Re: [RE-wrenches] Corrugated roofing mounts

[William Miller]

Chris:

We have used the S5 corrugated product before and choose not to repeat the 
experiment for these reasons:


1. Making roof perforations in any valley defies common sense.

2. The threaded mounting holes stripped very easily.

3. I have determined that most common wavelength of corrugated roofing we 
have encountered is 2.67".  If you don't have purlins, this is not a 
problem since a rafter is 1.5" wide.  Worse case scenario, if a rafter is 
not under the peak of the corrugation you scab a piece of 2X8 next to the 
rafter and achieve a mounting member to fasten to.  This is much easier 
than adding blocking to create purlins.  This only  works if you are 
installing a fastener through the peak of the corrugation.  With the S5 
product you have to find framing under two locations, not one.


William Miller


At 02:04 PM 2/16/2013, you wrote:
The S-5 bracket looked interesting until I realized that, on a rafter 
roof, you would never consistently find the rafter under the holes. Even 
with the SnapNRack single hole unit, getting it over 2 x 8 rafters is a 
nightmare. I have never seen rafters that would allow for holes through 
two valleys. So the only other way would be to fasten to the purloins. 
3/4" purloin strips are not going to give you a lot of embed.



On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 7:18 PM, August Goers 
<aug...@luminalt.com> wrote:

Hi William,

You may have already seen this corrugated bracket from S-5:

http://www.s-5.com/clamps/index_2624.cfm

I believe it's best to have the screws go into purlins. These are fairly 
low cost; contact me offlist if you want me to send you distributor 
contact info.


As far as figuring out what manufacturer/model of roof you have that can 
be tough. Maybe find original building drawings or a sticker somewhere on 
the underside? I've also found that the folks at S-5! are good at figuring 
out manufacturers.


Good luck! -August
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Corrugated roofing mounts

[Ray Walters]

I've got a project right now on a steel roof.  I was just at a trade 
show last week, so I got to look at the latest gizmo from S5.
I didn't like it at all, it didn't go into the valleys like the old 
mount, but drilled 4 holes into the side of the ridge, and just counted 
on the roofing to hold the modules.
I wanted to use the new ZEP rack, but never heard back from them, I 
guess my project is too small (4 Kw).
I'm going with SnapNRack blocks through the ridge top, and I'm going to 
go through the purlins into rafters or 2x blocking as needed.


Also,  a related subject, I'm using the new HeadLok Lags from 
FastenMaster.  They claim to be stronger than a 3/8" lag, but they have 
a 3/16"D shaft.
I've had trouble with regular cheap Home Depot lags twisting off, so at 
least these have actual strength ratings, and don't require predrilling.

They also have a no rust guarantee
Has anybody else used these? (or the similar Timberlok)?

Thanks,

R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified, Licensed Contractor
808 269-7491

On 2/18/2013 9:25 AM, William Miller wrote:

Chris:

We have used the S5 corrugated product before and choose not to repeat 
the experiment for these reasons:


1. Making roof perforations in any valley defies common sense.

2. The threaded mounting holes stripped very easily.

3. I have determined that most common wavelength of corrugated roofing 
we have encountered is 2.67".  If you don't have purlins, this is not 
a problem since a rafter is 1.5" wide.  Worse case scenario, if a 
rafter is not under the peak of the corrugation you scab a piece of 
2X8 next to the rafter and achieve a mounting member to fasten to.  
This is much easier than adding blocking to create purlins.  This 
only  works if you are installing a fastener through the peak of the 
corrugation.  With the S5 product you have to find framing under two 
locations, not one.


William Miller


At 02:04 PM 2/16/2013, you wrote:
The S-5 bracket looked interesting until I realized that, on a rafter 
roof, you would never consistently find the rafter under the holes. 
Even with the SnapNRack single hole unit, getting it over 2 x 8 
rafters is a nightmare. I have never seen rafters that would allow 
for holes through two valleys. So the only other way would be to 
fasten to the purloins. 3/4" purloin strips are not going to give you 
a lot of embed.



On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 7:18 PM, August Goers > wrote:


Hi William,

You may have already seen this corrugated bracket from S-5:

http://www.s-5.com/clamps/index_2624.cfm

I believe it's best to have the screws go into purlins. These are
fairly low cost; contact me offlist if you want me to send you
distributor contact info.

