Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[Søren Schramm Rasmussen]

Thank you very much, that helped me out alot :D

Great, now i need to get those cnc milling machines running again, so the
project can come alive again :)



2014-05-28 16:16 GMT+02:00 'Mike Mangus' via R/C Tank Combat <
rctankcombat@googlegroups.com>:

> P-Mix is short for "programmable mixing" which allows the user to slave
> any channel to a second channel.  Usually the p-mix can set the type of
> interaction (one way or two way between channels), the rate of mixing, and
> sometimes exponential rate of mixing between the channels.
>
> V-tail is a pre-set mixing between two channels, usually the rudder and
> elevator channels.  Dual aileron mix is another preset mix between the
> aileron channel and channel 6.
>
> I usually use the p-mix on a tank to combine the aileron channel with the
> elevator channel for a single stick control of movement.
>
> Hope this helped.  :)
>
> Mike M
>
>*From:* Frank Pittelli 
> *To:* rctankcombat@googlegroups.com
> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 28, 2014 8:22 AM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project
>
> Sorry, but I don't have any experience with the DX6 and I'm not sure
> what "P-mixes" do or the specifics of the V-tail mixing.  Perhaps
> someone who has used that radio can provide more details.
>
> On 5/23/2014 3:37 AM, S.Schramm wrote:
> > In the piece quoted below you talk about tank style channel mixing. I
> > own a spektrum DX6i, and i found some specs regarding mixing:
> > #
> > # Compatible with any existing DSM & DSM2 receivers
> > # Airplane Programming Features: Flaps, P-mixes, Dual aileron, V-tail,
> > Delta, Differential
> > # Heli Programming Features: Gyro adjust, Graphic throttle curve, Graphic
> > pitch curve, P-mixes, Revo mix, Swash type (Normal, and CCPM 120)
> > Can you tell from the specs if it has the mixing feature or not ?
>
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Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[Frank Pittelli]

Thanks Mike.  That answers the original question precisely.

On 5/28/2014 10:16 AM, 'Mike Mangus' via R/C Tank Combat wrote:

I usually use the p-mix on a tank to combine the aileron channel with
the elevator channel for a single stick control of movement.


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Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

['Mike Mangus' via R/C Tank Combat]

P-Mix is short for "programmable mixing" which allows the user to slave any 
channel to a second channel.  Usually the p-mix can set the type of interaction 
(one way or two way between channels), the rate of mixing, and sometimes 
exponential rate of mixing between the channels.
 
V-tail is a pre-set mixing between two channels, usually the rudder and 
elevator channels.  Dual aileron mix is another preset mix between the aileron 
channel and channel 6.
 
I usually use the p-mix on a tank to combine the aileron channel with the 
elevator channel for a single stick control of movement.  
 
Hope this helped.  :)
 
Mike M
  


 From: Frank Pittelli 
To: rctankcombat@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2014 8:22 AM
Subject: Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project
  

Sorry, but I don't have any experience with the DX6 and I'm not sure 
what "P-mixes" do or the specifics of the V-tail mixing.  Perhaps 
someone who has used that radio can provide more details.

On 5/23/2014 3:37 AM, S.Schramm wrote:
> In the piece quoted below you talk about tank style channel mixing. I
> own a spektrum DX6i, and i found some specs regarding mixing:
> #
> # Compatible with any existing DSM & DSM2 receivers
> # Airplane Programming Features: Flaps, P-mixes, Dual aileron, V-tail,
> Delta, Differential
> # Heli Programming Features: Gyro adjust, Graphic throttle curve, Graphic
> pitch curve, P-mixes, Revo mix, Swash type (Normal, and CCPM 120)
> Can you tell from the specs if it has the mixing feature or not ?

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Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[Frank Pittelli]

Sorry, but I don't have any experience with the DX6 and I'm not sure 
what "P-mixes" do or the specifics of the V-tail mixing.  Perhaps 
someone who has used that radio can provide more details.


On 5/23/2014 3:37 AM, S.Schramm wrote:

In the piece quoted below you talk about tank style channel mixing. I
own a spektrum DX6i, and i found some specs regarding mixing:
#
# Compatible with any existing DSM & DSM2 receivers
# Airplane Programming Features: Flaps, P-mixes, Dual aileron, V-tail,
Delta, Differential
# Heli Programming Features: Gyro adjust, Graphic throttle curve, Graphic
pitch curve, P-mixes, Revo mix, Swash type (Normal, and CCPM 120)
Can you tell from the specs if it has the mixing feature or not ?


