Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
All of this refers to shingle roofs, which we don't see much of. We mostly deal with concrete and corrugated steel/galvalume, the latter being a nightmare. Does anyone have good ideas for dealing with corrugated? There's no way to flash it, the blocks are fine when you hit a beam on the ridge but half the time your penetration has to be on the trough of the corrugated steel. Other than lots of goop, I don't know how else to seal it. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
Todd, The issue isn't whether your approach works, but whether it is defensible in the event that something leaks. Most solar contractors receive public funds (rebate monies, ARRA program distributions, etc.). Some of those companies are installing systems in a manner that is not building code compliant. It just takes a high profile leaky roof at a VA hospital or a public housing project where a solar system was installed in a manner that does not meet the building code to lose years of goodwill and support for the industry. Modules prices have fallen quite a bit, but we all loose if State and Federal or public (opinion) support for the industry goes away. Obviously, that's the worst case scenario: That somehow the industry gets painted as being made up of a bunch of irresponsible, fly-by-night, subsidy chasers. Probably nothing to worry about, though. I'm pretty sure there's no precedence for that sort of thing actually happening. Right? What's more likely is that AHJs will get hip to the fact that they need to inspect the building code compliance of roof attachments. When they do, which side of the curve will your company be on? (Since your mind seems to be made up, Todd, that question is addressed to List at large.) Happy Independence Day, David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installer ™ david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 On Jul 3, 2012, at 10:37 PM, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote: i wasn't going to enter into this discussion, but this posting prompted me. my most recent job was done with the assistance of the customer. he and i have a long working history, my being his employee some 25 years ago installing shw systems in the area, and now he hiring me to do his personal home's pv system. he insisted on straight L foot mounting without flashings... and i have to agree. in the 25 to 30 years since we did those shw systems, not a single one has leaked. plus, the installation was at the roof ridgeline, so pv quick mounts wouldn't have worked anyway. we put 2 X 8 blocking in the attic between the trusses to acomodate the mounting bolts and used a nice fattie gob of black silicone on each foot, which gooshed out when tightened. the mount will easily outlast the roof... leak free. honestly, i don't care what the ubc/ibs says. if done properly, these kinds of mounts are bombproof. years of experience backs this up. also, i have seen plenty of 'code compliant' oatey no-caulk sewer vent flashings with rotten rubber leaking into homes to know flashed penetrations are no panacea either. todd On Tuesday, July 3, 2012 2:53pm, David Brearley david.brear...@solarprofessional.com said: +1 on the use of structural screws. We ran an article about lag screws a couple years ago: http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP3_4_pg70_Shelly One of the things that surprised me when I read this manuscript is how variable lag screws are in terms of construction and quality. Besides the convenience of being able to drive a structural screw without a pilot hole, the engineering specs are likely better documented and the manufacturing tolerances are probably tighter as well. FWIW: I think that using unflashed attachments in these litigious times is unwise. It's not consistent with best practices in the construction industry. It does not meet building codes. It violates the roof warranty. It makes your competition look good. We ran our first article on this topic 4 years ago, in our inaugural issue of SolarPro magazine: http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP1_1_pg72_Fain The industry has come a long way since then, both in terms of awareness and in terms of off-the-shelf flashed attachment options. There are so many quality flashed attachment solutions to chose from now that I'm not sure why anyone would knowingly expose themselves to a possible construction negligence claim. Drive straight, David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installer ™ david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 On Jul 3, 2012, at 4:11 PM, Garrison Riegel wrote: The EcoFasten GF1 flashing is easy to install on a retrofit and will not necessarily add any height to the rail. If you do need to trim the flashings installed around the skylight, then I would recommend adding sealant to these penetrations. We ditch the included lag and use a 5/16” GRK RSS (self tapping structural screw). The combination works great and does not require a pilot hole. RSS: http://www.grkfasteners.com/en/RSS_1_2_information.htm GF1 http://ecofastensolar.com/pdf/GF1%20Cutsheets.pdf Best, Garrison Riegel Project Manager Solar Service Inc [p] 847-677-0950 [f] 847-647-9360 www.solarserviceinc.com NABCEP Certified Solar PV and Thermal Installer™ “There is no room for
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
