RE: [TANKS] fiberglass question
Those ships are really beautiful. -Original Message- From: rctankcombat@googlegroups.com [mailto:rctankcombat@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Frank Pittelli Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2015 2:22 PM To: rctankcombat@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [TANKS] fiberglass question Laying fiberglass inside a positive part for reinforcement is a good approach in a lot of cases. That gives you all the strength of a composite part, but eliminates the need for lots of finish work. It also allows you to use thinner hull materials that are easier to work with. All of my wooden sailboat hulls are made like that, http://pittelli.com/schooner/photos/ships/Frank/Wasa/index.html http://pittelli.com/schooner/photos/ships/Frank/Junk/index.html providing a plank-on-frame exterior, with a strong and waterproof interior. The wood exterior is sealed with any number of materials (resin, titebond, polyurethane) and is essentially waterproof, but the epoxy-glass interior guarantees hull integrity even as the wood ages and gets beat up. -- -- You are currently subscribed to the R/C Tank Combat group. To post a message, send email to rctankcombat@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe, send email to rctankcombat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com Visit the group at http://groups.google.com/group/rctankcombat --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups R/C Tank Combat group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rctankcombat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- -- You are currently subscribed to the R/C Tank Combat group. To post a message, send email to rctankcombat@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe, send email to rctankcombat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com Visit the group at http://groups.google.com/group/rctankcombat --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups R/C Tank Combat group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rctankcombat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [TANKS] fiberglass question
From the distant depths of my memory it appears that reinforcements are like girlfriends: - Boring = cheap - Sexy = expensive On Tuesday, March 24, 2015 at 6:19:41 PM UTC-4, Frank Pittelli wrote: Dowel == Boring Carbon Fiber == Sexy -- -- You are currently subscribed to the R/C Tank Combat group. To post a message, send email to rctankcombat@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe, send email to rctankcombat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com Visit the group at http://groups.google.com/group/rctankcombat --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups R/C Tank Combat group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rctankcombat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [TANKS] fiberglass question
Bondo == ??? On Tue, Mar 24, 2015 at 6:19 PM, Frank Pittelli frank.pitte...@gmail.com wrote: Dowel == Boring Carbon Fiber == Sexy -- -- You are currently subscribed to the R/C Tank Combat group. To post a message, send email to rctankcombat@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe, send email to rctankcombat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com Visit the group at http://groups.google.com/group/rctankcombat --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups R/C Tank Combat group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rctankcombat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- Isaac Goldman 5142334423 This message contains confidential information and is intended only for the individual named. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. -- -- You are currently subscribed to the R/C Tank Combat group. To post a message, send email to rctankcombat@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe, send email to rctankcombat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com Visit the group at http://groups.google.com/group/rctankcombat --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups R/C Tank Combat group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rctankcombat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [TANKS] fiberglass question
I made something very similar, but for the broad plane surfaces I made ribs using thin dowel covered with a couple of layers of cloth. I borrowed this technique from kayaks where (at least many years ago) it was common to lay a piece of hose covered in cloth to form the keel. On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 10:42:55 AM UTC-4, Frank Pittelli wrote: ... If you think flexing will be a problem on a flat section (like the top), use carbon fiber cloth in those areas to stiffen them. ... -- -- You are currently subscribed to the R/C Tank Combat group. To post a message, send email to rctankcombat@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe, send email to rctankcombat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com Visit the group at http://groups.google.com/group/rctankcombat --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups R/C Tank Combat group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rctankcombat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [TANKS] fiberglass question = PVA spray