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Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[S.Schramm]

Hi Frank.
I've been away from the project for a while due to Family expansion v.03 
going on, and home improvements :) 
I've been reading through all the really good answers, pros and cons of 
different hardware. I reached the point where i need to get my hands on 
some eletronics.
In the piece quoted  below you talk about tank style channel mixing. I own 
a spektrum DX6i, and i found some specs regarding mixing:
Compatible with any existing DSM & DSM2 receivers
Airplane Programming Features: Flaps, P-mixes, Dual aileron, V-tail, Delta, 
Differential
Heli Programming Features: Gyro adjust, Graphic throttle curve, Graphic 
pitch curve, P-mixes, Revo mix, Swash type (Normal, and CCPM 120)
 
Can you tell from the specs if it has the mixing feature or not ?
 

> " 2) You'll need either a dual motor controller or two separate motor 
> controllers plus a mixing circuit.  Affordable options include the 
> Sabretooth 2x25 ($125) and Sabretooth 2x60 ($190), depending on the size 
> of your motors and their current draw.  We've also recently started 
> experimenting with the Talon SR Speed Controller ($60).  That's a single 
> motor controller, so you'll need two of them and a mixing circuit ($40), 
> which puts the total price in the same ballpark as a dual motor 
> controller. * If your radio system already has tank-style channel mixing,* 
> then you won't need the additional mixing circuit.  Even when scratch 
> built with custom parts, getting the price below $100 is nearly 
> impossible for a repeatable, reliable and easily wired solution. "
>
>

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Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[Frank Pittelli]

Simple, yes.  Profitable, NO.

That said, I will be starting work on some prototype circuits after the 
next battle.  So, if anyone has suggestions, now's the time to post them.


On 9/10/2013 4:42 PM, TyngTech wrote:

Well Frank, I see a void in the market in regards to a double throw R/C
switch. Since you have the code you wrote for my custom warship gun
switches, it'd be a simple matter for Cheap Control Systems to get
something on the market ASAP!


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Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[TyngTech]

Well Frank,  I see a void in the market in regards to a double throw R/C 
switch.  Since you have the code you wrote for my custom warship gun 
switches, it'd be a simple matter for Cheap Control Systems to get 
something on the market ASAP!

S


On Monday, September 9, 2013 5:30:54 PM UTC-4, Frank Pittelli wrote:
>
> Both are decent products.  It's just a shame, however, that they can 
> only control a single device using a full servo channel.  They could 
> have easily added a dual relay or two MOSFETs to control two devices 
> using a single servo channel without much additional cost. 
>
> On 9/9/2013 5:10 PM, Mike Lyons wrote: 
> > I used a Dimension Engineering PicoSwitch (see 
> > http://www.dimensionengineering.com/products/picoswitch ) in Bazooka 
> > Joe. 
>
> > I'm about to test a Pololu low-side MOSFET switch a (see 
> > http://www.pololu.com/catalog/product/1210 ) 
>

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Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[Mike Lyons]

Agreed.  It would be very nice to have a SPDT R/C switch instead of the 
SPST functionality each of these provides.


On Monday, September 9, 2013 5:30:54 PM UTC-4, Frank Pittelli wrote:
>
> Both are decent products.  It's just a shame, however, that they can 
> only control a single device using a full servo channel.  They could 
> have easily added a dual relay or two MOSFETs to control two devices 
> using a single servo channel without much additional cost. 
>

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Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[Frank Pittelli]

Both are decent products.  It's just a shame, however, that they can 
only control a single device using a full servo channel.  They could 
have easily added a dual relay or two MOSFETs to control two devices 
using a single servo channel without much additional cost.


On 9/9/2013 5:10 PM, Mike Lyons wrote:

I used a Dimension Engineering PicoSwitch (see
http://www.dimensionengineering.com/products/picoswitch ) in Bazooka
Joe.



I'm about to test a Pololu low-side MOSFET switch a (see
http://www.pololu.com/catalog/product/1210 )


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Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[Mike Lyons]

I used a Dimension Engineering PicoSwitch (see 
http://www.dimensionengineering.com/products/picoswitch ) in Bazooka Joe. 
 It's a nice little relay with a green LED that lights when the relay 
contacts are closed.  There is a also an audible click as the relay changes 
state.  There are two screw terminals and an RC plug - couldn't be simpler. 
 Polarity is not an issue on the contacts.  I soldered a pair of wires 
across the trigger contacts of my electronic marker (so I can fire it 
manually as needed for testing) and screwed the other ends into the relay. 
 It fires when the RC control is about half-way to one end.

I'm about to test a Pololu low-side MOSFET switch a (see 
http://www.pololu.com/catalog/product/1210 ) and will report when I have 
news.  This will require some soldering but is less than half the price. 
 My marker trigger switch operates on the low side (connecting the 
electronics to the circuit ground) so this is ideal.  The circuit diagrams 
I could find for the Turnigy thing seem to indicate it's a high-side switch.


