Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire
Dear Wind-Sun: The incident described on your forum is very Interesting and scary. It is impossible to make any definitive conclusions from the vague information provided, but here are a few things that got my attention: --If I could detect, from the before photos provided, a first rate installation, I would suspect defective modules. The before photo shows some very non-standard, low quality racking, obviously slapped together from hardware store angle stock. The angles are installed across the roof pitch, catching leaves and rain water. This makes me wonder how poorly the rest of the wiring could have been and suspect that poor workmanship may be to blame. --The homeowner claims the modules are un-stickered (no specifications, manufacturer or listing). The entire package begins to appear to be a real bargain basement system. The fact that this system caught fire seems to make sense. We replaced a module today that had heat damaged connection points. It appears one of my employees did not tighten a screw terminal on an old style module and the connections got hot. The J-box cover was melted. This module had been removed and reinstalled for a re-roof. I know stainless fasteners are not conducive to repeated loosening and re-tightening, so maybe the connector screw was galled and could not be tightened. properly. I have often predicted it is only a matter of time until our industry kills someone. My bet is on electrocution of a minor due to abraded PV cables. Maybe I'm wrong and it will be in a house fire. All I can say is that I am doing everything in my power to prevent it from being on one of my jobs and to spread the gospel of protected wiring. William Miller At 10:42 PM 2/10/2009, you wrote: In view of the recent discussion here about fires and PV systems, you might all want to take a look at this post that someone just posted on our forum http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/showthread.php?t=4524 I never heard of this happening before. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question
Some of the hot surface ignitors I have seen draw a lot of current, in the order of amps. I would expect the inverter to drop out if it were overloaded however. Also does the magnum drop voltage at very low loads? Where the furnace controls can not function due to low voltage or poor wave shape. Darryl --- On Wed, 2/11/09, boB Gudgel b...@midnitesolar.com wrote: From: boB Gudgel b...@midnitesolar.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 12:03 AM Peter Parrish wrote: As an old Ham Radio Operator, it would seem the solution is very simple. First, I assume that the voltage is compliant and so is the frequency. The problem is high frequency noise (hash from the switching circuitry) on the waveform that has not been filtered out. Figure out the switching frequency and get a low-pass filter whose cutoff is below the switching frequency but above 60 Hz. Make sure the filter is rated for the load, but since we’re taking about a burner control/igniter, we’re talking low-power, correct? LPFs are low-cost commodity items, probably in DigiKey or similar catalogs. - Peter This may be true about high frequency switching interfering with something, but I believe the problem with this ignitor is that it is a very poor design. Judging by what I read on their company forum, it doesn't look like they have a clue about this problem. Maybe you can go inside the Buderus and filter something there or maybe you can fine another product to try ? boB Peter T. Parrish, President California Solar Engineering, Inc. 820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065 Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885 CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26 peter.parr...@calsolareng.com *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *David Katz *Sent:* Monday, February 09, 2009 9:31 PM *To:* al...@positiveenergysolar.com; RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question Hi Allan, This is not an unusual problem. i have seen it with conventional forced air heating systems. The burner controls would not run on A Xantrex or Outback sine wave inverter. There is something about waveforms from inverters designed by Trace legacy engineers. I had to put in Exeltech or Studer inverters to operate the heating control system. you can do this and still run larger pumps and fans on the Magnum. David David Katz President AEE Solar 1155 Redway Drive P.O. Box 339 Redway, CA 95560 Tel (707) 825-1200 Fax (707) 825-1202 da...@aeesolar.com mailto:da...@aeesolar.com www.aeesolar.com http://www.aeesolar.com DISCLAIMER: This communication, along with any documents, files or attachments, is intended for the use of only the addressee and contains privileged and confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of any information contained in or attached to this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately by e-mail reply and destroy the original communication and its attachments without reading, printing or saving in any manner. P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. Allan Sindelar wrote: Wrenches, We have an unusual problem, and I need to know if anyone else has had this or a related problem, and what to do about it. This concerns a new off-grid residential system, very conventional: 1,800W PV, Midnite E-Panel with Magnum MS4448-AE inverter, MX60, 16 S-460s, installed summer 2008. This existing home is being extensively remodeled, and the home is not yet occupied. A local mechanical contractor installed a new infloor radiant (gypcrete) hydronic heating system using a Netherlands-made (German company) Buderus GB142 high-efficiency boiler. The problem is that the boiler won't start reliably on the inverter. It appears that the hot-surface igniter does not get full AC voltage (it runs on straight 120V AC, but is supplied through the boiler's control circuitry). We tested the igniter by disconnecting it and plugging it straight into inverter AC and it lit right up. The mechanical contractor has tried a replacement Buderus GB142 boiler with the same result. I was told that they brought out a generator and it also failed to ignite on generator AC, but not knowing the generator used or the way it was wired (I believe an extension cord to a portable) I don't put much weight on this data. They also took a Lochinvar Boiler to the site to test the theory that a different
