Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM80 problems

[Darren Emmons]

Title: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM80 problems




Larry,

On the RV was a modified sine wave or a SW inverter installed ?

Darren Emmons
Outback Power

Christopher Freitas wrote:

  
  
  

  I don't know the answer but I have forwarded this
question to Darren Emmons (the FM80 software engineer) to have him
reply. I am travelling internationally right now and may not have email
access for a few days.
  
The auto restart mode should not need to changed - I haven't seen a
situation like you describe but I suspect its just an issue of the
setting and probably the small battery size used in this RV application.
  
Christopher Freitas
OutBack Power
  
  
  
  
Christopher
  
  
- Original Message -
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org

To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Fri Mar 27 16:44:59 2009
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback FM80 problems
  
Wrenches,
  
Last week I had an FM80 that would operate in bulk mode while reducing 
the current to a few amps on a 1200 watt RV system. The customer said 
he had to reset the controller several times through the day. After 
every reset, full amperage was delivered and the controller would 
eventually transition to absorb and float. I replaced the controller 
from stock and put it on the bench. It works just fine with no other 
equipment attached to the battery.
  
My question is about the auto restart mode. Default is 0. Should Mode 
0 continue to track the Vmp thru the day or must one use mode 1 and 
force restarts? The MX60 had a Sweep Interval that could be programmed 
for every few minutes. Has this been replaced by the Auto Restart Mode?
  
Larry
  
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Trace SW Stacking Cable?

[Roy Butler]

Title: Message




If you can't find new/ old stock somewhere, I have a customer that has
a used SWI.
Drop me a line off-list if you need it.
Roy Butler
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer®
NYSERDA eligible PV & wind installer 
Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC
8902 Route 46
Arkport, NY 14807
607-324-9747

www.four-winds-energy.com

Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, 
a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.




Tump wrote:

  
  
  
  try Chris @ tekrispower.com 732-938-4996 he is
in NJ or try Joe Piszier in Reno,NV, info probably on the Xantrex
authorized repair center site, or some other wrench?
  
-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William
Miller
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 6:19 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trace SW Stacking Cable?


Jeff:

These are tough to find.  I did find one in my son's remote control car
storage box (my wife is ruthless when it  comes to putting away
clutter), but I used it already.  I acquired another one from a vendor
recently and I will ask if more are available.  I do have the wiring
diagram for building one, if you would like.

William




At 03:05 PM 3/30/2009, you wrote:

Hi All,
  
I need to track down a '98 vintage Trace SW stacking cable.  Anyone
have or know where I might find one?
  
Thanks,
  
Jeff C.
-- 
~
Jeff Clearwater
Senior Design Engineer
NABCEP (tm) Certified Solar PV Installer
  http://www.nabcep.org/
Village Power Design/NorthEast Solar Design
Turnkey Solar Design & Installation for the Commercial Sector
  http://www.villagepower.com
goso...@villagepower.com
  
Voice: 413-259-3750
Fax: 413-825-0703
65 Schoolhouse Rd
Amherst, MA 01002
~
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William Miller 
Miller Solar
Voice :805-438-5600 Fax: 805-438-4607   
email: will...@millersolar.com
http://millersolar.com
License No. C-10-773985

  
  

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Trace SW Stacking Cable?

[Tump]

try Chris @ tekrispower.com 732-938-4996 he is in NJ or try Joe Piszier in
Reno,NV, info probably on the Xantrex authorized repair center site, or some
other wrench?

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William
Miller
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 6:19 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trace SW Stacking Cable?


Jeff:

These are tough to find.  I did find one in my son's remote control car
storage box (my wife is ruthless when it  comes to putting away clutter),
but I used it already.  I acquired another one from a vendor recently and I
will ask if more are available.  I do have the wiring diagram for building
one, if you would like.

William




At 03:05 PM 3/30/2009, you wrote:


Hi All,

I need to track down a '98 vintage Trace SW stacking cable.  Anyone have or
know where I might find one?

Thanks,

Jeff C.
-- 
~
Jeff Clearwater
Senior Design Engineer
NABCEP (tm) Certified Solar PV Installer
http://www.nabcep.org/
Village Power Design/NorthEast Solar Design
Turnkey Solar Design & Installation for the Commercial Sector
http://www.villagepower.com  
goso...@villagepower.com

Voice: 413-259-3750
Fax: 413-825-0703
65 Schoolhouse Rd
Amherst, MA 01002
~
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Please note new e-mail address and domain:

William Miller 
Miller Solar
Voice :805-438-5600 Fax: 805-438-4607   
email: will...@millersolar.com
http://millersolar.com  
License No. C-10-773985


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Trace SW Stacking Cable?

