Re: [RDA-L] Relationship designators for related expressions, works etc for a music score

[Paradis Daniel]

I agree with Andra that “Musical setting of (work)” is not appropriate because 
the Neruda poems have been used as an inspiration for the musical work but not 
actually set to music. A better designator would be “based on (work)” (in which 
case the access point(s) would not include the subfield $l) or “based on 
(expression)”, if you think that the composer drew his inspiration from the 
English translation of the poems and not from the original version. This LC 
record provides an example: http://lccn.loc.gov/2013560310. This record is also 
an illustration of LC policy regarding instrumental works that are based on, 
inspired by, etc., one or two literary works (see LC-PCC PS for 25.0 
http://access.rdatoolkit.org/document.php?id=lcpschp25# 
 ).

 

Daniel Paradis

 

Bibliothécaire

Direction du traitement documentaire des collections patrimoniales

Bibliothèque et Archives nationales du Québec

 

2275, rue Holt

Montréal (Québec) H2G 3H1

Téléphone : 514 873-1101, poste 3721

Télécopieur : 514 873-7296

daniel.para...@banq.qc.ca

http://www.banq.qc.ca

 

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De : Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca] De la part de Andra Patterson
Envoyé : 5 juin 2013 21:13
À : RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca
Objet : Re: [RDA-L] Relationship designators for related expressions, works etc 
for a music score

 

Hi Siân,

 

Here are  my thoughts, for what they're worth!

 

Yes, I think it is useful to record the relationship between Neruda's work and 
Daughtrey's concerto. This is recorded as a relationship to a related work 
(25.1) and it could be recorded as an unstructured description in the 500 
rather than in 500 and 700 (see the 2nd example in the final box of examples at 
25.1.1.3). 

 

As you point out, the text of the poems does not form part of the work, so the 
relationship designator "musical setting of (work)" is not appropriate. Using 
an unstructured description to record the relationship eliminates the need for 
a relationship designator. You could record a whole-part relationship as a 700 
to record the fact that the poems are contained in the resource, using a 
relationship designator from J.3.4:

 

100 1 ‡a Daughtrey, Nathan ‡e composer.

240 10  ‡a Concertos, ‡m vibraphone, percussion ensemble

245 10  ‡a Concerto for vibraphone & percussion ensemble / ‡c Nathan Daughtrey.

500‡a "The two-movement work draws inspiration from two opposing poems 
by Pablo Neruda that depict night and day"--Program notes.

700 12 ‡i Contains (expression): ‡a Neruda, Pablo, ‡d 1904-1973. ‡t Poems. ‡k 
Selections. ‡l English.

 

I apologise in advance if my thoughts are incorrect - I'm happy to be corrected!

 

Best wishes,

Andra

 

Andra Patterson | Team Leader, Cataloguing Team 2
National Library of New Zealand

PO Box 1467, Wellington 6140
Email: andra.patter...@dia.govt.nz | Direct Dial: +64 4 460 2858 | Internal 
extension: 3258 |  http://natlib.govt.nz/

 

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Sian Woolcock
Sent: Thursday, 6 June 2013 12:02 p.m.
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: [RDA-L] Relationship designators for related expressions, works etc 
for a music score

 

Hi everyone,

 

Hoping I could get some advice on a music score I am currently cataloguing in 
RDA.

 

My score is a concerto for Vibraphone and Percussion ensemble. The program 
notes written in the score include two poems by Pablo Neruda (written in 
English) and the statement “The two-movement work draws inspiration from two 
opposing poems by Pablo Neruda that depict night and day”. The poems do not 
form any part of the actual music of the score (so would not be performed as 
they are neither narrated or sung). Whilst they will not be part of any 
performance of the score I want to make reference to Neruda as the poems were 
considered significant enough inspiration to the composer that their text was 
printed in the program notes. My questions are

 

1.  Am I correct in my assumption that Neruda’s work/inspiration should be 
recorded in the record as a related expression?

