Re: [RDA-L] JSC, ISBD, and ISSN: harmonization discussions
On August 16, John Hostage wrote : Subject headings are a specialized area because they are so language dependent. The Bibliotheque nationale de France has developed RAMEAU (http://www.bnf.fr/en/professionals/anx_cataloging_indexing/a.subject_reference_systems.html http://www.bnf.fr/en/professionals/anx_cataloging_indexing/a.subject_reference_systems.html ), which I think was based on LCSH. RAMEAU was actually based on the Répertoire de vedettes-matière developed by Université Laval in Quebec and which is itself adapted in part from LCSH. Sources: http://rameau.bnf.fr/informations/convention.htm; https://rvmweb.bibl.ulaval.ca/a-propos. Daniel Paradis Bibliothécaire Direction du traitement documentaire des collections patrimoniales Bibliothèque et Archives nationales du Québec 2275, rue Holt Montréal (Québec) H2G 3H1 Téléphone : 514 873-1101, poste 3721 Télécopieur : 514 873-7296 daniel.para...@banq.qc.ca http://www.banq.qc.ca http://www.banq.qc.ca/ From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] on behalf of Karen Coyle [li...@kcoyle.net] Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 19:18 To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] JSC, ISBD, and ISSN: harmonization discussions John, thanks for being our ears on the ground. I think that we have to be careful about how we define use ISBD, and I had trouble posing that question originally. I think the key question is whether people use the ISBD documentation AS THEIR CATALOGING RULES, or whether they have local catalong rules that are designed to be compatible with ISBD. I don't know if you would consider AACR2 and RDA to be conformant with ISBD (I don't know any of them well enough to make that determination.) My question was intended to be the former: that people actually catalog from the ISBD rules as issued by IFLA. Then we get into Ed's question: is that all? Or do they supplement ISBD with headings for authors and subjects, etc.? And I have yet another question, which is: have they developed a data format that represents ISBD for this purpose? (If so, I'd like to see it.) It does appear that the Finnish library works very closely to ISBD and I have sent them a few extra questions (and I should apologize for taking their time in the midst of IFLA!). Thanks again, kc On 8/15/12 1:32 PM, John Hostage wrote: Ed, I'm sorry, we didn't get into that question. The group is planning an international survey to find out who uses the ISBD, so I'll suggest that they include that question in the survey. John -- John Hostage Authorities and Database Integrity Librarian Langdell Hall Harvard Law School Library Cambridge, MA 02138 host...@law.harvard.edu mailto:host...@law.harvard.edu +(1)(617) 495-3974 (voice) +(1)(617) 496-4409 (fax) http://www.law.harvard.edu/library/ http://www.law.harvard.edu/library/ From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] on behalf of Ed Jones [ejo...@nu.edu] Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 15:46 To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] JSC, ISBD, and ISSN: harmonization discussions John If these countries use ISBD, they presumably use it in place of locally elaborated rules for bibliographic description (corresponding to AACR2 part 1). What do they do for choice and form of access points (corresponding to AACR2 part 2), where no comprehensive international standard exists? Ed Ed Jones Associate Director, Assessment and Technical Services National University Library 9393 Lightwave Avenue San Diego, California 92123-1447 +1 858 541 7920 (voice) +1 858 541 7997 (fax) http://national.academia.edu/EdJones From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of John Hostage Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 12:30 PM To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] JSC, ISBD, and ISSN: harmonization discussions I'm at the IFLA conference in Helsinki, so I put this question to the ISBD Review Group. The responses indicated that the ISBD is used as the cataloging code here in Finland. See, for example, this report on the National Metadata Repository (http://www.nationallibrary.fi/libraries/projects/metadatarepository.html) under Subprojects. In Slovenia, the ISBD will be used for cataloging once
Re: [RDA-L] JSC, ISBD, and ISSN: harmonization discussions
On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 1:54 AM, Karen Coyle wrote: snip Ugh. No, it begins with people who have web sites realizing that if they want their site to be found (also known as SEO) then they need to add metadata. Hopefully, CMS's and software like Dreamweaver will start making it easy to add this metadata. The metadata is then spider-able by anyone who wants to spider it, and if the data makes use of things like URIs, it also becomes linkable to data in Wikipedia, geonames, id.loc.gov, etc. Since each web site automatically has an identifier, anyone else (like your librarians) could create more data that is associated with that identifier (like making connections to VIAF). But the it starts with librarians is a non-starter. There are how many billions of sites on the Web, and how many that are new or that change each day? I'd just be happy if librarians would start thinking about how to make use of the micro-data that is out there today, INCLUDING the WorldCat linked data. For that latter, I have a very brief video walk through -- for human access, not machines: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkF9IPcPDYgfeature=plcp I'm now looking at the WorldCat file that was exported, and hope to have some how to related to that before too long. /snip In my opinion, that would be a making serious mistake for libraries since it would just be creating another version of Google (i.e. with no selection and reliance on SEO) and I believe would lead to the ultimate obsolescence of libraries and librarians. My article was entitled How to keep the practice of librarianship relevant in the age of the Internet. Not very poetic perhaps, but still a highly pertinent idea. Concerning libraries and linked data, I think we can all assume that if and when linked data really begins to take off (although such a development is still doubtful), that is when Google, Facebook, Bing, Yahoo, and the rest will dive in in such a way that libraries will be elbowed out completely and won't have a chance. The coding used: RDF, microdata, RDFa or whatever will make no difference to the outcome. To combat this, libraries must find a path for themselves. They can do this by making something different from what the Googles make--and what the Googles don't *want* to make--and that everyone knows the public wants. One way of creating something that the public wants, and that many are beginning to demand, is to provide selection--reliable selection in all kinds of meaning of the term. People are starting to understand that the touted secret algorithms can always be cracked for the advantage of some group or individual (and the algorithms were never that great anyway). Certainly the idea of library selection would have to change, and those changes would lead to other changes, but at least we would be providing something that the public wants and no one else provides. I would also hope that people would begin to appreciate reliable metadata as well. The average person doesn't know how to make coherent metadata and the vast majority couldn't care less about it: the authors added often reflect a bureaucratic need to make sure that the bosses can fill out their CVs, so those names are added to practically everything in their own departments, or they add everybody who just looked at the resource. (I've seen this happen more than once) An untrained person cannot even begin to analyse a subject, much less assign subject descriptors from a thesaurus in a coherent way, and I won't even mention the complexities of LCSH. Relying on the public to assign metadata will provide something like these two examples of tags on Amazon: Going rogue by Sarah Palin http://amzn.to/3YL2CD and Dreams from My Father by Barack Obama http://amzn.to/QyFyxR Then with spammers, advertisers, blah blah, we would wind up with exactly what we have now. Why wouldn't we see more of the same? To me, believing that linked data and SEO, especially without some kind of reliable selection, will be any improvement over what we see in the search engines now is just wishing. It will be the same characters doing the same things they do now, just using slightly different methods. I still believe that there is a lot that librarians can do to improve what the public currently has and librarians can become vital parts of the information universe, but they need to take different directions. -- James L. Weinheimer weinheimer.ji...@gmail.com First Thus: http://catalogingmatters.blogspot.com/ Cooperative Cataloging Rules: http://sites.google.com/site/opencatalogingrules
Re: [RDA-L] JSC, ISBD, and ISSN: harmonization discussions
On 22/08/2012 23:46, Kevin M Randall wrote: snip But until we do have some mechanism for dynamically keeping descriptions current, the notes that you say are completely useless are absolutely essential. I certainly agree with you that the traditional methods of creating metadata are not adequate for handling the universe of online resources. But that does not mean that we shouldn't still have standards that will allow traditional metadata and created-in-an-as-yet-unknown-method-and-system metadata to be able to interoperate. Developing those standards is what we're trying to do with RDA. Hopefully there will be ways to harvest data from the resources themselves, and map them to the data definitions in RDA, to get them into our discovery tools. But until we reach that goal, we still need to be creating traditional records, and we need to know what it is that the records are describing. With a Description based on note, there is a clue to what was described, and when. /snip This was my point: that catalogers need to find methods to make sure that the records describe something that actually exists! While I have little argument against placing a note detailing when the description was made, I doubt how important it is since it only shows people (librarians, because the public will not really understand it) more precisely how obsolete the information is. Oh! This record is five [ten, twenty, etc.] years out of date. Therefore, it is a rather sad bit of information, but from another viewpoint, it is the easiest part of the record! Still, the mere fact that catalogers will be spending their time creating records that have a very high probability of being obsolete in x number of weeks or months or years does not bode well for how administrators will view the value of catalog records. And they are the ones who must be convinced--not catalogers or even the public. Several years ago, I wrote an article where I tried to deal with this issue: http://www.emeraldinsight.com/journals.htm?articleid=1668881show=pdf and I think it is still not too bad of an idea. If I had the chance to do over again, I would improve the article because I tried to write for both an IT audience and a cataloging audience at the same time and I don't believe it worked all that well. Still the basic idea still is worth a try (I think), where embedded metadata would be linked to separate metadata records in catalogs and spiders would keep the two in sync. There was a major role for selectors, responsibilities for web masters and for catalogers too. But novel ideas are needed more than ever, I think that is becoming clear enough to all. http://www.emeraldinsight.com/journals.htm?articleid=1668881show=pdf -- *James Weinheimer* weinheimer.ji...@gmail.com *First Thus* http://catalogingmatters.blogspot.com/ *Cooperative Cataloging Rules* http://sites.google.com/site/opencatalogingrules/ *Cataloging Matters Podcasts* http://blog.jweinheimer.net/p/cataloging-matters-podcasts.html
