[RE-wrenches] Home Depot solar?
Anyone out there have any experience with Home Depot's solar installers? Jesse Sent from my iPhone ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Home Depot solar?
We were recently asked to fix a royal mess by a SDHW installer contracted via Home Depot. Not fun. 60+ systems with various deficiencies. The installer was to blame, not HD. HD is not selling PV in our market (fortunately). Jason Szumlanski -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jesse Dahl Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 10:39 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Home Depot solar? Anyone out there have any experience with Home Depot's solar installers? Jesse ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Adding on to existing PV System
We've been contracted to add on to an existing PV system in a residence. The existing system has a 30A 2P Breaker on a 200A rated panel with a 200A main breaker. The new system would require a 15A breaker, which would exceed the limit in NEC 690.64(B)(2). The existing system has a fusible AC disconnect mounted next to the meter. This was originally intended as the utility external disconnect. The utility no longer requires a disconnect, but if we do a supply side connection, we would need a fusible AC disconnect anyway for the new system. I would collocate the new disconnect with the old. Does anyone see any problem with doing a supply size connection for the new system? Any labeling snags that I might need to consider? Jason Szumlanski Fafco Solar ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] 30 KW Propane Gennys (SIs)
Fellow Wrenchers, What's folks favorite Propane Gen line in the 30 KW range for off-grid backup? SMA has limited exposure to larger generators for the SI for approval to their list. Anybody out there know which SI's in the 30 KW range that the SI likes? Thanks! jc -- Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design Renewable Energy Consultant 32 Years in all Aspects of Renewables www.villagepower.com skype: jclearwater 413-559-9763 ~ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Home Depot solar?
Home Depot IS selling PV in Portland Oregon through Solar City. Seirrabuton Club is marketing PV to their members in Oregon. They have chosen a single contractor for the entire state to install all of their member's systems. Payola is $300.00/system installed. Andrew Koyaanisqatsi President Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. Since 1987, Moving Portland and Beyond to an Environmentally Sustainable Future. 503-238-4502 www.solarenergyoregon.com Better one's House too little one day than too big all the Year after. From: Jason Szumlanski ja...@fafcosolar.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 8:17 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Home Depot solar? We were recently asked to fix a royal mess by a SDHW installer contracted via Home Depot. Not fun. 60+ systems with various deficiencies. The installer was to blame, not HD. HD is not selling PV in our market (fortunately). Jason Szumlanski -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jesse Dahl Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 10:39 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Home Depot solar? Anyone out there have any experience with Home Depot's solar installers? Jesse ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Home Depot solar?
Andrew, Koyaanisqatsi is also a great movie by Francis Ford Copolla. You should all see it. It's been awhile since I've seen it but if I remember correctly it's a Hopi Indian term meaning once we start digging from the earth, we're screwed beyond repair. Larry Liesner Design and Installations Elektron Solar, LLC 49 Richmondville Ave Suite 107 Westport, CT 06880 203-557-3127 (office) 203-644-2404 (cell) 203-549-0977 (fax) wire...@gmail.com On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 12:31 PM, Solar Energy Solutions solarenergysoluti...@yahoo.com wrote: Home Depot IS selling PV in Portland Oregon through Solar City. Seirrabuton Club is marketing PV to their members in Oregon. They have chosen a single contractor for the entire state to install all of their member's systems. Payola is $300.00/system installed. *Andrew Koyaanisqatsi* President *Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.* Since 1987, Moving Portland and Beyond to an Environmentally Sustainable Future. *503-238-4502* *www.solarenergyoregon.com * ** *Better one's House too little one day* *than too big all the Year after.* *From:* Jason Szumlanski ja...@fafcosolar.com *To:* RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org *Sent:* Thursday, September 29, 2011 8:17 AM *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Home Depot solar? We were recently asked to fix a royal mess by a SDHW installer contracted via Home Depot. Not fun. 60+ systems with various deficiencies. The installer was to blame, not HD. HD is not selling PV in our market (fortunately). Jason Szumlanski -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jesse Dahl Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 10:39 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Home Depot solar? Anyone out there have any experience with Home Depot's solar installers? Jesse ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org NABCEP Certified PV Installer (# 032611-184) ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] 30 KW Propane Gennys (SIs)
