Re: [RDA-L] Subjective Judgements in RDA 300s????

[J. McRee Elrod]

Deborah Tomares posted:

>319 pages : |b illustrations (some coloured, all beautiful), maps ; |c 25
>cm.

One of the disadvantages of RDA's spelled out words, is that spellings
vary.  My understanding is that each library is to follow its own
practice, and the rest of us should leave it alone.

The "all beautiful" is not standard, and IMNSHO should be removed as a
value judgement, while "coloured" should not have been changed.


   __   __   J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
  {__  |   / Special Libraries Cataloguing   HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
  ___} |__ \__

Re: [RDA-L] Subjective Judgements in RDA 300s????

[hecain]

Quoting Jonathan Rochkind :

Which is why in an ideal world, if we care about whether the  
illustrations are colored or not (and I suspect the time is LONG  
gone when our patrons or we actually DO), there would be a data  
element in the record which marked, in a machine interpretable way,  
whether there are illustrations (checkmark HERE), and whether they  
are colored/coloured (checkmark THERE).  Which could then be  
translated to the appropriate spelling or even language for the  
given audience.


I don't agree -- maybe so in an academic environment, but for other  
kinds of libraries (school and public, and maybe specials too) the  
presence of illustrations can be a significant element in making a  
choice of the possibilities.  The LCRI for AACR2 which enjoins just  
"illus." for all kinds of illustrative material doesn't help!


In reality, though, as important is to know how many illustrations  
there are (even approximately).


Likewise, for the content expressed as "Includes bibliographic  
references" and coded in the 008 fixed field, this is far less than  
the user wants to know.  The extent of pages (in a printed or  
fixed-format document) may help or may be misleading.  What would be  
useful to know would be the number of resources referenced.


I don't think RDA has addressed these.

Hal Cain
Melbourne, Victoria
hec...@dml.vic.edu.au


This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.

Re: [RDA-L] Subjective Judgements in RDA 300s????

[Jonathan Rochkind]

Which is why in an ideal world, if we care about whether the illustrations are 
colored or not (and I suspect the time is LONG gone when our patrons or we 
actually DO), there would be a data element in the record which marked, in a 
machine interpretable way, whether there are illustrations (checkmark HERE), 
and whether they are colored/coloured (checkmark THERE).  Which could then be 
translated to the appropriate spelling or even language for the given audience. 

But this is really just an example of the principle of the thing, not a very 
good example in particular. Because like I said, I suspect that whether 
illustrations are present in color or not is not of much concern to 99% of 
patrons 99% of the time.  In fact, if you think about it too hard it's a bit 
frustrating that expensive cataloger time is being spent marking down whether 
illustrations are colored or not (let alone correcting or changing someone 
elses spelling of colored!), when our actual real world records generally can't 
manage to specify things the user DOES care about a lot -- like if there is 
full text version of the item on the web and what it's URL is. (Anyone that has 
tried to figure this out from our actual real world shared records knows what 
I'm talking about; it's pretty much a roll of the dice whether an 856 
represents full text or something else, it can't be determined reliably from 
indicators or subfields.)

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Bothmann, Robert L 
[robert.bothm...@mnsu.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2011 7:47 PM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Subjective Judgements in RDA 300s

First, if an English speaker uses English as the language of cataloging rather 
than the American dialect as the language of cataloging, then Americans should 
leave that be and not change the spelling to the American dialect--that is not 
a correction and I don't agree with your choice to "correct" spelling that is 
not incorrect.

I laughed out loud when I saw this--it's a great example of something, I'm just 
not sure what. I suppose that if you consider the principle of 
representation--that the description should represent the resource the way the 
resource represents itself--then this could be construed as an acceptable 
representation; particularly if the resource explicitly says "beautiful all 
colour illustrations".


***
Robert Bothmann
Electronic Access/Catalog Librarian
Associate Professor, Library Services


-Original Message-
From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca] On Behalf Of Deborah Tomares
Sent: Tuesday, 01 March, 2011 3:05 PM
To: RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca
Subject: [RDA-L] Subjective Judgements in RDA 300s

I just cataloged the book corresponding to OCLC #702491897. When I looked
at the record, the 300 read:

319 pages : |b illustrations (some coloured, all beautiful), maps ; |c 25
cm.

I've corrected the spelling of "coloured" to American usage--is there an
RDA provision I'm missing about this, or was it a typo?

But the part I can't understand is the inclusion of "all beautiful". Are we
allowed, under RDA provisions, to include value judgements about the
illustrations? Are value judgements allowed elsewhere in cataloging under
RDA? Under AACR2, we are supposed to be as objective as possible when
creating records, and not allow personal biases in subjects, etc. But this
is ridiculous. Aren't we supposed to just be transcribing in the 300 field?
Is this a rogue cataloger, or is there a provision I should be cringing
about now?

Thanks in advance for all information (and potential public drubbing of
CGU?).

