or dram of whisky.  
> 3.  I agree 100% with Steve Palincsar that the very best fender installs 
> happen on bicycles designed perfectly to accept metal fenders.  That means 
> equidistant bridges, with a threaded boss already present at the seatstay 
> bridge, the chainstay bridge and under the fork crown.  That install takes 
> a while because you need to custom drill your fenders for the bike, but 
> that's the very best way, in my opinion.  Everything else is a workaround. 
>  The relative goodness of that workaround is in the eye of the beholder. 
>  All of my Rivendells have nice threaded bridges in back.  None of my 
> Rivendells have a proper fender attachment point at the fork crown, so I 
> have to use an L-Bracket there.  That's a workaround, but I think it's an 
> acceptable workaround. 
> 4.  The most common way of "doing it wrong" in my experience, is trying to 
> do a proper fender install with the bike on the ground.  Choosing to try to 
> install your own fenders without having the bike in a proper workstand will 
> definitely make the job more challenging and probably more frustrating. 
>  Metal fenders in particular, with perfectly designed attachment points, 
> require you to remove and reinstall the wheels multiple times.  I don't 
> recommend attempting that without having the bike in a stand.  If the bike 
> is on the ground, then that motivates me to try to do everything with the 
> wheels on, and that just makes it harder. 
> 5.  I agree with Michael in his OP that whether or not to choose to use a 
> product has little to do with the product itself and almost everything to 
> do with the person holding the wrench.  Michael doesn't like installing 
> plastic fenders, so he won't do it anymore.  Bravo.  Similarly, I find 
> doing a bleed on mineral-oil hydraulic brakes far easier than doing a bleed 
> on D.O.T. fluid hydraulic brakes, so I choose to avoid D.O.T. hydraulic 
> brakes.  My choice says little objectively about D.O.T. brakes.  My choice 
> says something about my mechanical abilities and proclivities.  People who 
> find themselves similar to Michael in ability and experience might also 
> decide to stop using plastic fenders.  That's totally cool.  I don't like 
> roofing or drain-side plumbing, so I pay people to do those things.  I like 
> construction framing and supply-side plumbing, so I do those tasks when 
> they arise.  Those choices have more to do with me than they have to do 
> with the nature of the tasks.  
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
> On Thursday, June 9, 2016 at 3:22:49 AM UTC-7, Michael Hechmer wrote: 
>>
>> I'm not the world's best bike mechanic, but neither am I a novice.  The 
>> first pair of plastic fenders I worked with were Bluemels, from the late 
>> 70's.  Around the turn of the millennium I first installed a pair of SKS 
>> 

Re: [RBW] Re: Plastic fenders - never again

[Allingham II, Thomas J. (Retired Partner)]

Bill:

Re your third thought on this subject, why not use a daruma bolt instead of an 
L bracket for the fork crown attachment?  Much cleaner looking, thus partially 
compensating for all those zip ties elsewhere on the bike

Tom

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 9, 2016, at 1:27 PM, Bill Lindsay 
> wrote:

I have five thoughts on this subject

1.  I agree that metal fenders look nicer than plastics.  I have no gripes with 
anybody who chooses to use metal fenders exclusively.  That said, I think 
plastics look fine, and are good enough for many things.  I use metals and 
plastics about 50/50 in my stable.
2.  If you are doing it right, metal fenders take a bit longer to install than 
plastics.  If it took 3 hours, you were doing it wrong.  If it required 3 arms 
and a box of ambidextrous luck, you were doing it wrong.  Doing it right should 
take about 40 minutes for plastics and about 60 minutes for metal.  Maybe 80 
minutes for metal if they are not pre-drilled.  I'm speaking roughly and 
generally because usually this process is meditative, and involves a glass of 
wine or dram of whisky.
3.  I agree 100% with Steve Palincsar that the very best fender installs happen 
on bicycles designed perfectly to accept metal fenders.  That means equidistant 
bridges, with a threaded boss already present at the seatstay bridge, the 
chainstay bridge and under the fork crown.  That install takes a while because 
you need to custom drill your fenders for the bike, but that's the very best 
way, in my opinion.  Everything else is a workaround.  The relative goodness of 
that workaround is in the eye of the beholder.  All of my Rivendells have nice 
threaded bridges in back.  None of my Rivendells have a proper fender 
attachment point at the fork crown, so I have to use an L-Bracket there.  
That's a workaround, but I think it's an acceptable workaround.
4.  The most common way of "doing it wrong" in my experience, is trying to do a 
proper fender install with the bike on the ground.  Choosing to try to install 
your own fenders without having the bike in a proper workstand will definitely 
make the job more challenging and probably more frustrating.  Metal fenders in 
particular, with perfectly designed attachment points, require you to remove 
and reinstall the wheels multiple times.  I don't recommend attempting that 
without having the bike in a stand.  If the bike is on the ground, then that 
motivates me to try to do everything with the wheels on, and that just makes it 
harder.
5.  I agree with Michael in his OP that whether or not to choose to use a 
product has little to do with the product itself and almost everything to do 
with the person holding the wrench.  Michael doesn't like installing plastic 
fenders, so he won't do it anymore.  Bravo.  Similarly, I find doing a bleed on 
mineral-oil hydraulic brakes far easier than doing a bleed on D.O.T. fluid 
hydraulic brakes, so I choose to avoid D.O.T. hydraulic brakes.  My choice says 
little objectively about D.O.T. brakes.  My choice says something about my 
mechanical abilities and proclivities.  People who find themselves similar to 
Michael in ability and experience might also decide to stop using plastic 
fenders.  That's totally cool.  I don't like roofing or drain-side plumbing, so 
I pay people to do those things.  I like construction framing and supply-side 
plumbing, so I do those tasks when they arise.  Those choices have more to do 
with me than they have to do with the nature of the tasks.