"Most solar contractors receive public funds" I'll have to take issue with that one. I know of no such contractors in my part of the US."The issue isn't whether your approach works, but whether it is defensible in the event that something leaks."Our "redneck" methods may not satisfy the big city folks, but no failures in 20 years means more to our customers than satisfying some bureaucrat's requirements. Original Message Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof From: David Brearley david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Date: Wed, July 04, 2012 11:07 am To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Todd,The issue isn't whether your approach works, but whether it is defensible in the event that something leaks. Most solar contractors receive public funds (rebate monies, ARRA program distributions, etc.). Some of those companies are installing systems in a manner that is not building code compliant. It just takes a high profile leaky roof at a VA hospital or a public housing project where a solar system was installed in a manner that does not meet the building code to lose years of goodwill and support for the industry.Modules prices have fallen quite a bit, but we all loose if State and Federal or public (opinion) support for the industry goes away.Obviously, that's the worst case scenario: That somehow the industry gets painted as being made up of a bunch of irresponsible, fly-by-night, subsidy chasers. Probably nothing to worry about, though. I'm pretty sure there's no precedence for that sort of thing actually happening. Right?What's more likely is that AHJs will get hip to the fact that they need to inspect the building code compliance of roof attachments. When they do, which side of the curve will your company be on? (Since your mind seems to be made up, Todd, that question is addressed to List at large.)Happy Independence Day,David Brearley, Senior Technical EditorSolarPro magazineNABCEP Certified PV Installer ™david.brear...@solarprofessional.comDirect: 541.261.6545 On Jul 3, 2012, at 10:37 PM, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote:i wasn't going to enter into this discussion, but this posting prompted me. my most recent job was done with the assistance of the customer. he and i have a long working history, my being his employee some 25 years ago installing shw systems in the area, and now he hiring me to do his personal home's pv system.he insisted on straight L foot mounting without flashings... and i have to agree. in the 25 to 30 years since we did those shw systems, not a single one has leaked. plus, the installation was at the roof ridgeline, so pv quick mounts wouldn't have worked anyway. we put 2 X 8 blocking in the attic between the trusses to acomodate the mounting bolts and used a nice fattie gob of black silicone on each foot, which gooshed out when tightened. the mount will easily outlast the roof... leak free.honestly, i don't care what the ubc/ibs says.if done properly, these kinds of mounts are bombproof. years of experience backs this up. also, i have seen plenty of 'code compliant' oatey no-caulk sewer vent flashings with rotten rubber leaking into homes to know flashed penetrations are no panacea either.toddOn Tuesday, July 3, 2012 2:53pm, "David Brearley" david.brear...@solarprofessional.com said: +1 on the use of structural screws. We ran an article about lag screws a couple years ago: http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP3_4_pg70_Shelly One of the things that surprised me when I read this manuscript is how variable lag screws are in terms of construction and quality. Besides the convenience of being able to drive a structural screw without a pilot hole, the engineering specs are likely better documented and the manufacturing tolerances are probably tighter as well. FWIW: I think that using unflashed attachments in these litigious times is unwise. It's not consistent with best practices in the construction industry. It does not meet building codes. It violates the roof warranty.It makes your competition look good.We ran our first article on this topic 4 years ago, in our inaugural issue of SolarPro magazine: http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP1_1_pg72_Fain The industry has come a long way since then, both in terms of awareness and in terms of off-the-shelf flashed attachment options. There are so many quality flashed attachment solutions to chose from now that I'm not sure why anyone would knowingly expose themselves to a possibleconstruction negligence claim. Drive straight, David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor SolarPro magazineNABCEP Certified PV Installer ™david.brear...@solarprofessional.comDirect: 541.261.6545 On Jul 3, 2012, at 4:11 PM, Garrison Riegel wrote: The EcoFasten GF1 flashing is easy to install on a retrofit and will not necessarily add any height to the rail. If you do need to trim the flashings installed around the skylight, then I would recommend adding sealant to these
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