On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 3:19:44 PM UTC-4, Mike Mangus wrote:
>
>  Another for firing an electronic trigger marker is an electronic on/off 
> switch.  The Turnigy switch from Hobby King costs less than $7.  Course, 
> there is shipping too ... heh.
>  
> Mike
>
>   *From:* Frank Pittelli >
> *To:* rctank...@googlegroups.com  
> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 22, 2013 11:13 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project
> ... 
>
5) Fire control is the simplest of all systems.  If your marker has an 
> electronic trigger, you only need a stock servo ($10) and a micro-switch 
> ($1).
>
...
>

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RE: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[Pete Curran]

Schramm,

Any chance you could send me the 3d files for the suspension unit, so I can
try it out on my 3d printer

 

 

Pete

www.angelfire.com/mech/sherman

 

 

From: rctankcombat@googlegroups.com [mailto:rctankcombat@googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of S.Schramm
Sent: Saturday, 6 April 2013 3:29 AM
To: rctankcombat@googlegroups.com
Subject: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

 

 
 

 
 

A picture of the almost finished aluminium vvss housing.
 

 

 

 

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Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[OdysseySlipways]

oh, while i'm thinking of it, will you be adding the optional 40 mm fan or  
adding any other additional cooling device?
 
Chris

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Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[OdysseySlipways]

 
 
In a message dated 5/22/2013 6:58:58 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
frank.pitte...@gmail.com writes:

The  Talons have/will be tested with stock 350W scooter motors operated 
as  aggressively as humanly possible for no less than one hour of sheer  
battling hell.  The only test we know how to run.

With the  mixer that Steve mentioned, the retail cost for the Talon 
solution is  $135.  The Anvilus Controller designed and sold by Joe 
Sommer cost  roughly $140 including the cost of the custom board and the 
SSRs (when we  could get them surplus).  The cost of my solution, which 
included a  controller board, two relay boards and two scooter 
controllers would have  been around $120, but required more wiring 
(modularity does have a  disadvantage).

*If* the Talon proves reliable on the battlefield, it  will rise to the 
top of my recommendation list for motor  controllers.  We knew that it 
was just a matter of time before the  robot market created the products 
that we need at reasonable prices.   It just took them 10+ years to get 
here.



sums it all up for me for what i wanted to know - thanks, will await  your 
testing results.
 
the through of more wiring didn't even occur to me (was thinking more of  
plug n play)
 
Chris

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Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[Robert Currie]

I'm not against help in any way Chris ...as I said I have had help from Frank P 
, Joe S,John P and  many others who have shared there knowledge  
This hobby would not thrive as it has without fellow tankers lending a helping 
hand
What I am saying is that by giving out all the answers there is a little 
accomplishment lost in what you need and what will work in your tank
And some just wont the quick fix "easy button"
By researching the parts you need you learn more about how your tank works 
and be able to service it when it breaks down 
I you look hard enough you will find the holy grail
Not stirring the pot 
Rob Currie

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Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[Derek Engelhaupt]

That Talon SR looks like a modified IFI Victor ESC.  If I'm in the market
for new ESC's I'll have to check them out.

Derek


On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 5:58 PM, Frank Pittelli wrote:

> The Talons have/will be tested with stock 350W scooter motors operated as
> aggressively as humanly possible for no less than one hour of sheer
> battling hell.  The only test we know how to run.
>
> With the mixer that Steve mentioned, the retail cost for the Talon
> solution is $135.  The Anvilus Controller designed and sold by Joe Sommer
> cost roughly $140 including the cost of the custom board and the SSRs (when
> we could get them surplus).  The cost of my solution, which included a
> controller board, two relay boards and two scooter controllers would have
> been around $120, but required more wiring (modularity does have a
> disadvantage).
>
> *If* the Talon proves reliable on the battlefield, it will rise to the top
> of my recommendation list for motor controllers.  We knew that it was just
> a matter of time before the robot market created the products that we need
> at reasonable prices.  It just took them 10+ years to get here.
>
>
>
> On 5/22/2013 6:15 PM, odysseyslipw...@aol.com wrote:
> > what size are the motors will you be using to test the Talon SR with?
> >
>
>> so using 2 Talon SR's and a mixer is about the same value & price as the
>>
>> scooter throttle controller you were testing last year (if not better?)
>>
>
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Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[Frank Pittelli]

The Talons have/will be tested with stock 350W scooter motors operated 
as aggressively as humanly possible for no less than one hour of sheer 
battling hell.  The only test we know how to run.