I was curious about PVA spray and stumbled across this: http://www.westsystem.com/ss/assets/Uploads/PVAhairspray.pdf Use at your own risk. On Saturday, March 21, 2015 at 10:42:55 AM UTC-4, Frank Pittelli wrote: ... Finally, spray two light coats of PVA on the surface ... -- -- You are currently subscribed to the R/C Tank Combat group. To post a message, send email to rctankcombat@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe, send email to rctankcombat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com Visit the group at http://groups.google.com/group/rctankcombat --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups R/C Tank Combat group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rctankcombat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [TANKS] fiberglass question
Dowel == Boring Carbon Fiber == Sexy -- -- You are currently subscribed to the R/C Tank Combat group. To post a message, send email to rctankcombat@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe, send email to rctankcombat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com Visit the group at http://groups.google.com/group/rctankcombat --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups R/C Tank Combat group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rctankcombat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
RE: [TANKS] fiberglass question
Thanks, Frank. Fiberglass 101 is the level of instruction I need. Stu, yours is a good idea, too. There are some thin vertical 'skirts' around the bottom of the VPX-5000 and I'm not sure they'll take much abuse without being glassed over. Still, I already have both the 'positive' upper hull (the one I was going to glass over) and now the 'negative' upper hull (for the mold). I didn't have anything to do with the positive piece, so I went ahead and glassed the inside. Maybe it will give a me spare hull. At the very least I got some practice with layup before I make the molded hull. - Doug -Original Message- From: rctankcombat@googlegroups.com [mailto:rctankcombat@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Frank Pittelli Sent: Monday, March 23, 2015 1:06 PM To: rctankcombat@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [TANKS] fiberglass question You don't wait any time between layers. 1) Spread resin on the mold 2) Lay in the first layer of mat. Stipple with brush or use a resin roller to push the mat into the resin until it is all wet. 3) Lay in the second layer of mat. Use brush or roller to push into first layer. Brush on some additional resin as need (sparingly) to fully wet second layer. 4) Lay in the final layer of cloth. Use brush or roller to push into the second layer. You shouldn't need any additional resin for the last layer, but brush in more if necessary. In general, you want to use as little resin as possible to wet out the mat/cloth. Resin doesn't add any strength, just weight and bulk. Use firm pressure on the roller to push mat/cloth through the resin to remove bubbles and ensure full saturation. The most important thing is to remember that polyester resin cures much faster in the cup than on a flat surface. It's always better to mix a couple small batches then one large batch. At room temperature, it takes a good half-hour before the resin in the mold will start to cure enough to cause problems, so you've got time to mix, lay up and roll each layer. Don't rush, but don't spend too much time on each layer. Practice makes perfect. Always cut all of the mat/cloth pieces that you'll need before mixing any resin. Set the pieces in the dry mold and make sure they cover all the flat surfaces. Leave about an inch extra over the edges of the mold, no more, no less. Too much or too little excess will cause problems. Also, don't try to use one piece to go around inside or outside corners. Cut separate pieces that meet in the corner. When you brush/roll the layer the fibers will meet in the corner and form a nice edge. Always brush/roll towards the corner. The mat/cloth moves and stretches in the direction of pressure. Some people lay a wet putty of resin and a filler (loose fibers, sawdust, kevlar pulp, etc) to reinforce the corner. But, since the putty is concentrated it cures faster then the straight panels, so you have to lay up mat/cloth over the puttied corners fast enough to prevent them curing too early. You probably won't need putty for your turret corners because they are fairly shallow, but it's a technique you'll want to learn for more complicated molds. Practice makes perfect. On 3/22/2015 10:26 PM, Doug Conn wrote: How long should I wait in between successive layers of cloth ? I do not want the first layer to completely cure before adding the next, right ? -- -- You are currently subscribed to the R/C Tank Combat group. To post a message, send email to rctankcombat@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe, send email to rctankcombat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com Visit the group at http://groups.google.com/group/rctankcombat --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups R/C Tank Combat group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rctankcombat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- -- You are currently subscribed to the R/C Tank Combat group. To post a message, send email to rctankcombat@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe, send email to rctankcombat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com Visit the group at http://groups.google.com/group/rctankcombat --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups R/C Tank Combat group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rctankcombat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [TANKS] fiberglass question