2.  Is a name title 700 entry (see below) the best way to do this?

3.  Is the relationship designator I have used from Appendix J (J 2.2) of 
the toolkit the appropriate one given that the text does not form part of the 
actual work? (i.e. it’s not a libretto) -  ‡i musical set

Re: [RDA-L] Language of expression

[Joan Wang]

Many thanks. Trina.

Yes, what I am talking about are authorized access points for expressions.
Language is a part of them.

I just realized that more than one expression contained in a manifestation
should go primary relationships between Group 1 entities. It may not be
covered by RDA 6.11.

A motion picture contains subtitles should not be considered multiple
expressions? I kind of agree with you. I looked at Library of Congress
Policy Appendix 1 (for motion pictures, television programs, radio
programs). It does say following RDA 6.11.1.4 to construct authorized
access points for a subtitled motion picture released under the same or a
different title. So if a motion picture has subtitles in more than one
language, it is a single expression involving multiple languages.

For more than one language in a single expression, encoding them in one $l
may not be correct. I suspect that too. If following RDA 6.11.1.4, we would
encode each of them in separate fields. So we would see, for example,
multiple 730 fields (each has $l). Hope somebody else would like to confirm
it.

Thanks for your time.

Joan Wang


On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 11:03 PM, Trina Pundurs <
tpund...@library.berkeley.edu> wrote:

> Hi Joan,
>
> I'll wade in here, with the caveat that I'm several years removed from my
> last regular experience cataloging AV materials.
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 1:52 PM, Joan Wang wrote:
>
>> Hi, all
>>
>> I have a question about language of expression. RDA actually has two
>> separate sections for one language and more than one language in an
>> expression (not a manifestation). For one language, if my understanding is
>> correct, we record it only if it is a translation or a different language
>> edition.
>>
>> I assume you are referring here to recording language of expression *as
> part of the authorized access point.*  Of course we are always supposed to
> record language of expression, in MARC 008/35-37 and, if necessary, 041.
>
> For more than one language, RDA 6.11.1.4 says “If a single expression of a
>> work involves more than one language, record each of the languages”.
>> According to listed examples, if a motion picture has some dialogs in
>> English, some dialogue in German, and some dialogue in Russian, it is a
>> single expression. But if a motion picture has two dubbed versions (or
>> sub-titles) such as French and Spanish, in addition to its original English
>> language, is it a manifestation containing multiple expressions? If a
>> compilation contains the original text and one or more translation, it
>> definitely has multiple expressions.
>>
>> I think in the case of a motion picture, it is important to distinguish
> between the language of any audio track (dubbed or otherwise) and the
> language of subtitles.  The audio track is intrinsic to the resource,
> whereas subtitles are supplementary (i.e., the average user could make use
> of the resource as intended even without the subtitles).  If you agree with
> this, then you are asking two separate questions:
> 1. how to record language when there are multiple dubbed (or one undubbed,
> plus at least one dubbed) versions in the same resource; and
> 2. how to record languages when subtitles are available in multiple
> languages in the same resource.
>
> To answer the second question:  The language of subtitles for a motion
> picture is covered by 7.12, Language of the Content.  This typically would
> be recorded in MARC 546.  (Note that this element is not core.)
>
> To answer the first question:  Each of the dubbed versions is a separate
> expression, so this resource would be a work that contains multiple
> expressions.  In that case you would proceed as you indicated below:
> Multiple authorized access points (in the case of a motion picture, it
> would more likely be 730s than 700s), with one language added in $l for
> each version (except, of course, for the original language if it is one of
> the versions included in the resource).  I'm afraid I can't point to an
> instruction number; perhaps someone else could help out here.
>
>> For more than one language in multiple expressions, I was taught to
>> record them in separate fields such as multiple 700 fields but omit $h for
>> the original language. I believe that Library of Congress Policy says the
>> same thing. Apparently multiple expressions are not under the big umbrella
>> of RDA 6.11.1.4. Is it under 6.11.1.3?
>> Hope somebody would like to help :-)
>>
>
> Just wanted to make one comment about the following:  AFAIK this has never
> been correct in RDA.  Can you find the training materials that indicated
> this should be done?
>
>> For more than one language in a single expression, I was taught in a
>> training session to record multiple languages in one $l, such as $l
>> English, German, Russian. But I do not think that it could be supported by
>> RDA 6.11.1.4. I am not able to see words like “in an order”. Library of
>> Congress Policy? Or is it a MARC encoding thing?
>>
> Thanks

