Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable tray
We have had good luck with Snake Trayhttp://snaketray.com/solar/ from Cable Management Solutions. Comes in Galv and Stainless, 2 x 2 or 4 x 4 [NYLE LOGO SMALL] Mark Richardson mrichard...@newyorklightenergy.commailto:mrichard...@newyorklightenergy.com From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2013 8:24 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable tray We use Cablofil but at $10/ft, it's OK for the inverter area but for large roofs, it is expensive. On Sun, Mar 24, 2013 at 3:39 PM, Kirk k...@vtsolar.commailto:k...@vtsolar.com wrote: I like William Miller's idea of slitting PVC conduit. Must be a little tricky ripping it with a saw. It's fastened to the rails using stainless clamps. There are pictures of it and other good wire mgt. on his website. I have not found a reasonably priced wire tray to attach to the rails. Especially outdoor-rated. Kirk Herander VSE On Mar 24, 2013, at 8:07 AM, Chris Mason cometenergysyst...@gmail.commailto:cometenergysyst...@gmail.com wrote: I don't want the enclosed type, I am looking for wire tray as we will support the airco pipes and some conduits. On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 9:33 PM, Max Balchowsky m...@seesolar.commailto:m...@seesolar.com wrote: I don't know your exact application, but I've used Carlon wireways for years. Our application most of the time was to use the 4x4 gutter in lieu of metal gutter under the inverters,disconnects, Panelboards, etc. http://www.carlonsales.com/wiresafe.php Max Balchowsky Design Engineer SEE Systems 1048 Irvine Ave Suite 217 Newport Beach, Ca. 92660 760-403-6810tel:760-403-6810 Building a Better Future For The Next Generation From: Chris Mason cometenergysyst...@gmail.commailto:cometenergysyst...@gmail.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 12:07 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable tray I'm looking for flat roof cable tray system that is cost effective. We previously used Cablofil and Cablo-port FSL 12 tray but it is very expensive for our current application due to the size of the roof. We need to install about 200' of tray and Cablofil galvanized is eating up the budget. Can anyone recommend a cheaper alternative. -- Chris Mason ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmhttp://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.orghttp://www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmhttp://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.orghttp://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason President, Comet Systems Ltd www.cometenergysystems.comhttp://www.cometenergysystems.com Cell: 264.235.5670tel:264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmhttp://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.orghttp://www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmhttp://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.orghttp://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason President, Comet Systems Ltd www.cometenergysystems.comhttp://www.cometenergysystems.com Cell: 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts inline: image003.jpg___ List sponsored by Home Power
Re: [RE-wrenches] P1 micro performance
Fellow Wrenches, No stones from this Missouri P.E. Perhaps if more Greybeards gave such candid comments it might influence others toward something other than a race to the bottom. Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar 314 631 1094 On 24-Mar-13 12:07 PM, Ray Walters wrote: Hear, Hear, Carl. That has also always been my experience as well. In my off grid work, reliability trumps budget, and I almost always over size charge controllers, relays, inverters, fuse holders, etc. Most failures seem to be related to pushing the design limits of the equipment. I spent the past year working on multi MW systems, where they saved every penny possible. The inverters were undersized by 20 to 25% but sitting in unairconditioned enclosures. Even better that the projected 30 year life of the system did not even include inverter replacements. I'm sure I shall be stoned to death for saying this, but basically the grid tie solar community just doesn't have enough experience under its belt yet to have seen what we learned a decade ago in the off grid world. When they start putting call backs, down time, inverter replacements, and the related loss of respect and business into their spread sheets; they'll start oversizing the inverters more, like you, Marco, and many of us already know. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/23/2013 7:19 PM, Carl Emerson wrote: Friends, I am a little puzzled by this topic. What has happened to the good engineering practice of sizing electronic equipment so that it is not driven to the maximum. My understanding is that the MTBF increases significantly the harder you drive the unit. This seems to be a case of overdriving the units for short term gain. *Carl Emerson* *Free Power Co. * *Auckland N.Z.*** What I *can't* answer is the long-term effect this may have on the overall life of the inverter. THAT depends on various intricate design considerations that went into creating the inverter in the first place. Dan Lepinski, Senior Engineer Exeltech / Exeltech Solar Products With 41 years experience as a design engineer in solar energy. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com http://www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6187 - Release Date: 03/18/13 - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2904 / Virus Database: 2641/6187 - Release Date: 03/18/13___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] diesel vs. solar
