[RE-wrenches] unusual module

[Kent Osterberg]

Wrenches,

A customer dropped off an unusual PV module a couple days ago. It's not 
a design that I'm familiar with. I'm hoping that the vast wealth of 
distributed knowledge contained in the RE-Wrenches may recognize it and 
explain its purpose.


The label looks like a shiny piece of foil, but with light angled on it 
just right way the name Solarex is visible as are many words on the 
label template. None of the values are legible. It is a little smaller 
than a MSX-60. It has 40 cells that are wired in four parallel strings 
of ten. Open circuit voltage is about 6 volts. Shorted it put out 4 amps 
in bright but very overcast conditions. I suspect that it would put out 
8 to 10 amps at STC. There are two j-boxes, one on each end, with very 
substantial terminals. It still operates, but obviously it isn't much 
use for charging a battery, even a six volt one. Anyone familiar with a 
low-voltage high-current Solarex module.


--
Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
www.bluemountainsolar.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid ground mount

[Drake]

Allan,

I haven't had any off grid, adjustable roof mount systems in years, 
but have one coming up.  What is the best product these days?


Thanks,

Drake

At 03:40 PM 3/23/2012, you wrote:

William,
All of our off grid is residential. In general we never do ground 
mount for off grid. With rare and specific exception we use pole-top 
racking. This is simply because pole top racks hold the entire array 
in balance over a single pivot, making seasonal adjustment easy for 
one person. Ground mount puts the pivot at the bottom edge of an 
array, requiring at least two people to adjust: one or more to lift 
and one to loosen/tighten the leg sliders.


Knowing the depth of your professional competence, you know this 
already, and this request is about a specific job. But most off-grid 
Wrenches may be in the same case, and thus not able to easily answer 
your question.


Having used UniRac a few times for adjustable roof/ground racking, I 
certainly would recommend against their adjustable tilt legs. Too 
easy for homeowners to loosen the pinch bolt too far and lose the 
twist-nut. In years past (I haven't used it in recent years) DP&W 
made good adjustable racking.

Allan

Allan Sindelar
al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Positive Energy, Inc.
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
505 424-1112
www.positiveenergysolar.com




On 3/23/2012 8:04 AM, Solarguy wrote:


Sunearth CompRail is an edge captive type railing that works great 
when rear access is possible. Its positive steel to steel 
attachment with SS bolts and threaded inserts is superior to Unirac 
Sunframe with its sheet metal attachment screw mount.

http://sunearthinc.com

Jim Duncan
North Texas renewable Energy
www.ntrei.com
NABCEP PV 031310-57
TECL-27398
nt...@1scom.net
817.917.0527

--
-Original Message-
From: 
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller

Sent: Friday, March 23, 2012 2:21 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid ground mount

Friends:

I am curious about what the rest of you are using for off-grid ground mount
racks.   We need a tilt angle of 45 degrees.

Thanks in advance.

William Miller


Miller Solar
Voice :805-438-5600
email: will...@millersolar.com
http://millersolar.com
License No. C-10-773985

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Drake Chamberlin
ATHENS ELECTRIC LLC
OH License 44810
CO license 3773
NABCEP Certified PV
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Re: [RE-wrenches] unusual module

[Nathan Jones]

Kent,
Does it have jumpers that would lower the current and double the voltage?Maybe 
unbridged and still attached? I have a dozen Solec modules that were either 12 
or 24 volt nominal output.It has been a long time since I was in the J boxes 
but it seems like they may have looked as you are describing although there is 
only one J box.
Nathan Jones
Power Source Solar
417-827-0738


--
On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 9:19 PM CDT Kent Osterberg wrote:

>Wrenches,
>
>A customer dropped off an unusual PV module a couple days ago. It's not a 
>design that I'm familiar with. I'm hoping that the vast wealth of distributed 
>knowledge contained in the RE-Wrenches may recognize it and explain its 
>purpose.
>
>The label looks like a shiny piece of foil, but with light angled on it just 
>right way the name Solarex is visible as are many words on the label template. 
>None of the values are legible. It is a little smaller than a MSX-60. It has 
>40 cells that are wired in four parallel strings of ten. Open circuit voltage 
>is about 6 volts. Shorted it put out 4 amps in bright but very overcast 
>conditions. I suspect that it would put out 8 to 10 amps at STC. There are two 
>j-boxes, one on each end, with very substantial terminals. It still operates, 
>but obviously it isn't much use for charging a battery, even a six volt one. 
>Anyone familiar with a low-voltage high-current Solarex module.
>
>-- Kent Osterberg
>Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
>www.bluemountainsolar.com
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] unusual module

[Kent Osterberg]

Nathan,

There are no jumpers, each j-box has a single terminal. It has 4" square 
multi-crystalline cells, a 2" bronze colored frame, and measures 17.5" x 
42"; just a little smaller than a MSX-60.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
www.bluemountainsolar.com


On 3/24/2012 10:26 AM, Nathan Jones wrote:


Kent,
Does it have jumpers that would lower the current and double the voltage?Maybe 
unbridged and still attached? I have a dozen Solec modules that were either 12 
or 24 volt nominal output.It has been a long time since I was in the J boxes 
but it seems like they may have looked as you are describing although there is 
only one J box.
Nathan Jones
Power Source Solar
417-827-0738


--
On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 9:19 PM CDT Kent Osterberg wrote:


Wrenches,

A customer dropped off an unusual PV module a couple days ago. It's not a 
design that I'm familiar with. I'm hoping that the vast wealth of distributed 
knowledge contained in the RE-Wrenches may recognize it and explain its purpose.

The label looks like a shiny piece of foil, but with light angled on it just 
right way the name Solarex is visible as are many words on the label template. 
None of the values are legible. It is a little smaller than a MSX-60. It has 40 
cells that are wired in four parallel strings of ten. Open circuit voltage is 
about 6 volts. Shorted it put out 4 amps in bright but very overcast 
conditions. I suspect that it would put out 8 to 10 amps at STC. There are two 
j-boxes, one on each end, with very substantial terminals. It still operates, 
but obviously it isn't much use for charging a battery, even a six volt one. 
Anyone familiar with a low-voltage high-current Solarex module.

-- Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
www.bluemountainsolar.com


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[RE-wrenches] Off-grid ground mount: Can it be done cheaper

[William Miller]

Daryl:

Thanks for the photos and description of the mounts you are installing.  We 
have installed many of the DPW ground mount systems in similar 
configurations. 
http://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Portfolio/ground-mount/engineered_ground_mount.jpg


We are realizing two things:

1. Concrete footings of any type are expensive.  The cost of excavation, 
forming and concrete really adds up.


2. For off-grid, when the module tilt angle increases to 45 degrees, the 
foundations need to be substantial.  During one install we had our heavy PV 
trailer blow over due to high winds.  We decided to have the foundations 
reviewed by an engineer and when we received the results, we had to go back 
and double our piers and strut.  We had bid the job so the updates came out 
of our 
pocket.  See: 
http://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Portfolio/ground-mount/full_size_photos/engineered_ground_mount.JPG


We are now required by the AHJ to provide a wet stamp from a structural 
engineer for every PV structure over 6 feet in height.  This means every 
off-grid.  We know the engineers will require massive foundations which 
will cost a lot.  I am looking for a cheaper way to install these racks.  I 
have not found it yet.


Thanks for your input.

William Miller


At 04:37 AM 3/24/2012, you wrote:

William,
   I'm attaching a picture of a system we just completed in Eleuthera
using DPW racks on concrete pilings. We tied the pilings and rebar
reinforcement into the limestone bedrock with rebar down 16 inches and
used 12 inch sono tubes as forms.
   We do a lot of ground mounting since our summer work is mostly in New
England and snow removal is always a factor. I have two pole mounted
arrays at my home, but it is the most expensive option, and therefore
do a lot of this type of ground mounting. We also have an economical
"cribworks" type structure made from solid railroad ties and weighing
in at about 2800 lbs each that we will sometimes offer to customers in
off grid situations.