Re: [RE-wrenches] anchoring racks to concrete roof
Jay - If it is a flat roof it seems like a ballasted system might be the way to go. What is the beam/truss configuration? -August August Goers Luminalt Energy Corporation From: jay peltz j...@asis.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 5:35:25 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] anchoring racks to concrete roof I've got a client with a foam core concrete covered roof. the concrete is 2.5 thick + over metal mesh over 6 ridged foam and then the same on the inside. What anchor choices are best to mount the feet to? Thanks in advance jay peltz power ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] anchoring racks to concrete roof
Hi Jay, not having any experience with these roofs (what a weird way to build a roof) if you're doing a flat or near flat mount, I'd look at the currrent issue of Solar professional magazine. lots on flat roof mounts. Ballasted is probably going to be your best bet. if a high tilt (hot water system? ) I'd recommend either core drilling thru the concrete/foam sandwich and bolting a pipe leg to the bar truss underneath. then have a roofer (roofer of record if you can find them) or a roofer with experience with that roofing system flash the pipe legs. I'm mostly hot water, and so deal with higher tilts and wind loads than most of you lucky PV guys. Karl jay peltz wrote: I've got a client with a foam core concrete covered roof. the concrete is 2.5 thick + over metal mesh over 6 ridged foam and then the same on the inside. What anchor choices are best to mount the feet to? Thanks in advance jay peltz power ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Karl Schwingel NABCEP Certified Solar Thermal Installer NorthWind Renewable Energy LLC PO Box 723 Stevens Point, WI 54481 k...@northwindre.com Cell: 715 209 0446 Fax : 715 952 4501 This e-mail message is confidential, is intended only for the named recipient(s) above, and may contain information that is privileged or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you have received this message in error, or are not a named recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender by return e-mail and delete this e-mail message from your computer. Thank you. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] anchoring racks to concrete roof
Hi Guys, This mount install is not on a flat roof, well a few hundred sq feet are, but mostly on some tilt. Also they do get hurricanes there, so not sure how well the ballasted work in that high of wind. As to the construction, not of my choice anyway. I've never see in here in the US but in MX or Baja at least its common. Quicker than standard blocks and lots of insulation in the middle. So I think I really looking at in concrete anchors, and am leaning towards epoxy style. Thanks, jay On Feb 11, 2009, at 6:11 AM, Karl Schwingel wrote: Hi Jay, not having any experience with these roofs (what a weird way to build a roof) if you're doing a flat or near flat mount, I'd look at the currrent issue of Solar professional magazine. lots on flat roof mounts. Ballasted is probably going to be your best bet. if a high tilt (hot water system? ) I'd recommend either core drilling thru the concrete/foam sandwich and bolting a pipe leg to the bar truss underneath. then have a roofer (roofer of record if you can find them) or a roofer with experience with that roofing system flash the pipe legs. I'm mostly hot water, and so deal with higher tilts and wind loads than most of you lucky PV guys. Karl ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question
I dont' know if you can power just the part this is giving problems and not the big load which is pumping? but had a similar problem with an SW trace. I installed a Exeltech inverter to power that load specifically and ever since has worked fine. The guys at Exeltech make a wave form that everything likes. Just a thought, jay peltz power On Feb 11, 2009, at 6:52 AM, Howie Michaelson wrote: I installed an off-grid system with identical symptoms: OB VFX 3648 dual stack Buderus GB142-24 Kohler 12 kW propane genny The boiler runs fine on the inverter power, but will occasionally error out (6A) and shut down while the generator is running (usually after it has been on for hours). The plumber installed an APC uninterruptable power supply/surge suppressor (not sure of the model) before the boiler, but when running on the internal inverter, the symptoms seemed to get worse. When running on just the surge suppressor portion, the symptoms were the same as if the APC wasn't in-line. We've checked the grounding at the genny, made sure the neutral was isolated except for the main panel, still the same problem. Seems this is a Buderus issue (or at least not an inverter one) - see: http://www.buderus.net/Support/TechnicalInfoForums/tabid/132/forumid/15/threadid/4334/scope/posts/Default.aspx I haven't been able to make the boiler run reliably when the genny is on, which is a problem in our climate, when the client goes away in the winter... Howie -- Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sun