Does anyone know of an efficient calculator tool to help compare diesel /gas generator to PV + batt + small generator for an off-grid vacation house? Regards, Erika ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] diesel vs. solar
Erika - HOMER (http://www.homerenergy.com/) is a hybrid power system modeling tool for on- or off-grid applications. There is a 2 week free trial period and then it costs $100 for a 6 month software license. I haven't used it yet but have heard good things. - Andrew Truitt Sent from my iPad On Mar 25, 2013, at 7:15 AM, Erika Weliczko er...@repowersolutions.com wrote: Does anyone know of an efficient calculator tool to help compare diesel /gas generator to PV + batt + small generator for an off-grid vacation house? Regards, Erika ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] P1 micro performance
Marco, I still challenge those who believe that “some clipping is good” to make their case. Well, the way you've phrased it, you've made my job pretty easy-- though it seems to me that several folks have already done this for you. Some power limiting at some point over the 25-year life of a system is definitely a good thing. A 25-year life corresponds to about 110,000 hours of daylight. Let's say that you can expect one total hour of those 110,000 in which a Montana system sees 1600 W/m2 (high slope, snow reflection, edge-of-cloud) while simultaneously experiencing a record low temperature and 50 mph winds. Would you put a 9kW inverter on your 5kW array to avoid any power limiting ever? Of course not-- you're substantially increasing system cost for a $0.15 gain. It comes down to figuring out probabilities and doing some complicated and annoying math to figure out the best size for an inverter. Or more realistically, attempting to get high-sample-rate weather data to simulate array performance at your target location. When you oversize an inverter, your system will be operating at a lower efficiency, on average. It increases the cost to the customer not just from the base cost of the larger unit, but also the larger output conductor and raceway sizes, the output disconnect, the interconnection breakers/fuses... and maybe even upsized panelboards that didn't actually need to be upgraded had you correctly sized the inverters. So you have to figure out whether the additional production is worth the increased cost of installation. Oversizing an inverter may extend its life but I don't know that we'll ever have those numbers from manufacturers to better quantify that impact. More current causes more heat, which is bad, but increasing an inverter size to the next higher power rating available doesn't guarantee that the larger inverter will be more reliable. So that's a general response. As for your Power-One 250 vs Enphase 224 conundrum, if all else is equal but the power rating, then I'd probably join you in choosing the Power-One. But as you know, there are other factors to take into account-- [perceived] reliability, BOS cost (e.g. more Enphase units fitting on a 20A breaker may save you a circuit), DAS usefulness, resistance to corrosion, and the fact that Enphase operates at a higher conversion efficiency in the lower half of its operating range (where it spends most of its operating time). I am not saying that Enphase is better than Power-One in anything but low-range efficiency-- I don't know one way or the other. Efficiency Curves: http://gosolarcalifornia.com/equipment/inverter_tests/summaries/Enphase%20M215%20IG-240V.pdf http://gosolarcalifornia.com/equipment/inverter_tests/summaries/Power-One%20MICRO-0.25-I-OUTD-US-240.pdf After all this discussion, it's pretty funny that the peak conversion efficiency of the 250W Power-One micro occurs at... a 250W output. So even though the marketing guys tell you you should only plug in a 265W module, the engineers are clearly asking you to turn it up to 11. Do you, Mr./Mrs./Ms. Homeowner, want a PV system that produces as much solar kWhs for your investment as possible? isn't the right question to ask. Try, Do you, Mr./Mrs./Ms. Homeowner, want a PV system that produces the best value for your investment? Then show your super impressive calculations, based on your years of experience, that your recommended inverter is the best fit for them. Allowing for maximum kWh harvesting, within reason, is the best design strategy. Dave 5.376kWdc on a 5.000kWac, and loving it On 2013/3/23 19:31, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote: From Dan at Exeltech: Trying to explain in depth the how and why slightly larger PV is of benefit to a customer is like trying