Re: [RDA-L] Use of brackets in RDA records
The RDA instructions say that you transcribe the form that's on the resource. Consider the various forms of name here: New York New York City New York, New York New York City, New York New York, N.Y. New York, NY These would all be correct in 264 $a, if they represented what appeared on the resources they were describing. The publication, etc. elements in RDA are not intended to contain standardized forms of name; they are intended to represent the information as found on the resources. There are other elements that contain standardized data (such as codes in the MARC fixed field, access points, etc.). Kevin M. Randall Principal Serials Cataloger Northwestern University Library k...@northwestern.edumailto:k...@northwestern.edu (847) 491-2939 Proudly wearing the sensible shoes since 1978! From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of MARILYN BOOK Sent: Wednesday, May 22, 2013 9:35 AM To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Use of brackets in RDA records Ok, that makes sense but now question about the $a below. Sometimes it seems in the examples that the State is short formed as in Ann Arbor, MI, sometimes it is spelled out as in Berkley, California, sometimes the State is omitted, in the two examples of Boca Raton, one has FL and one has nothing. London has UK and England in the examples below. Is there a prefered method?
Re: [RDA-L] Use of brackets in RDA records
Narilyn Book posted:
Ok, that makes sense but now question about the $a below. Sometimes it
seems in the examples that the State is short formed as in Ann Arbor, MI,
sometimes it is spelled out as in Berkley, California, sometimes the State
is omitted,
RDA has one transcribe what is there. Thus you get nothing (if not
there), the spelled out jurisdiction, an abbreviation, or a postal
code.
SLC follows the RDA option to supply jurisdiction in brackets if
lacking (which none of the examples seem to have done; many example
predate the addition of that option). SLC does not transcribe postal
codes (they are not unique), but rather supplies jurisdiction spelled
out.
__ __ J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
{__ | / Special Libraries Cataloguing HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
___} |__ \__
Re: [RDA-L] Use of brackets in RDA records
I apologize if this is a dumb question, but is there a concrete definition
for what a publisher is or does, or what constitutes the act of
publishing or publication?
The RDA Glossary states that a publisher is A person, family, or corporate
body responsible for publishing, releasing, or issuing a resource.
What is the difference between publishing, releasing, and issuing?
Also, RDA 2.8.1.1 (Publication Statements) states that all online resources
are to be considered published. To me, that implies that the act of
hosting a file or set of files on the Internet is one type of publishing.
For online resources then, is the server, domain owner, web administrator,
etc. to be considered?
One of the Oxford English Dictionary's definitions for publisher (I'm
looking at 2b) is A person or company whose business is the preparation
and issuing of printed or documentary material for distribution or sale,
acting as the agent of an author or owner; a person or company that
arranges the printing or manufacture of such items and their distribution
to booksellers or the public.
This makes sense to me in the context of normal monographs put out by
commercial publishers, but many government publications don't seem to use
this terminology. I'm thinking of documents which have a technical report
documentation page -- not sure that's what Cathy Crum was referring to.
Thanks,
Arthur
Arthur Liu
Library Technician
John A. Volpe National Transportation Systems Center
On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 5:16 PM, J. McRee Elrod m...@slc.bc.ca wrote:
Deborah, with whom until recently I always agreed, said:
If you decide a statement is a responsibility statement (often based on
layout) then remember that we do not 'guess' a publisher; we didn't under
AACR, and we still don't, under RDA. So you would enter the corporate body
as statement of responsibility, and you would have to enter [publisher not
identified].
Please, please, please don't do this. With the item in hand or on
screen, we are better able to determine data than the patron at the
catalogue. SLC has been guessing publisher for decades. Better to
pretend you are not guessing and just enter it, than to enter this
uninformative imprint.
Rules are meant to help inform patrons, not deny them information.
__ __ J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
{__ | / Special Libraries Cataloguing
HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/http://www.slc.bc.ca/
___} |__ \__
Re: [RDA-L] Use of brackets in RDA records
My reasoning is that there must *be* a reason why we *are* told to guess a
place and date, and not told to guess a publication, in both AACR and RDA.
So maybe we need to think through the purpose of the publication data.
If a resource is published, we always have a publication statement, of some
sort, indicating that the resource *is* published.