[William Miller]

Jeff:

These are tough to find.  I did find one in my son's remote control car 
storage box (my wife is ruthless when it  comes to putting away clutter), 
but I used it already.  I acquired another one from a vendor recently and I 
will ask if more are available.  I do have the wiring diagram for building 
one, if you would like.


William




At 03:05 PM 3/30/2009, you wrote:

Hi All,

I need to track down a '98 vintage Trace SW stacking cable.  Anyone have 
or know where I might find one?


Thanks,

Jeff C.
--
~
Jeff Clearwater
Senior Design Engineer
NABCEP (tm) Certified Solar PV Installer
http://www.nabcep.org/
Village Power Design/NorthEast Solar Design
Turnkey Solar Design & Installation for the Commercial Sector
http://www.villagepower.com
goso...@villagepower.com

Voice: 413-259-3750
Fax: 413-825-0703
65 Schoolhouse Rd
Amherst, MA 01002
~
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William Miller
Miller Solar
Voice :805-438-5600 Fax: 805-438-4607
email: will...@millersolar.com
http://millersolar.com
License No. C-10-773985
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Mixing and Matching PV modules--Error Corrected

[Peter Parrish]

I think I understand all the dictums about single-strings of PV modules: all
the same modules, all the same azimuth and tilt, but I have a "special
situation".

We are starting to accumulate a number of "second hand" PV modules. Some
have frames slightly damaged by the shipper; some have come from warranty
replacements; and some are odd lots that we haven't been able to sell.

What I want to do is to set up a demo system composed of two different types
of modules. This is my initial design:

Total of fourteen modules. Two strings of seven modules each. Each string
consisting of four modules of one type (type A) and three modules of a
second type (type B).

Both module types have 50 cells and the type A module has 155mm-sq cells and
the type B module has 150mm-sq cells. So you would think that the
performance specs would match pretty well. However, since the type B modules
are an earlier vintage, they probably don't have the latest and greatest
surface treatment, etc., so the current specs are lower than one might
expect.

Specs on type A: Voc = 30.8V, Vmp = 24.5V, Isc = 8.70A, Imp = 8.16A. Specs
on type B: Voc = 30.6V, Vmp = 24.6V, Isc = 7.38A, Imp = 6.93A. 

So here's my question: would putting together the strings of four type A and
three type B cause any problems? I know the string current would be limited
by the type B modules, but above and beyond that, what would be the
operating point of the type A modules and what would be the stress if any on
the type B modules? I'd like this demo system to last a while and I
certainly don't want to see scorch marks on the type B modules after a few
months of use. 

Any thoughts?

- Peter

Peter T. Parrish, President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com 






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[RE-wrenches] Mixing and Matching PV modules

[Peter Parrish]

I think I understand all the dictums about single-strings of PV modules: all
the same modules, all the same azimuth and tilt, but I have a "special
situation".

We are starting to accumulate a number of "second hand" PV modules. Some
have frames slightly damaged by the shipper; some have come from warranty
replacements; and some are odd lots that we haven't been able to sell.

What I want to do is to set up a demo system composed of two different types
of modules. This is my initial design:

Total of fourteen modules. Two strings of seven modules each. Each string
consisting of four modules of one type (type A) and three modules of a
second type (type B).

Both module types have 50 cells and the type A module has 155mm-sq cells and
the type B module has 155mm-sq cells. So you would think that the
performance specs would match pretty well. However, since the type B modules
are an earlier vintage, they probably don't have the latest and greatest
surface treatment, etc., so the current specs are lower than one might
expect.

Specs on type A: Voc = 30.8V, Vmp = 24.5V, Isc = 8.70A, Imp = 8.16A. Specs
on type B: Voc = 30.6V, Vmp = 24.6V, Isc = 7.38A, Imp = 6.93A. 

So here's my question: would putting together the strings of four type A and
three type B cause any problems? I know the string current would be limited
by the type B modules, but above and beyond that, what would be the
operating point of the type A modules and what would be the stress if any on
the type B modules? I'd like this demo system to last a while and I
certainly don't want to see scorch marks on the type B modules after a few
months of use. 

Any thoughts?