We have a few Kohler 20kw, 30 kw, and 40 kw units on big off grid stuff. Great machines, get about 5000 hours before they need work. 2 wire start, 1800 rpm water cooled. Ours had 4 to 6 cylinder Ford motors. I don't know what they use now, or if they've changed the line recently. I found over the years that oversizing them more, helped everything from cleaner waveform, to running the chargers at full throttle, to having more pass through current, and the fuel efficiency seems to better. This was at 11,000 ft, so you would have to take some of my observations with a grain of salt, but we replaced a 30 Kw unit feeding 4 SW4048s, with a 40 KW, and the customer was happier. You're burning more fuel while running, but the generator seemed to charge the batteries faster, reducing overall run time, and overall fuel use. From looking at many Kohlers on an oscilloscope, they have an excellent waveform, (no funny spikes, like most portable units) so I can't imagine why a Sunny Island wouldn't work well with it, but I never actually used one with a Kohler. Ray Walters On 9/29/2011 9:53 AM, Jeff Clearwater wrote: Fellow Wrenchers, What's folks favorite Propane Gen line in the 30 KW range for off-grid backup? SMA has limited exposure to larger generators for the SI for approval to their list. Anybody out there know which SI's in the 30 KW range that the SI likes? Thanks! jc -- Jeff Clearwater Village Power Design Renewable Energy Consultant 32 Years in all Aspects of Renewables www.villagepower.com skype: jclearwater 413-559-9763 ~ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Home Depot solar?
Solar Electrical Systems (SES) in Westlake Village California was a Home Depot installer for BP Solar systems for a few years. SES does excellent work. SES no longer installs BP Solar or Home Depot systems but occasionally replaces BP modules that fail on the systems that they installed. Joel Davidson - Original Message - From: Jesse Dahl dahlso...@gmail.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 7:39 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Home Depot solar? Anyone out there have any experience with Home Depot's solar installers? Jesse Sent from my iPhone ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Home Depot solar?
We sold for Home Depot (actually through HD for Astropower in 2000- 2001 in the Palm Springs area. It lasted about a year before they started shopping install labor - then it fell apart with competitors slinging lowball prices to get the work. Max Balchowsky Design Engineer SEE Systems 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 760-403-6810 From: wire...@gmail.com wire...@gmail.com To: Solar Energy Solutions solarenergysoluti...@yahoo.com; RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 9:40 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Home Depot solar? Andrew, Koyaanisqatsi is also a great movie by Francis Ford Copolla. You should all see it. It's been awhile since I've seen it but if I remember correctly it's a Hopi Indian term meaning once we start digging from the earth, we're screwed beyond repair. Larry Liesner Design and Installations Elektron Solar, LLC 49 Richmondville Ave Suite 107 Westport, CT 06880 203-557-3127 (office) 203-644-2404 (cell) 203-549-0977 (fax) wire...@gmail.com On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 12:31 PM, Solar Energy Solutions solarenergysoluti...@yahoo.com wrote: Home Depot IS selling PV in Portland Oregon through Solar City. Seirrabuton Club is marketing PV to their members in Oregon. They have chosen a single contractor for the entire state to install all of their member's systems. Payola is $300.00/system installed. Andrew Koyaanisqatsi President Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. Since 1987, Moving Portland and Beyond to an Environmentally Sustainable Future. 503-238-4502 www.solarenergyoregon.com Better one's House too little one day than too big all the Year after. From: Jason Szumlanski ja...@fafcosolar.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 8:17 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Home Depot solar? We were recently asked to fix a royal mess by a SDHW installer contracted via Home Depot. Not fun. 60+ systems with various deficiencies. The installer was to blame, not HD. HD is not selling PV in our market (fortunately). Jason Szumlanski -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jesse Dahl Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 10:39 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Home Depot solar? Anyone out there have any experience with Home Depot's solar installers? Jesse ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org NABCEP Certified PV Installer (# 032611-184) ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Home Depot solar?