With the mixer that Steve mentioned, the retail cost for the Talon 
solution is $135.  The Anvilus Controller designed and sold by Joe 
Sommer cost roughly $140 including the cost of the custom board and the 
SSRs (when we could get them surplus).  The cost of my solution, which 
included a controller board, two relay boards and two scooter 
controllers would have been around $120, but required more wiring 
(modularity does have a disadvantage).


*If* the Talon proves reliable on the battlefield, it will rise to the 
top of my recommendation list for motor controllers.  We knew that it 
was just a matter of time before the robot market created the products 
that we need at reasonable prices.  It just took them 10+ years to get here.



On 5/22/2013 6:15 PM, odysseyslipw...@aol.com wrote:
> what size are the motors will you be using to test the Talon SR with?
>

so using 2 Talon SR's and a mixer is about the same value & price as the
scooter throttle controller you were testing last year (if not better?)


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Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[OdysseySlipways]

so using 2 Talon SR's and a mixer is about the same value & price as  the 
scooter throttle controller you were testing last year (if not  better?)
 
Chris

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Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[OdysseySlipways]

what size are the motors will you be using to test the Talon SR with?
 
Chris

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Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[Mike Mangus]

 Might be showing my age (or that of my Uncle) ...  an escapement.  ;)

 But the point is made.  Servos.  Usually included with most radio systems.  :)

Mike






 From: Frank Pittelli 
To: rctankcombat@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 4:47 PM
Subject: Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project
 

However ... you are a veteran R/C combat dude (some say god).

Was that the first thing you bought for the first RC control system you ever 
built?

On 5/22/2013 5:30 PM, Mike Mangus wrote:
> Agreed for the most part, though I think a person cannot get any simpler
> than a plug and play electronic switch. The Strv has zero servos in it.

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Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[Frank Pittelli]

However ... you are a veteran R/C combat dude (some say god).

Was that the first thing you bought for the first RC control system you 
ever built?


On 5/22/2013 5:30 PM, Mike Mangus wrote:

Agreed for the most part, though I think a person cannot get any simpler
than a plug and play electronic switch. The Strv has zero servos in it.


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Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[Mike Mangus]

 Agreed for the most part, though I think a person cannot get any simpler than 
a plug and play electronic switch.  The Strv has zero servos in it.
 
Mike

From: Frank Pittelli 
To: rctankcombat@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project


Agreed.  But I deliberately left out the various "RC Switch" options 
because:

(a) there are a lot of different technologies used (drivers, FETs, 
relays, etc) that require some electronics background to understand the 
subtle differences

(b) most of the ones that provide functionality equivalent to a MAG 
Speed Control (servo with two switches wired as a mechanical H-bridge) 
are much more expensive then a servo and two switches

(c) servo and switches are really, really simple, making them really 
easy to install and trouble-shoot in the field.

I'm a big believer that everyone should start with the truly simple 
solution, before looking for the "better" solution.  That way, they'll 
have a working benchmark to judge alternatives against.  And, after they 
gain lots of experience (aka. failures) with the "better" solutions, 
they'll know just how sweet the simple solution really was.

Bear in mind, "simple" doesn't mean "inferior" either.  I have servos 
that are over 20 years old that have gone to hell and back (sunk too 
many times in warships, jolted hard in tanks with no suspensions, etc) 
and they are still working just fine.  20A micro-switches are made for 
literally millions of cycles and cost $1 or less from surplus stores. 
There's certainly enough room in any tank so that volume isn't an issue. 
  It takes only a few minutes to swap out switches and/or servos if 
something does go wrong.

That said, I have multiple prototype boards that implement MAG Speed 
Controls using relays and FETs to replace servo/switch solutions. 
Definitely more expensive, slightly better reliability and slightly more 
compact.  The production versions will become my "go to" RC part for 
elevate, rotate and trigger control, but it's taken many iterations over 
the years to zero in on an approach that can service all the different 
ways that those systems can be operated.

On 5/22/2013 3:19 PM, Mike Mangus wrote:
> Another for firing an electronic trigger marker is an electronic on/off
> switch. The Turnigy switch from Hobby King costs less than $7. Course,
> there is shipping too ... heh.

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Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[Frank Pittelli]

Easier to replace. Check.

Fit into tight spaces. Check.

Individual controllers also allow you to mount each controller next to 
each motor, making it easier to install, wire and trouble-shoot.  And, 
if you mount the controller on the motor itself or on the same mounting 
structure that the motor uses, then you can more easily take the entire 
assembly out of the tank for maintenance, repair, and cleaning (the 
often overlooked, but important design goals).


On 5/22/2013 4:27 PM, Derek Engelhaupt wrote:

The SINGLES are nice too because they are also much smaller packages
for the most part.  You can fit them in tighter spaces.