Catcher, LLC Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Wind Incentive Program Partner http://www.SunCatcherVT.com (cell) 802-272-0004 (home) 802-439-6096 On Wed, February 11, 2009 7:47 am, Darryl Thayer wrote: Some of the hot surface ignitors I have seen draw a lot of current, in the order of amps. I would expect the inverter to drop out if it were overloaded however. Also does the magnum drop voltage at very low loads? Where the furnace controls can not function due to low voltage or poor wave shape. Darryl This may be true about high frequency switching interfering with something, but I believe the problem with this ignitor is that it is a very poor design. Judging by what I read on their company forum, it doesn't look like they have a clue about this problem. Maybe you can go inside the Buderus and filter something there or maybe you can fine another product to try ? boB ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] anchoring racks to concrete roof
I will Third the motion for a ballasted system in this case. On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 6:35 PM, jay peltz j...@asis.com wrote: I've got a client with a foam core concrete covered roof. the concrete is 2.5 thick + over metal mesh over 6 ridged foam and then the same on the inside. What anchor choices are best to mount the feet to? Thanks in advance jay peltz power ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Jason Lombard Open Hand Solar LLC. Certified Sustainable Building Adviser www.openhandsolar.com 505 795 8646 I'd put my money on solar energy… I hope we don't have to wait 'til oil and coal run out before we tackle that. —Thomas Edison ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question
A few years back, we had a customer who was having similar problems. I don't recall if it was a Buderus boiler, but the generator was a Generac. This was a simple generator backup system. We were able to get the boiler to work reliably after adjusting the governor on the generator so that it ran at 60Hz under load. As I recall, it would then drift above 60Hz when unloaded. If you were to try a UPS, it would need to be a dual-conversion type to make a difference, otherwise it would just pass the generator power straight through. True dual-conversion UPS units are very expensive... Probably costing more than the cheap generator in many cases. -Hans -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Howie Michaelson Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 6:52 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question I installed an off-grid system with identical symptoms: OB VFX 3648 dual stack Buderus GB142-24 Kohler 12 kW propane genny The boiler runs fine on the inverter power, but will occasionally error out (6A) and shut down while the generator is running (usually after it has been on for hours). The plumber installed an APC uninterruptable power supply/surge suppressor (not sure of the model) before the boiler, but when running on the internal inverter, the symptoms seemed to get worse. When running on just the surge suppressor portion, the symptoms were the same as if the APC wasn't in-line. We've checked the grounding at the genny, made sure the neutral was isolated except for the main panel, still the same problem. Seems this is a Buderus issue (or at least not an inverter one) - see: http://www.buderus.net/Support/TechnicalInfoForums/tabid/132/forumid/15/thre adid/4334/scope/posts/Default.aspx I haven't been able to make the boiler run reliably when the genny is on, which is a problem in our climate, when the client goes away in the winter... Howie -- Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV InstallerT Sun Catcher, LLC Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Wind Incentive Program Partner http://www.SunCatcherVT.com (cell) 802-272-0004 (home) 802-439-6096 On Wed, February 11, 2009 7:47 am, Darryl Thayer wrote: Some of the hot surface ignitors I have seen draw a lot of current, in the order of amps. I would expect the inverter to drop out if it were overloaded however. Also does the magnum drop voltage at very low loads? Where the furnace controls can not function due to low voltage or poor wave shape. Darryl This may be true about high frequency switching interfering with something, but I believe the problem with this ignitor is that it is a very poor design. Judging by what I read on their company forum, it doesn't look like they have a clue about this problem. Maybe you can go inside the Buderus and filter something there or maybe you can fine another product to try ? boB ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire
Wrenches, Thanks to the wind-sun folks for sharing this fire story. There is a lot of conjecture in the thread, and much of it is wrong. With all due respect to Solar-Guppy, PV module encapsulant, EVA, is highly flammable, and tedlar will burn as well. The good news is that there is not a lot of fuel in the module. However, coupled with other fuels, there may be a problem. John Wiles and UL are advocating arc-fault detectors for PV arrays. It's pretty clear that this fire would have started with an arcing fault. My first impression is that these are not listed modules and therefore have not been tested for maximum voltage. The maximum voltage tests are very stringent and just from a picture of the construction, these modules would be very unlikely to pass the test. Many comments were made as to the substandard structure-that is obvious. Just because several people on the list have not seen this happen before, poorly manufactured modules can, and will do this. Even some of the best manufacturers in the world have screwed up on their construction and had fires. Without a NRTL (Nationally Recognized Testing Lab) involved in the