Bondo == Inevitable -- -- You are currently subscribed to the R/C Tank Combat group. To post a message, send email to rctankcombat@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe, send email to rctankcombat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com Visit the group at http://groups.google.com/group/rctankcombat --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups R/C Tank Combat group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rctankcombat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [TANKS] fiberglass question
You don't wait any time between layers. 1) Spread resin on the mold 2) Lay in the first layer of mat. Stipple with brush or use a resin roller to push the mat into the resin until it is all wet. 3) Lay in the second layer of mat. Use brush or roller to push into first layer. Brush on some additional resin as need (sparingly) to fully wet second layer. 4) Lay in the final layer of cloth. Use brush or roller to push into the second layer. You shouldn't need any additional resin for the last layer, but brush in more if necessary. In general, you want to use as little resin as possible to wet out the mat/cloth. Resin doesn't add any strength, just weight and bulk. Use firm pressure on the roller to push mat/cloth through the resin to remove bubbles and ensure full saturation. The most important thing is to remember that polyester resin cures much faster in the cup than on a flat surface. It's always better to mix a couple small batches then one large batch. At room temperature, it takes a good half-hour before the resin in the mold will start to cure enough to cause problems, so you've got time to mix, lay up and roll each layer. Don't rush, but don't spend too much time on each layer. Practice makes perfect. Always cut all of the mat/cloth pieces that you'll need before mixing any resin. Set the pieces in the dry mold and make sure they cover all the flat surfaces. Leave about an inch extra over the edges of the mold, no more, no less. Too much or too little excess will cause problems. Also, don't try to use one piece to go around inside or outside corners. Cut separate pieces that meet in the corner. When you brush/roll the layer the fibers will meet in the corner and form a nice edge. Always brush/roll towards the corner. The mat/cloth moves and stretches in the direction of pressure. Some people lay a wet putty of resin and a filler (loose fibers, sawdust, kevlar pulp, etc) to reinforce the corner. But, since the putty is concentrated it cures faster then the straight panels, so you have to lay up mat/cloth over the puttied corners fast enough to prevent them curing too early. You probably won't need putty for your turret corners because they are fairly shallow, but it's a technique you'll want to learn for more complicated molds. Practice makes perfect. On 3/22/2015 10:26 PM, Doug Conn wrote: How long should I wait in between successive layers of cloth ? I do not want the first layer to completely cure before adding the next, right ? -- -- You are currently subscribed to the R/C Tank Combat group. To post a message, send email to rctankcombat@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe, send email to rctankcombat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com Visit the group at http://groups.google.com/group/rctankcombat --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups R/C Tank Combat group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rctankcombat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
RE: [TANKS] fiberglass question
How long should I wait in between successive layers of cloth ? I do not want the first layer to completely cure before adding the next, right ? Thanks. -Original Message- From: rctankcombat@googlegroups.com [mailto:rctankcombat@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Doug Conn Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2015 1:43 PM To: rctankcombat@googlegroups.com Subject: RE: [TANKS] fiberglass question Thanks a lot, Frank. I didn't realize it would be so hard to glass over the hardboard. I thought about making a mold but it seemed like a waste or effort if I only wanted one part. Your idea of a single use mold made from the hardboard structure is a great one. I think building a box strong enough to press the glass into without breaking might be hard, but I'll give it a shot. - Doug -Original Message- From: rctankcombat@googlegroups.com [mailto:rctankcombat@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Frank Pittelli Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2015 10:43 AM To: rctankcombat@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [TANKS] fiberglass question Warning: If you glass the outside of the hardboard it will require a lot of time to yield a nice, smooth finished surface. First of all, multi-faceted surfaces need to be laid up in multiple passes, because it is hard to cover an outside corner without creating bubbles (surface tension is your enemy when laying up fiberglass). With your turret, minimally 3 lay ups would be required. Second, after the lay ups, you'll need to sand/fill multiple times to get a smooth, metal-like, surface. Personally, I would use the hard-board to make a one-time negative mold and then lay up the fiberglass inside the mold form to make an all-fiberglass part. The result will be lighter, will provide more interior room, will be completely waterproof and will require less sanding on the finished surface. Basically, just make your hard-board box so that the interior surface of the form is the desired exterior measurement of the turret. Hard-board is great for molds, because it is easy to work with and has a nice smooth finish. For flat sections, place reinforcing ribs on the