Deborah Tomaras, NACO Coordinator
Librarian II
Western European Languages Team
New York Public Library
Library Services Center
31-11 Thomson Ave.
Long Island City, N.Y. 11101
(917) 229-9561
dtoma...@nypl.org

Disclaimer: Alas, my ideas are merely my own, and not indicative of New
York Public Library policy.

Re: [RDA-L] Subjective Judgements in RDA 300s????

[Bothmann, Robert L]

First, if an English speaker uses English as the language of cataloging rather 
than the American dialect as the language of cataloging, then Americans should 
leave that be and not change the spelling to the American dialect--that is not 
a correction and I don't agree with your choice to "correct" spelling that is 
not incorrect. 

I laughed out loud when I saw this--it's a great example of something, I'm just 
not sure what. I suppose that if you consider the principle of 
representation--that the description should represent the resource the way the 
resource represents itself--then this could be construed as an acceptable 
representation; particularly if the resource explicitly says "beautiful all 
colour illustrations".


***
Robert Bothmann
Electronic Access/Catalog Librarian
Associate Professor, Library Services


-Original Message-
From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca] On Behalf Of Deborah Tomares
Sent: Tuesday, 01 March, 2011 3:05 PM
To: RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca
Subject: [RDA-L] Subjective Judgements in RDA 300s

I just cataloged the book corresponding to OCLC #702491897. When I looked
at the record, the 300 read:

319 pages : |b illustrations (some coloured, all beautiful), maps ; |c 25
cm.

I've corrected the spelling of "coloured" to American usage--is there an
RDA provision I'm missing about this, or was it a typo?

But the part I can't understand is the inclusion of "all beautiful". Are we
allowed, under RDA provisions, to include value judgements about the
illustrations? Are value judgements allowed elsewhere in cataloging under
RDA? Under AACR2, we are supposed to be as objective as possible when
creating records, and not allow personal biases in subjects, etc. But this
is ridiculous. Aren't we supposed to just be transcribing in the 300 field?
Is this a rogue cataloger, or is there a provision I should be cringing
about now?

Thanks in advance for all information (and potential public drubbing of
CGU?).

Deborah Tomaras, NACO Coordinator
Librarian II
Western European Languages Team
New York Public Library
Library Services Center
31-11 Thomson Ave.
Long Island City, N.Y. 11101
(917) 229-9561
dtoma...@nypl.org

Disclaimer: Alas, my ideas are merely my own, and not indicative of New
York Public Library policy.

Re: [RDA-L] Subjective Judgements in RDA 300s????

[Christopher Cronin]

My personal apologies to the cataloging community for what was put in the 300 
field.  This has nothing to do with RDA, nor does it reflect CGU's policy or 
philosophy.  While NYPL would like to politicize it, this is nothing more than 
a demonstration of extremely poor judgment of a cataloger who, frankly, should 
have known better.  

 
___

Christopher Cronin
Director of Metadata & Cataloging Services
University of Chicago Library
1100 E. 57th Street
Chicago, IL 60637
 
Phone: 773-702-8739
Fax: 773-702-3016
Skype: christopher-cronin
E-mail: cron...@uchicago.edu
___

 


-Original Message-
From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Deborah Tomares
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2011 3:05 PM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: [RDA-L] Subjective Judgements in RDA 300s

I just cataloged the book corresponding to OCLC #702491897. When I looked
at the record, the 300 read:

319 pages : |b illustrations (some coloured, all beautiful), maps ; |c 25
cm.

I've corrected the spelling of "coloured" to American usage--is there an
RDA provision I'm missing about this, or was it a typo?

But the part I can't understand is the inclusion of "all beautiful". Are we
allowed, under RDA provisions, to include value judgements about the
illustrations? Are value judgements allowed elsewhere in cataloging under
RDA? Under AACR2, we are supposed to be as objective as possible when
creating records, and not allow personal biases in subjects, etc. But this
is ridiculous. Aren't we supposed to just be transcribing in the 300 field?
Is this a rogue cataloger, or is there a provision I should be cringing
about now?

Thanks in advance for all information (and potential public drubbing of
CGU?).

Deborah Tomaras, NACO Coordinator
Librarian II
Western European Languages Team
New York Public Library
Library Services Center
31-11 Thomson Ave.
Long Island City, N.Y. 11101
(917) 229-9561
dtoma...@nypl.org

Disclaimer: Alas, my ideas are merely my own, and not indicative of New
York Public Library policy.

[RDA-L] Subjective Judgements in RDA 300s????

[Deborah Tomares]

I just cataloged the book corresponding to OCLC #702491897. When I looked
at the record, the 300 read:

319 pages : |b illustrations (some coloured, all beautiful), maps ; |c 25
cm.

I've corrected the spelling of "coloured" to American usage--is there an
RDA provision I'm missing about this, or was it a typo?

But the part I can't understand is the inclusion of "all beautiful". Are we
allowed, under RDA provisions, to include value judgements about the
illustrations? Are value judgements allowed elsewhere in cataloging under
RDA? Under AACR2, we are supposed to be as objective as possible when
creating records, and not allow personal biases in subjects, etc. But this
is ridiculous. Aren't we supposed to just be transcribing in the 300 field?
Is this a rogue cataloger, or is there a provision I should be cringing
about now?