- Peter

Peter T. Parrish, President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com 



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[RE-wrenches] Trace SW Stacking Cable?

[Jeff Clearwater, Village Power Design]

Hi All,

I need to track down a '98 vintage Trace SW stacking cable.  Anyone 
have or know where I might find one?


Thanks,

Jeff C.
--
~
Jeff Clearwater
Senior Design Engineer
NABCEP (tm) Certified Solar PV Installer
http://www.nabcep.org/
Village Power Design/NorthEast Solar Design
Turnkey Solar Design & Installation for the Commercial Sector
http://www.villagepower.com
goso...@villagepower.com

Voice: 413-259-3750
Fax: 413-825-0703
65 Schoolhouse Rd
Amherst, MA 01002
~
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Frostek-240 Propane Freezer

[Kurt Albershardt]

On 3/30/09 1:23 PM,  Jeff Yago wrote:
I have an off grid client out west we designed and installed a large 
pv system about 8 years ago that recently
contacted me to say they needed an installation and operator manual 
for their Frostek-240 Propane Freezer.
I have tried all the normal channels and internet web searches and 
cannot find a link to where I could download
or order this for them.  Anybody familiar with the company or product 
and could provide a link?


Try Unique Gas Products 
http://propanefridge.com/en/dealers/ownersManuals.asp





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Re: [RE-wrenches] Frostek-240 Propane Freezer

[Jeff Yago]

I have an off grid client out west we designed and installed a large pv system about 8 years ago that recently 
contacted me to say they needed an installation and operator manual for their Frostek-240 Propane Freezer.   
I have tried all the normal channels and internet web searches and cannot find a link to where I could download 
or order this for them.  Anybody familiar with the company or product and could provide a link?
 
Thanks,
 
Jeff Yago Netscape.  Just the Net You Need.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverters and their Manufacturers

[Bob-O Schultze]

Joel,
Excellent advice. Tump also hit the nail when he said that it's OUR  
reputations on the line when we recommend and install a product.  
Unfortunately, no matter how well beta testing goes, there are so many  
varied installations, climates and situations in what we do that there  
will always be some problems and tweaks needed with new products. No  
blame, but all the more reason that the manus need to support the  
Wrenches, especially the early adopters, with compensation for  
legitimate service calls. For years I've tried to get through to  
various marketing department heads (you know, the folks with a BA in  
BS) that the distributors are not their market, the end users are not  
their market, the WRENCHES are their market. Some get it, some don't.
Nine times out of ten, whatever I am recommending the client will buy.  
And, if I don't recommend it, I don't buy it through distribution. So,  
marketing types, who has the power here?

Best, Bob-O

On Mar 30, 2009, at 9:29 AM, Joel Davidson wrote:

We all define beta test units differently. For example, with cars, I  
don't buy the first year model so I got the 2001 Prius, but I did  
trade it in for the 2006 because it was an improvement over the  
earlier models. With inverters, I really like my 11 year old Trace  
SW4048 but wanted to expand my system with a batteryless inverter so I  
got an SMA as they have tens of thousands of reliable units in the  
field. Believe me, I was tempted to buy a US-made inverter, but I read  
too many wrenches' comments about problems and do not have the time or  
money to mess around. Matt's list will be a valuable tool for flushing  
out problems.


Of course you are not going to ask your average customer to try a new  
inverter and sign a waiver or whatever you want to call it. But a lot  
of customers want the latest-and-greatest widget, so be honest with  
them and tell them that you have not installed any or only X number of  
what they want. For your average customers, only sell them reliable  
equipment backed by reliable companies who work with you to solve  
problems quickly in the customer's favor and not out of your pocket.


Regarding manufacturers, I have been general manager of 2 PV factories  
and I know a lot of people in manufacturing of all kinds of products.  
Almost all the techie managers are knowledgeable, dedicated people who  
really want to make the best product. But problems happen. The good  
news is techie managers are great problem solvers. Several wrenches  
are working with manufacturers and know how difficult it is to decide  
when to pull the trigger to release a new product or to shoot it down.


So the next time your customers say they want the latest technology,  
tell them the truth. New products have problems. They can either buy  
tried-and-true reliable equipment or accept the responsibility for  
trying something new.