As far as figuring out what manufacturer/model of roof you have
that can be tough. Maybe find original building drawings or a
sticker somewhere on the underside? I've also found that the
folks at S-5! are good at figuring out manufacturers.

Good luck! -August 





___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Corrugated roofing mounts

[William Miller]

Ray:

We use the Simpson 1/4 by X" "Strong Drive"  (SDS series).  We get them in 
the hot dip galvanize version.  They are readily available locally.  I 
think building officials like the Simpson name on structural 
products.  They self drill and we have had no instance of them snapping off 
while being driven.


William Miller

At 09:26 AM 2/18/2013, Ray Walters wrote:
I've got a project right now on a steel roof.  I was just at a trade show 
last week, so I got to look at the latest gizmo from S5.
I didn't like it at all, it didn't go into the valleys like the old mount, 
but drilled 4 holes into the side of the ridge, and just counted on the 
roofing to hold the modules.
I wanted to use the new ZEP rack, but never heard back from them, I guess 
my project is too small (4 Kw).
I'm going with SnapNRack blocks through the ridge top, and I'm going to go 
through the purlins into rafters or 2x blocking as needed.


Also,  a related subject, I'm using the new HeadLok Lags from 
FastenMaster.  They claim to be stronger than a 3/8" lag, but they have a 
3/16"D shaft.
I've had trouble with regular cheap Home Depot lags twisting off, so at 
least these have actual strength ratings, and don't require predrilling.

They also have a no rust guarantee
Has anybody else used these? (or the similar Timberlok)?

Thanks,

R.Ray Walters


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Corrugated roofing mounts

[Ray Walters]

The Simpson screws look very similar to the Headloks.  I just looked at 
the Simpson SDS, and I see they are available in 316 Stainless as well.

That would be my choice near the ocean, but I'm guessing they're spendy.

R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified, Licensed Contractor
808 269-7491

On 2/18/2013 11:08 AM, William Miller wrote:

Ray:

We use the Simpson 1/4 by X" "Strong Drive"  (SDS series).  We get 
them in the hot dip galvanize version.  They are readily available 
locally.  I think building officials like the Simpson name on 
structural products.  They self drill and we have had no instance of 
them snapping off while being driven.


William Miller

At 09:26 AM 2/18/2013, Ray Walters wrote:
I've got a project right now on a steel roof.  I was just at a trade 
show last week, so I got to look at the latest gizmo from S5.
I didn't like it at all, it didn't go into the valleys like the old 
mount, but drilled 4 holes into the side of the ridge, and just 
counted on the roofing to hold the modules.
I wanted to use the new ZEP rack, but never heard back from them, I 
guess my project is too small (4 Kw).
I'm going with SnapNRack blocks through the ridge top, and I'm going 
to go through the purlins into rafters or 2x blocking as needed.


Also,  a related subject, I'm using the new HeadLok Lags from 
FastenMaster.  They claim to be stronger than a 3/8" lag, but they 
have a 3/16"D shaft.
I've had trouble with regular cheap Home Depot lags twisting off, so 
at least these have actual strength ratings, and don't require 
predrilling.

They also have a no rust guarantee
Has anybody else used these? (or the similar Timberlok)?

Thanks,

R.Ray Walters



___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org



___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

[RE-wrenches] CIS mods

[Marco Mangelsdorf]

Aloha,

 

Solar Frontier in Japan, the maker of copper-indium-selenium (CIS) mods,
claims that their product produces more kWhs per kW installed than
crystalline silicon.

 

http://www.solar-frontier.com/eng/cis/index.html  If you go to the Softbank
Field Results on the right tabs area you can download a 4-page PDF report.

 

I'm wondering if this is a hot-out-of-the-box phenomenon similar to some
other non-cSi products and that after X months in the field the output
stabilizes at a lower level.

 

Anyone have any idea or experience with this?

 

Thanks,

marco

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] Corrugated roofing mounts

[Chris Worcester]

We use the SDS galv up here in the mountains, they are tough, haven't
snapped one, the engineer loves spec'ing them.