Re: [RDA-L] JSC, ISBD, and ISSN: harmonization discussions
On 8/23/12 10:43 AM, James Weinheimer wrote: Still the basic idea still is worth a try (I think), where embedded metadata would be linked to separate metadata records in catalogs and spiders would keep the two in sync. I believe the technology is called microformats,[1] with the primary one today being schema.org. This is also the basis for the linked data that is now included in each Worldcat page. kc [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microformats But novel ideas are needed more than ever, I think that is becoming clear enough to all. -- *James Weinheimer* weinheimer.ji...@gmail.com *First Thus* http://catalogingmatters.blogspot.com/ *Cooperative Cataloging Rules* http://sites.google.com/site/opencatalogingrules/ *Cataloging Matters Podcasts* http://blog.jweinheimer.net/p/cataloging-matters-podcasts.html -- Karen Coyle kco...@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net ph: 1-510-540-7596 m: 1-510-435-8234 skype: kcoylenet
Re: [RDA-L] JSC, ISBD, and ISSN: harmonization discussions
On 23/08/2012 22:55, Karen Coyle wrote: snip On 8/23/12 10:43 AM, James Weinheimer wrote: Still the basic idea still is worth a try (I think), where embedded metadata would be linked to separate metadata records in catalogs and spiders would keep the two in sync. I believe the technology is called microformats,[1] with the primary one today being schema.org. This is also the basis for the linked data that is now included in each Worldcat page. /snip Yes. Back in 1998-9, I don't believe microformats existed yet. In my examples, I used information in the meta fields in the header, but it all comes down to the same thing. My idea was based on setting up a workflow in tandem with webmasters. It starts with library (or other expert) selectors who would select sites and get into initial touch with the webmaster of the sites they selected, telling them that their sites were selected as especially valuable and what was expected of them. Catalogers would then make the initial description along with headings; then the entire record(s) would be sent to the webmaster, who would add the record to the headers of the required pages of their sites. The workflow followed CIP up to this point. After this, it was they up to the webmasters to update the descriptive information (about 1000 times more efficient than library catalogers), while all headings would be updated by catalogers. Webmasters could add their own keywords (limited to a certain number, controlled for spam, etc.) plus other information. Spiders would keep everything in sync. Certainly microformats would be great for something like this. -- *James Weinheimer* weinheimer.ji...@gmail.com *First Thus* http://catalogingmatters.blogspot.com/ *Cooperative Cataloging Rules* http://sites.google.com/site/opencatalogingrules/ *Cataloging Matters Podcasts* http://blog.jweinheimer.net/p/cataloging-matters-podcasts.html
Re: [RDA-L] JSC, ISBD, and ISSN: harmonization discussions
20.08.2012 21:59, J. McRee Elrod: Heidrun wisely said: The ISBD has been a common core of many cataloguing codes for decades. This common ground shouldn't be casually abandoned. VERY true. While not taking issue with the importance of ISBD as such, it can, I think, not be called a common core of cataloging codes in general, but of those of their parts relating to description. While the D in RDA is for Description, the focus is really all on the A for Access, and that's a lot more relevant these days for most people using catalogs. So, I think it is appropriate that RDA doesn't go to all the lengths, as older codes did, of painstakingly describing every bit of descriptive information and how it should all be stitched together for a readable display. The latter can and must be left to software, and I think it is true that ISBD had not been formulated with an eye on how well the rules lent themselves to being algorithmically representable. Where there is still a demand for ISBD display, and I'm not arguing with this, one will have to live with minor flaws. What's more important is that much more detail than before should be actionable for algorithms. This, of course and among other things, speaks for standardized codes and acronyms rather than vernacular verbiage. The focus in cataloging must be on access points and their standardization and international harmonization by way of vehicles like VIAF. Thus, RAD would be a more appropriate name for a contemporary code. Another focus should be on the question of *what* we catalog, and here in particular, how to treat parts of larger entities. As of now, the woefully inadequate contents note for multipart publications seems still very much alive. B.Eversberg
Re: [RDA-L] JSC, ISBD, and ISSN: harmonization discussions
Bernhard said:
While not taking issue with the importance of ISBD as such, it
can, I think, not be called a common core of cataloging codes
in general, but of those of their parts relating to description.
It is true that ISBD does not address access points. ISBD does
provide for the transcription of information which in turn justifies
access points. One of the great weaknesses of RDA (IMNSHO) is the
breaking of the link between description and access points; in RDA one
may transcribe and not trace, and/or trace a name not justified by
transcription.