HD hires local contractors to install their systems. I've worked for a couple of quality-oriented companies that have explored this relationship but both determined that the margins were just too thin. Andrew Truitt MSc, LEED GA Truitt Renewable Energy Consulting 202 486-7507 http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andrew-truitt/8/622/713 Please excuse brevity and typos - this message was typed on tiny keys. On Sep 29, 2011 9:17 AM, Jason Szumlanski ja...@fafcosolar.com wrote: ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding on to existing PV System
How about feeding both systems into an AC combining subpanel before feeding the main load center? Often the calculations required will allow you to do more backfeeding than the simple backfeeding a load center with individual breakers. -Glenn From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 11:49 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding on to existing PV System We've been contracted to add on to an existing PV system in a residence. The existing system has a 30A 2P Breaker on a 200A rated panel with a 200A main breaker. The new system would require a 15A breaker, which would exceed the limit in NEC 690.64(B)(2). The existing system has a fusible AC disconnect mounted next to the meter. This was originally intended as the utility external disconnect. The utility no longer requires a disconnect, but if we do a supply side connection, we would need a fusible AC disconnect anyway for the new system. I would collocate the new disconnect with the old. Does anyone see any problem with doing a supply size connection for the new system? Any labeling snags that I might need to consider? Jason Szumlanski Fafco Solar ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding on to existing PV System
Maybe you can put in a smaller main breaker? Jesse Sent from my iPhone On Sep 29, 2011, at 1:39 PM, Glenn Burt glenn.b...@glbcc.com wrote: How about feeding both systems into an AC combining subpanel before feeding the main load center? Often the calculations required will allow you to do more backfeeding than the simple backfeeding a load center with individual breakers. -Glenn From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 11:49 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding on to existing PV System We’ve been contracted to add on to an existing PV system in a residence. The existing system has a 30A 2P Breaker on a 200A rated panel with a 200A main breaker. The new system would require a 15A breaker, which would exceed the limit in NEC 690.64(B)(2). The existing system has a fusible AC disconnect mounted next to the meter. This was originally intended as the utility external disconnect. The utility no longer requires a disconnect, but if we do a supply side connection, we would need a fusible AC disconnect anyway for the new system. I would collocate the new disconnect with the old. Does anyone see any problem with doing a supply size connection for the new system? Any labeling snags that I might need to consider? Jason Szumlanski Fafco Solar ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding on to existing PV System
That's not a bad idea, except that 690.64(B)(2) requires that the breaker directly connected to each inverter(s) must be used for the calculation. I have an existing SB5000 with a 30A breaker and a new string of nine Enphase M215's requiring a 15A breaker. If you combine these in a 100A or higher rated subpanel with a 40A main breaker, you still calculate the total current supplying the busbar in the main distribution panel based on 200A + 30A + 15A = 245A (with 30A and 15A being the overcurrent protection directly connected to the inverters). This exceeds the 120% rule by 5A. It also requires that the ampacity of the conductors between the two panels be 85A / 1.2 = 70.83A (assuming a 40A backfeed breaker in the main distribution panel). If your interpretation is different, please let me know! If my interpretation is correct, I like the idea of just adding a fusible disconnect and using #10 conductors all the way to the tap. That would be the most cost effective solution I believe, and since there is no foreseeable further system rating increases, the advantage of a subpanel is reduced. Thanks for all the other suggestions provided. Unfortunately I can't put in smaller main breaker, and the busbar in the main panel is definitely rated 200A. Jason Szumlanski Fafco Solar From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 2:40 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding on to existing PV System How about feeding both systems into an AC combining subpanel before feeding the main load center? Often the calculations required will allow you to do more backfeeding than the simple backfeeding a load center with individual breakers. -Glenn From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 11:49 