Joel Davidson___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverters and their Manufacturers

[Joel Davidson]

MessageWe all define beta test units differently. For example, with cars, I 
don't buy the first year model so I got the 2001 Prius, but I did trade it in 
for the 2006 because it was an improvement over the earlier models. With 
inverters, I really like my 11 year old Trace SW4048 but wanted to expand my 
system with a batteryless inverter so I got an SMA as they have tens of 
thousands of reliable units in the field. Believe me, I was tempted to buy a 
US-made inverter, but I read too many wrenches' comments about problems and do 
not have the time or money to mess around. Matt's list will be a valuable tool 
for flushing out problems.

Of course you are not going to ask your average customer to try a new inverter 
and sign a waiver or whatever you want to call it. But a lot of customers want 
the latest-and-greatest widget, so be honest with them and tell them that you 
have not installed any or only X number of what they want. For your average 
customers, only sell them reliable equipment backed by reliable companies who 
work with you to solve problems quickly in the customer's favor and not out of 
your pocket.

Regarding manufacturers, I have been general manager of 2 PV factories and I 
know a lot of people in manufacturing of all kinds of products. Almost all the 
techie managers are knowledgeable, dedicated people who really want to make the 
best product. But problems happen. The good news is techie managers are great 
problem solvers. Several wrenches are working with manufacturers and know how 
difficult it is to decide when to pull the trigger to release a new product or 
to shoot it down.

So the next time your customers say they want the latest technology, tell them 
the truth. New products have problems. They can either buy tried-and-true 
reliable equipment or accept the responsibility for trying something new.

Joel Davidson
  - Original Message - 
  From: Tump 
  To: 'RE-wrenches' 
  Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 9:00 AM
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverters and their Manufacturers


  But seriously, how about getting in writing from the customer that he/she is 
getting the opportunity to use a new inverter design with new features but may 
also have some unknown design issues that could, from time to time, require 
attention?  

  At what point does an inverter, cc or other BOS components become something 
other then a "the latest-and-greatest gadget in the beta-testing process."
  IF we are to install components that have " have some unknown design issues 
that could, from time to time, require attention? "when do we have the 
understanding & the willingness from the manus to be compensated.Do we too sign 
something from the manufacture? Hey no problem I'll travel 200 miles & install 
your product cause you told me it wasn't too reliable.
  I don't think that the issue we are talking about is/ are Bata test 
components.
   You can't tell me that the manufactures have just had isolated incidents of 
product failure that they have chosen to ignore.
  We the installers, are the folks who have our reputations compromised by 
component failures.
  I can't wait for my next customer to hear that they need to sign a paper 
indicating that the products might work , might not, but solar is reaaay 
reliable.
  Again I DO NOT put all the blame on the manufactures but having a qc 
guideline not only for installations but warrantee issues.This just might be a 
better way to prevent problems & then to fix issues that arise due to product 
failure in which that both parties agree on.
  What you did w/ Omni is exactly what I am talking about.
  These issues are not new to the industry but getting the manufactures to 
discuss & work on guide lines for testing for failures in the field & 
compensating those individuals that comply  w/ the test process in order to 
address these issues IS!
   NO sarcasm intended.


  -Original Message-
  From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Joel Davidson
  Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:50 AM
  To: RE-wrenches
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverters and their Manufacturers


Not buying equipment that does not work. Excuse my sarcasm, but what a 
concept. How about not pushing manufacturers to release their products 
prematurely? No one on this list would ever do that - more sarcasm.

But seriously, how about getting in writing from the customer that he/she 
is getting the opportunity to use a new inverter design with new features but 
may also have some unknown design issues that could, from time to time, require 
attention? In conjunction with the customer warning, get the manufacturer's 
cooperation to share call-back and repair or replacement costs. In other words, 
involve your customers who want the latest-and-greatest gadget in the 
beta-testing process.

Some of you heard this story before, but it is worth repeating. Several 
years ago, I did a project with 

Re: [RE-wrenches] FW: Battery impedance analyzers

[Tump]

This comes from Jeff Skelski a guy that has been involved for quite a few
years w/ batteries, EVs & Jeff also works w/ a hi freq battery desulphator
group. this is his response & contact info FMI.

jeff...@the-spa.com

I have been using conductance technology for 10+ years and it is a great
tool. I can test a bank of 24(up to 100) batteries is less than ten minutes
and get a print-out. It is only a very good guide that has the advantage to
be used without disconnecting anything. The more you use a conductance
tester the easier it is to learn the short-comings. It has the ability to
test a battery, or a bank that is not fully charged. It is also great for
matching a used battery to an aged bank. It I have a question and suspect a
particular battery, I still will use my carbon-pile or load bank along with
other indicators. I have been using the Midtronics and am currently testing
the Auto Meter. 