The latter [display] can and must be left to software ...
So long as librarians familiar with bibliographic display dating back
to Panizzi are responsible, and not IT people with no expertise in
that area. Unlabeled ISBD display is certainly the easiest for me to
understand. A criminal defendant, composer, translator, illustrator,
editor, etc. with the label Author really irritates me.
Contributor or Personal name isn't very helpful either.
This, of course and among other things, speaks for standardized
codes and acronyms rather than vernacular verbiage.
If you mean substitution of language of the catalogue phrases for
standardized ISBD Latin abbreviation inclusions, I could not agree
with you more. I hope you will urge EURIG to stick with ISBD
inclusions, not to mention adopting ISBD's Area 0 electronic as
media type.
The focus in cataloging must be on access points and their
standardization and international harmonization by way of vehicles
like VIAF.
Yes.
Another focus should be on the question of *what* we catalog, and
here in particular, how to treat parts of larger entities.
We found the UKMARC 248 to be an excellent solution, giving direct
title access to constituent parts as opposed to the difficult to index
505$t and 700$t. Too bad UK cataloguers did not stick to their guns
and get that added to MARC21. German cataloguers did a better job of
getting favourite things added, but did not address constituent parts.
Something like UKMARC 248 should be a part of the new coding schema,
assuming it ever actually happens.
__ __ J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
{__ | / Special Libraries Cataloguing HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
___} |__ \__
Re: [RDA-L] JSC, ISBD, and ISSN: harmonization discussions
On 22/08/2012 08:56, Bernhard Eversberg wrote: snip 20.08.2012 21:59, J. McRee Elrod: Heidrun wisely said: The ISBD has been a common core of many cataloguing codes for decades. This common ground shouldn't be casually abandoned. VERY true. While not taking issue with the importance of ISBD as such, it can, I think, not be called a common core of cataloging codes in general, but of those of their parts relating to description. While the D in RDA is for Description, the focus is really all on the A for Access, and that's a lot more relevant these days for most people using catalogs. So, I think it is appropriate that RDA doesn't go to all the lengths, as older codes did, of painstakingly describing every bit of descriptive information and how it should all be stitched together for a readable display. The latter can and must be left to software, and I think it is true that ISBD had not been formulated with an eye on how well the rules lent themselves to being algorithmically representable. Where there is still a demand for ISBD display, and I'm not arguing with this, one will have to live with minor flaws. What's more important is that much more detail than before should be actionable for algorithms. This, of course and among other things, speaks for standardized codes and acronyms rather than vernacular verbiage. The focus in cataloging must be on access points and their standardization and international harmonization by way of vehicles like VIAF. Thus, RAD would be a more appropriate name for a contemporary code. Another focus should be on the question of *what* we catalog, and here in particular, how to treat parts of larger entities. As of now, the woefully inadequate contents note for multipart publications seems still very much alive. /snip Right now I am assisting on an inventory of serials so therefore at this moment, I am feeling that *the rules* for description must be standardized, otherwise pure chaos awaits. For instance, interlibrary loans (so long as they are allowed!) demand precise description and therefore, if we want ILLs, precise descriptions seem unavoidable if they are to work at all--otherwise, everybody will forever be requesting what you already have, requesting what another library doesn't have, or they send something you do not want. ISBD provides this level of standardization and nothing I have seen has tried to displace it. Selectors also need such accuracy. *How* a record displays is another matter but, I have always felt that the display aspect of ISBD has been overblown by the IT community. I believe there should be *a* standardized display (for experts) and the current ISBD is as good as any for now, but I am sure there are many other displays that could the purpose just as well or better. Today, displays are flexible, as they have been for quite some time, and this flexibility should be the emphasis for the *public*. Expert-librarians have their own requirements, but these requirement are *no less* important then what the public needs. Modern systems should be able to allow it all. I do believe that the purpose of description should be reconsidered since our current rules suffer from a paradox. Description of physical materials that never change are one matter, but online materials that change randomly, sometimes very frequently, and without any notification, present an entirely different situation. Sooner or later, catalogers must consider how it is possible to describe virtual materials that are completely mercurial, by creating a record that must be changed manually. I have thought about this for a long time, and have never found any solution, nor have I seen one offered, therefore novel ideas must be tried. Notes such as Description based on web page (Dec. 23, 2008) are 100% completely useless for everyone involved, including the catalogers, and serve only as salve for the cataloger at the time of making the record. The description should be based on the resource as it stands currently, not on some version that no longer exists. The only solution in the traditional sense would be to try to start cataloging each instance as found in the Wayback Machine of the Internet Archive, but the very prospect is a nightmare. I think we would find very few takers on that one! You can count me out. That would truly be like trying to fight the ocean and you will drown. Several years ago, I wrote a letter to D-Lib Magazine about this issue, and surprisingly, I find that I still agree with it http://www.dlib.org/dlib/march01/03letters.html -- *James Weinheimer* weinheimer.ji...