 

Sincerely,

Chris Worcester

Solar Wind Works
NABCEP Certified PV Installer
Phone: 530-582-4503

C: 530-448-9692
Fax: 530-582-4603
www.solarwindworks.com  
ch...@solarwindworks.com
"Proven Energy Solutions"

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 10:42 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Corrugated roofing mounts

 

The Simpson screws look very similar to the Headloks.  I just looked at the
Simpson SDS, and I see they are available in 316 Stainless as well.
That would be my choice near the ocean, but I'm guessing they're spendy.



R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified, Licensed Contractor
808 269-7491

On 2/18/2013 11:08 AM, William Miller wrote:

Ray:

We use the Simpson 1/4 by X" "Strong Drive"  (SDS series).  We get them in
the hot dip galvanize version.  They are readily available locally.  I think
building officials like the Simpson name on structural products.  They self
drill and we have had no instance of them snapping off while being driven.

William Miller

At 09:26 AM 2/18/2013, Ray Walters wrote:



I've got a project right now on a steel roof.  I was just at a trade show
last week, so I got to look at the latest gizmo from S5. 
I didn't like it at all, it didn't go into the valleys like the old mount,
but drilled 4 holes into the side of the ridge, and just counted on the
roofing to hold the modules.
I wanted to use the new ZEP rack, but never heard back from them, I guess my
project is too small (4 Kw).
I'm going with SnapNRack blocks through the ridge top, and I'm going to go
through the purlins into rafters or 2x blocking as needed.

Also,  a related subject, I'm using the new HeadLok Lags from FastenMaster.
They claim to be stronger than a 3/8" lag, but they have a 3/16"D shaft.
I've had trouble with regular cheap Home Depot lags twisting off, so at
least these have actual strength ratings, and don't require predrilling.
They also have a no rust guarantee
Has anybody else used these? (or the similar Timberlok)?

Thanks,

R.Ray Walters






___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine
 
List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
 
Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
 
List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
 
List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
 
Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org
 

 

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] CIS mods

[Carl Emerson]

Marco.

 

Did you notice the claim in the text as follows.

 

The "Light Soaking" Effect
Following an initial period of exposure to sunlight, the CIS light soaking
effect will result in higher output than factory spec. This has been proven
by field data from around the world

 

If correct this answers your question.

 

Time will tell I guess.

 

Regards
Carl Emerson

 

 

 

 

Aloha,

 

Solar Frontier in Japan, the maker of copper-indium-selenium (CIS) mods,
claims that their product produces more kWhs per kW installed than
crystalline silicon.

 

http://www.solar-frontier.com/eng/cis/index.html  If you go to the Softbank
Field Results on the right tabs area you can download a 4-page PDF report.

 

I'm wondering if this is a hot-out-of-the-box phenomenon similar to some
other non-cSi products and that after X months in the field the output
stabilizes at a lower level.

 

Anyone have any idea or experience with this?

 

Thanks,

marco

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] CIS mods

[Marco Mangelsdorf]

Yes, I saw that.  Sounds like smoke and mirrors to me.

marco

On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 1:38 PM, Carl Emerson  wrote:

>  *Marco.*
>
> * *
>
> *Did you notice the claim in the text as follows…*
>
> * *
>
> *The "Light Soaking" Effect*
> Following an initial period of exposure to sunlight, the CIS light soaking
> effect will result in higher output than factory spec. This has been
> proven by field data from around the world
>
> ** **
>
> If correct this answers your question…
>
> ** **
>
> Time will tell I guess.
>
> ** **
>
> Regards
> Carl Emerson
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> ** **
>
> Aloha,
>
> ** **
>
> Solar Frontier in Japan, the maker of copper-indium-selenium (CIS) mods,
> claims that their product produces more kWhs per kW installed than
> crystalline silicon.
>
> ** **
>
> http://www.solar-frontier.com/eng/cis/index.html  If you go to the
> Softbank Field Results on the right tabs area you can download a 4-page PDF
> report.
>
> ** **
>
> I’m wondering if this is a hot-out-of-the-box phenomenon similar to some
> other non-cSi products and that after X months in the field the output
> stabilizes at a lower level.
>
> ** **
>
> Anyone have any idea or experience with this?
>
> ** **
>
> Thanks,
>
> marco
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] CIS mods

[Kirpal Khalsa]