I use both Automotive and SLA(ah)units of different sizes. The prices do
very but as the old adage goes you get what you pay for, my regular unit is
an $800 Midtronics plus a $400 printer. I am not a part of the wrenches
group, nor am I very good with email. I would love to join but probably
can't as I am only a battery / energy guy. Jeff

>

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dana
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 5:02 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] FW: Battery impedance analyzers



I forwarded this query to Rob Shappell of NWES here is his response. SEE
Below.

 

Dana Orzel

 

Great Solar Works, Inc

www.solarwork.com

E - d...@solarwork.com

V - 970.626.5253

F - 970.626.4140

C - 970.209.4076

"I'd put my money on solar energy. I hope we don't have to wait 'til oil and
coal run out before we tackle that."

-Thomas Edison, in conversation with Henry Ford and Harvey Firestone, March
1931

 

From: Rob Shappell [mailto:r...@nwes.com] 
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 2:04 PM
To: d...@solarwork.com
Subject: RE: [RE-wrenches] Battery impedance analyzers

 

Hi Dana,

 

I have no direct information as to their abilities. 

 

What I can say is that we had a battery that looked like it was melted down,
I'm talking about lead terminals that were drooping and melted!! They were
cooked and starved of electrolyte! We replaced the batteries, but some how
the cooked batteries got into the hands of a guy who had an impedance
analyzers. He cleaned them up and did some testing  and claimed that the
batteries were all OK. Not long thereafter, the cooked batteries showed up
on eBay. Not too long after that, we sold replacement cells...you be the
judge.

 

The battery industry is working on a reliable device that makes it much
easier to determine the health of a battery, but I think it is hit and miss
at this point in time.

 

Rob

 

 

 

Rob - do you have an answer for these boys?

 

 

 


On Mar 27, 2009, at 6:19 AM, Travis Creswell wrote:

 

Hi Larry,

 

I've often wondered about them.  My local battery "superstore" (everything
from cell phone to golf carts) had been using them for the last few years to
test automotive starter batteries and deep cycles but the last time I was in
there I noticed they'd gone back to the old standby resistance/carbon pile
style testers.  I inquired and wasn't able to get any exacts but the summary
was they were not happy with them.  I'm curious to know your findings on
both fronts.

 

Best,

Travis Creswell

Ozark Energy Services

www.ozarkenergyservices.com  

 

 

  _  

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Larry
Crutcher, Starlight Solar
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 7:08 PM
To:  RE-wrenches @lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [ RE-wrenches ]  Battery impedance analyzers

 

Hello Wrenches,

 

Is anyone using an impedance type battery analyzer for lead acid batteries?
If so, what do you have and how has it worked out. I have seen prices from
$200 to $7500 and I'm sure there is a world of difference. 

 

I have been using a pulser circuit I built about 4 years ago to restore
nearly dead AGM batteries but I have not had any sophisticated method of
verifying before and after performance. I perform a constant current
equalization with no voltage limit and then leave the battery on the pulser
for a few weeks. This works great and I have restored and sold a few used
AGM batteries that would have gone to the recycler. Today our battery buyer
just picked up another 15,400 lb. of batteries from us. Yep, they were
mostly murdered! I would like to be able to restore more of them.

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverters and their Manufacturers

[Tump]

But seriously, how about getting in writing from the customer that he/she is
getting the opportunity to use a new inverter design with new features but
may also have some unknown design issues that could, from time to time,
require attention?  
 
At what point does an inverter, cc or other BOS components become something
other then a "the latest-and-greatest gadget in the beta-testing process."
IF we are to install components that have " have some unknown design issues
that could, from time to time, require attention? "when do we have the
understanding & the willingness from the manus to be compensated.Do we too
sign something from the manufacture? Hey no problem I'll travel 200 miles &
install your product cause you told me it wasn't too reliable.
I don't think that the issue we are talking about is/ are Bata test
components.
 You can't tell me that the manufactures have just had isolated incidents of
product failure that they have chosen to ignore.
We the installers, are the folks who have our reputations compromised by
component failures.
I can't wait for my next customer to hear that they need to sign a paper
indicating that the products might work , might not, but solar is reaaay
reliable.
Again I DO NOT put all the blame on the manufactures but having a qc
guideline not only for installations but warrantee issues.This just might be
a better way to prevent problems & then to fix issues that arise due to
product failure in which that both parties agree on.
What you did w/ Omni is exactly what I am talking about.
These issues are not new to the industry but getting the manufactures to
discuss & work on guide lines for testing for failures in the field &
compensating those individuals that comply  w/ the test process in order to
address these issues IS!
 NO sarcasm intended.
 