to explain photovoltaic equipment to the general public. I still challenge those who believe that “some clipping is good” to make their case. And as far as the general buying public, I’m find that people do in fact understand when you ask them the following questions: Do you, Mr./Mrs./Ms. Homeowner, want a PV system that produces as much solar kWhs for your investment as possible? Usual response: absolutely. If I give you the choice of PV system using a 250-watt module paired with a COMPARABLY priced 250-watt micro inverter OR that same 250-watt module with a max output ~ 224-watt micro inverter that will never under any circumstances allow that 250-watt module to put out its max rated power output, which option do you think they’ll choose? They get that. It doesn’t take someone with an engineering degree or 10-40 years in the field to get that simple premise. For what it’s worth, being here in the tropics in the Hawaiian islands we don’t get those bright and sunny and cold late fall/winter/early spring days that will allow for an array to put out its STC-rated power. But seeing regular times during the day—any time of year—where the irradiance is more than 1,000
Re: [RE-wrenches] diesel vs. solar
Also, Windy Dankoff's old spread sheet that I adapted calculates generator run time per week, and Maui SOlar software does a good job of calculating generator hours per year. I've used Homer and found it to be pretty far off from off grid reality. Any off grid application is going to benefit from inverters and batteries to keep the generator from having to run 24/7. Next, adding at least some PV to trickle charge the batteries is often a no brainer. . You definitely don't need as much battery in a hybrid system. Its not just a fuel issue, generator replacement and maintenance, along with more esoteric considerations like noise, and smell, need to be factored in as well. Figuring the ratio of generator run time vs. PV is a bit trickier, but I found you can sneak up on that calculation by starting with the generator, batteries, inverters, and smallish PV, then add more PV incrementally while monitoring gen run time. Real performance numbers always beat computer simulations, especially off grid, where it is often tough to characterize the real life complexity of the loads. There is a point if your baseline 24/7 loads are large enough, a full time generator makes sense, but unless its in Alaska, some PV almost always makes sense as well. Also the loads will determine how much design time to put in before hand. If your looking at a 50kw generator or up, you need to invest in some software and/ or get an off grid design specialist on board. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/25/2013 7:37 AM, Andrew Truitt wrote: Erika - HOMER (http://www.homerenergy.com/) is a hybrid power system modeling tool for on- or off-grid applications. There is a 2 week free trial period and then it costs $100 for a 6 month software license. I haven't used it yet but have heard good things. - Andrew Truitt Sent from my iPad On Mar 25, 2013, at 7:15 AM, Erika Weliczko er...@repowersolutions.com mailto:er...@repowersolutions.com wrote: Does anyone know of an efficient calculator tool to help compare diesel /gas generator to PV + batt + small generator for an off-grid vacation house? Regards, Erika ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org http://www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] diesel vs. solar
To add to Andrew's comments There are legacy versions of Homer developed by NREL that are free but unsupported and updated available at the same website. Good Luck On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 7:37 AM, Andrew Truitt atru...@gmail.com wrote: Erika - HOMER (http://www.homerenergy.com/) is a hybrid power system modeling tool for on- or off-grid applications. There is a 2 week free trial period and then it costs $100 for a 6 month software license. I haven't used it yet but have heard good things. - Andrew Truitt Sent from my iPad On Mar 25, 2013, at 7:15 AM, Erika Weliczko er...@repowersolutions.com wrote: Does anyone know of an efficient calculator tool to help compare diesel /gas generator to PV + batt + small generator for an off-grid vacation house? ** ** Regards, Erika ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis * Yo solo sé que no sé nada. -Sócrates * ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] diesel vs. solar