@gmail.com *First Thus* http://catalogingmatters.blogspot.com/ *Cooperative Cataloging Rules* http://sites.google.com/site/opencatalogingrules/ *Cataloging Matters Podcasts* http://blog.jweinheimer.net/p/cataloging-matters-podcasts.html
Re: [RDA-L] JSC, ISBD, and ISSN: harmonization discussions
James Weinheimer wrote: Notes such as Description based on web page (Dec. 23, 2008) are 100% completely useless for everyone involved, including the catalogers, and serve only as salve for the cataloger at the time of making the record. The description should be based on the resource as it stands currently, not on some version that no longer exists. But until we do have some mechanism for dynamically keeping descriptions current, the notes that you say are completely useless are absolutely essential. I certainly agree with you that the traditional methods of creating metadata are not adequate for handling the universe of online resources. But that does not mean that we shouldn't still have standards that will allow traditional metadata and created-in-an-as-yet-unknown-method-and-system metadata to be able to interoperate. Developing those standards is what we're trying to do with RDA. Hopefully there will be ways to harvest data from the resources themselves, and map them to the data definitions in RDA, to get them into our discovery tools. But until we reach that goal, we still need to be creating traditional records, and we need to know what it is that the records are describing. With a Description based on note, there is a clue to what was described, and when. Kevin M. Randall Principal Serials Cataloger Bibliographic Services Dept. Northwestern University Library 1970 Campus Drive Evanston, IL 60208-2300 email: k...@northwestern.edu phone: (847) 491-2939 fax: (847) 491-4345
Re: [RDA-L] JSC, ISBD, and ISSN: harmonization discussions
: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] on behalf of Karen Coyle [li...@kcoyle.net] Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 19:18 To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] JSC, ISBD, and ISSN: harmonization discussions John, thanks for being our ears on the ground. I think that we have to be careful about how we define use ISBD, and I had trouble posing that question originally. I think the key question is whether people use the ISBD documentation AS THEIR CATALOGING RULES, or whether they have local catalong rules that are designed to be compatible with ISBD. I don't know if you would consider AACR2 and RDA to be conformant with ISBD (I don't know any of them well enough to make that determination.) My question was intended to be the former: that people actually catalog from the ISBD rules as issued by IFLA. Then we get into Ed's question: is that all? Or do they supplement ISBD with headings for authors and subjects, etc.? And I have yet another question, which is: have they developed a data format that represents ISBD for this purpose? (If so, I'd like to see it.) It does appear that the Finnish library works very closely to ISBD and I have sent them a few extra questions (and I should apologize for taking their time in the midst of IFLA!). Thanks again, kc On 8/15/12 1:32 PM, John Hostage wrote: Ed, I'm sorry, we didn't get into that question. The group is planning an international survey to find out who uses the ISBD
Re: [RDA-L] JSC, ISBD, and ISSN: harmonization discussions
I think most people would agree that AACR2 was based on the ISBD. The essential characteristics were the 8 areas of description, a prescribed order of elements, and prescribed punctuation. Although some claim that ISBD is one of the foundations of RDA, I see RDA as a fairly clean break with that tradition. Punctuation and order of elements are relegated to an appendix. There is now a study group working on an RDF representation of the ISBD as well as mappings with RDA, but since RDA is so much further along on this road, one has to wonder if the effort is worthwhile. The UNIMARC format (http://www.ifla.org/en/publications/unimarc-formats-and-related-documentation) attempts to keep in alignment with the ISBD. The concise format is available for free download of the PDF file, but the full format is only available for sale. This is now a burning issue within IFLA for this and other standards. From the concise format you can see that it's similar to MARC 21 in its use of fields, subfields, and indicators, but the fields represent different things. Germany is planning to switch to RDA (a translation is in progress), but up to now they have used RAK (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regeln_f%C3%BCr_die_alphabetische_Katalogisierung) (sorry, no English page) for description and access points. The descriptive part was also based on ISBD. Subject headings are a specialized area because they are so language dependent. The Bibliotheque nationale de France has developed RAMEAU (http://www.bnf.fr/en/professionals/anx_cataloging_indexing/a.subject_reference_systems.html), which I think was based on LCSH. The Deutsche Nationalbibliothek has the Schlagwortnormdatei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subject_Headings_Authority_File), which is a very different system of descriptors. I think Italy has its own subject heading list. I'm not familiar with what other countries use. -- John Hostage Authorities and Database Integrity Librarian Langdell Hall Harvard Law School Library Cambridge, MA 02138 host...