The text doesn’t imply that the wood will not split, it simply says it can be driven in without a pilot hole. For that matter a sheet metal screw can be driven into wood without a pilot hole. The reason that the pilot hole offers an advantage is because there will be threads cut into the entire 360° contact surface of the hole. Without a pilot, the wood will split along the grain, maybe only a tiny amount but the laws of physics make no exception because of an advertised claim. Where there is no metal to wood contact there is no holding power and the pullout strength is compromised. But that’s why the pullout charts use a 2x safety factor. Dave B. said it clearly, “I'm not sure why anyone would knowingly expose themselves to a possible construction negligence claim.”. My 2¢ 2x Jim Duncan North Texas Renewable Energy Inc www.ntrei.com http://www.ntrei.com/ NABCEP PV 031310-57 TECL-27398 nt...@1scom.net 817.917.0527 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Benn At DayStarSolar Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2012 5:36 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof I haven't read up on the mentioned structural screws yet, but do they specifically state that they can be driven without a pilot hole? What is the justification and how are they different so that they won't cause a board to split under pressure? Does anyone have some good info on this? benn Sent from a 'smart' phone, with tiny keys. Please excuse shortcuts and typos. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
30 years of industry precedence is defensible. The L foot is essentially a sealed flashing as well, so we're really talking interpretation. I've done it many different ways, worked on decades old systems, and even though I was a flashing man for many years, I'm back to thinking the venerable L foot has its place in our industry. I've seen some flashed installations that were code compliant, but looked horrible, and worse: leaked. Ray Walters On Jul 4, 2012, at 9:07 AM, David Brearley wrote: Todd, The issue isn't whether your approach works, but whether it is defensible in the event that something leaks. Most solar contractors receive public funds (rebate monies, ARRA program distributions, etc.). Some of those companies are installing systems in a manner that is not building code compliant. It just takes a high profile leaky roof at a VA hospital or a public housing project where a solar system was installed in a manner that does not meet the building code to lose years of goodwill and support for the industry. Modules prices have fallen quite a bit, but we all loose if State and Federal or public (opinion) support for the industry goes away. Obviously, that's the worst case scenario: That somehow the industry gets painted as being made up of a bunch of irresponsible, fly-by-night, subsidy chasers. Probably nothing to worry about, though. I'm pretty sure there's no precedence for that sort of thing actually happening. Right? What's more likely is that AHJs will get hip to the fact that they need to inspect the building code compliance of roof attachments. When they do, which side of the curve will your company be on? (Since your mind seems to be made up, Todd, that question is addressed to List at large.) Happy Independence Day, David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installer ™ david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 On Jul 3, 2012, at 10:37 PM, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote: i wasn't going to enter into this discussion, but this posting prompted me. my most recent job was done with the assistance of the customer. he and i have a long working history, my being his employee some 25 years ago installing shw systems in the area, and now he hiring me to do his personal home's pv system. he insisted on straight L foot mounting without flashings... and i have to agree. in the 25 to 30 years since we did those shw systems, not a single one has leaked. plus, the installation was at the roof ridgeline, so pv quick mounts wouldn't have worked anyway. we put 2 X 8 blocking in the attic between the trusses to acomodate the mounting bolts and used a nice fattie gob of black silicone on each foot, which gooshed out when tightened. the mount will easily outlast the roof... leak free. honestly, i don't care what the ubc/ibs says. if done properly, these kinds of mounts are bombproof. years of experience backs this up. also, i have seen plenty of 'code compliant' oatey no-caulk sewer vent flashings with rotten rubber leaking into homes to know flashed penetrations are no panacea either. todd On Tuesday, July 3, 2012 2:53pm, David Brearley david.brear...@solarprofessional.com said: +1 on the use of structural screws. We ran an article about lag screws a couple years ago: http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP3_4_pg70_Shelly One of the things that surprised me when I read this manuscript is how variable lag screws are in terms of construction and quality. Besides the convenience of being able to drive a structural screw without a pilot hole, the engineering specs are likely better documented and the manufacturing tolerances are probably tighter as well. FWIW: I think that using unflashed attachments in these litigious times is unwise. It's not consistent with best practices in the construction industry. It does not meet building codes. It violates the roof warranty. It makes your competition look good. We ran our first article on this topic 4 years ago, in our inaugural issue of SolarPro magazine: http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP1_1_pg72_Fain The industry has come a long way since then, both in terms of awareness and in terms of off-the-shelf flashed attachment options. There are so many quality flashed attachment solutions to chose from now that I'm not sure why anyone would knowingly expose themselves to a possible construction negligence claim. Drive straight, David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installer ™ david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 On Jul 3, 2012, at 4:11 PM, Garrison Riegel wrote: The EcoFasten GF1 flashing is easy to install on a retrofit and will not necessarily add any height to the rail. If you do need to trim the flashings installed around the skylight, then I