 
-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Joel
Davidson
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:50 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverters and their Manufacturers



Not buying equipment that does not work. Excuse my sarcasm, but what a
concept. How about not pushing manufacturers to release their products
prematurely? No one on this list would ever do that - more sarcasm.
 
But seriously, how about getting in writing from the customer that he/she is
getting the opportunity to use a new inverter design with new features but
may also have some unknown design issues that could, from time to time,
require attention? In conjunction with the customer warning, get the
manufacturer's cooperation to share call-back and repair or replacement
costs. In other words, involve your customers who want the
latest-and-greatest gadget in the beta-testing process.
 
Some of you heard this story before, but it is worth repeating. Several
years ago, I did a project with 250 Omnion inverters. Omnion inverters were
not very reliable but they were all we had at the time. Infant mortality
rate was over 6%. The manufacturer blamed the installers and I blamed
inadequate factory final testing. Hans Myers, Omnion owner, was a good
engineer and a reasonable guy. He agreed to switch from 8 hours factory
burn-in to 3 days burn-in before shipping. I agreed to have installers
follow a specific installation procedure (send for copy off-list) and
sign-off on their installation. Infant mortality rate dropped to 0%. Lesson
learned: work with your suppliers to the benefit of your customers and your
bottom line.
 
Joel Davidson
 

- Original Message - 
From: Tump   
To: 'RE-wrenches'   
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 4:34 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Iverters and their Manufacturers
COMPENSATIONcheck list?

Perhaps this might be an additional reason to really work on the installer's
guild. 
If this trend continues (it hasn't changed since the beginning) then we as a
group might single out one Manu per month & NOT purchases their product. 
Two things might happen; 
1)They might then have the time to actually build products that have a bit
better reliability .
2) If there is a problem WHEN we start to buy their product the Manu's
realize WE the installers, who SELL & INSTALL their products  + put food on
their tables, have THE POWER to affect their bottom line as they do w/ ours
due to lost opportunity costs &  expenses incurred while replacing faulty
equipment.

Probably wouldn't take too long for one of the manufactures to hear from
their distributors that they are not selling anything.
 
 
I will NOT say that all the problems are due to Manu's problems.
I know that I am guilty of not ALWAYS checking the basics & blaming things
that ARE NOT fault of the Manu's but loose wires that. "I swear I checked or
my wires never loosened up".
Many of us have offered suggestions regarding trouble shooting issues in the
past & Bill B has put together a "installers check list''.How about it
Bill?, knowin

[RE-wrenches] PV shingles

[Howie Michaelson]

Hi Folks,

Does anyone have current experience with PV shingles?  I have a potential
client interested in re-roofing a large pitched roof (maybe 100 square)
and wants to look into P shingles as a net savings over re-roofing using
composite and placing a PV system on top of that.  I have no experience
with PV shingles, but what I do know makes me shy away from them.  I did a
cursory search of the archives and found no recent thread on the topic.

Thanks,
Howie
-- 
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™

Sun Catcher, LLC
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
VT Solar & Wind Incentive Program Partner
http://www.SunCatcherVT.com
(cell) 802-272-0004
(home) 802-439-6096





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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverters and their Manufacturers

[Joel Davidson]

MessageNot buying equipment that does not work. Excuse my sarcasm, but what a 
concept. How about not pushing manufacturers to release their products 
prematurely? No one on this list would ever do that - more sarcasm.

But seriously, how about getting in writing from the customer that he/she is 
getting the opportunity to use a new inverter design with new features but may 
also have some unknown design issues that could, from time to time, require 
attention? In conjunction with the customer warning, get the manufacturer's 
cooperation to share call-back and repair or replacement costs. In other words, 
involve your customers who want the latest-and-greatest gadget in the 
beta-testing process.