[RDA-L] Qualifiers for "Laws, etc."

[Christopher Thomas]

Under the old LC Rule Interpretation 25.15A1, we always used a qualifier with 
the uniform title "Laws, etc.".  I am having a hard time finding similar 
provisions in the LC/PCC PS or RDA, although LC and PCC seem to be using 
qualifiers with "Laws, etc." under RDA.

For example, "Laws, etc. (Hyderabad state laws)" is in one of the PCC/SCT RDA 
record examples for law and legal materials at:
http://www.loc.gov/catworkshop/RDA%20training%20materials/SCT%20RDA%20Records%20TG/

These are links to 3 more RDA records in LC's catalog with "Laws, etc." 
qualified:
http://lccn.loc.gov/2013352356
http://lccn.loc.gov/2010217987
http://lccn.loc.gov/2010503873

The old guidelines were very detailed and included special provisions for 
session laws and compiled statutes of U.S. states.  RDA 6.19.2.5.1 says to use 
"Laws, etc." for compilations of laws but does not mention qualifiers, and 
neither does the corresponding LC/PCC PS.  Is this now covered somewhere else 
in RDA?


Christopher Thomas, M.L.S. | Electronic Resources and Metadata Librarian
(949) 824-7681 | fax (949) 824-6700 | 
ctho...@law.uci.edu
Law Library * University of California * Irvine
www.law.uci.edu/library
[Logo_size03]


<>

Re: [RDA-L] Qualifiers for "Laws, etc."

[John Hostage]

LC-PCC PS for 6.29.1.32.
RDA generally separates instructions for recording elements like preferred 
title or preferred name from those for creating an authorized access point.

--
John Hostage
Authorities and Database Integrity Librarian //
Harvard Library--Information and Technical Services //
Langdell Hall 194 //
Cambridge, MA 02138
host...@law.harvard.edu
+(1)(617) 495-3974 (voice)
+(1)(617) 496-4409 (fax)

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Christopher Thomas
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 14:40
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: [RDA-L] Qualifiers for "Laws, etc."

Under the old LC Rule Interpretation 25.15A1, we always used a qualifier with 
the uniform title "Laws, etc.".  I am having a hard time finding similar 
provisions in the LC/PCC PS or RDA, although LC and PCC seem to be using 
qualifiers with "Laws, etc." under RDA.

For example, "Laws, etc. (Hyderabad state laws)" is in one of the PCC/SCT RDA 
record examples for law and legal materials at:
http://www.loc.gov/catworkshop/RDA%20training%20materials/SCT%20RDA%20Records%20TG/

These are links to 3 more RDA records in LC's catalog with "Laws, etc." 
qualified:
http://lccn.loc.gov/2013352356
http://lccn.loc.gov/2010217987
http://lccn.loc.gov/2010503873

The old guidelines were very detailed and included special provisions for 
session laws and compiled statutes of U.S. states.  RDA 6.19.2.5.1 says to use 
"Laws, etc." for compilations of laws but does not mention qualifiers, and 
neither does the corresponding LC/PCC PS.  Is this now covered somewhere else 
in RDA?