+1 for Maui Software. It is really helpful for finding the array-to-battery-to-generator capacity sweet spot. You can also use it to model things like the impact of various generator start/stop triggers. If you have monthly kWh meter readings for the site, you can build a daily average load profile on a month by month basis. (Better yet, monitor the daily load for a few weeks or months in the design season and use this as the basis for your model.) Then you can model system performance over a typical year and see when the generator is expected to run. The equipment library used to be pretty thin—and probably still is—but you can add equipment to the database. Or just model performance using similar equipment. When I used the software it didn't have the ability to model an AC coupled system. But for a typical DC coupled system, it will produce a lot of interesting/nerdy charts that will help designers anticipate high level performance trends for a proposed system. On Mar 25, 2013, at 10:18 AM, Ray Walters wrote: Also, Windy Dankoff's old spread sheet that I adapted calculates generator run time per week, and Maui SOlar software does a good job of calculating generator hours per year. I've used Homer and found it to be pretty far off from off grid reality. Any off grid application is going to benefit from inverters and batteries to keep the generator from having to run 24/7. Next, adding at least some PV to trickle charge the batteries is often a no brainer. . You definitely don't need as much battery in a hybrid system. Its not just a fuel issue, generator replacement and maintenance, along with more esoteric considerations like noise, and smell, need to be factored in as well. Figuring the ratio of generator run time vs. PV is a bit trickier, but I found you can sneak up on that calculation by starting with the generator, batteries, inverters, and smallish PV, then add more PV incrementally while monitoring gen run time. Real performance numbers always beat computer simulations, especially off grid, where it is often tough to characterize the real life complexity of the loads. There is a point if your baseline 24/7 loads are large enough, a full time generator makes sense, but unless its in Alaska, some PV almost always makes sense as well. Also the loads will determine how much design time to put in before hand. If your looking at a 50kw generator or up, you need to invest in some software and/ or get an off grid design specialist on board. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 3/25/2013 7:37 AM, Andrew Truitt wrote: Erika - HOMER (http://www.homerenergy.com/) is a hybrid power system modeling tool for on- or off-grid applications. There is a 2 week free trial period and then it costs $100 for a 6 month software license. I haven't used it yet but have heard good things. - Andrew Truitt Sent from my iPad On Mar 25, 2013, at 7:15 AM, Erika Weliczko er...@repowersolutions.com wrote: Does anyone know of an efficient calculator tool to help compare diesel /gas generator to PV + batt + small generator for an off-grid vacation house? Regards, Erika ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List
Re: [RE-wrenches] diesel vs. solar
I totally agree with Ray. Generator scheduled maintenance is a huge issue that I have not seen quantified monatarily. The dire de-rate factors from every piece of software and every spreadsheet we've tried seriously underestimate actually off grid system performance we measure in the bush -- that's the correct direction to be off on the calcs, but still. Same with generator de-rates for altitude. They de-rate the performance of the engine, but not the electrical output. Some engines deal with it far better than others. And Dan Fink, Executive Director; Otherpower Buckville Energy Consulting Buckville Publications LLC NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers 970.672.4342 On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 9:18 AM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote: Also, Windy Dankoff's old spread sheet that I adapted calculates generator run time per week, and Maui SOlar software does a good job of calculating generator hours per year. I've used Homer and found it to be pretty far off from off grid reality. Any off grid application is going to benefit from inverters and batteries to keep the generator from having to run 24/7. Next, adding at least some PV to trickle charge the batteries is often a no brainer. . You definitely don't need as much battery in a hybrid system. Its not just a fuel issue, generator replacement and maintenance, along with more esoteric considerations like noise, and smell, need to be factored in as well. Figuring the ratio of generator run time vs. PV is a bit trickier, but I found you can sneak up on that calculation by starting with the generator, batteries, inverters, and smallish PV, then add more PV incrementally while monitoring gen run time. Real performance numbers always beat computer simulations, especially off grid, where it is often tough to characterize the real life complexity of the loads. There is a point if your baseline 24/7 loads are large enough, a full time generator makes sense, but unless its in Alaska, some PV almost always makes sense as well. Also the loads will determine how much design time to put in before hand. If your looking at a 50kw generator or up, you need to invest in some software and/ or get an off grid design specialist on board. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] backup without batteries
Forgive my senility. I recently read somewhere about development of grid-tie inverters without batteries that offer emergency power via a single 120V receptacle during grid outage (and sun.) Anyone seen anything on these? The brands mentioned were SMA Mitsubishi. Thanks in advance. -- Nicholas Ponzio Building Energy 1570 South Brownell Road Williston, VT 05495 802-859-3384 ext.15 (office) 802-658-3982 (fax) 802-318-4783 (cell) http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] backup without batteries