Daryl


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[RE-wrenches] Unusual Module

[Hilton Dier III]

Kent,

I had modules like those back in the early 1990s, when I first went off 
grid. They are designed to be wired in sets of three for 12V nominal, 
18Voc. If the EVA encapsulant is a bit browned it is probably leftover 
from the Carrizo project, the largest of its time. The Carrizo project 
had reflectors to increase output but they cooked the adhesive. The 
owners eventually lost their beneficial rate and realized they would 
make more money selling off the modules than selling the electricity. 
Many homesteaders benefited.


Hilton

The label looks like a shiny piece of foil, but with light angled on it
just right way the name Solarex is visible as are many words on the
label template. None of the values are legible. It is a little smaller
than a MSX-60. It has 40 cells that are wired in four parallel strings
of ten. Open circuit voltage is about 6 volts. Shorted it put out 4 amps
in bright but very overcast conditions. I suspect that it would put out
8 to 10 amps at STC. There are two j-boxes, one on each end, with very
substantial terminals. It still operates, but obviously it isn't much
use for charging a battery, even a six volt one. Anyone familiar with a
low-voltage high-current Solarex module.



--
Hilton Dier III
Renewable Energy Design
Partner, Solar Gain LLC
renewabledesign.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Unusual Module

[Nathan Jones]

Hilton,
That description sounds like some old modules I used to have. I thought they 
were from the ARCO project. Same circumstances I think. As I recall the modules 
were Tri Lams (not sure on the proper name for them) but they were also 3 in 
series for 12 volt nominal. At least the ones I had were. They were the lowest 
grade, or most burned up of the scoring system used to resell them. Mud was the 
term applied to their grade I think. They were STI 120 watt decaled but put out 
around 75 watts by the time I got them. That was late 90s 
 Sold them with that place so no idea what they are putting out today.
Nathan
--
On Sat, Mar 24, 2012 1:22 PM CDT Hilton Dier III wrote:

>Kent,
>
>I had modules like those back in the early 1990s, when I first went off grid. 
>They are designed to be wired in sets of three for 12V nominal, 18Voc. If the 
>EVA encapsulant is a bit browned it is probably leftover from the Carrizo 
>project, the largest of its time. The Carrizo project had reflectors to 
>increase output but they cooked the adhesive. The owners eventually lost their 
>beneficial rate and realized they would make more money selling off the 
>modules than selling the electricity. Many homesteaders benefited.
>
>Hilton
>
>The label looks like a shiny piece of foil, but with light angled on it
>just right way the name Solarex is visible as are many words on the
>label template. None of the values are legible. It is a little smaller
>than a MSX-60. It has 40 cells that are wired in four parallel strings
>of ten. Open circuit voltage is about 6 volts. Shorted it put out 4 amps
>in bright but very overcast conditions. I suspect that it would put out
>8 to 10 amps at STC. There are two j-boxes, one on each end, with very
>substantial terminals. It still operates, but obviously it isn't much
>use for charging a battery, even a six volt one. Anyone familiar with a
>low-voltage high-current Solarex module.
>
>
>
>-- Hilton Dier III
>Renewable Energy Design
>Partner, Solar Gain LLC
>renewabledesign.com
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Unusual Module

[Allan Sindelar]

  
  
Hilton,
The only issue I take with your suggestion that these are Carrizo
modules is that as far as I know, all of the Carrizo modules (used
at the Carrisa Plains PV power plant near Paso Robles CA from
1984-1990) were made by Arco, not Solarex.