Thanks in advance for all information (and potential public drubbing of
CGU?).

Deborah Tomaras, NACO Coordinator
Librarian II
Western European Languages Team
New York Public Library
Library Services Center
31-11 Thomson Ave.
Long Island City, N.Y. 11101
(917) 229-9561
dtoma...@nypl.org

Disclaimer: Alas, my ideas are merely my own, and not indicative of New
York Public Library policy.

Re: [RDA-L] Abbreviations in RDA -- two preferred names for places

[Brunella Longo]

> Pat Sayre McCoy:
> [...} Why not catalogers?


Why not catalogers? I think the answer is in the news Today, see 
http://tinyurl.com/68eslta (Gov accountability Office report on duplications, 
overlap, fragmentation of services) and even if this report is related to US 
Gov it seems to me the problem is being tackled almost in the same way by other 
governments in OCSE countries. 

In the open web we are supposed to pursue interoperability and integration of 
data, not duplication. Therefore the institutions / organisations that can 
better provide a certain type of data are obviously the ones that have been 
dealing with that type of data for ages not only because of the legacy in terms 
of archives and repositories but because of the skills and expertise in 
managing them and see the pro and cons of new uses, reuses, contextual aspects 
etc etc. This is the advantage of having an expertise.   

Having said that, when there is a good reason why and a sensible cost (a value 
proposition, a business justification, a market demand for it, a sustainable 
way to manage it) any type of cataloguing project makes sense from my point of 
view. I cannot say anything about the best way to produce pieces of furniture 
but I can say a lot about the best way to catalogue them in order to make them 
findable!  In the past, I have successfully designed and implemented new data 
collection using traditional librarians skills in a complete new way with the 
customer and other stakeholders not even being aware of that (because it was 
very costly for me alone to make them aware of that. That is where the 
professional associations and the great institutions employing librarians and 
cataloguers should be engaged). 

If I can add a bit of humour noir, beware that "why not" was (or is still I 
have not read italian newspapers for the last three years but occasionally) the 
name of an italian  mafia /'ndrangheta investigation against duplication and 
waste of public money in which lot of people from the north of Italy 
(Lombardia, Veneto) mainly involved with catholic "Compagnia delle opere" and 
"Comunione and liberazione" movements organised faked exchanges of money with 
people from the south of Italy (Calabria, Campania) - and that was to some 
extent a truly international operation that touched also nord-americans (mostly 
canadians) as far as I can remember. "Why not" in a  campaigning / advocacy 
initiative "pro cataloguers in linked data projects" could unfortunately recall 
those news through search engines and newspapers archives.

Brunella Longo
http://www.brunellalongo.info  

Re: [RDA-L] Abbreviations in RDA -- two preferred names for places

[Pat Sayre McCoy]

I only include personal information in authority records that is already 
available on the web, usually from a corporate or personal webpage. I do not 
include home addresses or phone numbers. If "librarians, cataloguers, 
copy-cataloging services..." don't collocate this information, who will? If we 
want Web 3.0 and linked data, where is it going to come from? It's not just 
"out there," someone has to organize it and put it in the record that everyone 
will link to. Why not catalogers?
Pat


Patricia Sayre-McCoy
Head of Law Cataloging and Serials
D'Angelo Law Library
1121 E. 60th Street
Chicago, IL 60637
p-mc...@uchicago.edu
773-702-9620 (office)
773-702-2885 (fax)


-Original Message-
From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Brunella Longo
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2011 12:31 PM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Abbreviations in RDA -- two preferred names for places

1) I cannot see any business justification for librarians, cataloguers, 
copy-cataloguing services etc to collect and treat any personal information 
like date of birth, death, country of residence etc for living people without 
the active and responsible engagement of end users, id est the same authors. 

[material deleted for brevity]

Catalogues could and should be designed in order to facilitate links with other 
web sites, databases and social networks  through linked data / semantic web 
standards and identifiers but even is the level of technical  interoperability 
was good enough to proceed in this direction, we must be aware that human, 
cultural, legal interoperability is truly further down the line as far as 
personal data of living people are concerned. At least in Europe. 

For  authority control purposes see the recent British Library press release at 
.
 

[material deleted]...BUT this does not mean that cataloguers are authorised to 
pick up personal data out of contexts and without explicit licensing agreements 
just because there are new RDA elements and attributes to be filled...


2)  in particular, data related to residences of living authors in catalogues 
should be avoided. 

The idea to put these data in catalogues without explicit and formal users' 
authorisation, to be provided, continuously updated and managed according to a 
specific policy within any single organisation sharing the data, is basically 
illegal in Europe but above all is completely unrealistic from an 
organisational point of view. 
 
As usual, these are provisional thoughts and opinions. Any further  
consideration welcomed. 

Brunella Longo