Re: [RDA-L] fictitious characters in RDA
Richard Moore wrote: >When time permits, it would be useful if LCSH authorities for fictitious characters could be cancelled, and re-established as RDA authorities in the name authority file. This would avoid having two separate authority records for the same entity, each using a different form as an access point. Same for real non-human entities (cat, dogs, horses). This is an important enough issue that time should be made early on to do as Richard suggests. Names may be / and often are coded as valid for subject use so there is no need to have two authority records for the same entity and having two is only asking for trouble. Mary L. Mastraccio ALA-ALCTS-CaMMS Past-Chair Cataloging & Authorities Manager MARCIVE, Inc. San Antonio, TX 78265 1-800-531-7678
Re: [RDA-L] fictitious characters in RDA
If we're voting, I've been lobbying for this since RDA was published, both for families and fictitious characters. It is against basic authority principles to have two different access points for the same entity. And I agree with Richard, the broader LCSH family name terms could certainly coexist with the more specific RDA family name authorized access points. Bob Robert L. Maxwell Head, Special Collections and Formats Catalog Dept. 6728 Harold B. Lee Library Brigham Young University Provo, UT 84602 (801)422-5568 "We should set an example for all the world, rather than confine ourselves to the course which has been heretofore pursued"--Eliza R. Snow, 1842. -Original Message- From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Wayne Richter Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2013 8:58 AM To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] fictitious characters in RDA Richard Moore said "I'd also like to see the same treatment for family names. RDA NARs are supposed to be for more specific family entities, and LCSH for more general, but works often have very specific family groupings as their subject, and there is no reason why general and specific authorities for families could not be established to RDA principles, and co-exist in LC/NAF." I would also very much like to see this adopted. Wayne Richter Asian Materials Specialist The Libraries Western Washington University Bellingham, WA 98225-9103 ALCTS CC:AAM
Re: [RDA-L] fictitious characters in RDA
Stephen McDonald said:
>If a fictitious character were established as a 100 in a Name
>Authority Record and you wished to use it as a subject, you would
>have to establish a 650 Subject Authority Record for the fictitious
>person.
I assume you mean a 150 subject authority.
I think this is ridiculous. An entity shouldn't be person Monday,
Wednesday, Friday, and a nonperson Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday. If
judged to be a person, always a person I think. a
A single 100 authority should be coded whether the name could be a 600
and 100/700, or only a 600.
SLC will follow the basic RDA instruction to treat fictitious persons as
persons, and will make mo exceptions. We see no great advantage in
this change, and refuse to spend time debating whether a person is a
person.
My old litmus of whether the person breathed or not no longer works.
__ __ J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
{__ | / Special Libraries Cataloguing HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
___} |__ \__
Re: [RDA-L] fictitious characters in RDA
Richard Moore said "I'd also like to see the same treatment for family names. RDA NARs are supposed to be for more specific family entities, and LCSH for more general, but works often have very specific family groupings as their subject, and there is no reason why general and specific authorities for families could not be established to RDA principles, and co-exist in LC/NAF." I would also very much like to see this adopted. Wayne Richter Asian Materials Specialist The Libraries Western Washington University Bellingham, WA 98225-9103 ALCTS CC:AAM
Re: [RDA-L] fictitious characters in RDA
If a fictitious character were established as a 100 in a Name Authority Record
and you wished to use it as a subject, you would have to establish a 650
Subject Authority Record for the fictitious person. This is explicitly stated
in the LC-PCC-PS, including an example for Jessica Fletcher as a 100 and a 650.
Steve McDonald
steve.mcdon...@tufts.edu
> -Original Message-
> From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access
> [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of J. McRee Elrod
> Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2013 12:06 AM
> To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA
> Subject: Re: [RDA-L] fictitious characters in RDA
>
> Judy said:
>
> >The 4th paragraph of RDA 9.0 indicates that the scope of *person* in
> >RDA includes "fictitious entities, such as literary figures, legendary
> >figures, ... if the fictitious entity's role is only as subject of the
> >resource, the RDA instructions do not apply.
>
>
> I find this exception impossible t apply. If the fictitious character is
> establihed
> as an RDA/MARC authority 100, how could you code the character as 650 in a
> particular bibliographic record? For one thing, would it verify?
>
> The factitious character's relation to one work might differ from that to
> another. Is the person to be coded differently in different records? Or is
> coding in all records controlled by the authority
> coding? What if a character's relationship is different for a
> publication after the authority is established>
>
> Seems to me if persons are to be treated as persons, it should be all the
> time, and all persons. I include Geronimo Chilton.
>
> Am I correct to assume God should now be 100/600 as opposed to 150/650?