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
In some cases, you can install blocking to get up on the ridge consistently. One alternative to hangar bolts is to use corrugated mounting bridges from DPW Solar or something similar from another company. Sorry I can't link to the PDF. Google: corrugated mounting bridges Since exposed-fastener metal roofs already have a bunch of holes in them, you're not voiding the roof warranty by punching more holes in the ridge. (I don't think these roofs even meet the NRCA definition of a roof assembly because of the exposed penetrations.) Penetrations in the valleys on a roof are problematic for obvious reasons. On Jul 4, 2012, at 6:01 AM, Chris Mason wrote: All of this refers to shingle roofs, which we don't see much of. We mostly deal with concrete and corrugated steel/galvalume, the latter being a nightmare. Does anyone have good ideas for dealing with corrugated? There's no way to flash it, the blocks are fine when you hit a beam on the ridge but half the time your penetration has to be on the trough of the corrugated steel. Other than lots of goop, I don't know how else to seal it. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
Presumably most solar contractors benefit from increased sales due to the availability of a 30% federal tax credit. Arguably, that's not the same thing as receiving public funds, but the net effect is the same. My point is simply that as an industry we are dependent upon public support and a variety direct and indirect subsidies. That raises questions about accountability, about how those funds are being spent. The best thing that we can do as an industry is strive to adopt best practices that are beyond reproach, equivalent standards for other trades, and ideally defensible in a court of law in the event that things go south for whatever reason. (Forget the bureaucrats in the city, it's the lawyers who capitalize on construction negligence claims. The last one on the roof is the first one blamed. Often, we're the last ones on the roof.) On Jul 4, 2012, at 10:31 AM, m...@hurshtown.com m...@hurshtown.com wrote: Most solar contractors receive public funds I'll have to take issue with that one. I know of no such contractors in my part of the US. The issue isn't whether your approach works, but whether it is defensible in the event that something leaks. Our redneck methods may not satisfy the big city folks, but no failures in 20 years means more to our customers than satisfying some bureaucrat's requirements. ___ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
David, Why does your editor put Todd's articles (and use him as a cover story) in your magazines (more than once, I believe) if it is not for his __experience__? The fact that there is a prescribed product (more than one in this case) that gets blessed when old fashioned, time tested, craftsmanship has already solved the problem is a testament to what payola will buy. No leak, no negligence, no claim. But then your magazines wouldn't garner such a big advertizing budget without all those manufacturers with new and improved products. Additionally, this List would perhaps have to find alternative funding, too. If you are really interested in eliminating the irresponsible, fly-by-night, subsidy chasers one easy way may be to eliminate the subsidy. Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar On 04-Jul-12 10:07 AM, David Brearley wrote: Todd, The issue isn't whether your approach works, but whether it is defensible in the event that something leaks. Most solar contractors receive public funds (rebate monies, ARRA program distributions, etc.). Some of those companies are installing systems in a manner that is not building code compliant. It just takes a high profile leaky roof at a VA hospital or a public housing project where a solar system was installed in a manner that does not meet the building code to lose years of goodwill and support for the industry. Modules prices have fallen quite a bit, but we all loose if State and Federal or public (opinion) support for the industry goes away. Obviously, that's the worst case scenario: That somehow the industry gets painted as being made up of a bunch of irresponsible, fly-by-night, subsidy chasers. Probably nothing to worry about, though. I'm pretty sure there's no precedence for that sort of thing actually happening. Right? What's more likely is that AHJs will get hip to the fact that they need to inspect the building code compliance of roof attachments. When they do, which side of the curve will your company be on? (Since your mind seems to be made up, Todd, that question is addressed to List at large.) Happy Independence Day, David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installer ™ david.brear...@solarprofessional.com mailto:david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 On Jul 3, 2012, at 10:37 PM, toddc...