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Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[Frank Pittelli]

My bad.  I did a quick search for mixing circuits and found the 
venerable (but high priced) IMX-1.  Glad to see cheaper options exist. 
I've always relied on my own mixing circuits, which cost much, much more 
even if only the minimum wage applies ;-)


I wholeheartedly agree with Steve's statement that a more modular 
solution (that doesn't significantly increase the number of wires in the 
system) is a big win from a maintenance standpoint.  We've been 
searching over the years for a well-made, reasonably-priced, single 
channel controller with an RC interface and the Talon SR appears to be 
the winner in that category.  Made in the USA is nice too.


Now, we just need to abuse the Talon for many hours while battling to 
see how it holds up.  Few RC competitions draw large currents through 
the controllers for up to 60 minutes like our battles.  The Tiger will 
be using them during the next battle.


On 5/22/2013 4:19 PM, TyngTech wrote:

Frank wrote:

"We've also recently started
experimenting with the Talon SR Speed Controller ($60). That's a single
motor controller, so you'll need two of them and a mixing circuit ($40),
which puts the total price in the same ballpark as a dual motor
controller."

The servo mixers are down in the $15 range from Robotmarketplace.com.
I'll be testing one of these tonight with two Talons. Even if a mixer is
required, the $135 spent on two Talons and a mixer is the lowest per amp
cost of any 60+ amp motor controller setup I've seen to date. Also, a
very nice advantage to a two controller setup are lower replacement
costs if a part breaks. A few years ago I blew a FET on one channel of
my dual channel RD-80 controller. Had to replace the entire unit for
$300. With two Talons, the same repair would have been $60. My next tank
will be running Talons with a spare in the toolbox.

Steve

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Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[Derek Engelhaupt]

I meant singlesno duals.


On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 3:26 PM, Derek Engelhaupt  wrote:

> The duals are nice too because they are also much smaller packages for the
> most part.  You can fit them in tighter spaces.
>
>
> On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 3:19 PM, TyngTech  wrote:
>
>> Frank wrote:
>>
>> "We've also recently started
>> experimenting with the Talon SR Speed Controller ($60).  That's a single
>> motor controller, so you'll need two of them and a mixing circuit ($40),
>> which puts the total price in the same ballpark as a dual motor
>> controller."
>>
>> The servo mixers are down in the $15 range from Robotmarketplace.com.
>>  I'll be testing one of these tonight with two Talons.  Even if a mixer is
>> required, the $135 spent on two Talons and a mixer is the lowest per amp
>> cost of any 60+ amp motor controller setup I've seen to date.  Also, a very
>> nice advantage to a two controller setup are lower replacement costs if a
>> part breaks.  A few years ago I blew a FET on one channel of my dual
>> channel RD-80 controller.  Had to replace the entire unit for $300.  With
>> two Talons, the same repair would have been $60.  My next tank will be
>> running Talons with a spare in the toolbox.
>>
>> Steve
>>
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>
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Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[Derek Engelhaupt]

The duals are nice too because they are also much smaller packages for the
most part.  You can fit them in tighter spaces.


On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 3:19 PM, TyngTech  wrote:

> Frank wrote:
>
> "We've also recently started
> experimenting with the Talon SR Speed Controller ($60).  That's a single
> motor controller, so you'll need two of them and a mixing circuit ($40),
> which puts the total price in the same ballpark as a dual motor
> controller."
>
> The servo mixers are down in the $15 range from Robotmarketplace.com.
>  I'll be testing one of these tonight with two Talons.  Even if a mixer is
> required, the $135 spent on two Talons and a mixer is the lowest per amp
> cost of any 60+ amp motor controller setup I've seen to date.  Also, a very
> nice advantage to a two controller setup are lower replacement costs if a
> part breaks.  A few years ago I blew a FET on one channel of my dual
> channel RD-80 controller.  Had to replace the entire unit for $300.  With
> two Talons, the same repair would have been $60.  My next tank will be
> running Talons with a spare in the toolbox.
>
> Steve
>
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Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[TyngTech]

Frank wrote:

"We've also recently started 
experimenting with the Talon SR Speed Controller ($60).  That's a single 
motor controller, so you'll need two of them and a mixing circuit ($40), 
which puts the total price in the same ballpark as a dual motor 
controller."

The servo mixers are down in the $15 range from Robotmarketplace.com.  I'll 
be testing one of these tonight with two Talons.  Even if a mixer is 
required, the $135 spent on two Talons and a mixer is the lowest per amp 
cost of any 60+ amp motor controller setup I've seen to date.  Also, a very 
nice advantage to a two controller setup are lower replacement costs if a 
part breaks.  A few years ago I blew a FET on one channel of my dual 
channel RD-80 controller.  Had to replace the entire unit for $300.  With 
two Talons, the same repair would have been $60.  My next tank will be 
running Talons with a spare in the toolbox.