process, there is no basic understanding of the safety of a product. Anyone who entertains the idea of installing non-listed modules at higher voltages, as may be the case with this fire, should just post these pictures on their office wall. There is no way that the money this installer saved by buying substandard product could be worth this danger. On Friday UL will be testing to see if PV modules can reduce the fire rating of class A roofing. I don't think it will, but let's hope not. These pictures will be inspiration for the day's testing. Bill. From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:57 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire Dear Wind-Sun: The incident described on your forum is very Interesting and scary. It is impossible to make any definitive conclusions from the vague information provided, but here are a few things that got my attention: --If I could detect, from the before photos provided, a first rate installation, I would suspect defective modules. The before photo shows some very non-standard, low quality racking, obviously slapped together from hardware store angle stock. The angles are installed across the roof pitch, catching leaves and rain water. This makes me wonder how poorly the rest of the wiring could have been and suspect that poor workmanship may be to blame. --The homeowner claims the modules are un-stickered (no specifications, manufacturer or listing). The entire package begins to appear to be a real bargain basement system. The fact that this system caught fire seems to make sense. We replaced a module today that had heat damaged connection points. It appears one of my employees did not tighten a screw terminal on an old style module and the connections got hot. The J-box cover was melted. This module had been removed and reinstalled for a re-roof. I know stainless fasteners are not conducive to repeated loosening and re-tightening, so maybe the connector screw was galled and could not be tightened. properly. I have often predicted it is only a matter of time until our industry kills someone. My bet is on electrocution of a minor due to abraded PV cables. Maybe I'm wrong and it will be in a house fire. All I can say is that I am doing everything in my power to prevent it from being on one of my jobs and to spread the gospel of protected wiring. William Miller At 10:42 PM 2/10/2009, you wrote: In view of the recent discussion here about fires and PV systems, you might all want to take a look at this post that someone just posted on our forum http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/showthread.php?t=4524 I never heard of this happening before. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire
Wrenches, After looking more closely at the pictures, it appears that they may not be glass-covered modules. Given the poor manufacturing practices, this was a fire waiting to happen the moment they turned it on. The amazing thing is that the installer is going to reinstall the module-and burn the house down this time. Notice the fire made it through the roofing in the middle. Bill. From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:57 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire Dear Wind-Sun: The incident described on your forum is very Interesting and scary. It is impossible to make any definitive conclusions from the vague information provided, but here are a few things that got my attention: --If I could detect, from the before photos provided, a first rate installation, I would suspect defective modules. The before photo shows some very non-standard, low quality racking, obviously slapped together from hardware store angle stock. The angles are installed across the roof pitch, catching leaves and rain water. This makes me wonder how poorly the rest of the wiring could have been and suspect that poor workmanship may be to blame. --The homeowner claims the modules are un-stickered (no specifications, manufacturer or listing). The entire package begins to appear to be a real bargain basement system. The fact that this system caught fire seems to make sense. We replaced a module today that had heat damaged connection points. It appears one of my employees did not tighten a screw terminal on an old style module and the connections got hot. The J-box cover was melted. This module had been removed and reinstalled for a re-roof. I know stainless fasteners are not conducive to repeated loosening and re-tightening, so maybe the connector screw was galled and could not be tightened. properly. I have often predicted it is only a matter of time until our industry kills someone. My bet is on electrocution of a minor due to abraded PV cables. Maybe I'm wrong and it will be in a house fire. All I can say is that I am doing everything in my power to prevent it from being on one of my jobs and to spread the gospel of protected wiring. William Miller At 10:42 PM 2/10/2009, you wrote: In view of the recent discussion here about fires and PV systems, you might all want to take a look at this post that someone just posted on our forum http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/showthread.php?t=4524 I never heard of this happening before. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire
At the very least, it shows a good reason to not use any of those off-brand (or no brand) cheap unlisted panels that have been floating around lately. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun .. - Original Message - From: Drake Chamberlin drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 8:48 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire The last post on your discussion forum, from the person identified as BB, looks the most likely. The modules were large (250 W), corner mounted, with plastic (instead of glass) glazing. The panels were able to flex under wind load, and damage the internal conductors. It looks to me from the before photo, that the modules are already bowed a bit. That could be an optical illusion. That the glazing was plastic is evidenced by the fact that it burned up. If the material was glass, it would not have disintegrated the way it did. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] anchoring racks to concrete roof