Also, the Carrizo Quad-Lams required four in series, not three. A
few of the better modules could reach 16V in hot weather in sets of
three, but the vast majority couldn't, especially after premature
degradation caused by the use of reflectors on most of the tracked
arrays. They were called Quad-Lams by Carrizo Solar (who bought the
plant and cut them up for resale) for this reason. Photocomm sold
some as sets of three (and called them Tri-Lams) in the early 90s,
but after haranguing by Richard Perez of Home Power and others,
supplied a fourth module to purchasers, as sets of three had
insufficient MPP voltage to EQ a 12V battery during summer heat.
Allan


  
  
  Allan Sindelar
  al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic
  Installer
  NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
  New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
  Positive Energy, Inc.
  3201 Calle Marie
  Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
  505 424-1112
  www.positiveenergysolar.com
  
  
  
   

On 3/24/2012 12:22 PM, Hilton Dier III wrote:
Kent,
  
  
  I had modules like those back in the early 1990s, when I first
  went off grid. They are designed to be wired in sets of three for
  12V nominal, 18Voc. If the EVA encapsulant is a bit browned it is
  probably leftover from the Carrizo project, the largest of its
  time. The Carrizo project had reflectors to increase output but
  they cooked the adhesive. The owners eventually lost their
  beneficial rate and realized they would make more money selling
  off the modules than selling the electricity. Many homesteaders
  benefited.
  
  
  Hilton
  
  
  The label looks like a shiny piece of foil, but with light angled
  on it
  
  just right way the name Solarex is visible as are many words on
  the
  
  label template. None of the values are legible. It is a little
  smaller
  
  than a MSX-60. It has 40 cells that are wired in four parallel
  strings
  
  of ten. Open circuit voltage is about 6 volts. Shorted it put out
  4 amps
  
  in bright but very overcast conditions. I suspect that it would
  put out
  
  8 to 10 amps at STC. There are two j-boxes, one on each end, with
  very
  
  substantial terminals. It still operates, but obviously it isn't
  much
  
  use for charging a battery, even a six volt one. Anyone familiar
  with a
  
  low-voltage high-current Solarex module.
  
  
  
  

  

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Unusual Module

[Kent Osterberg]

Allan,

Your right about the modules from Carrizo being made by Arco. And 
weren't they mono-crystalline? Three of these modules in series would be 
30 cells and not enough voltage for charging a 12-volt battery. But I 
think that's the biggest similarity to a Quad-Lam.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
www.bluemountainsolar.com


On 3/24/2012 12:27 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:

Hilton,
The only issue I take with your suggestion that these are Carrizo 
modules is that as far as I know, all of the Carrizo modules (used at 
the Carrisa Plains PV power plant near Paso Robles CA from 1984-1990) 
were made by Arco, not Solarex.


Also, the Carrizo Quad-Lams required four in series, not three. A few 
of the better modules could reach 16V in hot weather in sets of three, 
but the vast majority couldn't, especially after premature degradation 
caused by the use of reflectors on most of the tracked arrays. They 
were called Quad-Lams by Carrizo Solar (who bought the plant and cut 
them up for resale) for this reason. Photocomm sold some as sets of 
three (and called them Tri-Lams) in the early 90s, but after 
haranguing by Richard Perez of Home Power and others, supplied a 
fourth module to purchasers, as sets of three had insufficient MPP 
voltage to EQ a 12V battery during summer heat.

Allan

*Allan Sindelar*
_Allan@positiveenergysolar.com_ 
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
*Positive Energy, Inc.*
3201 Calle Marie
Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
*505 424-1112*
_www.positiveenergysolar.com_ 

*
*



On 3/24/2012 12:22 PM, Hilton Dier III wrote:

Kent,

I had modules like those back in the early 1990s, when I first went 
off grid. They are designed to be wired in sets of three for 12V 
nominal, 18Voc. If the EVA encapsulant is a bit browned it is 
probably leftover from the Carrizo project, the largest of its time. 
The Carrizo project had reflectors to increase output but they cooked 
the adhesive. The owners eventually lost their beneficial rate and 
realized they would make more money selling off the modules than 
selling the electricity. Many homesteaders benefited.


Hilton

The label looks like a shiny piece of foil, but with light angled on it
just right way the name Solarex is visible as are many words on the
label template. None of the values are legible. It is a little smaller
than a MSX-60. It has 40 cells that are wired in four parallel strings
of ten. Open circuit voltage is about 6 volts. Shorted it put out 4 amps
in bright but very overcast conditions. I suspect that it would put out
8 to 10 amps at STC. There are two j-boxes, one on each end, with very
substantial terminals. It still operates, but obviously it isn't much
use for charging a battery, even a six volt one. Anyone familiar with a
low-voltage high-current Solarex module.