Steve

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Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[Frank Pittelli]

Agreed.  But I deliberately left out the various "RC Switch" options 
because:


(a) there are a lot of different technologies used (drivers, FETs, 
relays, etc) that require some electronics background to understand the 
subtle differences


(b) most of the ones that provide functionality equivalent to a MAG 
Speed Control (servo with two switches wired as a mechanical H-bridge) 
are much more expensive then a servo and two switches


(c) servo and switches are really, really simple, making them really 
easy to install and trouble-shoot in the field.


I'm a big believer that everyone should start with the truly simple 
solution, before looking for the "better" solution.  That way, they'll 
have a working benchmark to judge alternatives against.  And, after they 
gain lots of experience (aka. failures) with the "better" solutions, 
they'll know just how sweet the simple solution really was.


Bear in mind, "simple" doesn't mean "inferior" either.  I have servos 
that are over 20 years old that have gone to hell and back (sunk too 
many times in warships, jolted hard in tanks with no suspensions, etc) 
and they are still working just fine.  20A micro-switches are made for 
literally millions of cycles and cost $1 or less from surplus stores. 
There's certainly enough room in any tank so that volume isn't an issue. 
 It takes only a few minutes to swap out switches and/or servos if 
something does go wrong.


That said, I have multiple prototype boards that implement MAG Speed 
Controls using relays and FETs to replace servo/switch solutions. 
Definitely more expensive, slightly better reliability and slightly more 
compact.  The production versions will become my "go to" RC part for 
elevate, rotate and trigger control, but it's taken many iterations over 
the years to zero in on an approach that can service all the different 
ways that those systems can be operated.


On 5/22/2013 3:19 PM, Mike Mangus wrote:

Another for firing an electronic trigger marker is an electronic on/off
switch. The Turnigy switch from Hobby King costs less than $7. Course,
there is shipping too ... heh.


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Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[Mike Mangus]

 Another for firing an electronic trigger marker is an electronic on/off 
switch.  The Turnigy switch from Hobby King costs less than $7.  Course, there 
is shipping too ... heh.
 
Mike

From: Frank Pittelli 
To: rctankcombat@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 11:13 AM
Subject: Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project


The C12C is not currently being sold because of stocking issues (too 
many projects, too little time).  But, it is only one part of the 
control system needed for a tank.  Here's a basic guideline for the 
necessary systems and what can be used to implement them.  You can make 
it cheaper or more expensive and you can make it simpler or more 
complex, but this is a good place to start.

1) A stock 5 or 6 channel RC transmitter/receiver.  The C12C is just one 
such system.  Numerous 2.4Ghz RC packages are now available for less 
money (less than $50 from China and around $100 in the US).  Some have 
more features than others, but tanks generally don't need all the fancy 
features.  Servo-reverse is basically the only required feature.

2) You'll need either a dual motor controller or two separate motor 
controllers plus a mixing circuit.  Affordable options include the 
Sabretooth 2x25 ($125) and Sabretooth 2x60 ($190), depending on the size 
of your motors and their current draw.  We've also recently started 
experimenting with the Talon SR Speed Controller ($60).  That's a single 
motor controller, so you'll need two of them and a mixing circuit ($40), 
which puts the total price in the same ballpark as a dual motor 
controller.  If your radio system already has tank-style channel mixing, 
then you won't need the additional mixing circuit.  Even when scratch 
built with custom parts, getting the price below $100 is nearly 
impossible for a repeatable, reliable and easily wired solution.

3) A rotate system is nothing more than a motor ($10), a drive mechanism 
(gear, pulley, chain, or friction wheel) and either a servo ($10) and a 
simple pair of switches ($2) to provide on-off control or an inexpensive 
12V speed control ($25-40). Rotate motors don't require a lot of 
current, usually less than 5A in normal usage.

4) An elevate system can be implemented using either a stock servo or a 
simple motor with on-off controls.  If the gun assembly is properly 
balanced (add small weights until perfection is achieved), then 1/4 
scale servos ($30) should handle the job.  There are also new, high-tech 
servo gear-head products that provide more torque/precision ($100).  A 
low RPM motor ($10-15) can also provide the same capabilities, while 
being cheaper and more powerful.

5) Fire control is the simplest of all systems.  If your marker has an 
electronic trigger, you only need a stock servo ($10) and a micro-switch 
($1).  If your marker has a manual trigger, a stock servo ($10) can be 
used to pull the trigger directly or a door-lock actuator ($6) and a 
servo/switch ($11) can pull the trigger.  Despite the slight extra cost 
and components, the door-lock actuator is the best solution because it 
can pull the trigger faster than a servo and is easier to mount to the gun.