@finestplanet.com mailto:toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote: i wasn't going to enter into this discussion, but this posting prompted me. my most recent job was done with the assistance of the customer. he and i have a long working history, my being his employee some 25 years ago installing shw systems in the area, and now he hiring me to do his personal home's pv system. he insisted on straight L foot mounting without flashings... and i have to agree. in the 25 to 30 years since we did those shw systems, not a single one has leaked. plus, the installation was at the roof ridgeline, so pv quick mounts wouldn't have worked anyway. we put 2 X 8 blocking in the attic between the trusses to acomodate the mounting bolts and used a nice fattie gob of black silicone on each foot, which gooshed out when tightened. the mount will easily outlast the roof... leak free. honestly, i don't care what the ubc/ibs says. if done properly,these kinds of mounts are bombproof. years of experience backs this up. also, i have seen plenty of 'code compliant' oatey no-caulk sewer vent flashings with rotten rubber leaking into homes to know flashed penetrations are no panacea either. todd On Tuesday, July 3, 2012 2:53pm, David Brearley david.brear...@solarprofessional.com mailto:david.brear...@solarprofessional.com said: +1 on the use of structural screws. We ran an article about lag screws a couple years ago: http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP3_4_pg70_Shelly One of the things that surprised me when I read this manuscript is how variable lag screws are in terms of construction and quality. Besides the convenience of being able to drive a structural screw without a pilot hole, the engineering specs are likely better documented and the manufacturing tolerances are probably tighter as well. FWIW: I think that using unflashed attachments in these litigious times is unwise. It's not consistent with best practices in the construction industry. It does not meet building codes. It violates the roof warranty. It makes your competition look good. We ran our first article on this topic 4 years ago, in our inaugural issue of SolarPro magazine: http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP1_1_pg72_Fain The industry has come a long way since then, both in terms of awareness and in terms of off-the-shelf flashed attachment options. There are so many quality flashed attachment solutions to chose from now that I'm not sure why anyone would knowingly expose themselves to a possible construction negligence claim. Drive straight, David Brearley,
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
Bill, FWIW: none of the companies with flashed attachments solutions mentioned in the article we ran in SP1.1 were advertisers. Having said that, I do see a lot of articles in trade publications that are pretty shameless exercises in product placement. I've always found that off-putting and assumed that others feel the same way. That's why we try to develop content that does not insult our readers. Rather running a pay-to-play kind of shop, our goal has always been to publish the best technical content possible. If readers like the content, then we get more industry subscribers. Reaching that audience is desirable to advertisers. Having advertiser support allows us to compensate authors for their high quality technical content that readers enjoy. Ideally, it's a win-win-win situation. Let me know if there's something you think we could be doing better. Thanks, David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installer ™ david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 On Jul 4, 2012, at 2:25 PM, Bill Loesch wrote: David, Why does your editor put Todd's articles (and use him as a cover story) in your magazines (more than once, I believe) if it is not for his _experience_? The fact that there is a prescribed product (more than one in this case) that gets blessed when old fashioned, time tested, craftsmanship has already solved the problem is a testament to what payola will buy. No leak, no negligence, no claim. But then your magazines wouldn't garner such a big advertizing budget without all those manufacturers with new and improved products. Additionally, this List would perhaps have to find alternative funding, too. If you are really interested in eliminating the irresponsible, fly-by-night, subsidy chasers one easy way may be to eliminate the subsidy. Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar On 04-Jul-12 10:07 AM, David Brearley wrote: Todd, The issue isn't whether your approach works, but whether it is defensible in the event that something leaks. Most solar contractors receive public funds (rebate monies, ARRA program distributions, etc.). Some of those companies are installing systems in a manner that is not building code compliant. It just takes a high profile leaky roof at a VA hospital or a public housing project where a solar system was installed in a manner that does not meet the building code to lose years of goodwill and support for the industry. Modules prices have fallen quite a bit, but we all loose if State and Federal or public (opinion) support for the industry goes away. Obviously, that's the worst case scenario: That somehow the industry gets painted as being made up of a bunch of irresponsible, fly-by-night, subsidy chasers. Probably nothing to worry about, though. I'm pretty sure there's no precedence for that sort of thing actually happening. Right? What's more likely is that AHJs will get hip to the fact that they need to inspect the building code compliance of roof attachments. When they do, which side of the curve will your company be on? (Since your mind seems to be made up, Todd, that question is addressed to List at large.) Happy Independence Day, David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installer ™ david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 On Jul 3, 2012, at 10:37 PM, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote: i wasn't