We have a place of publication (transcribed, supplied, or guessed) ,
indicating, if at all possible, where the resource was published, even if
only at the country level
We have a date of publication (transcribed, supplied, or guessed),
indicating, if at all possible when the resource was published, even if it
is a wild guess
We have a publisher's name (transcribed or supplied, or 'not identified'),
indicating what?
What is the function of Publisher Name data, if it is provided on the
resource or if we can supply it from another source?
Does the name of the publisher help us to identify the resource? Yes, if it
is on the resource, I think it does; if we supply it, then maybe not so
much.
Does the name of the publisher tell us something about the resource that
might help us to select one resource over another? Yes, sometimes, probably.
Does the name of the publisher help us to find the resource? It can help
copy catalogers to narrow a search to a specific publisher, it can help a
user who can only remember the subject and publisher; but in most cases, the
publisher must be on the resource for anyone to think about searching by the
name, I would think.
Do we provide this data so that we know who to order the resource from? In
that case we should find out whether that is actually true (in which case
the data is 'supplied'), rather than simply guessing.
If there is any indication on the resource or elsewhere that an issuing body
is also the publisher, then we are not guessing, we are supplying the
information. But if there is no indication of this, does guessing that a
responsibility statement also indicates publication actually tell the user
anything more than saying [publisher not identified] would? If so, what does
it tell the user?
And I agree with Arthur Liu's later message, suggesting that we need a
better definition of 'publisher', especially with all the different ways of
getting resources 'out there, available to the public', e.g., is something
like CreateSpace (https://www.createspace.com/) a publisher, distributer, or
what?
Deborah
- - - - - - - -
Deborah Fritz
TMQ, Inc.
debo...@marcofquality.com
www.marcofquality.com
-Original Message-
From: J. McRee Elrod [mailto:m...@slc.bc.ca]
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 5:16 PM
To: debo...@marcofquality.com
Cc: RDA-L@listserv.lac-bac.gc.ca
Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Use of brackets in RDA records
Deborah, with whom until recently I always agreed, said:
If you decide a statement is a responsibility statement (often based on
layout) then remember that we do not 'guess' a publisher; we didn't
under AACR, and we still don't, under RDA. So you would enter the
corporate body as statement of responsibility, and you would have to
enter [publisher not identified].
Please, please, please don't do this. With the item in hand or on screen,
we are better able to determine data than the patron at the catalogue. SLC
has been guessing publisher for decades. Better to pretend you are not
guessing and just enter it, than to enter this uninformative imprint.
Rules are meant to help inform patrons, not deny them information.
__ __ J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
{__ | / Special Libraries Cataloguing HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
___} |__ \__
Re: [RDA-L] Use of brackets in RDA records
There are no dumb questions, especially when it comes to RDA
On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 10:54 AM, Arthur Liu art@gmail.com wrote:
I apologize if this is a dumb question, but is there a concrete definition
for what a publisher is or does, or what constitutes the act of
publishing or publication?
The RDA Glossary states that a publisher is A person, family, or
corporate body responsible for publishing, releasing, or issuing a
resource.
What is the difference between publishing, releasing, and issuing?
Also, RDA 2.8.1.1 (Publication Statements) states that all online
resources are to be considered published. To me, that implies that the
act of hosting a file or set of files on the Internet is one type of
publishing. For online resources then, is the server, domain owner, web
administrator, etc. to be considered?
One of the Oxford English Dictionary's definitions for publisher (I'm
looking at 2b) is A person or company whose business is the preparation
and issuing of printed or documentary material for distribution or sale,
acting as the agent of an author or owner; a person or company that
arranges the printing or manufacture of such items and their distribution
to booksellers or the public.
This makes sense to me in the context of normal monographs put out by
commercial publishers, but many government publications don't seem to use
this terminology. I'm thinking of documents which have a technical report
documentation page -- not sure that's what Cathy Crum was referring to.
Thanks,
Arthur
Arthur Liu
Library Technician
John A. Volpe National Transportation Systems Center
On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 5:16 PM, J. McRee Elrod m...@slc.bc.ca wrote:
Deborah, with whom until recently I always agreed, said:
If you decide a statement is a responsibility statement (often based on
layout) then remember that we do not 'guess' a publisher; we didn't under
AACR, and we still don't, under RDA. So you would enter the corporate
body
as statement of responsibility, and you would have to enter [publisher
not
identified].
