Re: [RE-wrenches] AC PV module with battery backup?

[Brian Teitelbaum]

Joel,

While Enphase inverters will work in an AC-Coupled system, be aware that 
Enphase does not support the use of their micro-inverters with any battery 
system, and will likely not honor their warranty if their micro-inverters are 
used that way, at least not at this time. I understand that they monitoring 
some battery-based installations for the purpose of gathering information.

Brian Teitelbaum
AEE Solar



-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Joel Davidson
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 5:07 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] AC PV module with battery backup?

Wrenches,
I have a customer who wants solar modules and Enphase inverters, but he also 
wants PV and battery backup power during a grid outage. Are any wrenches doing 
this? How? Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
Joel Davidson

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[RE-wrenches] real world example - fuel saving with battery bank

[Ron Young]

Hi Wrenches, 
I'm putting together a proposal for a national company that has a few remote 
installations. They are looking for options for saving generator run-time using 
an inverter-charger/battery combo with the existing gensets. Does anyone have 
any real world examples of realized fuel savings in this type of scenario? They 
run generators 24/7 and a lot of the dusk to dawn energy requirement is well 
below the daytime needs. Appreciate any ideas or examples.

Ron Young
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island Autotransformer

[Glenn Burt]

Look at the Acme T-3-53044-S.

I used this in my last system.

 

-Glenn Burt

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Aaron
Mandelkorn
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 6:41 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island Autotransformer

 

Dear wrenches,  I will be installing a single Sunny Island 5048 for a
battery backup system that will utilize a Sunny Boy 5000US as well as 240
volt loads.  I know that Outback makes a 4 and 6kv autotransformer and there
are units rated as much as 8kv from other companies.  Being a 5000 watt
inverter I think the 6kv from outback would work but SMA is telling me to go
with the highest rated unit I can find.  The price difference between the
different autotransformers is substantial and I don't want to buy more than
I need. It would be great to hear from anyone who has installed a single
Sunny Island 5048 and what autotransformer they used.  Thanks in advanced.

 

  

Aaron Mandelkorn

NABCEP Certified PV Installer

Owner / Operator

 

Renewable Energy Outfitters

Box 65 Salida, CO. 81201

(970)596-3744

reoso...@gmail.com

www.reosolar.com

 

 

 

 

 

 





 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] AC PV module with battery backup?

[Allan Sindelar]

  
  
Joel,
Use a Magnum PAE system for this. Their MS4448PAE with current
firmware has frequency-shift capabilities, to allow control of the
Enphases' output when the grid is down. The GT output should not
exceed 80% of the Magnum(s) rated output; stacking is allowed here
if needed. They still recommend a dump load as a fail-safe, although
they're working on a diversion load accessory. I think there's
technical material on Magnum's website showing how to do this.
Allan


  
  
  Allan Sindelar
  al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic
  Installer
  NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
  New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
  Positive Energy, Inc.
  3201 Calle Marie
  Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
  505 424-1112
  www.positiveenergysolar.com
  
   

On 4/13/2012 6:07 PM, Joel Davidson wrote:
Wrenches,
  
  I have a customer who wants solar modules and Enphase inverters,
  but he also wants PV and battery backup power during a grid
  outage. Are any wrenches doing this? How? Thanks for sharing your
  knowledge.
  
  Joel Davidson
  
  
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[RE-wrenches] AC PV module with battery backup?

[Joel Davidson]

Wrenches,
I have a customer who wants solar modules and Enphase inverters, but he also 
wants PV and battery backup power during a grid outage. Are any wrenches 
doing this? How? Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

Joel Davidson

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar product whole sellers with good reputation

[Allan Sindelar]

  
  
Christopher,
One very small, under-the-radar distributor with whom we have worked
for years and who gives very good service is Hitney Solar Products,
928-636-1001, i...@hitneysolar.com, www.hitneysolar.com.
No bells and whistles, though, and limited product lines. And too
small to be staffed on weekends.
Allan


  
  
  Allan Sindelar
  al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic
  Installer
  NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
  New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
  Positive Energy, Inc.
  3201 Calle Marie
  Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
  505 424-1112
  www.positiveenergysolar.com
  
  
  
   

On 4/13/2012 6:51 AM, Christopher Warfel wrote:
We have been using the same wholesale supplier for
  many years for most of our solar electric equipment purchases. 
  It's been a difficult relationship. Orders are not acknowledged,
  delayed in processing, delays in shipping, etc. They advertise as
  a nation-wide supplier but they are not staffed on weekends when
  we often find they made a mistake in our order.  It takes more
  time and effort to manage the purchase order than we care to
  continue to commit. I am asking if there are suppliers out there
  that are not such a problem. I know this isn't a technical
  question, but it has much to do with our industry. Contact me off
  line if that is deemed most appropriate. Thanks for any insight.
  