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding on to existing PV System We've been contracted to add on to an existing PV system in a residence. The existing system has a 30A 2P Breaker on a 200A rated panel with a 200A main breaker. The new system would require a 15A breaker, which would exceed the limit in NEC 690.64(B)(2). The existing system has a fusible AC disconnect mounted next to the meter. This was originally intended as the utility external disconnect. The utility no longer requires a disconnect, but if we do a supply side connection, we would need a fusible AC disconnect anyway for the new system. I would collocate the new disconnect with the old. Does anyone see any problem with doing a supply size connection for the new system? Any labeling snags that I might need to consider? Jason Szumlanski Fafco Solar ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] ground
Does anyone know if it is ok to use the rebar in a pole mount foundation as a ufer ground? I need to ask the inspector too, but thought I'd ask here first. Todd Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding on to existing PV System
Jason: SB 5000 = 21A @ 240V, 21A x 1.25 = 26.3A needs 30A breaker M215 = 0.9 A @ 240V, 0.9A x 9 = 8.1 A, 8.1 x 1.25 = 10.1A needs 15A breaker. (Or that rounded to 10A and use a 10A breaker)? 26.3A + 10.1A = 36.4 A needs 40A breaker So, get a new 100A main lug subpanel. Connect it to a 40A breaker in the existing main panel. Move the existing 30A breaker into the new subpanel and install the new 15A breaker into the same. Mark Frye Berkeley Solar Electric Systems 303 Redbud Way Nevada City, CA 95959 (530) 401-8024 http://www.berkeleysolar.com/ www.berkeleysolar.com _ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 12:55 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding on to existing PV System That's not a bad idea, except that 690.64(B)(2) requires that the breaker directly connected to each inverter(s) must be used for the calculation. I have an existing SB5000 with a 30A breaker and a new string of nine Enphase M215's requiring a 15A breaker. If you combine these in a 100A or higher rated subpanel with a 40A main breaker, you still calculate the total current supplying the busbar in the main distribution panel based on 200A + 30A + 15A = 245A (with 30A and 15A being the overcurrent protection directly connected to the inverters). This exceeds the 120% rule by 5A. It also requires that the ampacity of the conductors between the two panels be 85A / 1.2 = 70.83A (assuming a 40A backfeed breaker in the main distribution panel). If your interpretation is different, please let me know! If my interpretation is correct, I like the idea of just adding a fusible disconnect and using #10 conductors all the way to the tap. That would be the most cost effective solution I believe, and since there is no foreseeable further system rating increases, the advantage of a subpanel is reduced. Thanks for all the other suggestions provided. Unfortunately I can't put in smaller main breaker, and the busbar in the main panel is definitely rated 200A. Jason Szumlanski Fafco Solar From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 2:40 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding on to existing PV System How about feeding both systems into an AC combining subpanel before feeding the main load center? Often the calculations required will allow you to do more backfeeding than the simple backfeeding a load center with individual breakers. -Glenn From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 11:49 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding on to existing PV System We've been contracted to add on to an existing PV system in a residence. The existing system has a 30A 2P Breaker on a 200A rated panel with a 200A main breaker. The new system would require a 15A breaker, which would exceed the limit in NEC 690.64(B)(2). The existing system has a fusible AC disconnect mounted next to the meter. This was originally intended as the utility external disconnect. The utility no longer requires a disconnect, but if we do a supply side connection, we would need a fusible AC disconnect anyway for the new system. I would collocate the new disconnect with the old. Does anyone see any problem with doing a supply size connection for the new system? Any labeling snags that I might need to consider? Jason Szumlanski Fafco Solar ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding on to existing PV System