Christopher Thomas, M.L.S. | Electronic Resources and Metadata Librarian
(949) 824-7681 | fax (949) 824-6700 | 
ctho...@law.uci.edu
Law Library * University of California * Irvine
www.law.uci.edu/library
[Logo_size03]


<>

Re: [RDA-L] Language of expression

[Adam Schiff]

For a film in which there are multiple languages spoken in a single 
expression, you would not use an expression access point at all.  You would 
just use the access point for the work, but you would record the languages 
in 008 and 041 and 546 only.  The example in RDA is Defiance:


041 0_  eng $a ger $a rus

130 0   Defiance (Motion picture : 2008)

245 10 Defiance / $c Paramount Vantage presents a Grosvenor Park/Bedford 
Falls production ; an Edward Zwick film ; executive producer, Marshall 
Herskovitz ; produced by Edward Zwick, Pieter Jan Brugge ; director of 
photography, Eduardo Serra ; screenplay by Clayton Frohman & Edward Zwick ; 
directed by Edward Zwick.


546   In English, German, and Russian.

Now if the DVD you had of this film also had dubbed versions or subtitled 
versions, you could make additional access points for those expressions 
included on your manifestation:


041 1_  eng $a ger $a rus $a fre $a spa $j eng $j fre $j spa $h eng $h ger 
$h rus


546   In English, German, and Russian; dubbed French or dubbed Spanish 
dialogue with optional English, French, or Spanish subtitles.


730 02 $I Contains (expression): $a Defiance (Motion picture : 2008). $l 
French.


730 02 $I Contains (expression): $a Defiance (Motion picture : 2008). $l 
Spanish.


There isn't a good way or best practice yet to formulate and distinguish a 
dubbed expression from a subtitled expression, although I suppose you could 
do something like this if you felt the next to differentiate to that level:


730 02 $I Contains (expression): $a Defiance (Motion picture : 2008). $l 
French. $s (Dubbed)


730 02 $I Contains (expression): $a Defiance (Motion picture : 2008). $l 
Spanish. $s (Dubbed)


730 02 $I Contains (expression): $a Defiance (Motion picture : 2008). $l 
English. $s (Subtitled)


730 02 $I Contains (expression): $a Defiance (Motion picture : 2008). $l 
French. $s (Subtitled)


730 02 $I Contains (expression): $a Defiance (Motion picture : 2008). $l 
Spanish. $s (Subtitled)



--Adam Schiff
University of Washington Libraries

From: Joan Wang
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 9:50 AM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Language of expression

Many thanks. Trina.

Yes, what I am talking about are authorized access points for expressions. 
Language is a part of them.


I just realized that more than one expression contained in a manifestation 
should go primary relationships between Group 1 entities. It may not be 
covered by RDA 6.11.


A motion picture contains subtitles should not be considered multiple 
expressions? I kind of agree with you. I looked at Library of Congress 
Policy Appendix 1 (for motion pictures, television programs, radio 
programs). It does say following RDA 6.11.1.4 to construct authorized access 
points for a subtitled motion picture released under the same or a different 
title. So if a motion picture has subtitles in more than one language, it is 
a single expression involving multiple languages.


For more than one language in a single expression, encoding them in one $l 
may not be correct. I suspect that too. If following RDA 6.11.1.4, we would 
encode each of them in separate fields. So we would see, for example, 
multiple 730 fields (each has $l). Hope somebody else would like to confirm 
it.


Thanks for your time.


Joan Wang



On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 11:03 PM, Trina Pundurs 
 wrote:


Hi Joan,

I'll wade in here, with the caveat that I'm several years removed from my 
last regular experience cataloging AV materials.



On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 1:52 PM, Joan Wang  
wrote:



Hi, all

I have a question about language of expression. RDA actually has two 
separate sections for one language and more than one language in an 
expression (not a manifestation). For one language, if my understanding is 
correct, we record it only if it is a translation or a different language 
edition.





I assume you are referring here to recording language of expression *as part 
of the authorized access point.*  Of course we are always supposed to record 
language of expression, in MARC 008/35-37 and, if necessary, 041.