Here are just some of the many web sites that supply the various parts 
described above:

http://www.hobby-lobby.com/- Spectrum 2.4Ghz radios
http://www.hobbyking.com/- Turnigy 2.4Ghz radios (US warehouse)

http://www.dimensionengineering.com/- Sabertooth dual motor controllers
http://www.andymark.com/- Talon SR motor controller

http://www.servocity.com/- servos, gear heads, mounts, RC switch

http://www.allelectronics.com/- door lock actuator, switches, motors
http://www.mpja.com/- switches, motors

On 5/22/2013 8:26 AM, S.Schramm wrote:
> Regarding the control system for my M4 Sherman. I've been looking all
> over RCTC, in the tank descriptions and in the different treads, trying
> to figure out the best solution. Would love to have proportional
> steering. What are you guys installing in your tanks as of 2013? I found
> that the C12C Control System looks very promissing. So on to the next
> step, how do i aquire / buy a complete C12C setup with some instructions
> regarding wireing and component layout. Im not the big electrician, but
> i can read schematics and have basic knowledge of AC DC components.

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Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[Frank Pittelli]

The total cost for the "inexpensive", yet reliable solutions that Joe 
and I have implemented over the years are only marginally less than the 
various mass-produced products currently on the market.  Over 10 years 
ago home-grown solutions were significantly less than the market 
offered, so we pursued them.  Over the years, market prices have come 
down, reliability has gone up and our custom solutions are no longer 
needed.  Ride the market waves or be rolled over by them ... simple choice.


On 5/22/2013 2:37 PM, odysseyslipw...@aol.com wrote:

frank, what happened to that small system you were trying out that could
be used with a scooter controller that was to have given up proportional
forward and reverse (i forget if it was for 1 or 2 motors) making for a
nice modular system?


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Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[OdysseySlipways]

 
 
In a message dated 5/22/2013 1:51:28 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
rcrobertcur...@gmail.com writes:

I found  a little help here but Talk about the ..."EASY BUTTON" . 
where is the  thrill of the hunt? Satisfaction in finding that impossible 
part?  
Imagination and resourcefulness is a terrible thing to squander!  



nothing, but at the same time people tend to find useful things in  the 
oddest places, some places we might not even think about that we sometimes  
look at on a regular basis. so offered help is always welcomed in any  form 
either from/for mechanical problems to electrical. and then there are  some 
that don't always have time to go looking through tons of sites and links  that 
end up being of no use or just questionable of them being able to deliver - 
 that's where help like frank posted comes in handy as some of these guys 
have  bough from some of these sites before and give the site the thumbs up 
for others  to go check out.
 
been there, done that, buy from them here, stay away from those over  here
 
Chris

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Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[OdysseySlipways]

frank, what happened to that small system you were trying out that could be 
 used with a scooter controller that was to have given up proportional 
forward  and reverse (i forget if it was for 1 or 2 motors) making for a nice 
modular  system?
 
Chris

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Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[Robert Currie]

Wow ! 

I found a little help here but Talk about the ..."EASY BUTTON" . 
where is the thrill of the hunt? Satisfaction in finding that impossible part? 
Imagination and resourcefulness is a terrible thing to squander! 
 

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Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[Frank Pittelli]

The C12C is not currently being sold because of stocking issues (too 
many projects, too little time).  But, it is only one part of the 
control system needed for a tank.  Here's a basic guideline for the 
necessary systems and what can be used to implement them.  You can make 
it cheaper or more expensive and you can make it simpler or more 
complex, but this is a good place to start.


1) A stock 5 or 6 channel RC transmitter/receiver.  The C12C is just one 
such system.  Numerous 2.4Ghz RC packages are now available for less 
money (less than $50 from China and around $100 in the US).  Some have 
more features than others, but tanks generally don't need all the fancy 
features.  Servo-reverse is basically the only required feature.


2) You'll need either a dual motor controller or two separate motor 
controllers plus a mixing circuit.  Affordable options include the 
Sabretooth 2x25 ($125) and Sabretooth 2x60 ($190), depending on the size 
of your motors and their current draw.  We've also recently started 
experimenting with the Talon SR Speed Controller ($60).  That's a single 
motor controller, so you'll need two of them and a mixing circuit ($40), 
which puts the total price in the same ballpark as a dual motor 
controller.  If your radio system already has tank-style channel mixing, 
then you won't need the additional mixing circuit.  Even when scratch 
built with custom parts, getting the price below $100 is nearly 
impossible for a repeatable, reliable and easily wired solution.


3) A rotate system is nothing more than a motor ($10), a drive mechanism 
(gear, pulley, chain, or friction wheel) and either a servo ($10) and a 
simple pair of switches ($2) to provide on-off control or an inexpensive 
12V speed control ($25-40). Rotate motors don't require a lot of 
current, usually less than 5A in normal usage.