I understand what you are saying about the 40A breaker, but according to 690.64(B)(2), ...with panelboards connected in series, the rating of the *first* overcurrent device connected *directly* to the output of the inverters shall be used in the calculations for *all* busbars and conductors. The way I have seen that interpreted is that the main distribution panel needs to be rated to support 120% of the two inverter circuits plus the main breaker, regardless of the fact that there is a 40A backfeed breaker in the main panel. 200+30+15 200 x 1.2 I know it doesn't make much sense, but that's the way it's been interpreted around here. It stands to reason that this applies only to the PV subpanel busbar and the conductors between the panels, and that the calculation for those should be: (30 + 15 + 40) / 1.2 = 70.83A required ampacity ...and the calculation for the main distribution panel should be: (200 + 40) / 1.2 = 200A required ampacity ... but that's not what I am being told. Jason Szumlanski Fafco Solar From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Frye Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 4:19 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding on to existing PV System Jason: SB 5000 = 21A @ 240V, 21A x 1.25 = 26.3A needs 30A breaker M215 = 0.9 A @ 240V, 0.9A x 9 = 8.1 A, 8.1 x 1.25 = 10.1A needs 15A breaker. (Or that rounded to 10A and use a 10A breaker)? 26.3A + 10.1A = 36.4 A needs 40A breaker So, get a new 100A main lug subpanel. Connect it to a 40A breaker in the existing main panel. Move the existing 30A breaker into the new subpanel and install the new 15A breaker into the same. Mark Frye Berkeley Solar Electric Systems 303 Redbud Way Nevada City, CA 95959 (530) 401-8024 www.berkeleysolar.com http://www.berkeleysolar.com/ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 12:55 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding on to existing PV System That's not a bad idea, except that 690.64(B)(2) requires that the breaker directly connected to each inverter(s) must be used for the calculation. I have an existing SB5000 with a 30A breaker and a new string of nine Enphase M215's requiring a 15A breaker. If you combine these in a 100A or higher rated subpanel with a 40A main breaker, you still calculate the total current supplying the busbar in the main distribution panel based on 200A + 30A + 15A = 245A (with 30A and 15A being the overcurrent protection directly connected to the inverters). This exceeds the 120% rule by 5A. It also requires that the ampacity of the conductors between the two panels be 85A / 1.2 = 70.83A (assuming a 40A backfeed breaker in the main distribution panel). If your interpretation is different, please let me know! If my interpretation is correct, I like the idea of just adding a fusible disconnect and using #10 conductors all the way to the tap. That would be the most cost effective solution I believe, and since there is no foreseeable further system rating increases, the advantage of a subpanel is reduced. Thanks for all the other suggestions provided. Unfortunately I can't put in smaller main breaker, and the busbar in the main panel is definitely rated 200A. Jason Szumlanski Fafco Solar From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 2:40 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding on to existing PV System How about feeding both systems into an AC combining subpanel before feeding the main load center? Often the calculations required will allow you to do more backfeeding than the simple backfeeding a load center with individual breakers. -Glenn From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 11:49 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Adding on to existing PV System We've been contracted to add on to an existing PV system in a residence. The existing system has a 30A 2P Breaker on a 200A rated panel with a 200A main breaker. The new system would require a 15A breaker, which would exceed the limit in NEC 690.64(B)(2). The existing system has a fusible AC disconnect mounted next to the meter. This was originally intended as the utility external disconnect. The utility no longer requires a disconnect, but if we do a supply side connection, we would need a fusible AC disconnect anyway for the new system. I would collocate the new disconnect with the old. Does anyone see any problem with doing a supply size connection for the new system? Any labeling snags that I might need to consider? Jason
Re: [RE-wrenches] ground
See NEC 250.52. If there is 10 feet of pipe in the ground, that qualifies as a grounding electrode. The foundation rebar qualifies as a grounding electrode too, but it must have a length of at least 20 feet. If using multiple pieces to get 20 feet they must be bonded (or simply wired) together. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar, Inc. toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote: Does anyone know if it is ok to use the rebar in a pole mount foundation as a ufer ground? I need to ask the inspector too, but thought I'd ask here first. Todd ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding on to existing PV System