Hiya Nick, SMA is bringing out an inverter that will do that. Not yet available, I think, but hopefully soon. I heard about it at the NABCEP CE conference this month in Sacramento, CA. I don't think it is specific to using the Mitsu PVs at all. Bob-O On Mar 25, 2013, at 8:56 AM, Nik Ponzio wrote: Forgive my senility. I recently read somewhere about development of grid-tie inverters without batteries that offer emergency power via a single 120V receptacle during grid outage (and sun.) Anyone seen anything on these? The brands mentioned were SMA Mitsubishi. Thanks in advance. -- Nicholas Ponzio Building Energy 1570 South Brownell Road Williston, VT 05495 802-859-3384 ext.15 (office) 802-658-3982 (fax) 802-318-4783 (cell) http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] backup without batteries
http://www.smainverted.com/2013/02/21/groundbreaking-new-feature-on-sunny-boy-tl-us-emergency-power-when-the-grid-fails/ On 2013/3/25 11:56, Nik Ponzio wrote: Forgive my senility. I recently read somewhere about development of grid-tie inverters without batteries that offer emergency power via a single 120V receptacle during grid outage (and sun.) Anyone seen anything on these? The brands mentioned were SMA Mitsubishi. Thanks in advance. -- Nicholas Ponzio Building Energy 1570 South Brownell Road Williston, VT 05495 802-859-3384 ext.15 (office) 802-658-3982 (fax) 802-318-4783 (cell) http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] backup without batteries
SMA is hosting a webinar on this product line on April 2nd: http://www.sma-america.com/en_US/smasolaracademy/seminar-calendar/seminar-registration/seminars/sunny_boy_tl_us_series_eps_overview_live_webinar.html On Mar 25, 2013, at 11:11 AM, Bob-O Schultze wrote: Hiya Nick, SMA is bringing out an inverter that will do that. Not yet available, I think, but hopefully soon. I heard about it at the NABCEP CE conference this month in Sacramento, CA. I don't think it is specific to using the Mitsu PVs at all. Bob-O On Mar 25, 2013, at 8:56 AM, Nik Ponzio wrote: Forgive my senility. I recently read somewhere about development of grid-tie inverters without batteries that offer emergency power via a single 120V receptacle during grid outage (and sun.) Anyone seen anything on these? The brands mentioned were SMA Mitsubishi. Thanks in advance. -- Nicholas Ponzio Building Energy 1570 South Brownell Road Williston, VT 05495 802-859-3384 ext.15 (office) 802-658-3982 (fax) 802-318-4783 (cell) http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] GSCM-mini with Honda EM5000SX
Larry, Thanks for your reply. For some reason the schematic I received from the tech at Atkinson did not show any wires being connected to pins 9 10 and as I'm a literalist I did not make those connections. After I received your (and other) feedback I connected gen power to those pins and the AGS seemed to function fine. Within 2 days the customer called me back saying his genny was shutting off after 20 mins of runtime. I told him to disconnect or reprogram one system component at a time to find the fault source. Before a fault source was determined, he observed that two batteries in his bank were experiencing the battery terminals melting into the battery casing (as was texted to me by the customer). I have no idea how a GSCM interface would cause or allow an overcurrent fault at the batteries but the timing of the installation seems to indicate that the AGS is at fault. Ever heard of this before? Eric Stikes SunHarvest Solar - Original Message - From: Larry Crutcher,Starlight Solar Power Systems To: RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 11:48 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GSCM-mini with Honda EM5000SX You need the line and neutral from the generator connected to pin 9 10 or the GSCM does not know if the generator is running or not. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Mar 1, 2013, at 10:30 AM, SunHarvest wrote: I've installed a GSCM-mini (interfaced with a Honda EM500SX w/manual remote start box) according to the attached schematic provided by Mr. Kendall of Atkinson. The unit is not functioning properly. It seems that the GSCM-mini is not recognizing that the generator is running. Here are the results of my troubleshooting: Start LED (yellow) on GSCM-mini blinks once every 5 seconds to indicate it is ready. When starting the generator using the MATE3 from either the manual Generator Status Menu, or using the auto 2 minute Voltage Start - Generator starts OK, MATE enters RUN mode, no faults listed on MATE, AC IN shows USE AGS, i.e., everything looks OK. But when I press the OFF button on the Gen Status screen the STATUS goes to OFF but the generator will not shut off...until... At the time of manual start the GSCM begins going through the cycle of trying to start the genny then goes into a Lockout Fault Condition: Start LED goes to solid yellow, K1 light comes on, generator starts, K1 light goes off