  
  

  

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[RE-wrenches] Sunny Island Autotransformer

[Aaron Mandelkorn]

Dear wrenches,  I will be installing a single Sunny Island 5048 for a battery 
backup system that will utilize a Sunny Boy 5000US as well as 240 volt loads.  
I know that Outback makes a 4 and 6kv autotransformer and there are units rated 
as much as 8kv from other companies.  Being a 5000 watt inverter I think the 
6kv from outback would work but SMA is telling me to go with the highest rated 
unit I can find.  The price difference between the different autotransformers 
is substantial and I don't want to buy more than I need. It would be great to 
hear from anyone who has installed a single Sunny Island 5048 and what 
autotransformer they used.  Thanks in advanced.

  
Aaron Mandelkorn
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
Owner / Operator

Renewable Energy Outfitters
Box 65 Salida, CO. 81201
(970)596-3744
reoso...@gmail.com
www.reosolar.com









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[RE-wrenches] 75W module match

[Allan Sindelar]

  
  
Wrenches,
We installed many systems using BP modules back in the late 1990s.
The standard building block of the time was the BP 275, the
single-crystal 12V 36-cell module of that time. The frame size was
21.1" by 47.6", I think.

What modern panels have compatible specifications and dimensions? We
will occasionally have need to either replace one or to fill out 
partially-filled rack from that era. The current need is to increase
an array of two BP75s on a LPRGM rack with capacity for six.

Ameresco has the license to reproduce some of the BP module line now
that BP has discontinued production, but this module is not one of
those available and the nearest match is quite pricey. Before
ordering it I'd like to know if another substitute is available.
Thank you,
Allan
-- 
  
  
  Allan Sindelar
  al...@positiveenergysolar.com
NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic
  Installer
  NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
  New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
  Positive Energy, Inc.
  3201 Calle Marie
  Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
  505 424-1112
  www.positiveenergysolar.com
  
  
  
   
  

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Helios Modules

[Great Northern Solar]

Helios modules are the strongest player in Domestic module market.

Our distribution highlights the larger 72 and 96 cell lines and we  
find both to be very high quality.


Our network is pleased with the domestic content (98%) on the D  
modules and the product is more competitive than other US modules.


I AM  biased because I know the company principles and the manufacture  
is in my home state.  Yet it gives me confidence to be working with  
trustworthy people that have a good history in our industry.


The company is responsive to my needs and makes a 420 watt PV.

This is a great development in our market.

C.


Energetically,
Christopher LaForge
Great Northern Solar
77480 Evergreen Road, Suite #1
Port Wing, WI 54865
715 774 3374

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Honda EU3000i pranks

[Jeff Oldham]

The inverter was a VFX, keep in mind however it turned out not to be an 
inverter issue but instead too high of an AC input setting.


>From the Solar, Wind and Hydro powered office of Jeff Oldham/Regenerative 
>SOLutions

53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Hot Trojan Batteries

[John DeBoever]

Wrenches,

Good points.
To recap: Max recommended strings in parallel on cyclic applications is 1 to 3. 
 More than 3 strings in parallel will over time promote unbalanced charge of 
the strings. Unbalanced charge will promote sulfatation (lead sulfate crystals 
hardening) of the plates on the units not getting enough charge, and, promote 
corrosion (due to loosing water) & possibly thermal challenges on the “boiling” 
overcharged units, while accelerating batteries ageing on all.

In addition to the issue of the max number of strings in parallel, batteries 
need to see full charge (system design) to stay in good health. FLA batteries 
need to see equalization when the S.G delta between cells are reaching 30 
points difference. Equalization on FLA batteries addresses S.G. unbalance and 
acid stratification, both of which are challenging the battery health.