Please, please, please don't do this. With the item in hand or on
screen, we are better able to determine data than the patron at the
catalogue. SLC has been guessing publisher for decades. Better to
pretend you are not guessing and just enter it, than to enter this
uninformative imprint.
Rules are meant to help inform patrons, not deny them information.
__ __ J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
{__ | / Special Libraries Cataloguing
HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/http://www.slc.bc.ca/
___} |__ \__
--
Gene Fieg
Cataloger/Serials Librarian
Claremont School of Theology
gf...@cst.edu
Claremont School of Theology and Claremont Lincoln University do not
represent or endorse the accuracy or reliability of any of the information
or content contained in this forwarded email. The forwarded email is that
of the original sender and does not represent the views of Claremont School
of Theology or Claremont Lincoln University. It has been forwarded as a
courtesy for information only.
Re: [RDA-L] Use of brackets in RDA records
I have a question that applies to the publisher as well. If a book lists a publisher that is an imprint of another do you put the publisher, the main publisher or both. eg. Gallery Books is a division of Simon Schuster Inc. what do I use as the publisher? Thanks. “The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn. Alvin Toffler Marilyn Book Library Technician Delhi District Secondary School 393 James Street Delhi, Ontario N4B 2B6 Grand Erie Board of Education 519-582-0410 marilyn.b...@granderie.ca
Re: [RDA-L] Use of brackets in RDA records
According to RDA 2.8.1.4, you transcribe whatever appears on the source of information. If both the main publisher and the imprint appear, you transcribe both, unless you have chosen to follow the option that allows omitting levels in a corporate hierarchy that are not required to identify the publisher (LC has chosen not to follow that option). But if only the imprint appears on that source, you transcribe only the imprint. Jean Harden Music Catalog Librarian University of North Texas Denton, TX 76203 jean.har...@unt.edu From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of MARILYN BOOK Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 1:59 PM To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Use of brackets in RDA records I have a question that applies to the publisher as well. If a book lists a publisher that is an imprint of another do you put the publisher, the main publisher or both. eg. Gallery Books is a division of Simon Schuster Inc. what do I use as the publisher? Thanks. The illiterate of the 21st century will not be those who cannot read and write, but those who cannot learn, unlearn, and relearn. Alvin Toffler Marilyn Book Library Technician Delhi District Secondary School 393 James Street Delhi, Ontario N4B 2B6 Grand Erie Board of Education 519-582-0410 marilyn.b...@granderie.camailto:marilyn.b...@granderie.ca
Re: [RDA-L] Use of brackets in RDA records
If you are following the instructions under 19.2.1.1.1 to determine that the publisher is also the creator, and the publisher name comes from the resource itself in accordance with 19.1.1, I don't believe that you need square brackets. Steve McDonald steve.mcdon...@tufts.edu From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Crum, Cathy (KDLA) Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 9:20 AM To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA Subject: [RDA-L] Use of brackets in RDA records Hi all, I have a question concerning the use of brackets and supplied information in RDA records. I know that according to RDA 2.2.4, if you take information from outside the resource, you can enclose that information in square brackets, but what if the information is on the resource but is used for another RDA element? We catalog numerous publications from state government agencies in which we only have a statement of responsibility in the imprint area, but not publication information. In these cases, we might use the statement of responsibility to supply the publication information if we judge that the agency could also be considered the publisher of the resource. Would we bracket this information in the 264 because it is supplied even though it does not come from outside the resource? I know that this is similar to the situation of using of the copyright date to supply the publication date, but I would still like to hear thoughts on this topic. Thanks, Cathy Cathy Crum Cataloging Supervisor State Library Services Kentucky Department for Libraries and Archives (502) 564-8300, ext. 227 cathy.c...@ky.govmailto:cathy.c...@ky.gov
Re: [RDA-L] Use of brackets in RDA records
Cathy Crum posted:
We catalog numerous publications from state government agencies in which we=
only have a statement of responsibility in the imprint area,
If there is no imprint, then the cataloguer supplied the publisher; it
should be in brackets IMNSHO. While the document may have been
produced by one agency, it may have been published by a government
publications office; do you check the title page verso and colophon
for that information? Does one order it from the agency which produced
it, or from a central government document publishing agency?
As with much in RDA, interpretations will vary. I doubt any will do
264 1 for the producing agency, plus 264 2 or 3 for the distribution
or printing agency, but that would be an RDA possibility.
In this case, the cataloguer is assuming the producing agency is the
publisher, but doesn't *know* that.