For more than one language, RDA 6.11.1.4 says “If a single expression of a 
work involves more than one language, record each of the languages”. 
According to listed examples, if a motion picture has some dialogs in 
English, some dialogue in German, and some dialogue in Russian, it is a 
single expression. But if a motion picture has two dubbed versions (or 
sub-titles) such as French and Spanish, in addition to its original English 
language, is it a manifestation containing multiple expressions? If a 
compilation contains the original text and one or more translation, it 
definitely has multiple expressions.





I think in the case of a motion picture, it is important to distinguish 
between the language of any audio track (dubbed or otherwise) and the 
language of subtitles.  The audio track is intrinsic to the resource, 
whereas subtitles are supplementary 

Re: [RDA-L] Qualifiers for "Laws, etc."

[Christopher Thomas]

Thanks, John.

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of John Hostage
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 11:48 AM
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Qualifiers for "Laws, etc."

LC-PCC PS for 6.29.1.32.
RDA generally separates instructions for recording elements like preferred 
title or preferred name from those for creating an authorized access point.

--
John Hostage
Authorities and Database Integrity Librarian //
Harvard Library--Information and Technical Services //
Langdell Hall 194 //
Cambridge, MA 02138
host...@law.harvard.edu
+(1)(617) 495-3974 (voice)
+(1)(617) 496-4409 (fax)

From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access 
[mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Christopher Thomas
Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 14:40
To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
Subject: [RDA-L] Qualifiers for "Laws, etc."

Under the old LC Rule Interpretation 25.15A1, we always used a qualifier with 
the uniform title "Laws, etc.".  I am having a hard time finding similar 
provisions in the LC/PCC PS or RDA, although LC and PCC seem to be using 
qualifiers with "Laws, etc." under RDA.

For example, "Laws, etc. (Hyderabad state laws)" is in one of the PCC/SCT RDA 
record examples for law and legal materials at:
http://www.loc.gov/catworkshop/RDA%20training%20materials/SCT%20RDA%20Records%20TG/

These are links to 3 more RDA records in LC's catalog with "Laws, etc." 
qualified:
http://lccn.loc.gov/2013352356
http://lccn.loc.gov/2010217987
http://lccn.loc.gov/2010503873

The old guidelines were very detailed and included special provisions for 
session laws and compiled statutes of U.S. states.  RDA 6.19.2.5.1 says to use 
"Laws, etc." for compilations of laws but does not mention qualifiers, and 
neither does the corresponding LC/PCC PS.  Is this now covered somewhere else 
in RDA?


Christopher Thomas, M.L.S. | Electronic Resources and Metadata Librarian
(949) 824-7681 | fax (949) 824-6700 | 
ctho...@law.uci.edu
Law Library * University of California * Irvine
www.law.uci.edu/library
[Logo_size03]


<>

Re: [RDA-L] Language of expression

[Joan Wang]

Many thanks for your reply, Adam

I actually found the example under RDA 6.11.1.4. If following the rule,
record each of the languages (in authorized access points) for a motion
picture with some dialogue in English, some dialogue in German, and some
dialogue in Russian. There is also another example of an atlas involving
seven languages.

What you are saying is under Library of Congress Policy Appendix 1?


 English
German
Russian
 Resource described: Defiance / Paramount Vantage presents a Grosvenor
Park/Bedford Falls production ; an Edward Zwick film ; executive producer,
Marshall Herskovitz ; produced by Edward Zwick, Pieter Jan Brugge ;
director of photography, Eduardo Serra ; screenplay by Clayton Frohman &
Edward Zwick ; directed by Edward Zwick. *A motion picture with some
dialogue in English, some dialogue in German, and some dialogue in Russian.*


Thanks again,
Joan Wang


On Thu, Jun 6, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Adam Schiff wrote:

> For a film in which there are multiple languages spoken in a single
> expression, you would not use an expression access point at all.  You would
> just use the access point for the work, but you would record the languages
> in 008 and 041 and 546 only.  The example in RDA is Defiance:
>
> 041 0_  eng $a ger $a rus
>
> 130 0   Defiance (Motion picture : 2008)
>
> 245 10 Defiance / $c Paramount Vantage presents a Grosvenor Park/Bedford
> Falls production ; an Edward Zwick film ; executive producer, Marshall
> Herskovitz ; produced by Edward Zwick, Pieter Jan Brugge ; director of
> photography, Eduardo Serra ; screenplay by Clayton Frohman & Edward Zwick ;
> directed by Edward Zwick.
>
> 546   In English, German, and Russian.
>
> Now if the DVD you had of this film also had dubbed versions or subtitled
> versions, you could make additional access points for those expressions
> included on your manifestation:
>
> 041 1_  eng $a ger $a rus $a fre $a spa $j eng $j fre $j spa $h eng $h ger
> $h rus
>
> 546   In English, German, and Russian; dubbed French or dubbed Spanish
> dialogue with optional English, French, or Spanish subtitles.
>
> 730 02 $I Contains (expression): $a Defiance (Motion picture : 2008). $l
> French.
>
> 730 02 $I Contains (expression): $a Defiance (Motion picture : 2008). $l
> Spanish.
>
> There isn't a good way or best practice yet to formulate and distinguish a
> dubbed expression from a subtitled expression, although I suppose you could
> do something like this if you felt the next to differentiate to that level:
>
> 730 02 $I Contains (expression): $a Defiance (Motion picture : 2008). $l
> French. $s (Dubbed)
>
> 730 02 $I Contains (expression): $a Defiance (Motion picture : 2008). $l
> Spanish. $s (Dubbed)
>
> 730 02 $I Contains (expression): $a Defiance (Motion picture : 2008). $l
> English. $s (Subtitled)
>
> 730 02 $I Contains (expression): $a Defiance (Motion picture : 2008). $l
> French. $s (Subtitled)
>
> 730 02 $I Contains (expression): $a Defiance (Motion picture : 2008). $l
> Spanish. $s (Subtitled)
>
>
> --Adam Schiff
> University of Washington Libraries
>
> From: Joan Wang
> Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2013 9:50 AM
> To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
> Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Language of expression
>
>
> Many thanks. Trina.
>
> Yes, what I am talking about are authorized access points for expressions.
> Language is a part of them.
>
> I just realized that more than one expression contained in a manifestation
> should go primary relationships between Group 1 entities. It may not be
> covered by RDA 6.11.
>
> A motion picture contains subtitles should not be considered multiple
> expressions? I kind of agree with you. I looked at Library of Congress
> Policy Appendix 1 (for motion pictures, television programs, radio
> programs). It does say following RDA 6.11.1.4 to construct authorized
> access points for a subtitled motion picture released under the same or a
> different title. So if a motion picture has subtitles in more than one
> language, it is a single expression involving multiple languages.
>
> For more than one language in a single expression, encoding them in one $l
> may not be correct. I suspect that too. If following RDA 6.11.1.4, we would
> encode each of them in separate fields. So we would see, for example,
> multiple 730 fields (each has $l). Hope somebody else would like to confirm
> it.
>
> Thanks for your time.
>
>
> Joan Wang
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 11:03 PM, Trina Pundurs <
> tpund...@library.berkeley.edu**> wrote:
>
> Hi Joan,
>
> I'll wade in here, with the caveat that I'm several years removed from my
> last regular experience cataloging AV materials.
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 4, 2013 at 1:52 PM, Joan Wang 
> wrote:
>
>
> Hi, all
>
> I have a question about language of expression. RDA actually has two
> separate sections for one language and more than one language in an
> expression (not a manifestation). For one language, if my understanding is
> correct, we record it only if it is a translation or a different language
> edit