outside as needed so that you can press on those sections when laying up the glass without them flexing. Tack nail or glue them in place. After the box is built, coat the inside with a couple coats of sanding sealer, with a very light sanding in-between each coat. Then, rub on a couple coats of paste wax to seal it completely. Finally, spray two light coats of PVA on the surface, allowing it to dry in between coats. PVA forms a water-soluble film that makes it easier to release the part from the mold. Your turret is simple enough that you might not need PVA, but it never hurts to use it. For lay up, I always use a layer of mat against the mold, because it yields the best outer surface (no cloth pattern). Then, another layer of mat to build up the thickness and finally a layer of cloth to keep things neat on the inside and add more strength. That's plenty strong for our purposes, especially given the structure of the turret. If you think flexing will be a problem on a flat section (like the top), use carbon fiber cloth in those areas to stiffen them. After the part has cured to touch, slowly pry it away from the mold, a little section at a time and it will eventually pop out. Wash off the PVA residue with water, trim the edges and you should have a perfect turret. You can then cut whatever holes are needed. If you've never done a mold before, make a smaller version and learn on that. It's not as complicated as it sounds. And, once you've mastered molding, your 3D printer will become the perfect mold-making tool. -- -- You are currently subscribed to the R/C Tank Combat group. To post a message, send email to rctankcombat@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe, send email to rctankcombat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com Visit the group at http://groups.google.com/group/rctankcombat --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups R/C Tank Combat group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rctankcombat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- -- You are currently subscribed to the R/C Tank Combat group. To post a message, send email to rctankcombat@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe, send email to rctankcombat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com Visit the group at http://groups.google.com/group/rctankcombat --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups R/C Tank Combat group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rctankcombat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- -- You are currently subscribed to the R/C Tank Combat group. To post a message, send email to rctankcombat@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe, send email to rctankcombat
RE: [TANKS] fiberglass question
Thanks a lot, Frank. I didn't realize it would be so hard to glass over the hardboard. I thought about making a mold but it seemed like a waste or effort if I only wanted one part. Your idea of a single use mold made from the hardboard structure is a great one. I think building a box strong enough to press the glass into without breaking might be hard, but I'll give it a shot. - Doug -Original Message- From: rctankcombat@googlegroups.com [mailto:rctankcombat@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Frank Pittelli Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2015 10:43 AM To: rctankcombat@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [TANKS] fiberglass question Warning: If you glass the outside of the hardboard it will require a lot of time to yield a nice, smooth finished surface. First of all, multi-faceted surfaces need to be laid up in multiple passes, because it is hard to cover an outside corner without creating bubbles (surface tension is your enemy when laying up fiberglass). With your turret, minimally 3 lay ups would be required. Second, after the lay ups, you'll need to sand/fill multiple times to get a smooth, metal-like, surface. Personally, I would use the hard-board to make a one-time negative mold and then lay up the fiberglass inside the mold form to make an all-fiberglass part. The result will be lighter, will provide more interior room, will be completely waterproof and will require less sanding on the finished surface. Basically, just make your hard-board box so that the interior surface of the form is the desired exterior measurement of the turret. Hard-board is great for molds, because it is easy to work with and has a nice smooth finish. For flat sections, place reinforcing ribs on the outside as needed so that you can press on those sections when laying up the glass without them flexing. Tack nail or glue them in place. After the box is built, coat the inside with a couple coats of sanding sealer, with a very light sanding in-between each coat. Then, rub on a couple coats of paste wax to seal it completely. Finally, spray two light coats of PVA on the surface, allowing it to dry in between coats. PVA forms a water-soluble film that makes it easier to release the part from the mold. Your turret is simple enough that you might not need PVA, but it never hurts to use it. For lay up, I always use a layer of mat against the mold, because it yields the best outer surface (no cloth pattern). Then, another layer of mat to build up the thickness and finally a layer of cloth to keep things neat on the inside and add more strength. That's plenty strong for our purposes, especially given the structure of the turret. If you think flexing will be a problem on a flat section (like the top), use carbon fiber cloth in those areas to stiffen them. After the part has cured to