>
>
>__ __ J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
> {__ | / Special Libraries Cataloguing HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
> ___} |__
> \__
Re: [RDA-L] fictitious characters in RDA
My understanding too. When time permits, it would be useful if LCSH authorities for fictitious characters could be cancelled, and re-established as RDA authorities in the name authority file. This would avoid having two separate authority records for the same entity, each using a different form as an access point. Same for real non-human entities (cat, dogs, horses). I'd also like to see the same treatment for family names. RDA NARs are supposed to be for more specific family entities, and LCSH for more general, but works often have very specific family groupings as their subject, and there is no reason why general and specific authorities for families could not be established to RDA principles, and co-exist in LC/NAF. Regards Richard _ Richard Moore Authority Control Team Manager The British Library Tel.: +44 (0)1937 546806 E-mail: richard.mo...@bl.uk -Original Message- From: Resource Description and Access / Resource Description and Access [mailto:RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA] On Behalf Of Adam L. Schiff Sent: 30 April 2013 20:59 To: RDA-L@LISTSERV.LAC-BAC.GC.CA Subject: Re: [RDA-L] fictitious characters in RDA As I understand LC policy, the 600 would not be correct and a fictitious character heading in LCSH would need to be used (or proposed through SACO). ^^ Adam L. Schiff Principal Cataloger University of Washington Libraries Box 352900 Seattle, WA 98195-2900 (206) 543-8409 (206) 685-8782 fax asch...@u.washington.edu http://faculty.washington.edu/~aschiff ~~ On Tue, 30 Apr 2013, Sarah Stein wrote: > Thank you! So, since this character is the illustrator then the 600 > and > 700 are correct. > Sarah > >>>> JSC Secretary 4/30/2013 1:41 PM >>> > Sarah, > > The 4th paragraph of RDA 9.0 indicates that the scope of person in RDA > includes "fictitious entities, such as literary figures, legendary > figures, etc." So, you follow the same instructions for the name of a > fictitious entity as you would for the name of any other person. The > context, however, must be that the fictitious entity is functioning in > a role as creator (ch. 19), contributor (ch. 20), etc.; if the > fictitious entity's role is only as subject of the resource, the RDA > instructions do not apply. > > Judy Kuhagen > JSC Secretary > > > On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 3:20 PM, Sarah Stein > > wrote: > > > Can anyone tell me where in the RDA Toolkit I can find instructions > for fictitious character? > oclc#730414273 > Professor Jonathan T. Buck's mysterious airship notebook :?bthe lost > step-by-step dirigible drawings from the pioneer of steampunk design > /?cby Keith Riegert & Samuel Kaplan ; illustrated by Jonathan Buck. > Jonathan Buck is not a real person which is clearly stated in this > authority file: > ARN9385436 > 010 no2013005992 ?z no2013005083 > 040 ICrlF ?b eng ?e rda ?c ICrlF ?d DLC > 046 ?f 18500917 > 1001 Buck, Jonathan T., ?d 1850- > 370 Baton Rouge, La. ?e South America > 372 Engineering > 374 Engineer ?a Illustrator > 375 male > 377 eng > 670 Riegert, Keith. Professor Jonathan T. Buck's mysterious airship > notebook, c2013: ?b t.p. (illustrated by Jonathan Buck) p. 3 (born Sept. > 17, 1850 in Baton Rouge, La.; death date unknown; American engineer, > riverboat captain, flight pioneer, and adventurer who invented the Air > Paddle Steamer steam-powered riverboat dirigible and disappeared while > on an expedition in South America) > 678 Professor Jonathan T. Buck is the fictitious American engineer and > adventurer who invented the steam-powered riverboat dirigible. > This AF does not have the statement that is found in some other > fictitious charactor as creator AFs e.g. ARN9436377 Richard Castle-- > 667 SUBJECT USAGE: This heading is not valid for use as a subject; use > a fictitious character heading from LCSH. > Does that mean that under RDA this is changed? The OCLC record has > both a 700 and 600 for Jonathan T. Buck. > I have not been able to find anything in the RDA Toolkit but perhaps I > am not searching effectively, I have just started using it. > Thanks for any help, > Sarah Stein > Sr. Special Collections Librarian > Technical Services - Cataloging > Denver Public Library > 10 W. 14th Avenue Parkway > Denver, Colorado, 80204-2731 USA > 720-865-1123 ( tel:720-865-1123 ) > sst...@denverlibrary.org > http://denverlibrary.org ( http://denverlibrary.org/ ) > > > ** Experience the British Library on
Re: [RDA-L] fictitious characters in RDA
Judy said:
>The 4th paragraph of RDA 9.0 indicates that the scope of *person* in RDA
>includes "fictitious entities, such as literary figures, legendary figures,
>... if the fictitious entity's role is only as subject of the resource,
>the RDA instructions do not apply.