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Thursday, June 9, 2016 at 3:22:49 AM UTC-7, Michael Hechmer wrote:
I'm not the world's best bike mechanic, but neither am I a novice.  The first 
pair of plastic fenders I worked with were Bluemels, from the late 70's.  
Around the turn of the millennium I first installed a pair of SKS fenders.  It 
seemed pretty straight forward and simple.  You attached them to the brake bolt 
and drop outs, threaded the stays through a metal hole, and tightened a nut.  
You could trim the stays if you wanted to or just put a little plastic cap over 
the end.  Finally you fussed with the alignment.  You were done, until they 
came out of alignment.  I migrated to metal fenders.  They are just a bit more 
challenging, I needed to be more careful in getting them aligned, but once that 
was done, they would stay put for years.



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The 

Re: [RBW] Re: Plastic fenders - never again

[Allingham II, Thomas J. (Retired Partner)]

I knew roughly what Bill meant by a dram of whiskey -- a modest amount -- but I 
was curious enough about its exact meaning to look it up.  According to the 
U.S. Customary System, a dram is exactly one eighth of a fluid ounce -- less 
than a teaspoon. For fender installation, I personally need more whiskey than 
that!

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 9, 2016, at 1:27 PM, Bill Lindsay 
> wrote:

I have five thoughts on this subject

1.  I agree that metal fenders look nicer than plastics.  I have no gripes with 
anybody who chooses to use metal fenders exclusively.  That said, I think 
plastics look fine, and are good enough for many things.  I use metals and 
plastics about 50/50 in my stable.
2.  If you are doing it right, metal fenders take a bit longer to install than 
plastics.  If it took 3 hours, you were doing it wrong.  If it required 3 arms 
and a box of ambidextrous luck, you were doing it wrong.  Doing it right should 
take about 40 minutes for plastics and about 60 minutes for metal.  Maybe 80 
minutes for metal if they are not pre-drilled.  I'm speaking roughly and 
generally because usually this process is meditative, and involves a glass of 
wine or dram of whisky.
3.  I agree 100% with Steve Palincsar that the very best fender installs happen 
on bicycles designed perfectly to accept metal fenders.  That means equidistant 
bridges, with a threaded boss already present at the seatstay bridge, the 
chainstay bridge and under the fork crown.  That install takes a while because 
you need to custom drill your fenders for the bike, but that's the very best 
way, in my opinion.  Everything else is a workaround.  The relative goodness of 
that workaround is in the eye of the beholder.  All of my Rivendells have nice 
threaded bridges in back.  None of my Rivendells have a proper fender 
attachment point at the fork crown, so I have to use an L-Bracket there.  
That's a workaround, but I think it's an acceptable workaround.
4.  The most common way of "doing it wrong" in my experience, is trying to do a 
proper fender install with the bike on the ground.  Choosing to try to install 
your own fenders without having the bike in a proper workstand will definitely 
make the job more challenging and probably more frustrating.  Metal fenders in 
particular, with perfectly designed attachment points, require you to remove 
and reinstall the wheels multiple times.  I don't recommend attempting that 
without having the bike in a stand.  If the bike is on the ground, then that 
motivates me to try to do everything with the wheels on, and that just makes it 
harder.
5.  I agree with Michael in his OP that whether or not to choose to use a 
product has little to do with the product itself and almost everything to do 
with the person holding the wrench.  Michael doesn't like installing plastic 
fenders, so he won't do it anymore.  Bravo.  Similarly, I find doing a bleed on 
mineral-oil hydraulic brakes far easier than doing a bleed on D.O.T. fluid 
hydraulic brakes, so I choose to avoid D.O.T. hydraulic brakes.  My choice says 
little objectively about D.O.T. brakes.  My choice says something about my 
mechanical abilities and proclivities.  People who find themselves similar to 
Michael in ability and experience might also decide to stop using plastic 
fenders.  That's totally cool.  I don't like roofing or drain-side plumbing, so 
I pay people to do those things.  I like construction framing and supply-side 
plumbing, so I do those tasks when they arise.  Those choices have more to do 
with me than they have to do with the nature of the tasks.