Hi Jay I have experience with similar structures. Is this a Monolithic Dome? Key Dome? In any case, with 2.5 of concrete, it almost certainly has welded wire or rebar or both embedded, so you have lots of strength. Just need to get lucky when you drill holes to miss the metal. No need to go deeper than 2, if the previous is so. You're on the right track with epoxy filled so you maintain water tightness. What is the coating on the exterior concrete? Ken at commonwealthsolar.com - Original Message - From: jay peltz j...@asis.com To: k...@northwindre.com; RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 10:36 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] anchoring racks to concrete roof Hi Guys, This mount install is not on a flat roof, well a few hundred sq feet are, but mostly on some tilt. Also they do get hurricanes there, so not sure how well the ballasted work in that high of wind. As to the construction, not of my choice anyway. I've never see in here in the US but in MX or Baja at least its common. Quicker than standard blocks and lots of insulation in the middle. So I think I really looking at in concrete anchors, and am leaning towards epoxy style. Thanks, jay On Feb 11, 2009, at 6:11 AM, Karl Schwingel wrote: Hi Jay, not having any experience with these roofs (what a weird way to build a roof) if you're doing a flat or near flat mount, I'd look at the currrent issue of Solar professional magazine. lots on flat roof mounts. Ballasted is probably going to be your best bet. if a high tilt (hot water system? ) I'd recommend either core drilling thru the concrete/foam sandwich and bolting a pipe leg to the bar truss underneath. then have a roofer (roofer of record if you can find them) or a roofer with experience with that roofing system flash the pipe legs. I'm mostly hot water, and so deal with higher tilts and wind loads than most of you lucky PV guys. Karl ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire
Yeah, spooky pictures. Certainly that was non-glass glazing. I can make out a way too unsecured wire at the top left of the array but that might have been secured before the conflagration event. Could these panels have been home made by someone in their garage? I regularly loose cells for sale on E-Bay and in the back of home power. Someone's buying them. Travis Creswell Ozark Energy Services -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Wind-sun.com Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:03 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire At the very least, it shows a good reason to not use any of those off-brand (or no brand) cheap unlisted panels that have been floating around lately. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun .. - Original Message - From: Drake Chamberlin drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 8:48 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire The last post on your discussion forum, from the person identified as BB, looks the most likely. The modules were large (250 W), corner mounted, with plastic (instead of glass) glazing. The panels were able to flex under wind load, and damage the internal conductors. It looks to me from the before photo, that the modules are already bowed a bit. That could be an optical illusion. That the glazing was plastic is evidenced by the fact that it burned up. If the material was glass, it would not have disintegrated the way it did. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.20/1943 - Release Date: 2/10/2009 7:20 AM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.10.20/1943 - Release Date: 2/10/2009 7:20 AM ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4448AE Compatibility Question
Wrenches, Thank you to you Wrenches who have responded. Keep them coming; I'm collating all as part of our customer support on this. We have several ideas to try out. Darryl, it's not excessive draw. I had a Kill-a-Watt on the AC input during on-site testing. I saw a momentary peak of 360W (for all, including AC pumps). The observed draw sequence was 205W for the purge blower, followed by 270 for the igniter for about 5 seconds, dropping to 220-230W upon ignition. Later, the hydronic distributor's rep turned down the sidearm circulator pump from high to low setting and reduced this pump draw by about 45-50 watts. AC voltage during testing bounced around in the range of 117-123VAC, but the fluctuation was not load-based. At this point Magnum has stepped up to support us; we'll see where this goes and how it (hopefully) resolves. Magnum has suggested a 50 microfarad capacitor, per Peter's suggestion. They have also contacted the wholesale distributor for Buderus boilers for New Mexico, and I believe the plan is to ship the boiler to Magnum for testing. I may have further questions for the list, and I'll eventually post how all this resolves. Allan at Positive Energy -Original Message- From: re-wrenches- On Behalf Of Darryl Thayer Some of the hot surface ignitors I have seen draw a lot of current, in the order of amps. I would expect the inverter to drop out if it were overloaded however. Also does the magnum drop voltage at very low loads? Where the furnace controls can not function due to low voltage or poor wave shape. Darryl --- On Wed, 2/11/09, boB Gudgel b...