I find this exception impossible t apply. If the fictitious character
is establihed as an RDA/MARC authority 100, how could you code the
character as 650 in a particular bibliographic record? For one thing,
would it verify?
The factitious character's relation to one work might differ from that
to another. Is the person to be coded differently in different
records? Or is coding in all records controlled by the authority
coding? What if a character's relationship is different for a
publication after the authority is established>
Seems to me if persons are to be treated as persons, it should be all
the time, and all persons. I include Geronimo Chilton.
Am I correct to assume God should now be 100/600 as opposed to 150/650?
__ __ J. McRee (Mac) Elrod (m...@slc.bc.ca)
{__ | / Special Libraries Cataloguing HTTP://www.slc.bc.ca/
___} |__ \__
Re: [RDA-L] fictitious characters in RDA
As I understand LC policy, the 600 would not be correct and a fictitious character heading in LCSH would need to be used (or proposed through SACO). ^^ Adam L. Schiff Principal Cataloger University of Washington Libraries Box 352900 Seattle, WA 98195-2900 (206) 543-8409 (206) 685-8782 fax asch...@u.washington.edu http://faculty.washington.edu/~aschiff ~~ On Tue, 30 Apr 2013, Sarah Stein wrote: Thank you! So, since this character is the illustrator then the 600 and 700 are correct. Sarah JSC Secretary 4/30/2013 1:41 PM >>> Sarah, The 4th paragraph of RDA 9.0 indicates that the scope of person in RDA includes "fictitious entities, such as literary figures, legendary figures, etc." So, you follow the same instructions for the name of a fictitious entity as you would for the name of any other person. The context, however, must be that the fictitious entity is functioning in a role as creator (ch. 19), contributor (ch. 20), etc.; if the fictitious entity's role is only as subject of the resource, the RDA instructions do not apply. Judy Kuhagen JSC Secretary On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 3:20 PM, Sarah Stein wrote: Can anyone tell me where in the RDA Toolkit I can find instructions for fictitious character? oclc#730414273 Professor Jonathan T. Buck's mysterious airship notebook :?bthe lost step-by-step dirigible drawings from the pioneer of steampunk design /?cby Keith Riegert & Samuel Kaplan ; illustrated by Jonathan Buck. Jonathan Buck is not a real person which is clearly stated in this authority file: ARN9385436 010 no2013005992 ?z no2013005083 040 ICrlF ?b eng ?e rda ?c ICrlF ?d DLC 046 ?f 18500917 1001 Buck, Jonathan T., ?d 1850- 370 Baton Rouge, La. ?e South America 372 Engineering 374 Engineer ?a Illustrator 375 male 377 eng 670 Riegert, Keith. Professor Jonathan T. Buck's mysterious airship notebook, c2013: ?b t.p. (illustrated by Jonathan Buck) p. 3 (born Sept. 17, 1850 in Baton Rouge, La.; death date unknown; American engineer, riverboat captain, flight pioneer, and adventurer who invented the Air Paddle Steamer steam-powered riverboat dirigible and disappeared while on an expedition in South America) 678 Professor Jonathan T. Buck is the fictitious American engineer and adventurer who invented the steam-powered riverboat dirigible. This AF does not have the statement that is found in some other fictitious charactor as creator AFs e.g. ARN9436377 Richard Castle-- 667 SUBJECT USAGE: This heading is not valid for use as a subject; use a fictitious character heading from LCSH. Does that mean that under RDA this is changed? The OCLC record has both a 700 and 600 for Jonathan T. Buck. I have not been able to find anything in the RDA Toolkit but perhaps I am not searching effectively, I have just started using it. Thanks for any help, Sarah Stein Sr. Special Collections Librarian Technical Services - Cataloging Denver Public Library 10 W. 14th Avenue Parkway Denver, Colorado, 80204-2731 USA 720-865-1123 ( tel:720-865-1123 ) sst...@denverlibrary.org http://denverlibrary.org ( http://denverlibrary.org/ )
Re: [RDA-L] fictitious characters in RDA