@law.harvard.edumailto:host...@law.harvard.edu +(1)(617) 495-3974 (voice) +(1)(617) 496-4409 (fax) http://www.law.harvard.edu/library/ From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] on behalf of Karen Coyle [li...@kcoyle.net] Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 19:18 To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] JSC, ISBD, and ISSN: harmonization discussions John, thanks for being our ears on the ground. I think that we have to be careful about how we define use ISBD, and I had trouble posing that question originally. I think the key question is whether people use the ISBD documentation AS THEIR CATALOGING RULES, or whether they have local catalong rules that are designed to be compatible with ISBD. I don't know if you would consider AACR2 and RDA to be conformant with ISBD (I don't know any of them well enough to make that determination.) My question was intended to be the former: that people actually catalog from the ISBD rules as issued by IFLA. Then we get into Ed's question: is that all? Or do they supplement ISBD with headings for authors and subjects, etc.? And I have yet another question, which is: have they developed a data format that represents ISBD for this purpose? (If so, I'd like to see it.) It does appear that the Finnish library works very closely to ISBD and I have sent them a few extra questions (and I should apologize for taking their time in the midst of IFLA!). Thanks again, kc On 8/15/12 1:32 PM, John Hostage wrote: Ed, I'm sorry, we didn't get into that question. The group is planning an international survey to find out who uses the ISBD, so I'll suggest that they include that question in the survey. John -- John Hostage Authorities and Database Integrity Librarian Langdell Hall Harvard Law School Library Cambridge, MA 02138 host...@law.harvard.edumailto:host...@law.harvard.edu +(1)(617) 495-3974 (voice) +(1)(617) 496-4409 (fax) http://www.law.harvard.edu/library/ From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CAmailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] on behalf of Ed Jones [ejo...@nu.edumailto:ejo...@nu.edu] Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 15:46 To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CAmailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] JSC, ISBD, and ISSN: harmonization discussions John If these countries use ISBD, they presumably use it in place of locally elaborated rules for bibliographic description (corresponding to AACR2 part 1). What do they do for choice and form of access points (corresponding to AACR2 part 2), where no comprehensive international standard exists? Ed Ed Jones Associate Director, Assessment and Technical Services National University Library 9393 Lightwave Avenue
Re: [RDA-L] JSC, ISBD, and ISSN: harmonization discussions
I'm at the IFLA conference in Helsinki, so I put this question to the ISBD Review Group. The responses indicated that the ISBD is used as the cataloging code here in Finland. See, for example, this report on the National Metadata Repository (http://www.nationallibrary.fi/libraries/projects/metadatarepository.html) under Subprojects. In Slovenia, the ISBD will be used for cataloging once a translation of the consolidated edition has been completed. In many countries, the adoption of any cataloging rules depends on the availability of a translation into the local language. Because the ISBD covers description only, a translation is sometimes incorporated into a national code that includes headings. The group had trouble understanding how the question was meant because of these complications. Multiple translations of the preliminary consolidated edition are listed at http://www.ifla.org/publications/translations-of-isbd A couple of translations of the consolidated edition of 2011 are listed at http://www.ifla.org/en/publications/international-standard-bibliographic-description and more are in preparation. A document showing full ISBD examples using various languages of cataloging is also available on that page. Russia uses the ISBD for cataloging, but not the new area 0. Italy's new cataloging code REICAT was based on the ISBD, but does not include area 0. -- John Hostage Authorities and Database Integrity Librarian Langdell Hall Harvard Law School Library Cambridge, MA 02138 host...@law.harvard.edu +(1)(617) 495-3974 (voice) +(1)(617) 496-4409 (fax) http://www.law.harvard.edu/library/ From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] on behalf of Karen Coyle [li...@kcoyle.net] Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 19:43 To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] JSC, ISBD, and ISSN: harmonization discussions Thanks, Judy. But now I have to ask an ignorant (but perhaps not stupid) question: are the libraries that catalog directly in ISBD? I've seen cataloging rules that incorporate ISBD concepts, but I haven't ever encountered a library where ISBD is their cataloging rules. I'm wondering what the resulting records might look like. kc On 8/12/12 2:32 PM, JSC Secretary wrote: An announcement about the 2011 JSC, ISBD, and ISSN harmonization discussions has been posted on the JSC web site with an indication that some topics will be addressed at the November 2012 JSC meeting. http://www.rda-jsc.org/2011jscisbdissnoutcomes.html Regards, Judy Kuhagen JSC Secretary -- Karen Coyle kco...@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net ph: 1-510-540-7596 m: 1-510-435-8234 skype: kcoylenet