OK, this subject has come up before and this is a gray area in the Code. What is the definition of the output of the inverters. I have sucessfully argued that the output of the inverters is the last point in the circuit where the circuit is free of premise load circuits. In this case it would be the 40A breaker connecting the dedicated PV load center to the busbar of the main panel. So...it is between you and you inspector. Tell him you are going to put a label on the subpanel that says something to the effect of Dedicated inverter output accumulation subpanel. Add no additional circuits. I think this is a much better interpretation and method that preserves a clean and functional load side connection topology. I think most reasonable inspectors would agree as well. Good Luck. Mark Frye Berkeley Solar Electric Systems 303 Redbud Way Nevada City, CA 95959 (530) 401-8024 http://www.berkeleysolar.com/ www.berkeleysolar.com _ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 1:33 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding on to existing PV System I understand what you are saying about the 40A breaker, but according to 690.64(B)(2), .with panelboards connected in series, the rating of the *first* overcurrent device connected *directly* to the output of the inverters shall be used in the calculations for *all* busbars and conductors. The way I have seen that interpreted is that the main distribution panel needs to be rated to support 120% of the two inverter circuits plus the main breaker, regardless of the fact that there is a 40A backfeed breaker in the main panel. 200+30+15 200 x 1.2 I know it doesn't make much sense, but that's the way it's been interpreted around here. It stands to reason that this applies only to the PV subpanel busbar and the conductors between the panels, and that the calculation for those should be: (30 + 15 + 40) / 1.2 = 70.83A required ampacity .and the calculation for the main distribution panel should be: (200 + 40) / 1.2 = 200A required ampacity . but that's not what I am being told. Jason Szumlanski Fafco Solar From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Frye Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 4:19 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding on to existing PV System Jason: SB 5000 = 21A @ 240V, 21A x 1.25 = 26.3A needs 30A breaker M215 = 0.9 A @ 240V, 0.9A x 9 = 8.1 A, 8.1 x 1.25 = 10.1A needs 15A breaker. (Or that rounded to 10A and use a 10A breaker)? 26.3A + 10.1A = 36.4 A needs 40A breaker So, get a new 100A main lug subpanel. Connect it to a 40A breaker in the existing main panel. Move the existing 30A breaker into the new subpanel and install the new 15A breaker into the same. Mark Frye Berkeley Solar Electric Systems 303 Redbud Way Nevada City, CA 95959 (530) 401-8024 http://www.berkeleysolar.com/ www.berkeleysolar.com _ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 12:55 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding on to existing PV System That's not a bad idea, except that 690.64(B)(2) requires that the breaker directly connected to each inverter(s) must be used for the calculation. I have an existing SB5000 with a 30A breaker and a new string of nine Enphase M215's requiring a 15A breaker. If you combine these in a 100A or higher rated subpanel with a 40A main breaker, you still calculate the total current supplying the busbar in the main distribution panel based on 200A + 30A + 15A = 245A (with 30A and 15A being the overcurrent protection directly connected to the inverters). This exceeds the 120% rule by 5A. It also requires that the ampacity of the conductors between the two panels be 85A / 1.2 = 70.83A (assuming a 40A backfeed breaker in the main distribution panel). If your interpretation is different, please let me know! If my interpretation is correct, I like the idea of just adding a fusible disconnect and using #10 conductors all the way to the tap. That would be the most cost effective solution I believe, and since there is no foreseeable further system rating increases, the advantage of a subpanel is reduced. Thanks for all the other suggestions provided. Unfortunately I can't put in smaller main breaker, and the busbar in the main panel is definitely rated 200A. Jason Szumlanski Fafco Solar From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 2:40 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding on to existing PV System How about feeding both systems into an AC combining subpanel
Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding on to existing PV System