John
Trojan Battery Company

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 9:41 AM
To: Darryl Thayer; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hot Trojan Batteries

I've seen batteries get very hot from deficit charging, where batteries are 
cycled rapidly and never fully charged.


At 10:15 PM 4/12/2012, you wrote:

I have seen very hot batteries infact batteries that melted.  and caught fire.  
the problem was that the string was several strings in parallel, and one of the 
strings had thermal runaway.  during charge one battery got hot, and it has 
lower voltage and gets more current. then it get hotter because of the more 
curent. soon it is so hot the other batteries start to discharge through the 
hot battery.

A similar event will occur when one battery in a string of batteries develops a 
bad cell, and the othe batteries in parallel strings will force current 
backwards through the cell.  and thermal runaway occcurs in the hot battery.

From: Jason Szumlanski mailto:ja...@fafcosolar.com>>
To: RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
Sent: Monday, April 2, 2012 11:53 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hot Trojan Batteries

There must be some confusion here about the charging rate. C/20 refers to 
capacity divided by 20, so in the case of a 325aH battery (capacity @ the 20 
hour discharge rate) we’re talking about charging at a 16.25 amp rate. I’m 
sure John is not referring to a maximum rate of 10-15% of 16.25 amps, but 
10-15% of the 325aH capacity.

Jason Szumlanski
Fafco Solar


From: 
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
 [ mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of John DeBoever
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 12:14 PM
To: allso...@scswifi.net; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hot Trojan Batteries

Jeremy, Wrenches,

165°F is definitely too high and you should stop immediately any charge to 
avoid further major problems. I recommend you contact our Trojan Tech Support 
for help at 
http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/Tech_Support/Tech_Support.html?tab=0#TabbedPanels1#top

Below are few perspectives to help the diagnostic:

o   System issues:
ü  Check Charger setting: the C/20 rate mentioned is definitely too high and 
will damage the battery. The maximum recommended current rate is 10-15% of C/20 
for a deep-cycle flooded lead acid battery. Other C/rates are possible but are 
application specific and not typical.
ü  Check Voltage settings: these are provided on Trojan datasheets, see here: 
http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/Tech_Support/literature.html
ü  Check Temperature compensation: -0.028VPC for every 10°F above 77°F (add 
0.028 VPC for every 10°F below 77°F or subtract 0.020VPC for every 10°F 
above 77°F. See here: 
http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/PDF/Signature_Trojan_ProductLineSheet.pdf
ü  Check Voltage sensor status and connection. Dedicated wiring is recommended
ü  Check temperature sensor. It shall be well positioned, typically in the 
middle of the battery bank at the warmest point.
ü  Check if air circulation between the battery units.
ü  Check if adequate air ventilation of the battery room.

o   Battery issues:
ü  C/20 charging rate is too high (see above)
ü  How old are the batteries? Ageing batteries will face micro-shorts that 
will decrease the battery turnaround efficiency over time that translates in 
higher temperature generation. Typically the battery temperature range is about 
20oF above ambient temperature, and typical min and max limit are -4°F to 
113°F.
See here: 
http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/PDF/Signature_Trojan_ProductLineSheet.pdf
165°F is way too high and will damage the units
ü  Maybe you are facing one or more shorted units: check the voltage and it 
will quickly indicate if a unit is shorted.  Shorted units will generate heat 
and will jeopardize the charging of other units. Remove shorted un

[RE-wrenches] FW: Hot Trojan Batteries

[bob ellison]

I have seen this happen in an 80 volt single string of 85 – 17’s.

They got hot enough to melt the cell covers into the cell structures a couple 
inches.

It was a mess. This was at the same time that the replacement packs were 
damaged in shipment by something falling on them and smashing a cell top. The 
factory insisted on returning the entire cases to the factory to replace the 
cell instead of sending a couple cells and having me replace them. 

 

This is the closest that I have seen a bank to catching fine in 20+ years of 
doing this type of stuff….

 

Bob Ellison

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2012 9:41 AM
To: Darryl Thayer; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hot Trojan Batteries

 

I've seen batteries get very hot from deficit charging, where batteries are 
cycled rapidly and never fully charged. 


At 10:15 PM 4/12/2012, you wrote:



I have seen very hot batteries infact batteries that melted.  and caught fire.  
the problem was that the string was several strings in parallel, and one of the 
strings had thermal runaway.  during charge one battery got hot, and it has 
lower voltage and gets more current. then it get hotter because of the more 
curent. soon it is so hot the other batteries start to discharge through the 
hot battery.  
 