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid ground mount: Can it be done cheaper

[Kent Osterberg]

William,

There are auger mounted systems that don't require any concrete. For 
locations with suitable soil, they probably save some time and are a 
little less expensive than concrete. But it takes a substantial 
structure to withstand 85 mph, or greater, winds. There's no getting 
around the physics of that.


Oregon also requires PV mounting structures to be engineered unless they 
meet conditions prescribed in the solar installation code. The 
prescriptive rules only apply to roof mounted systems, so ground mounts 
require a structural engineer to sign off on the construction plans.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
www.bluemountainsolar.com


On 3/24/2012 10:29 AM, William Miller wrote:

Daryl:

Thanks for the photos and description of the mounts you are 
installing.  We have installed many of the DPW ground mount systems in 
similar configurations. 
http://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Portfolio/ground-mount/engineered_ground_mount.jpg


We are realizing two things:

1. Concrete footings of any type are expensive.  The cost of 
excavation, forming and concrete really adds up.


2. For off-grid, when the module tilt angle increases to 45 degrees, 
the foundations need to be substantial.  During one install we had our 
heavy PV trailer blow over due to high winds.  We decided to have the 
foundations reviewed by an engineer and when we received the results, 
we had to go back and double our piers and strut.  We had bid the job 
so the updates came out of our pocket.  See: 
http://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Portfolio/ground-mount/full_size_photos/engineered_ground_mount.JPG


We are now required by the AHJ to provide a wet stamp from a 
structural engineer for every PV structure over 6 feet in height.  
This means every off-grid.  We know the engineers will require massive 
foundations which will cost a lot.  I am looking for a cheaper way to 
install these racks.  I have not found it yet.


Thanks for your input.

William Miller


At 04:37 AM 3/24/2012, you wrote:

William,
   I'm attaching a picture of a system we just completed in Eleuthera
using DPW racks on concrete pilings. We tied the pilings and rebar
reinforcement into the limestone bedrock with rebar down 16 inches and
used 12 inch sono tubes as forms.
   We do a lot of ground mounting since our summer work is mostly in New
England and snow removal is always a factor. I have two pole mounted
arrays at my home, but it is the most expensive option, and therefore
do a lot of this type of ground mounting. We also have an economical
"cribworks" type structure made from solid railroad ties and weighing
in at about 2800 lbs each that we will sometimes offer to customers in
off grid situations.

Daryl





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Re: [RE-wrenches] Unusual Module

[mark]

Carrizo had a grade of modules that did not see concentrator use, and they sold an assembly of 3 of these called "Super Gold Tri-Lams."  I sold a truckload of them, and they are still kicking butt today.The VOC is 20 or 21V.  They were rated at 105W but performed as well as the AstroPower 120W modules I was selling at the time.  I never had a single failure with Carrizo products; not even the well cooked quad-lams that indeed required 4 modules for year round use.I can't say the same for the "Solar Value" 120W modules I was selling at the same time or shortly afterword.  These are beginning to have interconnect failures which I am able to repair.  Luckily my clients aren't too demanding.Just a bit of history/reminiscing - the "unusual module" is clearly not one of these.


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Unusual Module
From: Kent Osterberg 
Date: Sat, March 24, 2012 4:35 pm
To: al...@positiveenergysolar.com,  RE-wrenches


 Allan,  Your right about the modules from Carrizo being made by Arco. And weren't they mono-crystalline? Three of these modules in series would be 30 cells and not enough voltage for charging a 12-volt battery. But I think that's the biggest similarity to a Quad-Lam.   Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
www.bluemountainsolar.com