Re: [RDA-L] JSC, ISBD, and ISSN: harmonization discussions
Ed, I'm sorry, we didn't get into that question. The group is planning an international survey to find out who uses the ISBD, so I'll suggest that they include that question in the survey. John -- John Hostage Authorities and Database Integrity Librarian Langdell Hall Harvard Law School Library Cambridge, MA 02138 host...@law.harvard.edumailto:host...@law.harvard.edu +(1)(617) 495-3974 (voice) +(1)(617) 496-4409 (fax) http://www.law.harvard.edu/library/ From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] on behalf of Ed Jones [ejo...@nu.edu] Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 15:46 To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] JSC, ISBD, and ISSN: harmonization discussions John If these countries use ISBD, they presumably use it in place of locally elaborated rules for bibliographic description (corresponding to AACR2 part 1). What do they do for choice and form of access points (corresponding to AACR2 part 2), where no comprehensive international standard exists? Ed Ed Jones Associate Director, Assessment and Technical Services National University Library 9393 Lightwave Avenue San Diego, California 92123-1447 +1 858 541 7920 (voice) +1 858 541 7997 (fax) http://national.academia.edu/EdJones From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of John Hostage Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 12:30 PM To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] JSC, ISBD, and ISSN: harmonization discussions I'm at the IFLA conference in Helsinki, so I put this question to the ISBD Review Group. The responses indicated that the ISBD is used as the cataloging code here in Finland. See, for example, this report on the National Metadata Repository (http://www.nationallibrary.fi/libraries/projects/metadatarepository.html) under Subprojects. In Slovenia, the ISBD will be used for cataloging once a translation of the consolidated edition has been completed. In many countries, the adoption of any cataloging rules depends on the availability of a translation into the local language. Because the ISBD covers description only, a translation is sometimes incorporated into a national code that includes headings. The group had trouble understanding how the question was meant because of these complications. Multiple translations of the preliminary consolidated edition are listed at http://www.ifla.org/publications/translations-of-isbd A couple of translations of the consolidated edition of 2011 are listed at http://www.ifla.org/en/publications/international-standard-bibliographic-description and more are in preparation. A document showing full ISBD examples using various languages of cataloging is also available on that page. Russia uses the ISBD for cataloging, but not the new area 0. Italy's new cataloging code REICAT was based on the ISBD, but does not include area 0. -- John Hostage Authorities and Database Integrity Librarian Langdell Hall Harvard Law School Library Cambridge, MA 02138 host...@law.harvard.edumailto:host...@law.harvard.edu +(1)(617) 495-3974 (voice) +(1)(617) 496-4409 (fax) http://www.law.harvard.edu/library/ From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] on behalf of Karen Coyle [li...@kcoyle.net] Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 19:43 To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CAmailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] JSC, ISBD, and ISSN: harmonization discussions Thanks, Judy. But now I have to ask an ignorant (but perhaps not stupid) question: are the libraries that catalog directly in ISBD? I've seen cataloging rules that incorporate ISBD concepts, but I haven't ever encountered a library where ISBD is their cataloging rules. I'm wondering what the resulting records might look like. kc On 8/12/12 2:32 PM, JSC Secretary wrote: An announcement about the 2011 JSC, ISBD, and ISSN harmonization discussions has been posted on the JSC web site with an indication that some topics will be addressed at the November 2012 JSC meeting. http://www.rda-jsc.org/2011jscisbdissnoutcomes.html Regards, Judy Kuhagen JSC Secretary -- Karen Coyle kco...@kcoyle.netmailto:kco...@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net ph: 1-510-540-7596 m: 1-510-435-8234 skype: kcoylenet
Re: [RDA-L] JSC, ISBD, and ISSN: harmonization discussions