A similar event will occur when one battery in a string of batteries develops a 
bad cell, and the othe batteries in parallel strings will force current 
backwards through the cell.  and thermal runaway occcurs in the hot battery.  

From: Jason Szumlanski 
To: RE-wrenches  
Sent: Monday, April 2, 2012 11:53 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hot Trojan Batteries

There must be some confusion here about the charging rate. C/20 refers to 
capacity divided by 20, so in the case of a 325aH battery (capacity @ the 20 
hour discharge rate) we’re talking about charging at a 16.25 amp rate. I’m 
sure John is not referring to a maximum rate of 10-15% of 16.25 amps, but 
10-15% of the 325aH capacity.
 
Jason Szumlanski
Fafco Solar
 
 
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [ 
mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
 ] On Behalf Of John DeBoever
Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 12:14 PM
To: allso...@scswifi.net; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hot Trojan Batteries
 
Jeremy, Wrenches,
 
165°F is definitely too high and you should stop immediately any charge to 
avoid further major problems. I recommend you contact our Trojan Tech Support 
for help at 
http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/Tech_Support/Tech_Support.html?tab=0#TabbedPanels1#top
 

  
 
Below are few perspectives to help the diagnostic:
 
o   System issues: 
ü  Check Charger setting: the C/20 rate mentioned is definitely too high and 
will damage the battery. The maximum recommended current rate is 10-15% of C/20 
for a deep-cycle flooded lead acid battery. Other C/rates are possible but are 
application specific and not typical.
ü  Check Voltage settings: these are provided on Trojan datasheets, see here: 
http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/Tech_Support/literature.html 
ü  Check Temperature compensation: -0.028VPC for every 10°F above 77°F (add 
0.028 VPC for every 10°F below 77°F or subtract 0.020VPC for every 10°F 
above 77°F. See here: 
http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/PDF/Signature_Trojan_ProductLineSheet.pdf 
ü  Check Voltage sensor status and connection. Dedicated wiring is recommended
ü  Check temperature sensor. It shall be well positioned, typically in the 
middle of the battery bank at the warmest point.
ü  Check if air circulation between the battery units. 
ü  Check if adequate air ventilation of the battery room.
 
o   Battery issues:
ü  C/20 charging rate is too high (see above)
ü  How old are the batteries? Ageing batteries will face micro-shorts that 
will decrease the battery turnaround efficiency over time that translates in 
higher temperature generation. Typically the battery temperature range is about 
20oF above ambient temperature, and typical min and max limit are -4°F to 
113°F. 
See here: 
http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/PDF/Signature_Trojan_ProductLineSheet.pdf 
165°F is way too high and will damage the units
ü  Maybe you are facing one or more shorted units: check the voltage and it 
will quickly indicate if a unit is shorted.  Shorted units will generate heat 
and will jeopardize the charging of other units. Remove shorted units and 
consult tech support your charger supplier if possible to reconfigure of your 
battery bank with fewer units, configured at a lower battery bank voltage, 
using same voltage settings recommended by Trojan Battery Company.  Typically 1 
to 3 units less would be acceptable, depending the charger manufacturer 
settings.
ü  Maybe you are facing sulfated batteries, resulting 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Hot Trojan Batteries

[Drake]

I've seen batteries get very hot from deficit 
charging, where batteries are cycled rapidly and never fully charged.



At 10:15 PM 4/12/2012, you wrote:
I have seen very hot batteries infact batteries 
that melted.  and caught fire.  the problem was 
that the string was several strings in parallel, 
and one of the strings had thermal 
runaway.  during charge one battery got hot, and 
it has lower voltage and gets more current. then 
it get hotter because of the more curent. soon 
it is so hot the other batteries start to discharge through the hot battery.


A similar event will occur when one battery in a 
string of batteries develops a bad cell, and the 
othe batteries in parallel strings will force 
current backwards through the cell.  and thermal 
runaway occcurs in the hot battery.


From: Jason Szumlanski 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Monday, April 2, 2012 11:53 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hot Trojan Batteries

There must be some confusion here about the 
charging rate. C/20 refers to capacity divided 
by 20, so in the case of a 325aH battery 
(capacity @ the 20 hour discharge rate) we’re 
talking about charging at a 16.25 amp rate. 
I’m sure John is not referring to a maximum 
rate of 10-15% of 16.25 amps, but 10-15% of the 325aH capacity.