 On 3/24/2012 12:27 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:   Hilton, The only issue I take with your suggestion that these are Carrizo modules is that as far as I know, all of the Carrizo modules (used at the Carrisa Plains PV power plant near Paso Robles CA from 1984-1990) were made by Arco, not Solarex.  Also, the Carrizo Quad-Lams required four in series, not three. A few of the better modules could reach 16V in hot weather in sets of three, but the vast majority couldn't, especially after premature degradation caused by the use of reflectors on most of the tracked arrays. They were called Quad-Lams by Carrizo Solar (who bought the plant and cut them up for resale) for this reason. Photocomm sold some as sets of three (and called them Tri-Lams) in the early 90s, but after haranguing by Richard Perez of Home Power and others, supplied a fourth module to purchasers, as sets of three had insufficient MPP voltage to EQ a 12V battery during summer heat. Allan Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Positive Energy, Inc. 3201 Calle Marie Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.positiveenergysolar.com   On 3/24/2012 12:22 PM, Hilton Dier III wrote: Kent,   I had modules like those back in the early 1990s, when I first went off grid. They are designed to be wired in sets of three for 12V nominal, 18Voc. If the EVA encapsulant is a bit browned it is probably leftover from the Carrizo project, the largest of its time. The Carrizo project had reflectors to increase output but they cooked the adhesive. The owners eventually lost their beneficial rate and realized they would make more money selling off the modules than selling the electricity. Many homesteaders benefited.   Hilton   The label looks like a shiny piece of foil, but with light angled on it  just right way the name Solarex is visible as are many words on the  label template. None of the values are legible. It is a little smaller  than a MSX-60. It has 40 cells that are wired in four parallel strings  of ten. Open circuit voltage is about 6 volts. Shorted it put out 4 amps  in bright but very overcast conditions. I suspect that it would put out  8 to 10 amps at STC. There are two j-boxes, one on each end, with very  substantial terminals. It still operates, but obviously it isn't much  use for charging a battery, even a six volt one. Anyone familiar with a  low-voltage high-current Solarex module.___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid ground mount: Can it be done cheaper

[Jason Szumlanski]

Oh, to have 85 mph winds. Code changes just brought us up to 180 mph
design wind speeds in Southwest Florida. Yay.

Jason Szumlanski
Fafco Solar

On Mar 24, 2012, at 5:05 PM, Kent Osterberg  wrote:

> William,
>
> There are auger mounted systems that don't require any concrete. For 
> locations with suitable soil, they probably save some time and are a little 
> less expensive than concrete. But it takes a substantial structure to 
> withstand 85 mph, or greater, winds. There's no getting around the physics of 
> that.
>
> Oregon also requires PV mounting structures to be engineered unless they meet 
> conditions prescribed in the solar installation code. The prescriptive rules 
> only apply to roof mounted systems, so ground mounts require a structural 
> engineer to sign off on the construction plans.
>
> Kent Osterberg
> Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
> www.bluemountainsolar.com
>
>
> On 3/24/2012 10:29 AM, William Miller wrote:
>> Daryl:
>>
>> Thanks for the photos and description of the mounts you are installing.  We 
>> have installed many of the DPW ground mount systems in similar 
>> configurations. 
>> http://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Portfolio/ground-mount/engineered_ground_mount.jpg
>>
>> We are realizing two things:
>>
>> 1. Concrete footings of any type are expensive.  The cost of excavation, 
>> forming and concrete really adds up.
>>
>> 2. For off-grid, when the module tilt angle increases to 45 degrees, the 
>> foundations need to be substantial.  During one install we had our heavy PV 
>> trailer blow over due to high winds.  We decided to have the foundations 
>> reviewed by an engineer and when we received the results, we had to go back 
>> and double our piers and strut.  We had bid the job so the updates came out 
>> of our pocket.  See: 
>> http://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Portfolio/ground-mount/full_size_photos/engineered_ground_mount.JPG
>>
>> We are now required by the AHJ to provide a wet stamp from a structural 
>> engineer for every PV structure over 6 feet in height.  This means every 
>> off-grid.  We know the engineers will require massive foundations which will 
>> cost a lot.  I am looking for a cheaper way to install these racks.  I have 
>> not found it yet.
>>
>> Thanks for your input.
>>
>> William Miller
>>
>>
>> At 04:37 AM 3/24/2012, you wrote:
>>> William,
>>>   I'm attaching a picture of a system we just completed in Eleuthera
>>> using DPW racks on concrete pilings. We tied the pilings and rebar
>>> reinforcement into the limestone bedrock with rebar down 16 inches and
>>> used 12 inch sono tubes as forms.
>>>   We do a lot of ground mounting since our summer work is mostly in New
>>> England and snow removal is always a factor. I have two pole mounted
>>> arrays at my home, but it is the most expensive option, and therefore
>>> do a lot of this type of ground mounting. We also have an economical
>>> "cribworks" type structure made from solid railroad ties and weighing
>>> in at about 2800 lbs each that we will sometimes offer to customers in
>>> off grid situations.
>>>
>>> Daryl
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid ground mount: Can it be done cheaper