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Thursday, June 9, 2016 at 3:22:49 AM UTC-7, Michael Hechmer wrote:
I'm not the world's best bike mechanic, but neither am I a novice.  The first 
pair of plastic fenders I worked with were Bluemels, from the late 70's.  
Around the turn of the millennium I first installed a pair of SKS fenders.  It 
seemed pretty straight forward and simple.  You attached them to the brake bolt 
and drop outs, threaded the stays through a metal hole, and tightened a nut.  
You could trim the stays if you wanted to or just put a little plastic cap over 
the end.  Finally you fussed with the alignment.  You were done, until they 
came out of alignment.  I migrated to metal fenders.  They are just a bit more 
challenging, I needed to be more careful in getting them aligned, but once that 
was done, they would stay put for years.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Plastic fenders - never again

[Ron Mc]

Major Honjo fan here, but I also like my SKS raceblades (XL) on the bike 
with no bosses - they work with my Barlows and I adding a PDW Origami on 
the seat tube makes them close enough to full coverage.  


After getting them properly adjusted, they're 2 min. total to install, and 
30s to remove.  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Plastic fenders - never again

[Will]

Good point. If I had the tail light mounted on the fender I'd need metal. 
As it is I'm running a Topline on a Tubus rack. Love the Topline. Great 
rear light. 

On Thursday, June 9, 2016 at 7:44:21 AM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> I had SKS fenders on my Longstaff for many years.  Bluemels would have 
> been the perfect choice, had they been available -- epitome of classic 
> British framebuilding coupled with the traditional British fender -- but 
> when I switched from a sidewall generator driven tail light to a Pixeo 
> battery light the rear fender cracked at the lamp mount.  A replacement 
> fender (a take-off from the Rambouillet I used to own [hence obligatory Riv 
> content]) cracked in the identical place.  So last Christmas I decided to 
> buy something new.
>
> At the time, Longboards were within a few dollars of the price of VO metal 
> fenders during their Christmas sale, so I got these  
> http://store.velo-orange.com/index.php/accessories/fenders/700c/vo-polished-45mm-facette-fenders-700c.html
>
>
>
> Here they are on the bike:
>
>
>
> As Will said of his P65s, great coverage, light, quiet and better 
> looking.  Standard Honjo-type install, with all that means.  They are 
> pre-drilled.
>
> On 06/09/2016 08:20 AM, Will wrote:
>
> Meh... I'm using P65s. Great coverage. Light. Quiet. Better looking. :-)
>
> On Thursday, June 9, 2016 at 5:22:49 AM UTC-5, Michael Hechmer wrote: 
>>
>> I'm not the world's best bike mechanic, but neither am I a novice.  The 
>> first pair of plastic fenders I worked with were Bluemels, from the late 
>> 70's.  Around the turn of the millennium I first installed a pair of SKS 
>> fenders.  It seemed pretty straight forward and simple.  You attached them 
>> to the brake bolt and drop outs, threaded the stays through a metal hole, 
>> and tightened a nut.  You could trim the stays if you wanted to or just put 
>> a little plastic cap over the end.  Finally you fussed with the alignment. 
>>  You were done, until they came out of alignment.  I migrated to metal 
>> fenders.  They are just a bit more challenging, I needed to be more careful 
>> in getting them aligned, but once that was done, they would stay put for 
>> years. 
>>
>> Two years ago I bought a pair of the cream "longboys" to replace a broken 
>> eight year old Honjo on my Ram.  At that time I discovered that SKS had 
>> decided to make one small change and complicated installation immensely. 
>>  The little plastic cap that fit over the end of the stay has been replaced 
>> with an integrated plastic anchor.  Presumably these will keep the cap on 
>> the stay, but they also require threading the stay while holding the screw 
>> and bolt in place.  They also limit how far the stay can go past the bolt, 
>> so that the stay must be cut before you get a good look at how long you 
>> want them to be.  All together annoying. 
>>
>> Anyway, it turned out I didn't like the cream against the Ram blue, so I 
>> replaced them with VO aluminum.  Yesterday I put those SKS fenders on my 
>> daughters new Chevy-ut.  What a PIA.  The third time one or more of the 
>> little stay bolts popped out all over the floor while I was trying to mate 
>> up its sister I swore I would never work on plastic fenders again.  Then, 
>> with the stays perhaps a few mm too long I struggled for a long time trying 
>> simultaneously to line up the arch and remove a persistent twist.
>>
>> Give me a good metal fender any day.  They just require care, not three 
>> hands and a box full of ambidextrous luck.
>>
>> BTW, just bar tape & kickstand to go on the Cheviut.  Hopefully pictures, 
>> later today.
>>
>> Michael
>>
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