going to enter into this discussion, but this posting prompted me. my most recent job was done with the assistance of the customer. he and i have a long working history, my being his employee some 25 years ago installing shw systems in the area, and now he hiring me to do his personal home's pv system. he insisted on straight L foot mounting without flashings... and i have to agree. in the 25 to 30 years since we did those shw systems, not a single one has leaked. plus, the installation was at the roof ridgeline, so pv quick mounts wouldn't have worked anyway. we put 2 X 8 blocking in the attic between the trusses to acomodate the mounting bolts and used a nice fattie gob of black silicone on each foot, which gooshed out when tightened. the mount will easily outlast the roof... leak free. honestly, i don't care what the ubc/ibs says. if done properly, these kinds of mounts are bombproof. years of experience backs this up. also, i have seen plenty of 'code compliant' oatey no-caulk sewer vent flashings with rotten rubber leaking into homes to know flashed penetrations are no panacea either. todd On Tuesday, July 3, 2012 2:53pm, David Brearley david.brear...@solarprofessional.com said: +1 on the use of structural screws. We ran an article about lag screws a couple years ago: http://solarprofessional.com/article/?file=SP3_4_pg70_Shelly One of the things that surprised me when I read this
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
I use corrugated mounting bridges - that's the problem. If the center of the beam falls in the trough, the corrugated bridge is useless. I am not sure how blocking would help. Corrugated is a pain. On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 12:11 PM, David Brearley david.brear...@solarprofessional.com wrote: In some cases, you can install blocking to get up on the ridge consistently. One alternative to hangar bolts is to use corrugated mounting bridges from DPW Solar or something similar from another company. Sorry I can't link to the PDF. Google: corrugated mounting bridges Since exposed-fastener metal roofs already have a bunch of holes in them, you're not voiding the roof warranty by punching more holes in the ridge. (I don't think these roofs even meet the NRCA definition of a roof assembly because of the exposed penetrations.) Penetrations in the valleys on a roof are problematic for obvious reasons. On Jul 4, 2012, at 6:01 AM, Chris Mason wrote: All of this refers to shingle roofs, which we don't see much of. We mostly deal with concrete and corrugated steel/galvalume, the latter being a nightmare. Does anyone have good ideas for dealing with corrugated? There's no way to flash it, the blocks are fine when you hit a beam on the ridge but half the time your penetration has to be on the trough of the corrugated steel. Other than lots of goop, I don't know how else to seal it. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason President, Comet Systems Ltd www.cometenergysystems.com Cell: 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Outdoor woodstove/furnace and solar
Hi Wrenches, Have a client who wants to install an outdoor wood furnace for hydronic heating in his shop and home. Wondering if any have had experience with these. It seems like an intensive off-grid load because of fans and/or pumps. Any experience or model recommendations is appreciated, thanks! Ron Young earthRight - Solareagle ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Outdoor woodstove/furnace and solar
Been there on 2 occasions, the pumps may seem like small loads but there are usually many of them that (at least in this area) add up to a heck of a load for anything but a huge off grid system. Don't worry the problems that result will all be the power systems and/or the system installers fault. It all boils down to the furnace installer and he thinks they are electrically efficient. Add all of the loads up including the ones that run 24/7. On grid they're great, lots of small loads if off grid. Also many of the units are really junk, be careful. Later, Bob -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ron @ earthRight Solar Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2012 7:49 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outdoor woodstove/furnace and solar Hi Wrenches, Have a client who wants to install an outdoor wood furnace for hydronic heating in his shop and home. Wondering if any have had experience with these. It seems like an intensive off-grid load because of fans and/or pumps. Any experience or model recommendations is appreciated, thanks! Ron Young earthRight - Solareagle ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Outdoor woodstove/furnace and solar
I worked on one off grid system like this, it worked, but you have to have a big battery bank. Also, a really good generator is mandatory. Ray On Jul 4, 2012, at 5:59 PM, bob ellison wrote: Been there on 2 occasions, the pumps may seem like small loads but there are usually many of them that (at least in this area) add up to a heck of a load for anything but a huge off grid system. Don't worry the problems that result will all be the power systems and/or the system installers fault. It all boils down to the furnace installer and he thinks they are electrically efficient. Add all of the loads up including the ones that run 24/7. On grid they're great, lots of small loads if off grid. Also many of the units are really junk, be careful. Later, Bob -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ron @ earthRight Solar Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2012 7:49 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outdoor woodstove/furnace and solar Hi Wrenches, Have a client who wants to install an outdoor wood furnace for hydronic heating in his shop and home. Wondering if any have had experience with these. It seems like an intensive off-grid load because of fans and/or pumps. Any experience or model recommendations is appreciated, thanks! Ron Young earthRight - Solareagle ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