I don't understand the text as stated.I am not sure if they are simply
referring to a common effect in most thin film panels where for the first
few months they can output more than ratings, and then they settle down to
what they are rated for, or if they are saying that after a few months the
output will increase, once they are "light soaked"?
-- 
Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
Renewable Energy Systems
www.oregonsolarworks.com

On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 4:13 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote:

> Yes, I saw that.  Sounds like smoke and mirrors to me.
>
> marco
>
> On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 1:38 PM, Carl Emerson wrote:
>
>>  *Marco.*
>>
>> * *
>>
>> *Did you notice the claim in the text as follows…*
>>
>> * *
>>
>> *The "Light Soaking" Effect*
>> Following an initial period of exposure to sunlight, the CIS light
>> soaking effect will result in higher output than factory spec. This has
>> been proven by field data from around the world
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> If correct this answers your question…
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Time will tell I guess.
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Regards
>> Carl Emerson
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Aloha,
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Solar Frontier in Japan, the maker of copper-indium-selenium (CIS) mods,
>> claims that their product produces more kWhs per kW installed than
>> crystalline silicon.
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> http://www.solar-frontier.com/eng/cis/index.html  If you go to the
>> Softbank Field Results on the right tabs area you can download a 4-page PDF
>> report.
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> I’m wondering if this is a hot-out-of-the-box phenomenon similar to some
>> other non-cSi products and that after X months in the field the output
>> stabilizes at a lower level.
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Anyone have any idea or experience with this?
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> marco
>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Options & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List-Archive:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List rules & etiquette:
>> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>
>> Check out participant bios:
>> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>
>>
>>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Home Power magazine
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
> Options & settings:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List-Archive:
> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>
> List rules & etiquette:
> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>
> Check out participant bios:
> www.members.re-wrenches.org
>
>
>
___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] CIS mods

[Carl Emerson]

Kirpal,

 

I understand that they don't behave like A-Si modules.

 

They are claiming increased performance after soaking.

 

Regards
Carl Emerson

 

 

 

 

 

I don't understand the text as stated.I am not sure if they are simply
referring to a common effect in most thin film panels where for the first
few months they can output more than ratings, and then they settle down to
what they are rated for, or if they are saying that after a few months the
output will increase, once they are "light soaked"?  

-- 
Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
Renewable Energy Systems
www.oregonsolarworks.com

On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 4:13 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf 
wrote:

Yes, I saw that.  Sounds like smoke and mirrors to me.

 

marco

On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 1:38 PM, Carl Emerson  wrote:

Marco.

 

Did you notice the claim in the text as follows.

 

The "Light Soaking" Effect
Following an initial period of exposure to sunlight, the CIS light soaking
effect will result in higher output than factory spec. This has been proven
by field data from around the world

 

If correct this answers your question.

 

Time will tell I guess.

 

Regards
Carl Emerson

 

 

 

 

Aloha,

 

Solar Frontier in Japan, the maker of copper-indium-selenium (CIS) mods,
claims that their product produces more kWhs per kW installed than
crystalline silicon.

 

http://www.solar-frontier.com/eng/cis/index.html  If you go to the Softbank
Field Results on the right tabs area you can download a 4-page PDF report.

 

I'm wondering if this is a hot-out-of-the-box phenomenon similar to some
other non-cSi products and that after X months in the field the output
stabilizes at a lower level.

 

Anyone have any idea or experience with this?

 

Thanks,

marco


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org  





___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org







 

 

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] CIS mods

[Marco Mangelsdorf]

Can someone please educate as to what "soaking" means in this context?

 

Thanks.

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Carl Emerson
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 3:01 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] CIS mods

 

Kirpal,

 

I understand that they don't behave like A-Si modules.

 

They are claiming increased performance after soaking.

 

Regards
Carl Emerson

 

 

 

 

 

I don't understand the text as stated.I am not sure if they are simply
referring to a common effect in most thin film panels where for the first
few months they can output more than ratings, and then they settle down to
what they are rated for, or if they are saying that after a few months the
output will increase, once they are "light soaked"?  

-- 
Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
Renewable Energy Systems
www.oregonsolarworks.com

On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 4:13 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf 
wrote:

Yes, I saw that.  Sounds like smoke and mirrors to me.