Jason Szumlanski
Fafco Solar


From: 
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of John DeBoever

Sent: Monday, April 02, 2012 12:14 PM
To: allso...@scswifi.net; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Hot Trojan Batteries

Jeremy, Wrenches,

165°F is definitely too high and you should 
stop immediately any charge to avoid further 
major problems. I recommend you contact our 
Trojan Tech Support for help at 
http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/Tech_Support/Tech_Support.html?tab=0#TabbedPanels1#top 



Below are few perspectives to help the diagnostic:

o   System issues:
ü  Check Charger setting: the C/20 rate 
mentioned is definitely too high and will damage 
the battery. The maximum recommended current 
rate is 10-15% of C/20 for a deep-cycle flooded 
lead acid battery. Other C/rates are possible 
but are application specific and not typical.
ü  Check Voltage settings: these are provided 
on Trojan datasheets, see here: 
http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/Tech_Support/literature.html
ü  Check Temperature compensation: -0.028VPC 
for every 10°F above 77°F (add 0.028 VPC for 
every 10°F below 77°F or subtract 0.020VPC for 
every 10°F above 77°F. See here: 
http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/PDF/Signature_Trojan_ProductLineSheet.pdf
ü  Check Voltage sensor status and connection. 
Dedicated wiring is recommended
ü  Check temperature sensor. It shall be well 
positioned, typically in the middle of the battery bank at the warmest point.

ü  Check if air circulation between the battery units.
ü  Check if adequate air ventilation of the battery room.

o   Battery issues:
ü  C/20 charging rate is too high (see above)
ü  How old are the batteries? Ageing batteries 
will face micro-shorts that will decrease the 
battery turnaround efficiency over time that 
translates in higher temperature generation. 
Typically the battery temperature range is about 
20oF above ambient temperature, and typical min 
and max limit are -4°F to 113°F.
See here: 
http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/PDF/Signature_Trojan_ProductLineSheet.pdf 


165°F is way too high and will damage the units
ü  Maybe you are facing one or more shorted 
units: check the voltage and it will quickly 
indicate if a unit is shorted.  Shorted units 
will generate heat and will jeopardize the 
charging of other units. Remove shorted units 
and consult tech support your charger supplier 
if possible to reconfigure of your battery bank 
with fewer units, configured at a lower battery 
bank voltage, using same voltage settings 
recommended by Trojan Battery 
Company.  Typically 1 to 3 units less would be 
acceptable, depending the charger manufacturer settings.
ü  Maybe you are facing sulfated batteries, 
resulting from low charging, thus resulting in 
lower overall turnaround efficiency. This will 
heat some healthier units of the battery bank, 
accelerating corrosion damages. The max 
temperature acceptable being 113°F, please 
consult Trojan Tech Support: 
http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/Tech_Support/Tech_Support.html?tab=0#TabbedPanels1#top
ü  Please deal directly off-Wrenches list, with 
Trojan Tech Support for better fine tune 
resolution: 
http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/Tech_Support/Tech_Support.html?tab=0#TabbedPanels1#top


I hope this help,

John
John F. DeBoever
Global Technical Director – Renewable Energy
Trojan Battery Com

[RE-wrenches] Solar product whole sellers with good reputation

[Christopher Warfel]

We have been using the same wholesale supplier for many years for most 
of our solar electric equipment purchases.  It's been a difficult 
relationship. Orders are not acknowledged, delayed in processing, delays 
in shipping, etc. They advertise as a nation-wide supplier but they are 
not staffed on weekends when we often find they made a mistake in our 
order.  It takes more time and effort to manage the purchase order than 
we care to continue to commit. I am asking if there are suppliers out 
there that are not such a problem. I know this isn't a technical 
question, but it has much to do with our industry. Contact me off line 
if that is deemed most appropriate. Thanks for any insight.



--

Christopher Warfel, P.E.
ENTECH Engineering, Inc.
Energy Utilization Experts
(401)466-8978

The information contained within this communication shall
be considered confidential and shall not be retransmitted
without knowledge of the sender. Please contact us if
this email reached you in error. Thank you.

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