__ __ J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
{__ | / Special Libraries Cataloguing HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
___} |__ \__
Re: [RDA-L] Use of brackets in RDA records
19.1.1 tells you the source of information when you are recording relationships (access points) for persons, families, and corporate bodies associated with a work, so I'm afraid that doesn't help us here. The source of information instructions for recording a corporate body as either a statement of responsibility (2.4.2.2) or a publisher (2.8.4.2) are found in Ch. 2. The real question here seems to me to be: if we have already recorded a corporate body once, as either a statement of responsibility (having determined the corporate body is the issuing body) or a publisher, then can we use the same statement again for another element? I remember a discussion (held some time ago) about 2.3.1.5 and name as part of the title and whether, if we enter a name as part of a title, we should repeat it as a statement of responsibility (since, unlike AACR, RDA does not say NOT to do so). I cannot find the discussion to quote from it directly, but the answer was that there is no special instruction in RDA about this because it is not needed, because if data has already been given as part of the title data, it cannot also be responsibility data. If this is a guiding principle (that we can only use a single statement for one purpose) and if you can only find one statement naming a corporate body, then I think you would have to decide whether the statement is naming the corporate body as issuing body or as publisher and give it accordingly. If you decide a statement is a responsibility statement (often based on layout) then remember that we do not 'guess' a publisher; we didn't under AACR, and we still don't, under RDA. So you would enter the corporate body as statement of responsibility, and you would have to enter [publisher not identified]. If you want to provide access via the corporate body, then do so and add a relationship designator as issuing body, but not as publisher. If you decide a statement is a publication statement (again, often based on layout) then enter the corporate body as Publisher Name, but not as Statement of Responsibility. If you want to provide access via the corporate body, then do so and you can add a relationship designator as publisher; but if you also want to add a relationship designator as issuing body, you then should record an Explanation of Relationship (32.2), in MARC in a 500 note. I know this sounds like convoluted reasoning (again!) but I think that it is important that we remember that we have never been allowed to guess a publisher, so if we don't *know* and cannot find out for *certain* who the publisher is, we should just happily admit it: [publisher not identified]; we should not guess that a distributer is also the publisher, or that a printer is also the publisher, or that the author is also the publisher-just enter them as they are stated and leave it at that. Deborah - - - - - - - - Deborah Fritz TMQ, Inc. mailto:debo...@marcofquality.com debo...@marcofquality.com http://www.marcofquality.com www.marcofquality.com From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of McDonald, Stephen Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 10:02 AM To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] Use of brackets in RDA records If you are following the instructions under 19.2.1.1.1 to determine that the publisher is also the creator, and the publisher name comes from the resource itself in accordance with 19.1.1, I don't believe that you need square brackets. Steve McDonald steve.mcdon...@tufts.edu From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [ mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Crum, Cathy (KDLA) Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 9:20 AM To: mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA Subject: [RDA-L] Use of brackets in RDA records Hi all, I have a question concerning the use of brackets and supplied information in RDA records. I know that according to RDA 2.2.4, if you take information from outside the resource, you can enclose that information in square brackets, but what if the information is on the resource but is used for another RDA element? We catalog numerous publications from state government agencies in which we only have a statement of responsibility in the imprint area, but not publication information. In these cases, we might use the statement of responsibility to supply the publication information if we judge that the agency could also be considered the publisher of the resource. Would we bracket this information in the 264 because it is supplied even though it does not come from outside the resource? I know that this is similar to the situation of using of the copyright date to supply the publication date, but I would still like to hear thoughts on this topic. Thanks, Cathy Cathy Crum Cataloging Supervisor State Library
Re: [RDA-L] Use of brackets in RDA records
Deborah, with whom until recently I always agreed, said:
If you decide a statement is a responsibility statement (often based on
layout) then remember that we do not 'guess' a publisher; we didn't under
AACR, and we still don't, under RDA. So you would enter the corporate body
as statement of responsibility, and you would have to enter [publisher not
identified].
Please, please, please don't do this. With the item in hand or on
screen, we are better able to determine data than the patron at the
catalogue. SLC has been guessing publisher for decades. Better to
pretend you are not guessing and just enter it, than to enter this
uninformative imprint.
Rules are meant to help inform patrons, not deny them information.
__ __ J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
{__ | / Special Libraries Cataloguing HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
___} |__ \__