 

marco

On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 1:38 PM, Carl Emerson  wrote:

Marco.

 

Did you notice the claim in the text as follows.

 

The "Light Soaking" Effect
Following an initial period of exposure to sunlight, the CIS light soaking
effect will result in higher output than factory spec. This has been proven
by field data from around the world

 

If correct this answers your question.

 

Time will tell I guess.

 

Regards
Carl Emerson

 

 

 

 

Aloha,

 

Solar Frontier in Japan, the maker of copper-indium-selenium (CIS) mods,
claims that their product produces more kWhs per kW installed than
crystalline silicon.

 

http://www.solar-frontier.com/eng/cis/index.html  If you go to the Softbank
Field Results on the right tabs area you can download a 4-page PDF report.

 

I'm wondering if this is a hot-out-of-the-box phenomenon similar to some
other non-cSi products and that after X months in the field the output
stabilizes at a lower level.

 

Anyone have any idea or experience with this?

 

Thanks,

marco


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org  



___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org





 

 

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] CIS mods

[Doug Wells]

Ok so its a reading night.
There are a bunch of very good papers about this effect on all the different 
types of modules.
www1.eere.energy.gov/…dfs/pvmrw2011_p25_tf_dunn.pdf
Best summary of Soaking would be :   controlled exposure to light under 
controlled environmental conditions.
The "soaking" seems to come from exposing the panel to light for --extended-- 
periods.
Thus finding the effects on the panel after it has reached a critical point of 
light exposure.
Like a sponge, the panel has been fully soaked with light.
Then they observe effects.  Some pretty interesting effects in some panels.
Doug Wells
The Solar Specialists
Morrisville, VT 05661
(p) 802-223-7014
(c) 802-498-5856
www.thesolarspecialists.com

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] CIS mods

[John Berdner]

Light soaking = exposed to sunlight for some period of time in order to 
complete light induced degradation (or apparently light induced enhancement).

Best Regards,

John Berdner
General Manager, North America

[cid:image001.jpg@01CE0E09.55EDDEB0]

SolarEdge Technologies, Inc.
3347 Gateway Boulevard, Fremont CA 94538 USA  (*Please note of our new address.)
T: 510.498.3200, X 747
M: 530.277.4894

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco 
Mangelsdorf
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 5:37 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] CIS mods

Can someone please educate as to what "soaking" means in this context?

Thanks.

From: 
re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
 [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Carl Emerson
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 3:01 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] CIS mods

Kirpal,

I understand that they don't behave like A-Si modules.

They are claiming increased performance after soaking.

Regards
Carl Emerson





I don't understand the text as stated.I am not sure if they are simply 
referring to a common effect in most thin film panels where for the first few 
months they can output more than ratings, and then they settle down to what 
they are rated for, or if they are saying that after a few months the output 
will increase, once they are "light soaked"?
--
Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer
Renewable Energy Systems
www.oregonsolarworks.com
On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 4:13 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf 
mailto:ma...@pvthawaii.com>> wrote:
Yes, I saw that.  Sounds like smoke and mirrors to me.

marco
On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 1:38 PM, Carl Emerson 
mailto:c...@solarking.net.nz>> wrote:
Marco.

Did you notice the claim in the text as follows...

The "Light Soaking" Effect
Following an initial period of exposure to sunlight, the CIS light soaking 
effect will result in higher output than factory spec. This has been proven by 
field data from around the world

If correct this answers your question...

Time will tell I guess.

Regards
Carl Emerson




Aloha,

Solar Frontier in Japan, the maker of copper-indium-selenium (CIS) mods, claims 
that their product produces more kWhs per kW installed than crystalline silicon.

http://www.solar-frontier.com/eng/cis/index.html  If you go to the Softbank 
Field Results on the right tabs area you can download a 4-page PDF report.

I'm wondering if this is a hot-out-of-the-box phenomenon similar to some other 
non-cSi products and that after X months in the field the output stabilizes at 
a lower level.

Anyone have any idea or experience with this?