@midnitesolar.com wrote: Peter Parrish wrote: As an old Ham Radio Operator, it would seem the solution is very simple. First, I assume that the voltage is compliant and so is the frequency. The problem is high frequency noise (hash from the switching circuitry) on the waveform that has not been filtered out. Figure out the switching frequency and get a low-pass filter whose cutoff is below the switching frequency but above 60 Hz. Make sure the filter is rated for the load, but since we're taking about a burner control/igniter, we're talking low-power, correct? LPFs are low-cost commodity items, probably in DigiKey or similar catalogs. - Peter This may be true about high frequency switching interfering with something, but I believe the problem with this ignitor is that it is a very poor design. Judging by what I read on their company forum, it doesn't look like they have a clue about this problem. Maybe you can go inside the Buderus and filter something there or maybe you can fine another product to try ? boB *From:* *David Katz Hi Allan, This is not an unusual problem. i have seen it with conventional forced air heating systems. The burner controls would not run on A Xantrex or Outback sine wave inverter. There is something about waveforms from inverters designed by Trace legacy engineers. I had to put in Exeltech or Studer inverters to operate the heating control system. you can do this and still run larger pumps and fans on the Magnum. David ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] inverter search
Any recommendations for a grid-tie battery-less inverter that can handle a DC voltage as low as 100V? thanks, marco Marco Mangelsdorf, Ph.D., President Electrical Contractor License C-26351 69 Railroad Avenue, Suite A-7 Hilo, Hawaii 96720 USA (808) 969-3281, fax 934-7462 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire
One detail I haven't heard mentioned yet and am curious about - the photo of the fire damage appears to show the corner of another west(?)-facing array. I find it curious that the system owner described a 2 kW system made up of eight 250W(!) modules, which are clearly visible in the topmost system photo. There's just a whole lot that doesn't jive in this whole story. Scary to me. Allan at + NRG -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks Wrenches, After looking more closely at the pictures, it appears that they may not be glass-covered modules. Given the poor manufacturing practices, this was a fire waiting to happen the moment they turned it on. The amazing thing is that the installer is going to reinstall the module-and burn the house down this time. Notice the fire made it through the roofing in the middle. Bill. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] inverter search
SB700 comes close. PV Powered's 1100 comes closer, as does the Kaco 1501xi. Beyond that, Outback GTFX with batteries or Enphase. Allan -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco Any recommendations for a grid-tie battery-less inverter that can handle a DC voltage as low as 100V? thanks, marco ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] inverter search
Marco, Is 100V the absolute floor, or is it the normal operating voltage. I believe the Power-One inverter can go down to 90V. Bill. -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 12:37 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] inverter search Any recommendations for a grid-tie battery-less inverter that can handle a DC voltage as low as 100V? thanks, marco Marco Mangelsdorf, Ph.D., President Electrical Contractor License C-26351 69 Railroad Avenue, Suite A-7 Hilo, Hawaii 96720 USA (808) 969-3281, fax 934-7462 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire
I may be very wrong here and I don’t mean to impugn anyone’s integrity, but
don’t forget that in this era of digital animation movies you can’t always
believe what you see in a photo either. (I'm sure no one here has ever
Photoshopped a photo to make it more presentable looking.) I couldn't help but
notice that the bottom right corner of the photo was surprisingly blurry
and indistinct. It is difficult to distinguish one thing from the next, when
just a few feet away but out of the range of detail in the photo, things seemed
to be much clearer. I’ve never seen a photo look like that in reality. It’s
as if the roof and array have mysteriously melted together. Also, I have never
seen tempered glass melt in a low temperature fire. If it were a high
temperature fire the roof would not have survived. I think that a great deal
of caution is warranted especially considering the lack of detail that the
poster is giving
about the panels, location, installer/supplier, existence of another array etc.
--- On Wed, 2/11/09, Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com wrote:
From: Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire
To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 12:57 PM
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One detail I haven't heard mentioned yet and am curious about - the photo of
the fire damage appears to show the corner of another west(?)-facing array. I
find it curious that the system owner described a 2 kW system made up of eight
250W(!) modules, which are clearly visible in the topmost system photo.
There's just a whole lot that doesn't jive in this whole story. Scary to me.
Allan at + NRG
-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bill Brooks
Wrenches,
After looking more closely at the pictures, it appears that they may not be
glass-covered modules. Given the poor manufacturing practices, this was a fire
waiting to happen the moment they turned it on.
The amazing thing is that the installer is going to reinstall the module—and
burn the house down this time. Notice the fire made it through the roofing in
the middle.