Chris, I'm pretty sure that what David means by blocking is if the roof has rafters (peak to eave) rather than purlins (horizontal) then, IF you can access the underside of the roof, you properly install 'blocking' (2x4, 2x6, 2x8) against the underside of the roof sheathing, perpendicular to the rafters. Then you can drill your bolt anywhere along the blocking which then eliminates the restriction of having to attach to a rafter every 16-24. Keep in mind that there are proper methods of doing this to make sure the blocking is properly attached to the rafters, otherwise any uplift pressure from the array is only supported by the roof material and not the structure (rafters/purlins) Then again, access to the underside of the roof is not always available or is restrictive, so this is an important factor to figure out before you land on site with your roof attachments and racking, ready to go. Cheers, benn DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. www.daystarsolar.ca 780-906-7807 Construction Electrician Solar Photovoltaic Systems Certified Certificate # 0007S HAVE A SUNNY DAY On 04/07/12 5:23 PM, Chris Mason cometenergysyst...@gmail.com wrote: I use corrugated mounting bridges - that's the problem. If the center of the beam falls in the trough, the corrugated bridge is useless. I am not sure how blocking would help. Corrugated is a pain. On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 12:11 PM, David Brearley david.brear...@solarprofessional.com wrote: In some cases, you can install blocking to get up on the ridge consistently. One alternative to hangar bolts is to use corrugated mounting bridges from DPW Solar or something similar from another company. Sorry I can't link to the PDF. Google: corrugated mounting bridges Since exposed-fastener metal roofs already have a bunch of holes in them, you're not voiding the roof warranty by punching more holes in the ridge. (I don't think these roofs even meet the NRCA definition of a roof assembly because of the exposed penetrations.) Penetrations in the valleys on a roof are problematic for obvious reasons. On Jul 4, 2012, at 6:01 AM, Chris Mason wrote: All of this refers to shingle roofs, which we don't see much of. We mostly deal with concrete and corrugated steel/galvalume, the latter being a nightmare. Does anyone have good ideas for dealing with corrugated? There's no way to flash it, the blocks are fine when you hit a beam on the ridge but half the time your penetration has to be on the trough of the corrugated steel. Other than lots of goop, I don't know how else to seal it. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
I've never had that luxury, generally the underside is visible and can't be changed. We get through but it's a pain. On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 8:36 PM, benn kilburn b...@daystarsolar.ca wrote: Chris, I'm pretty sure that what David means by blocking is if the roof has rafters (peak to eave) rather than purlins (horizontal) then, IF you can access the underside of the roof, you properly install 'blocking' (2x4, 2x6, 2x8) against the underside of the roof sheathing, perpendicular to the rafters. Then you can drill your bolt anywhere along the blocking which then eliminates the restriction of having to attach to a rafter every 16-24. Keep in mind that there are proper methods of doing this to make sure the blocking is properly attached to the rafters, otherwise any uplift pressure from the array is only supported by the roof material and not the structure (rafters/purlins) Then again, access to the underside of the roof is not always available or is restrictive, so this is an important factor to figure out before you land on site with your roof attachments and racking, ready to go. Cheers, benn DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. www.daystarsolar.ca 780-906-7807 Construction Electrician Solar Photovoltaic Systems Certified Certificate # 0007S HAVE A SUNNY DAY On 04/07/12 5:23 PM, Chris Mason cometenergysyst...@gmail.com wrote: I use corrugated mounting bridges - that's the problem. If the center of the beam falls in the trough, the corrugated bridge is useless. I am not sure how blocking would help. Corrugated is a pain. On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 12:11 PM, David Brearley david.brear...@solarprofessional.com wrote: In some cases, you can install blocking to get up on the ridge consistently. One alternative to hangar bolts is to use corrugated mounting bridges from DPW Solar or something similar from another company. Sorry I can't link to the PDF. Google: corrugated mounting bridges Since exposed-fastener metal roofs already have a bunch of holes in them, you're not voiding the roof warranty by punching more holes in the ridge. (I don't think these roofs even meet the NRCA definition of a roof assembly because of the exposed penetrations.) Penetrations in the valleys on a roof are problematic for obvious reasons. On Jul 4, 2012, at 6:01 AM, Chris Mason wrote: All of this refers to shingle roofs, which we don't see much of. We mostly deal with concrete and corrugated steel/galvalume, the latter being a nightmare. Does anyone have good ideas for dealing with corrugated? There's no way to flash it, the blocks are fine when you hit a beam on the ridge but half the time your penetration has to be on the trough of the corrugated steel. Other than lots of goop, I don't know how else to seal it. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason President, Comet Systems Ltd www.cometenergysystems.com Cell: 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Outdoor woodstove/furnace and solar