[Kent Osterberg]

Many inland areas in California, Oregon, and Washington are 85 mph 
zones. I think that's the lowest requirement anywhere in the U.S. I 
can't imagine designing for 185 mph winds.

Doesn't that just blow the glass out of the modules?

Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
www.bluemountainsolar.com


On 3/24/2012 2:07 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote:

Oh, to have 85 mph winds. Code changes just brought us up to 180 mph
design wind speeds in Southwest Florida. Yay.

Jason Szumlanski
Fafco Solar

On Mar 24, 2012, at 5:05 PM, Kent Osterberg  wrote:


William,

There are auger mounted systems that don't require any concrete. For locations 
with suitable soil, they probably save some time and are a little less 
expensive than concrete. But it takes a substantial structure to withstand 85 
mph, or greater, winds. There's no getting around the physics of that.

Oregon also requires PV mounting structures to be engineered unless they meet 
conditions prescribed in the solar installation code. The prescriptive rules 
only apply to roof mounted systems, so ground mounts require a structural 
engineer to sign off on the construction plans.

Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
www.bluemountainsolar.com


On 3/24/2012 10:29 AM, William Miller wrote:

Daryl:

Thanks for the photos and description of the mounts you are installing.  We 
have installed many of the DPW ground mount systems in similar configurations. 
http://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Portfolio/ground-mount/engineered_ground_mount.jpg

We are realizing two things:

1. Concrete footings of any type are expensive.  The cost of excavation, 
forming and concrete really adds up.

2. For off-grid, when the module tilt angle increases to 45 degrees, the 
foundations need to be substantial.  During one install we had our heavy PV 
trailer blow over due to high winds.  We decided to have the foundations 
reviewed by an engineer and when we received the results, we had to go back and 
double our piers and strut.  We had bid the job so the updates came out of our 
pocket.  See: 
http://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Portfolio/ground-mount/full_size_photos/engineered_ground_mount.JPG

We are now required by the AHJ to provide a wet stamp from a structural 
engineer for every PV structure over 6 feet in height.  This means every 
off-grid.  We know the engineers will require massive foundations which will 
cost a lot.  I am looking for a cheaper way to install these racks.  I have not 
found it yet.

Thanks for your input.

William Miller


At 04:37 AM 3/24/2012, you wrote:

William,
   I'm attaching a picture of a system we just completed in Eleuthera
using DPW racks on concrete pilings. We tied the pilings and rebar
reinforcement into the limestone bedrock with rebar down 16 inches and
used 12 inch sono tubes as forms.
   We do a lot of ground mounting since our summer work is mostly in New
England and snow removal is always a factor. I have two pole mounted
arrays at my home, but it is the most expensive option, and therefore
do a lot of this type of ground mounting. We also have an economical
"cribworks" type structure made from solid railroad ties and weighing
in at about 2800 lbs each that we will sometimes offer to customers in
off grid situations.

Daryl




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid ground mount: Can it be done cheaper

[Jason Szumlanski]

With the change to ASCE 7-10, the uplift calcs are not that much more,
and in some cases less, but I think in any case the concern is
wind-borne debris. If the mod stays attached to the roof, we are good.
Having lived through it, it's all theory anyway. In a hurricane,
theory goes out the window.