touch, slowly pry it away from the mold, a little section at a time and it will eventually pop out. Wash off the PVA residue with water, trim the edges and you should have a perfect turret. You can then cut whatever holes are needed. If you've never done a mold before, make a smaller version and learn on that. It's not as complicated as it sounds. And, once you've mastered molding, your 3D printer will become the perfect mold-making tool. -- -- You are currently subscribed to the R/C Tank Combat group. To post a message, send email to rctankcombat@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe, send email to rctankcombat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com Visit the group at http://groups.google.com/group/rctankcombat --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups R/C Tank Combat group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rctankcombat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- -- You are currently subscribed to the R/C Tank Combat group. To post a message, send email to rctankcombat@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe, send email to rctankcombat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com Visit the group at http://groups.google.com/group/rctankcombat --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups R/C Tank Combat group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rctankcombat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [TANKS] fiberglass question
Warning: If you glass the outside of the hardboard it will require a lot of time to yield a nice, smooth finished surface. First of all, multi-faceted surfaces need to be laid up in multiple passes, because it is hard to cover an outside corner without creating bubbles (surface tension is your enemy when laying up fiberglass). With your turret, minimally 3 lay ups would be required. Second, after the lay ups, you'll need to sand/fill multiple times to get a smooth, metal-like, surface. Personally, I would use the hard-board to make a one-time negative mold and then lay up the fiberglass inside the mold form to make an all-fiberglass part. The result will be lighter, will provide more interior room, will be completely waterproof and will require less sanding on the finished surface. Basically, just make your hard-board box so that the interior surface of the form is the desired exterior measurement of the turret. Hard-board is great for molds, because it is easy to work with and has a nice smooth finish. For flat sections, place reinforcing ribs on the outside as needed so that you can press on those sections when laying up the glass without them flexing. Tack nail or glue them in place. After the box is built, coat the inside with a couple coats of sanding sealer, with a very light sanding in-between each coat. Then, rub on a couple coats of paste wax to seal it completely. Finally, spray two light coats of PVA on the surface, allowing it to dry in between coats. PVA forms a water-soluble film that makes it easier to release the part from the mold. Your turret is simple enough that you might not need PVA, but it never hurts to use it. For lay up, I always use a layer of mat against the mold, because it yields the best outer surface (no cloth pattern). Then, another layer of mat to build up the thickness and finally a layer of cloth to keep things neat on the inside and add more strength. That's plenty strong for our purposes, especially given the structure of the turret. If you think flexing will be a problem on a flat section (like the top), use carbon fiber cloth in those areas to stiffen them. After the part has cured to touch, slowly pry it away from the mold, a little section at a time and it will eventually pop out. Wash off the PVA residue with water, trim the edges and you should have a perfect turret. You can then cut whatever holes are needed. If you've never done a mold before, make a smaller version and learn on that. It's not as complicated as it sounds. And, once you've mastered molding, your 3D printer will become the perfect mold-making tool. -- -- You are currently subscribed to the R/C Tank Combat group. To post a message, send email to rctankcombat@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe, send email to rctankcombat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com Visit the group at http://groups.google.com/group/rctankcombat --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups R/C Tank Combat group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rctankcombat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[TANKS] fiberglass question
Hello - I plan to make Small Fry's upper hull form glassed over 3mm hardboard. I've only done a little fiberglass and that was quite a while ago. Can anybody help me out with a few questions. A diagram of the upper hull is below. * How many layers of glass should I plan on ? I forget the exactly weight of the cloth I bought, but IIRC it's a medium weight material. * My plan is glass over the whole thing and then cut a hole for the turret. Does that make sense ? * Any other tips ? Thanks, Doug -- -- You are currently subscribed to the R/C Tank Combat group. To post a message, send email to rctankcombat@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe, send email to rctankcombat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com Visit the group at http://groups.google.com/group/rctankcombat --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups R/C Tank Combat group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rctankcombat+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