Some of you heard this story before, but it is worth repeating. Several years 
ago, I did a project with 250 Omnion inverters. Omnion inverters were not very 
reliable but they were all we had at the time. Infant mortality rate was over 
6%. The manufacturer blamed the installers and I blamed inadequate factory 
final testing. Hans Myers, Omnion owner, was a good engineer and a reasonable 
guy. He agreed to switch from 8 hours factory burn-in to 3 days burn-in before 
shipping. I agreed to have installers follow a specific installation procedure 
(send for copy off-list) and sign-off on their installation. Infant mortality 
rate dropped to 0%. Lesson learned: work with your suppliers to the benefit of 
your customers and your bottom line.

Joel Davidson

  - Original Message - 
  From: Tump 
  To: 'RE-wrenches' 
  Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 4:34 AM
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Iverters and their Manufacturers COMPENSATIONcheck 
list?


  Perhaps this might be an additional reason to really work on the installer's 
guild. 
  If this trend continues (it hasn't changed since the beginning) then we as a 
group might single out one Manu per month & NOT purchases their product. 
  Two things might happen; 
  1)They might then have the time to actually build products that have a bit 
better reliability .
  2) If there is a problem WHEN we start to buy their product the Manu's 
realize WE the installers, who SELL & INSTALL their products  + put food on 
their tables, have THE POWER to affect their bottom line as they do w/ ours due 
to lost opportunity costs &  expenses incurred while replacing faulty equipment.
  Probably wouldn't take too long for one of the manufactures to hear from 
their distributors that they are not selling anything.


  I will NOT say that all the problems are due to Manu's problems.
  I know that I am guilty of not ALWAYS checking the basics & blaming things 
that ARE NOT fault of the Manu's but loose wires that. "I swear I checked or my 
wires never loosened up".
  Many of us have offered suggestions regarding trouble shooting issues in the 
past & Bill B has put together a "installers check list''.How about it Bill?, 
knowing you, this is something you put together back at PVusa oh those many 
years ago
  This could be the start of a way to finally develop a industry wide & Manu. 
accepted check list to properly assess an issue & then the fix.
  How about is you manufactures, think this may be a way to compensate the 
installers that DO have an issue w/ your products & not their installations.
-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter Parrish
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 5:59 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Iverters and their Manufacturers


I don't know about the rest of this group, but we have noticed a steady 
increase in inverter warranty calls. It used to be one a year; then things 
started to increase to the point of at least one per-month. In the beginning it 
was the just the GEC-1000s, then the SMA EEPROM debacle, followed by the 
Fronius IG firmware problem, followed by the Xantrex GT "controlled flight into 
terrain". Now both Outback systems we have installed recently have gone down 
(#...@!?*). We are finding that most manufacturers are essentially indifferent 
to installers who are an integral part of their warranty obligation and are 
doing a poor job of supporting installers for a variety of reasons, to wit:



(1)   Outback will not reimburse installers period. Not for anything that 
they do. They require that equipment be removed and sent to WA for repair or 
replacement, or will ship replacement parts when the problem is obvious, but 
that's it. We have had one repair last month and are facing a second in April. 
We paid extra for the CEC-grade warranty, and I expected more. Based on this 
experience, I will not recommend or sell Outback equipment, until this policy 
changes.

(2)   Xantrex lost a returned GT inverter! They began dunning us for it. We 
had the RMA on file but didn't bother to write down the tracking number from 
the Xantrex-generated UPS label (what am I going to do with an inverter that 
won't invert?)

Re: [RE-wrenches] Iverters and their Manufacturers COMPENSATION check list?

[Drake Chamberlin]

At 06:34 AM 3/30/2009, you wrote:
 lost opportunity costs &  expenses incurred while replacing faulty 
equipment.


That is for sure!  Also, we loose credibility when we hook equipment 
up and it doesn't work properly.  It always reflects back on the guy 
who sold him the junk.  Be it ETA pumps or malfunctioning inverters, 
painful black eyes result.  I've almost gotten out of solar, more 
than once, for these reasons.  Do a standard electrical installation, 
and there are very seldom call backs.  Solar is a whole lot more 
interesting than standard electrical, but can be a double edged sword.



Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
740-448-7328
740-856-9648  ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Iverters and their Manufacturers COMPENSATION check list?

[Tump]

Perhaps this might be an additional reason to really work on the installer's
guild. 
If this trend continues (it hasn't changed since the beginning) then we as a
group might single out one Manu per month & NOT purchases their product. 
Two things might happen; 
1)They might then have the time to actually build products that have a bit
better reliability .
2) If there is a problem WHEN we start to buy their product the Manu's
realize WE the installers, who SELL & INSTALL their products  + put food on
their tables, have THE POWER to affect their bottom line as they do w/ ours
due to lost opportunity costs &  expenses incurred while replacing faulty
equipment.
Probably wouldn't take too long for one of the manufactures to hear from
their distributors that they are not selling anything.
 