Agreed. The intent of the change to 690.64(B) in NEC 2008 was not to restrict the use of a dedicated inverter aggregation subpanel for amp-shaving purposed (meaning the panel is being used to reduce the PV CB size ultimately used for 120% rule calculations). The intent was to clarify the that there is no need to apply the 120% rule to progressively larger upstream breakers when the interconnection happens in a subpanel. A reasonable inspector or jurisdiction will interpret the Code consistent with its intent, not according to an unintended consequence. However, you may have to educate them about the distinction between the two possible interpretations. David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor SolarPro magazine On 9/29/11 1:50 PM, Mark Frye ma...@berkeleysolar.com wrote: OK, this subject has come up before and this is a gray area in the Code. What is the definition of the output of the inverters. I have sucessfully argued that the output of the inverters is the last point in the circuit where the circuit is free of premise load circuits. In this case it would be the 40A breaker connecting the dedicated PV load center to the busbar of the main panel. So...it is between you and you inspector. Tell him you are going to put a label on the subpanel that says something to the effect of Dedicated inverter output accumulation subpanel. Add no additional circuits. I think this is a much better interpretation and method that preserves a clean and functional load side connection topology. I think most reasonable inspectors would agree as well. Good Luck. Mark Frye Berkeley Solar Electric Systems 303 Redbud Way Nevada City, CA 95959 (530) 401-8024 www.berkeleysolar.com http://www.berkeleysolar.com/ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 1:33 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding on to existing PV System I understand what you are saying about the 40A breaker, but according to 690.64(B)(2), ³with panelboards connected in series, the rating of the *first* overcurrent device connected *directly* to the output of the inverters shall be used in the calculations for *all* busbars and conductors.² The way I have seen that interpreted is that the main distribution panel needs to be rated to support 120% of the two inverter circuits plus the main breaker, regardless of the fact that there is a 40A backfeed breaker in the main panel. 200+30+15 200 x 1.2 I know it doesn¹t make much sense, but that¹s the way it¹s been interpreted around here. It stands to reason that this applies only to the PV subpanel busbar and the conductors between the panels, and that the calculation for those should be: (30 + 15 + 40) / 1.2 = 70.83A required ampacity and the calculation for the main distribution panel should be: (200 + 40) / 1.2 = 200A required ampacity but that¹s not what I am being told. Jason Szumlanski Fafco Solar From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mark Frye Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 4:19 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding on to existing PV System Jason: SB 5000 = 21A @ 240V, 21A x 1.25 = 26.3A needs 30A breaker M215 = 0.9 A @ 240V, 0.9A x 9 = 8.1 A, 8.1 x 1.25 = 10.1A needs 15A breaker. (Or that rounded to 10A and use a 10A breaker)? 26.3A + 10.1A = 36.4 A needs 40A breaker So, get a new 100A main lug subpanel. Connect it to a 40A breaker in the existing main panel. Move the existing 30A breaker into the new subpanel and install the new 15A breaker into the same. Mark Frye Berkeley Solar Electric Systems 303 Redbud Way Nevada City, CA 95959 (530) 401-8024 www.berkeleysolar.com http://www.berkeleysolar.com/ From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 12:55 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Adding on to existing PV System That¹s not a bad idea, except that 690.64(B)(2) requires that the breaker directly connected to each inverter(s) must be used for the calculation. I have an existing SB5000 with a 30A breaker and a new string of nine Enphase M215¹s requiring a 15A breaker. If you combine these in a 100A or higher rated subpanel with a 40A main breaker, you still calculate the total current supplying the busbar in the main distribution panel based on 200A + 30A + 15A = 245A (with 30A and 15A being the overcurrent protection directly connected to the inverters). This exceeds the 120% rule by 5A. It also requires that the ampacity of the conductors between the two panels be 85A / 1.2 = 70.83A (assuming a 40A backfeed breaker in the main distribution panel). If your interpretation is
Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase M190 source?
Hey Dave, We have 4 of these left over from a job earlier in the year. Do you still have need for these? Sorry for the delayed response. Hope you are well, Howie -- Howie Michaelson NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer Catamount Solar, LLC Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service VT Solar Electric Hot Water Incentive Partner http://www.CatamountSolar.com 802-272-0004 On Mon, September 12, 2011 8:54 am, Dave Palumbo wrote: I'm looking for 18 enphase M-190's for an installation here in Vermont. 72 cell modules 185 Watts. Anybody know of a source? David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 www.independentpowerllc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installer Vermont Solar Partner 23 Years Experience, (802) 888-7194 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