I have a Central Boiler brand of outdoor wood furnace. It has an electric damper that has to be powered whenever the fire is burning, which draws about 50 watts and a small circulator pump that draws a bit less than 100 watts. I stopped using it years ago because it consumed so much wood, but it worked great. It was a great way to get rid of pallets. Unfortunately it was most needed whenever there was not much sun, so it definitely increased generator run time. David Katz Sent from my HTC smartphone on the Now Network from Sprint! - Reply message - From: Ron @ earthRight Solar solarea...@solareagle.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outdoor woodstove/furnace and solar Date: Wed, Jul 4, 2012 4:48 pm Hi Wrenches, Have a client who wants to install an outdoor wood furnace for hydronic heating in his shop and home. Wondering if any have had experience with these. It seems like an intensive off-grid load because of fans and/or pumps. Any experience or model recommendations is appreciated, thanks! Ron Young earthRight - Solareagle ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmhttp://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.orghttp://www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] L feet no flashing in shingle roof
This is very interesting to me. I just added 2kW to my home and this thread inspired me. I did half the array using quick mount PV, and half the array using oatey flashing and a two piece stand-off. Along with that array I added a single module on a micro I picked up cheap. I attached that module with just L-feet and lexell. I used the L-feet on my garage because I just couldnt blast an L foot to the roof on my house. I did pilot all the attachment. As a previous carpenter (third generation) it was the way I was taught. I will report back in thirty years. Jesse Sent from my iPhone On Jul 4, 2012, at 7:39 PM, Chris Mason cometenergysyst...@gmail.com wrote: I've never had that luxury, generally the underside is visible and can't be changed. We get through but it's a pain. On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 8:36 PM, benn kilburn b...@daystarsolar.ca wrote: Chris, I'm pretty sure that what David means by blocking is if the roof has rafters (peak to eave) rather than purlins (horizontal) then, IF you can access the underside of the roof, you properly install 'blocking' (2x4, 2x6, 2x8) against the underside of the roof sheathing, perpendicular to the rafters. Then you can drill your bolt anywhere along the blocking which then eliminates the restriction of having to attach to a rafter every 16-24. Keep in mind that there are proper methods of doing this to make sure the blocking is properly attached to the rafters, otherwise any uplift pressure from the array is only supported by the roof material and not the structure (rafters/purlins) Then again, access to the underside of the roof is not always available or is restrictive, so this is an important factor to figure out before you land on site with your roof attachments and racking, ready to go. Cheers, benn DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. www.daystarsolar.ca 780-906-7807 Construction Electrician Solar Photovoltaic Systems Certified Certificate # 0007S HAVE A SUNNY DAY On 04/07/12 5:23 PM, Chris Mason cometenergysyst...@gmail.com wrote: I use corrugated mounting bridges - that's the problem. If the center of the beam falls in the trough, the corrugated bridge is useless. I am not sure how blocking would help. Corrugated is a pain. On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 12:11 PM, David Brearley david.brear...@solarprofessional.com wrote: In some cases, you can install blocking to get up on the ridge consistently. One alternative to hangar bolts is to use corrugated mounting bridges from DPW Solar or something similar from another company. Sorry I can't link to the PDF. Google: corrugated mounting bridges Since exposed-fastener metal roofs already have a bunch of holes in them, you're not voiding the roof warranty by punching more holes in the ridge. (I don't think these roofs even meet the NRCA definition of a roof assembly because of the exposed penetrations.) Penetrations in the valleys on a roof are problematic for obvious reasons. On Jul 4, 2012, at 6:01 AM, Chris Mason wrote: All of this refers to shingle roofs, which we don't see much of. We mostly deal with concrete and corrugated steel/galvalume, the latter being a nightmare. Does anyone have good ideas for dealing with corrugated? There's no way to flash it, the blocks are fine when you hit a beam on the ridge but half the time your penetration has to be on the trough of the corrugated steel. Other than lots of goop, I don't know how else to seal it. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason President, Comet Systems Ltd www.cometenergysystems.com Cell: 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