Bill.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire
This seems corroborating. It has GOT to be the same situation: http://www.examiner.com/x-432-Wedding-and-Marriage-Examiner~y2009m2d10-Our-wedding-anniversary-like-a-house-on-fire-literally Search the page for solar to get to the crux of it, and . P.S. Tempered glass won't melt, but clear plastic goop poured over the top of silicon cells (which can be seen littering the roof) will melt. These are probably homemade modules. What I see on the charred roof is consistent with plastic encapsulated modules burning and melting. Also, the racking is consistent with the first pre-fire photo. These poor folks really got taken to the cleaners by their installer which MUST BE STOPPED. Brian Sipp wrote at 06:17 PM 2/11/2009: I may be very wrong here and I donât mean to impugn anyoneâs integrity, but donât forget that in this era of digital animation movies you canât always believe what you see in a photo either. (I'm sure no one here has ever Photoshopped a photo to make it more presentable looking.) I couldn't help but notice that the bottom right corner of the photo was surprisingly blurry and indistinct. It is difficult to distinguish one thing from the next, when just a few feet away but out of the range of detail in the photo, things seemed to be much clearer. Iâve never seen a photo look like that in reality. Itâs as if the roof and array have mysteriously melted together. Also, I have never seen tempered glass melt in a low temperature fire. If it were a high temperature fire the roof would not have survived. I think that a great deal of caution is warranted especially considering the lack of detail that the poster is giving about the panels, location, installer/supplier, existence of another array etc. --- On Wed, 2/11/09, Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com wrote: From: Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 12:57 PM One detail I haven't heard mentioned yet and am curious about - the photo of the fire damage appears to show the corner of another west(?)-facing array. I find it curious that the system owner described a 2 kW system made up of eight 250W(!) modules, which are clearly visible in the topmost system photo. There's just a whole lot that doesn't jive in this whole story. Scary to me. Allan at + NRG ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire
Amazing how this ' stuff ' just bounces around--Note the ' for more info' box at the bottom of the examiner article. It's the Fire Link.com story wrenches discussed last week--- Ken - Original Message - From: Michael Welch To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 9:48 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire This seems corroborating. It has GOT to be the same situation: http://www.examiner.com/x-432-Wedding-and-Marriage-Examiner~y2009m2d10-Our-wedding-anniversary-like-a-house-on-fire-literally Search the page for solar to get to the crux of it, and . P.S. Tempered glass won't melt, but clear plastic goop poured over the top of silicon cells (which can be seen littering the roof) will melt. These are probably homemade modules. What I see on the charred roof is consistent with plastic encapsulated modules burning and melting. Also, the racking is consistent with the first pre-fire photo. These poor folks really got taken to the cleaners by their installer which MUST BE STOPPED. Brian Sipp wrote at 06:17 PM 2/11/2009: I may be very wrong here and I donâ?Tt mean to impugn anyoneâ?Ts integrity, but donâ?Tt forget that in this era of digital animation movies you canâ?Tt always believe what you see in a photo either. (I'm sure no one here has ever Photoshopped a photo to make it more presentable looking.) I couldn't help but notice that the bottom right corner of the photo was surprisingly blurry and indistinct. It is difficult to distinguish one thing from the next, when just a few feet away but out of the range of detail in the photo, things seemed to be much clearer. Iâ?Tve never seen a photo look like that in reality. Itâ?Ts as if the roof and array have mysteriously melted together. Also, I have never seen tempered glass melt in a low temperature fire. If it were a high temperature fire the roof would not have survived. I think that a great deal of caution is warranted especially considering the lack of detail that the poster is giving about the panels, location, installer/supplier, existence of another array etc. --- On Wed, 2/11/09, Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com wrote: From: Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 12:57 PM One detail I haven't heard mentioned yet and am curious about - the photo of the fire damage appears to show the corner of another west(?)-facing array. I find it curious that the system owner described a 2 kW system made up of eight 250W(!) modules, which are clearly visible in the topmost system photo. There's just a whole lot that doesn't jive in this whole story. Scary to me. Allan at + NRG -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire
Michael - it gets worse - if you look at the bottom of the website with the story about them having to leave Disneyland to run back to there house which was on fire - there are some links to related items: For more info: Screamin' is right: my favorite ride at the park Traditional anniversary gift list: Firefighter safety and solar panels http://www.firelink.com/training/articles/5689-the-dangers-of-solar-pan els-for-firefighters The third one brings up a copy of the infamous article by Chad Bozoski... A!!! http://www.firelink.com/training/articles/5689-the-dangers-of-solar-pane ls-for-firefighters Christopher MESSAGE CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message (including attachments) is covered by the Electronic Communication Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. sections 2510-2521, is confidential, and may also be protected by attorney-client or other privilege. If you believe that it has been sent to you in error, please do not read it. If you are not the intended recipient,you are hereby notified that any retention, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. Please reply to the sender that you have received the message in error, then delete it. Thank you. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] SEIA stuff