 
I will NOT say that all the problems are due to Manu's problems.
I know that I am guilty of not ALWAYS checking the basics & blaming things
that ARE NOT fault of the Manu's but loose wires that. "I swear I checked or
my wires never loosened up".
Many of us have offered suggestions regarding trouble shooting issues in the
past & Bill B has put together a "installers check list''.How about it
Bill?, knowing you, this is something you put together back at PVusa oh
those many years ago
This could be the start of a way to finally develop a industry wide & Manu.
accepted check list to properly assess an issue & then the fix.
How about is you manufactures, think this may be a way to compensate the
installers that DO have an issue w/ your products & not their installations.

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter
Parrish
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 5:59 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Iverters and their Manufacturers



I don't know about the rest of this group, but we have noticed a steady
increase in inverter warranty calls. It used to be one a year; then things
started to increase to the point of at least one per-month. In the beginning
it was the just the GEC-1000s, then the SMA EEPROM debacle, followed by the
Fronius IG firmware problem, followed by the Xantrex GT "controlled flight
into terrain". Now both Outback systems we have installed recently have gone
down (#...@!?*). We are finding that most manufacturers are essentially
indifferent to installers who are an integral part of their warranty
obligation and are doing a poor job of supporting installers for a variety
of reasons, to wit:

 

(1)   Outback will not reimburse installers period. Not for anything that
they do. They require that equipment be removed and sent to WA for repair or
replacement, or will ship replacement parts when the problem is obvious, but
that's it. We have had one repair last month and are facing a second in
April. We paid extra for the CEC-grade warranty, and I expected more. Based
on this experience, I will not recommend or sell Outback equipment, until
this policy changes.

(2)   Xantrex lost a returned GT inverter! They began dunning us for it. We
had the RMA on file but didn't bother to write down the tracking number from
the Xantrex-generated UPS label (what am I going to do with an inverter that
won't invert?). So not only will they not process our request for
reimbursement, they "want their inverter back".

(3)   SMA didn't want to honor payment on a service call for an EEPROM swap
out, even though I had an email from one of their techies promising just
that. After I produced the smoking gun, they pointed out that we were about
six weeks late in sending in the reimbursement paperwork - they weren't
going to pay us. They've taken a legally defensible position, but it makes
for terrible public relations.

(4)   I thought Fronius might the only cowboy wearing a white hat, but no.
They want us to wait a month before reimbursing not us but our distributor
who only had the misfortune of selling us bad merchandise. How we manage
(and when) to get reimbursed from our distributor, only time will tell, but
I bet they won't cut us a check.

 

But I am saving my best story for last.

 

(5)   Xantrex II: we had a terrible time getting an XW6048 to work properly
(the details are unimportant, except to say the design was spot on). I made
six service calls after installing it last Summer. I did a firmware upgrade,
tightened even terminal and wiggled every wire I could. I checked the module
connections and the PV combiner box. We programmed and reprogrammed every
possible system parameter, to no avail. After about 4 months (5?), I refused
to make any more service calls without a Xantrex technician at my side, and
the customer threatened to see an attorney. Xantrex eventually sent a
technician down to Los Angeles and administered another firmware upgrade and
the system settled down. Do you think they are willing to pay for any of our
post-install service calls? 

 

I don't switch vendors very often or without good reason, but I don't exp

Re: [RE-wrenches] Iverters and their Manufacturers

[Tump]

Not sure if the companys are just using us the installers/customers as Beta
testers or what but the failure rate is getting higher.
 
Welcome to the world of solar!  they're a few of us who still remember
vapor ware from the early 90s

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of
r...@solar4maine.com
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 7:00 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Iverters and their Manufacturers


We have noticed we seem to be spending a lot of our time doing warranty work
as well. And it doesnt seem to be any one manufacturer. We have had a
Xantrex MPPT controller that was reading off by 6-7 volts. We have an
outback controller that wont sleep at night. We have had 2 Xantrex GT's die
as well as a remote monitor for one of them. We have had our share of
warranty issues with Magnum they are pretty good but expect any intaler to
pay list price to get a Replacement? 
 
Not sure if the companys are just using us the installers/customers as Beta
testers or what but the failure rate is getting higher.
 

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