Thank you! So, since this character is the illustrator then the 600 and 700 are correct. Sarah >>> JSC Secretary 4/30/2013 1:41 PM >>> Sarah, The 4th paragraph of RDA 9.0 indicates that the scope of person in RDA includes "fictitious entities, such as literary figures, legendary figures, etc." So, you follow the same instructions for the name of a fictitious entity as you would for the name of any other person. The context, however, must be that the fictitious entity is functioning in a role as creator (ch. 19), contributor (ch. 20), etc.; if the fictitious entity's role is only as subject of the resource, the RDA instructions do not apply. Judy Kuhagen JSC Secretary On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 3:20 PM, Sarah Stein wrote: Can anyone tell me where in the RDA Toolkit I can find instructions for fictitious character? oclc#730414273 Professor Jonathan T. Buck's mysterious airship notebook :‡bthe lost step-by-step dirigible drawings from the pioneer of steampunk design /‡cby Keith Riegert & Samuel Kaplan ; illustrated by Jonathan Buck. Jonathan Buck is not a real person which is clearly stated in this authority file: ARN9385436 010 no2013005992 ǂz no2013005083 040 ICrlF ǂb eng ǂe rda ǂc ICrlF ǂd DLC 046 ǂf 18500917 1001 Buck, Jonathan T., ǂd 1850- 370 Baton Rouge, La. ǂe South America 372 Engineering 374 Engineer ǂa Illustrator 375 male 377 eng 670 Riegert, Keith. Professor Jonathan T. Buck's mysterious airship notebook, c2013: ǂb t.p. (illustrated by Jonathan Buck) p. 3 (born Sept. 17, 1850 in Baton Rouge, La.; death date unknown; American engineer, riverboat captain, flight pioneer, and adventurer who invented the Air Paddle Steamer steam-powered riverboat dirigible and disappeared while on an expedition in South America) 678 Professor Jonathan T. Buck is the fictitious American engineer and adventurer who invented the steam-powered riverboat dirigible. This AF does not have the statement that is found in some other fictitious charactor as creator AFs e.g. ARN9436377 Richard Castle-- 667 SUBJECT USAGE: This heading is not valid for use as a subject; use a fictitious character heading from LCSH. Does that mean that under RDA this is changed? The OCLC record has both a 700 and 600 for Jonathan T. Buck. I have not been able to find anything in the RDA Toolkit but perhaps I am not searching effectively, I have just started using it. Thanks for any help, Sarah Stein Sr. Special Collections Librarian Technical Services - Cataloging Denver Public Library 10 W. 14th Avenue Parkway Denver, Colorado, 80204-2731 USA 720-865-1123 ( tel:720-865-1123 ) sst...@denverlibrary.org http://denverlibrary.org ( http://denverlibrary.org/ )
Re: [RDA-L] fictitious characters in RDA
Sarah, The 4th paragraph of RDA 9.0 indicates that the scope of *person* in RDA includes "fictitious entities, such as literary figures, legendary figures, etc." So, you follow the same instructions for the name of a fictitious entity as you would for the name of any other person. The context, however, must be that the fictitious entity is functioning in a role as creator (ch. 19), contributor (ch. 20), etc.; if the fictitious entity's role is only as subject of the resource, the RDA instructions do not apply. Judy Kuhagen JSC Secretary On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 3:20 PM, Sarah Stein wrote: > Can anyone tell me where in the RDA Toolkit I can find instructions for > fictitious character? > oclc#730414273 > Professor Jonathan T. Buck's mysterious airship notebook :‡bthe lost > step-by-step dirigible drawings from the pioneer of steampunk design /‡cby > Keith Riegert & Samuel Kaplan ; illustrated by Jonathan Buck. > Jonathan Buck is not a real person which is clearly stated in this > authority file: > ARN9385436 > 010 no2013005992 ǂz no2013005083 > 040 ICrlF ǂb eng ǂe rda ǂc ICrlF ǂd DLC > 046 ǂf 18500917 > 1001 Buck, Jonathan T., ǂd 1850- > 370 Baton Rouge, La. ǂe South America > 372 Engineering > 374 Engineer ǂa Illustrator > 375 male > 377 eng > 670 Riegert, Keith. Professor Jonathan T. Buck's mysterious airship > notebook, c2013: ǂb t.p. (illustrated by Jonathan Buck) p. 3 (born Sept. > 17, 1850 in Baton Rouge, La.; death date unknown; American engineer, > riverboat captain, flight pioneer, and adventurer who invented the Air > Paddle Steamer steam-powered riverboat dirigible and disappeared while on > an expedition in South America) > 678 Professor Jonathan T. Buck is the fictitious American engineer and > adventurer who invented the steam-powered riverboat dirigible. > This AF does not have the statement that is found in some other fictitious > charactor as creator AFs e.g. ARN9436377 Richard Castle-- 667 SUBJECT > USAGE: This heading is not valid for use as a subject; use a fictitious > character heading from LCSH. > Does that mean that under RDA this is changed? The OCLC record has both a > 700 and 600 for Jonathan T. Buck. > > I have not been able to find anything in the RDA Toolkit but perhaps I am > not searching effectively, I have just started using it. > Thanks for any help, > > > Sarah Stein > Sr. Special Collections Librarian > Technical Services - Cataloging > Denver Public Library > 10 W. 14th Avenue Parkway > Denver, Colorado, 80204-2731 USA > 720-865-1123 > sst...@denverlibrary.org > http://denverlibrary.org >