Thanks,
marco

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: 
RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: 
RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org




CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail and its attachments are intended only for 
the use of the individual or entity who is the intended recipient and may 
contain information that is privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure 
or any type of use under applicable law. If the reader of this e-mail is not 
the intended recipient, or the employee, agent, or representative responsible 
for delivering the e-mail to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified 
that any dissemination, distribution, copying, or other use of this e-mail is 
strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please reply 
immediately to the sender.
P  Please think of the environment before printing this email
<>___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participan

Re: [RE-wrenches] CIS mods

[Marco Mangelsdorf]

I couldn't get that link to work, Doug.

 

Thanks.

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Doug Wells
Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 4:19 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] CIS mods

 

Ok so its a reading night.

There are a bunch of very good papers about this effect on all the different
types of modules.
www1.eere.energy.gov/

.dfs/pvmrw2011_p25_tf_dunn.pdf 

Best summary of Soaking would be :   controlled exposure to light under
controlled environmental conditions.

The "soaking" seems to come from exposing the panel to light for
--extended-- periods.

Thus finding the effects on the panel after it has reached a critical point
of light exposure.

Like a sponge, the panel has been fully soaked with light.

Then they observe effects.  Some pretty interesting effects in some panels.

Doug Wells

The Solar Specialists

Morrisville, VT 05661

(p) 802-223-7014

(c) 802-498-5856

www.thesolarspecialists.com  

 

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] CIS mods

[Carl Emerson]

Doug,

 

I could be wrong but I don’t think that definition of soaking is correct.

 

Typically it takes 6 months of good sunlight minimum for a module to reach a
stable output, this is particularly true of A-Si . For example a US64 will
degrade 15% and then settle at the label rating after 6 months of soaking in
good sun.

 

I attach a link to a report on this issue…

 

 
http://www.physics.arizona.edu/~cronin/Solar/References/Degradation/carr%20P
V%20comparison%202004.pdf 

 

This report shows degradation across different technologies. I would stress
that real word performance is the more important factor as the report
concludes…  “The triple junction a-Si modules produce over 15% more energy
than BP275(c-Si) does in summer, and around 8% more in winter…”  Yet in the
degradation stakes it did less well.

 

Producing energy should be the first consideration. 25 degrees C and
1000W/M² almost never exists in real life yet is the industry bench mark
behind which many manufacturers have hidden poor performance. At realistic
temperatures of 50 – 60 degrees C many Poly and Mono panels only manage 60%
of their rating. Additionally, none of the industry standard measurements
allow for a panels ability to respond to light being captured at high angles
of incidence, therefore at times of global irradiance, some panels
performance drops off quite seriously.

 

Excuse the rave… pet subject.

 

Regards
Carl Emerson

 

 

Ok so its a reading night.

There are a bunch of very good papers about this effect on all the different
types of modules.
www1.eere.energy.gov/

…dfs/pvmrw2011_p25_tf_dunn.pdf 

Best summary of Soaking would be :   controlled exposure to light under
controlled environmental conditions.

The "soaking" seems to come from exposing the panel to light for
--extended-- periods.

Thus finding the effects on the panel after it has reached a critical point
of light exposure.

Like a sponge, the panel has been fully soaked with light.

Then they observe effects.  Some pretty interesting effects in some panels.

Doug Wells

The Solar Specialists

Morrisville, VT 05661

(p) 802-223-7014

(c) 802-498-5856

www.thesolarspecialists.com  

 

___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org

Re: [RE-wrenches] CIS mods

[Dave Click]

This could just be due to the better temperature coefficient, or maybe 
they do slightly better than cSi at lower irradiance levels?


Solar Frontier CIS: -0.31%/degC
SolarWorld poly: -0.45%/degC

I don't know enough about CIS to comment on the light soaking.

On 2013/2/18 8:36, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote:

Aloha,

Solar Frontier in Japan, the maker of copper-indium-selenium (CIS) mods,
claims that their product produces more kWhs per kW installed than
crystalline silicon.

http://www.solar-frontier.com/eng/cis/index.html  If you go to the
Softbank Field Results on the right tabs area you can download a 4-page
PDF report.

I’m wondering if this is a hot-out-of-the-box phenomenon similar to some
other non-cSi products and that after X months in the field the output
stabilizes at a lower level.

Anyone have any idea or experience with this?

Thanks,

marco



___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org


___
List sponsored by Home Power magazine

List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Options & settings:
http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org

List rules & etiquette:
www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm

Check out participant bios:
www.members.re-wrenches.org