4) An elevate system can be implemented using either a stock servo or a 
simple motor with on-off controls.  If the gun assembly is properly 
balanced (add small weights until perfection is achieved), then 1/4 
scale servos ($30) should handle the job.  There are also new, high-tech 
servo gear-head products that provide more torque/precision ($100).  A 
low RPM motor ($10-15) can also provide the same capabilities, while 
being cheaper and more powerful.


5) Fire control is the simplest of all systems.  If your marker has an 
electronic trigger, you only need a stock servo ($10) and a micro-switch 
($1).  If your marker has a manual trigger, a stock servo ($10) can be 
used to pull the trigger directly or a door-lock actuator ($6) and a 
servo/switch ($11) can pull the trigger.  Despite the slight extra cost 
and components, the door-lock actuator is the best solution because it 
can pull the trigger faster than a servo and is easier to mount to the gun.


Here are just some of the many web sites that supply the various parts 
described above:


http://www.hobby-lobby.com - Spectrum 2.4Ghz radios
http://www.hobbyking.com - Turnigy 2.4Ghz radios (US warehouse)

http://www.dimensionengineering.com - Sabertooth dual motor controllers
http://www.andymark.com - Talon SR motor controller

http://www.servocity.com - servos, gear heads, mounts, RC switch

http://www.allelectronics.com - door lock actuator, switches, motors
http://www.mpja.com - switches, motors

On 5/22/2013 8:26 AM, S.Schramm wrote:

Regarding the control system for my M4 Sherman. I've been looking all
over RCTC, in the tank descriptions and in the different treads, trying
to figure out the best solution. Would love to have proportional
steering. What are you guys installing in your tanks as of 2013? I found
that the C12C Control System looks very promissing. So on to the next
step, how do i aquire / buy a complete C12C setup with some instructions
regarding wireing and component layout. Im not the big electrician, but
i can read schematics and have basic knowledge of AC DC components.


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Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[S.Schramm]

Hi Chris, It's being cnc milled where i work. I design and a make 
constructions in Solid Works for a living, and just outside my office there 
is 2 cnc milling machines. Sometimes they are very busy, and sometimes they 
produce tank parts for my project ;) 
 

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Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[OdysseySlipways]

that's just amazing looking? can we see any more pictures of it?
 
now are you doing the mill work yourself by hand, cnc, machine  shop???
 
Chris

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Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[OdysseySlipways]

WOW! (wipes drool from keyboard...)
 
Chris

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RE: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[Pete Curran]

That will be one awesome M4 when you are done

 

From: rctankcombat@googlegroups.com [mailto:rctankcombat@googlegroups.com]
On Behalf Of S.Schramm
Sent: Friday, 5 April 2013 9:59 PM
To: rctankcombat@googlegroups.com
Subject: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

 

 
 

 
 

A picture of the almost finished aluminium vvss housing.
 

 

 

 

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Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[pilotx1]

yep I saw that you did it as an assembly 

- Original Message -
From: "S.Schramm"  
To: rctankcombat@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2013 1:11:22 PM 
Subject: Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project 

Did u get my message, I think I replyed to author, instead of normal reply... 
i'm trying to get used to the google groups system ;) 
Den onsdag den 3. april 2013 18.11.08 UTC+2 skrev Jason Kehoe: 



did you model that as an assembly? 


From: "S.Schramm" < ssr7...@gmail.com > 
To: rctank...@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2013 10:44:46 AM 
Subject: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project 


a picture of the drawing process so far. 
My plan is to finish the model, and release it for others to use and modify. 



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Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[S.Schramm]

Did u get my message, I think I replyed to author, instead of normal 
reply... i'm trying to get used to the google groups system ;)
Den onsdag den 3. april 2013 18.11.08 UTC+2 skrev Jason Kehoe:
>
> did you model that as an assembly?
>
> --
> *From: *"S.Schramm" >
> *To: *rctank...@googlegroups.com 
> *Sent: *Wednesday, April 3, 2013 10:44:46 AM
> *Subject: *[TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project
>
> a picture of the drawing process so far.
> My plan is to finish the model, and release it for others to use and 
> modify.
> 
>
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Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[OdysseySlipways]

man i wish i knew how to do stuff like that..
 
Chris

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Re: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project

[pilotx1]

did you model that as an assembly? 

- Original Message -
From: "S.Schramm"  
To: rctankcombat@googlegroups.com 
Sent: Wednesday, April 3, 2013 10:44:46 AM 
Subject: [TANKS] Re: M4A3 75mm Build Project 


a picture of the drawing process so far. 
My plan is to finish the model, and release it for others to use and modify. 



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