Please send it to me too. Muchos gracias, Peter Peter T. Parrish, President California Solar Engineering, Inc. 820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065 Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885 CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26 peter.parr...@calsolareng.com -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 4:31 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] SEIA stuff Anyone have a copy of the newest SEIA tax guide that they could send me, por favor? thank you, marco Marco Mangelsdorf, Ph.D., President Electrical Contractor License C-26351 69 Railroad Avenue, Suite A-7 Hilo, Hawaii 96720 USA (808) 969-3281, fax 934-7462 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire
You have probably never looked close at many photos. I think there is a danger of getting paranoid here and ascribing some deep conspiracy to the simple fact of some non-spec or even non-legal panels burning up. It is known as depth of field, and is familiar to anyone photographer that has gotten past the casual snapshot phase. http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/depth-of-field.htm Shows exactly the same effect. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. - Original Message - From: Brian Sipp To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 7:17 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Panel Fire I may be very wrong here and I don’t mean to impugn anyone’s integrity, but don’t forget that in this era of digital animation movies you can’t always believe what you see in a photo either. (I'm sure no one here has ever Photoshopped a photo to make it more presentable looking.) I couldn't help but notice that the bottom right corner of the photo was surprisingly blurry and indistinct. It is difficult to distinguish one thing from the next, when just a few feet away but out of the range of detail in the photo, things seemed to be much clearer. I’ve never seen a photo look like that in reality. It’s as if the roof and array have mysteriously melted together. snip ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] another firefighter mis-information link (was: Panel Fire)
On 2/11/09 6:48 PM, Michael Welch wrote: This seems corroborating. It has GOT to be the same situation: http://www.examiner.com/x-432-Wedding-and-Marriage-Examiner~y2009m2d10-Our-wedding-anniversary-like-a-house-on-fire-literally http://www.examiner.com/x-432-Wedding-and-Marriage-Examiner%7Ey2009m2d10-Our-wedding-anniversary-like-a-house-on-fire-literallySearch the page for solar to get to the crux of it Did anyone else catch the link on that page to http://www.firelink.com/training/articles/5689-the-dangers-of-solar-panels-for-firefighters ? ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Wrenches attending AEE Dealer Conference?
I'll be teaching Thursday afternoon and Friday morning. See you there. Bill. -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of David Palumbo Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 7:51 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Wrenches attending AEE Dealer Conference? Anyone else attending the AEE dealer conference next week in Mesa, AZ? David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 NABCEP Certified PV Installer www.independentpowerllc.com 802-888-7194 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] FW: Panel Fire
Re: [RE-wrenches] FW: Panel FireA new term for bargain basement modules? .. - Original Message - From: David Brearley To: al...@positiveenergysolar.com ; RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 11:57 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] FW: Panel Fire each 250 W mystery module ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] FW: Panel Fire
Allan, there are 4 modules pictured in the ³before² photo, not 8. The after photo show the ³good² modules, the ones that did not burn. This suggests there are 4 module each on two separate roof faces. Please have another look at the before picture and count the frames. In the before picture each 250 W mystery module is supported at 4 corners only. They are some sort of large format modules. Nothing I can find online matches these characteristics, especially the superstrate material. Please re-read the homeowner¹s account in these various postings as well. Sundiego indicates that the module superstrate is not glass, but some other material. Apparently it is a material that melts when exposed to flame. It sure isn¹t glass, that¹s pretty clear by the photos and the written account. This does not look like an elaborate hoax to me. It does look, as BB points out, like a potential crime scene, a fraud at the very least. Something was misrepresented to this customer. It¹s pretty apparent that these modules are not listed and identified for the application. The installation isn¹t vaguely appropriate. It¹s just dumb luckliterallythat the house didn¹t burn down. Clearly the narrator is unreliable, but I don¹t think it is malicious, just ignorance. The dude¹s a ³solar newbie² and his house caught on fire. That¹s what it looks like to me. David On 2/11/09 6:57 PM, Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com wrote: I guess I'm not the only one who's suspicious of this whole story. This came to me off list. Some of the post here doesn't jive - it's pretty clear there's no glass, and the blurry corner doesn't look it to me. -Original Message- From: I may be very wrong here and I don¹t mean to impugn anyone¹s integrity but don¹t forget that in this era of digital animation movies you can¹t always believe what you see in photo either. (I'm sure no one here has ever Photoshopped a photo to make it more presentable looking.) I couldn't help but notice that the bottom right corner of the photo was surprisingly blurry and indistinct. It is difficult to distinguish one thing from the next, when just a few feet away but out of the range of detail in the photo, things seemed to be much clearer. I¹ve never seen a photo look like that in reality. It¹s as if the roof and array have mysteriously melted together. Also, I have never seen tempered glass melt in a low temperature fire. If it were a high temperature fire the roof would not have survived. I think that a great deal of caution is warranted especially considering the lack of detail that the poster is giving about the panels, location, installer/supplier, existence of another array etc. --- On Wed, 2/11/09, Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com wrote: One detail I haven't heard mentioned yet and am curious about - the photo of the fire damage appears to show the corner of another west(?)-facing array. I find it curious that the system owner described a 2 kW system made up of eight 250W(!) modules, which are clearly visible in the topmost system photo. There's just a whole lot that doesn't jive in this whole story. Scary to me . ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