John, thanks for being our ears on the ground. I think that we have to be careful about how we define use ISBD, and I had trouble posing that question originally. I think the key question is whether people use the ISBD documentation AS THEIR CATALOGING RULES, or whether they have local catalong rules that are designed to be compatible with ISBD. I don't know if you would consider AACR2 and RDA to be conformant with ISBD (I don't know any of them well enough to make that determination.) My question was intended to be the former: that people actually catalog from the ISBD rules as issued by IFLA. Then we get into Ed's question: is that all? Or do they supplement ISBD with headings for authors and subjects, etc.? And I have yet another question, which is: have they developed a data format that represents ISBD for this purpose? (If so, I'd like to see it.) It does appear that the Finnish library works very closely to ISBD and I have sent them a few extra questions (and I should apologize for taking their time in the midst of IFLA!). Thanks again, kc On 8/15/12 1:32 PM, John Hostage wrote: Ed, I'm sorry, we didn't get into that question. The group is planning an international survey to find out who uses the ISBD, so I'll suggest that they include that question in the survey. John -- John Hostage Authorities and Database Integrity Librarian Langdell Hall Harvard Law School Library Cambridge, MA 02138 host...@law.harvard.edu mailto:host...@law.harvard.edu +(1)(617) 495-3974 (voice) +(1)(617) 496-4409 (fax) http://www.law.harvard.edu/library/ *From:* Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] on behalf of Ed Jones [ejo...@nu.edu] *Sent:* Wednesday, August 15, 2012 15:46 *To:* RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA *Subject:* Re: [RDA-L] JSC, ISBD, and ISSN: harmonization discussions John If these countries use ISBD, they presumably use it in place of locally elaborated rules for bibliographic description (corresponding to AACR2 part 1). What do they do for choice and form of access points (corresponding to AACR2 part 2), where no comprehensive international standard exists? Ed Ed Jones Associate Director, Assessment and Technical Services National University Library 9393 Lightwave Avenue San Diego, California 92123-1447 +1 858 541 7920 (voice) +1 858 541 7997 (fax) http://national.academia.edu/EdJones *From:*Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] *On Behalf Of *John Hostage *Sent:* Wednesday, August 15, 2012 12:30 PM *To:* RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA *Subject:* Re: [RDA-L] JSC, ISBD, and ISSN: harmonization discussions I'm at the IFLA conference in Helsinki, so I put this question to the ISBD Review Group. The responses indicated that the ISBD is used as the cataloging code here in Finland. See, for example, this report on the National Metadata Repository (http://www.nationallibrary.fi/libraries/projects/metadatarepository.html) under Subprojects. In Slovenia, the ISBD will be used for cataloging once a translation of the consolidated edition has been completed. In many countries, the adoption of any cataloging rules depends on the availability of a translation into the local language. Because the ISBD covers description only, a translation is sometimes incorporated into a national code that includes headings. The group had trouble understanding how the question was meant because of these complications. Multiple translations of the preliminary consolidated edition are listed at http://www.ifla.org/publications/translations-of-isbd A couple of translations of the consolidated edition of 2011 are listed at http://www.ifla.org/en/publications/international-standard-bibliographic-description and more are in preparation. A document showing full ISBD examples using various languages of cataloging is also available on that page. Russia uses the ISBD for cataloging, but not the new area 0. Italy's new cataloging code REICAT was based on the ISBD, but does not include area 0. -- John Hostage Authorities and Database Integrity Librarian Langdell Hall Harvard Law School Library Cambridge, MA 02138 host...@law.harvard.edu mailto:host...@law.harvard.edu +(1)(617) 495-3974 (voice) +(1)(617) 496-4409 (fax) http://www.law.harvard.edu/library/ From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] on behalf of Karen Coyle [li...@kcoyle.net] Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2012 19:43 To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] JSC, ISBD, and ISSN: harmonization discussions Thanks, Judy. But now I have to ask an ignorant (but perhaps not stupid) question
Re: [RDA-L] JSC, ISBD, and ISSN: harmonization discussions
Thanks, Judy. But now I have to ask an ignorant (but perhaps not stupid) question: are the libraries that catalog directly in ISBD? I've seen cataloging rules that incorporate ISBD concepts, but I haven't ever encountered a library where ISBD is their cataloging rules. I'm wondering what the resulting records might look like. kc On 8/12/12 2:32 PM, JSC Secretary wrote: An announcement about the 2011 JSC, ISBD, and ISSN harmonization discussions has been posted on the JSC web site with an indication that some topics will be addressed at the November 2012 JSC meeting. http://www.rda-jsc.org/2011jscisbdissnoutcomes.html Regards, Judy Kuhagen JSC Secretary -- Karen Coyle kco...@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net ph: 1-510-540-7596 m: 1-510-435-8234 skype: kcoylenet
Re: [RDA-L] JSC, ISBD, and ISSN: harmonization discussions
Oops, that was are *there* libraries... On 8/12/12 4:43 PM, Karen Coyle wrote: Thanks, Judy. But now I have to ask an ignorant (but perhaps not stupid) question: are the libraries that catalog directly in ISBD? I've seen cataloging rules that incorporate ISBD concepts, but I haven't ever encountered a library where ISBD is their cataloging rules. I'm wondering what the resulting records might look like. kc On 8/12/12 2:32 PM, JSC Secretary wrote: An announcement about the 2011 JSC, ISBD, and ISSN harmonization discussions has been posted on the JSC web site with an indication that some topics will be addressed at the November 2012 JSC meeting. http://www.rda-jsc.org/2011jscisbdissnoutcomes.html Regards, Judy Kuhagen JSC Secretary -- Karen Coyle kco...@kcoyle.net http://kcoyle.net ph: 1-510-540-7596 m: 1-510-435-8234 skype: kcoylenet