Jason Szumlanski
Fafco Solar

On Mar 24, 2012, at 6:16 PM, Kent Osterberg  wrote:

> Many inland areas in California, Oregon, and Washington are 85 mph zones. I 
> think that's the lowest requirement anywhere in the U.S. I can't imagine 
> designing for 185 mph winds.
> Doesn't that just blow the glass out of the modules?
>
> Kent Osterberg
> Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
> www.bluemountainsolar.com
>
>
> On 3/24/2012 2:07 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
>> Oh, to have 85 mph winds. Code changes just brought us up to 180 mph
>> design wind speeds in Southwest Florida. Yay.
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Fafco Solar
>>
>> On Mar 24, 2012, at 5:05 PM, Kent Osterberg  wrote:
>>
>>> William,
>>>
>>> There are auger mounted systems that don't require any concrete. For 
>>> locations with suitable soil, they probably save some time and are a little 
>>> less expensive than concrete. But it takes a substantial structure to 
>>> withstand 85 mph, or greater, winds. There's no getting around the physics 
>>> of that.
>>>
>>> Oregon also requires PV mounting structures to be engineered unless they 
>>> meet conditions prescribed in the solar installation code. The prescriptive 
>>> rules only apply to roof mounted systems, so ground mounts require a 
>>> structural engineer to sign off on the construction plans.
>>>
>>> Kent Osterberg
>>> Blue Mountain Solar, Inc.
>>> www.bluemountainsolar.com
>>>
>>>
>>> On 3/24/2012 10:29 AM, William Miller wrote:
 Daryl:

 Thanks for the photos and description of the mounts you are installing.  
 We have installed many of the DPW ground mount systems in similar 
 configurations. 
 http://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Portfolio/ground-mount/engineered_ground_mount.jpg

 We are realizing two things:

 1. Concrete footings of any type are expensive.  The cost of excavation, 
 forming and concrete really adds up.

 2. For off-grid, when the module tilt angle increases to 45 degrees, the 
 foundations need to be substantial.  During one install we had our heavy 
 PV trailer blow over due to high winds.  We decided to have the 
 foundations reviewed by an engineer and when we received the results, we 
 had to go back and double our piers and strut.  We had bid the job so the 
 updates came out of our pocket.  See: 
 http://millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Portfolio/ground-mount/full_size_photos/engineered_ground_mount.JPG

 We are now required by the AHJ to provide a wet stamp from a structural 
 engineer for every PV structure over 6 feet in height.  This means every 
 off-grid.  We know the engineers will require massive foundations which 
 will cost a lot.  I am looking for a cheaper way to install these racks.  
 I have not found it yet.

 Thanks for your input.

 William Miller


 At 04:37 AM 3/24/2012, you wrote:
> William,
>   I'm attaching a picture of a system we just completed in Eleuthera
> using DPW racks on concrete pilings. We tied the pilings and rebar
> reinforcement into the limestone bedrock with rebar down 16 inches and
> used 12 inch sono tubes as forms.
>   We do a lot of ground mounting since our summer work is mostly in New
> England and snow removal is always a factor. I have two pole mounted
> arrays at my home, but it is the most expensive option, and therefore
> do a lot of this type of ground mounting. We also have an economical
> "cribworks" type structure made from solid railroad ties and weighing
> in at about 2800 lbs each that we will sometimes offer to customers in
> off grid situations.
>
> Daryl


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid ground mount: Can it be done cheaper

[Exeltech]

> In a hurricane, theory goes out the window.

Or through it .. if it's even still there.
(Apologies all.  Engineering humor.)


Dan


--- On Sat, 3/24/12, Jason Szumlanski  wrote:

> From: Jason Szumlanski 
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off-grid ground mount: Can it be done cheaper
> To: "RE-wrenches" 
> Date: Saturday, March 24, 2012, 7:56 PM
> With the change to ASCE 7-10, the uplift calcs
> are not that much more, and in some cases less, but
> I think in any case the concern is wind-borne debris.
> If the mod stays attached to the roof, we are good.
> Having lived through it, it's all theory anyway. In a
> hurricane, theory goes out the window.
> 
> Jason Szumlanski
> Fafco Solar

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