for 40 seconds, yellow Start light is solid, K1 comes back on for 20 seconds, cycle repeats 3 times, K2 light comes on for 5 seconds, Gen Hz LED Fault blinks twice repeatedly, Fault LED (terminal 12) comes on solid, GSCM enters (Max Crank) Lockout Fault, ...then the generator shuts off. Seems the GSCM is not registering a Valid Run Condition. So, either the schematic for the 4000SX is not applicable for the 5000SX or the red wire I connected to terminal 8 (as shown in the schematic, needs to actually go to terminals 910, or I need to run a wire from the Pilot LED on the manual remote start box to terminal 8 on the GSCM... Any experience with this scenario? Thanksalot, Eric Stikes SunHarvest Solar - Original Message - From: Chris Mason To: RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 6:26 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar-direct pool pumping We install solar pool pumps quite frequently here in the Caribbean. We use Sunpumps - excellent company, great support. Email Joe Lines j...@sunpumps.com for design assistance, he is very helpful. On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 1:02 PM, William Korthof wkort...@gmail.com wrote: A few questions. I have a customer who really wants a solar-direct pool pump for his home. Medium size in-ground pool and I'd like the pump to be strong enough to lift to the solar pool panels (12 ft lift above pool level). I'd like to offer him hardware that is at least one notch above experimental beta-test. I remember the SunCentric from several years ago, but not sure how durable that turned out, and I was having trouble a vendor for it now. Any suggestions for today with some favorable track record? Or suggestions on what to avoid? William Korthof Sustainable Solutions Partners ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason President, Comet Systems Ltd www.cometenergysystems.com Cell: 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts
Re: [RE-wrenches] GSCM-mini with Honda EM5000SX
when i have seen this (battery post melting) in the past it was from a faulty (high resistance) battery connection... usually a poorly crimped lug. todd On Monday, March 25, 2013 9:15am, SunHarvest e...@harvesthesun.com said: Larry, Thanks for your reply. For some reason the schematic I received from the tech at Atkinson did not show any wires being connected to pins 9 10 and as I'm a literalist I did not make those connections. After I received your (and other) feedback I connected gen power to those pins and the AGS seemed to function fine. Within 2 days the customer called me back saying his genny was shutting off after 20 mins of runtime. I told him to disconnect or reprogram one system component at a time to find the fault source. Before a fault source was determined, he observed that two batteries in his bank were experiencing the battery terminals melting into the battery casing (as was texted to me by the customer). I have no idea how a GSCM interface would cause or allow an overcurrent fault at the batteries but the timing of the installation seems to indicate that the AGS is at fault. Ever heard of this before? Eric Stikes SunHarvest Solar - Original Message - From: [mailto:la...@starlightsolar.com] LarryCrutcher,Starlight Solar Power Systems To: [mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org] RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 11:48AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GSCM-mini withHonda EM5000SXYou need the line and neutral from the generator connected topin 9 10 or the GSCM does not know if the generator is running ornot. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Mar 1, 2013, at 10:30 AM, SunHarvest wrote: I'veinstalled a GSCM-mini (interfaced with a Honda EM500SX w/manual remote start box) according to the attached schematic provided by Mr. Kendall of Atkinson. The unit is not functioning properly. It seems that the GSCM-mini is not recognizing that the generator is running. Here are the results ofmy troubleshooting: Start LED (yellow) on GSCM-mini blinks once every 5seconds to indicate it is ready. When starting the generator using theMATE3 from either the manual Generator Status Menu, or using the auto 2minute Voltage Start - Generator starts OK, MATE entersRUN mode, no faults listed on MATE, AC IN shows USE AGS, i.e., everythinglooks OK. But when I press the OFF button on the Gen Status screen the STATUSgoes to OFF but the generator will not shut off...until... At the timeof manual start the GSCM begins going through the cycle of trying to start thegenny then goes into a Lockout Fault Condition: Start LED goes to solidyellow, K1 light comes on, generator starts, K1 light goes off for 40 seconds,yellow Start light is solid, K1 comes back on for 20 seconds, cycle repeats 3times, K2 light comes on for 5 seconds, Gen Hz LED Fault blinks twicerepeatedly, Fault LED (terminal 12) comes on solid, GSCM enters (Max Crank)Lockout Fault, ...then the generator shuts off. Seems the GSCM is notregistering a Valid Run Condition. So, either the schematic for the 4000SX isnot applicable for the 5000SX or the red wire I connected to terminal 8 (asshown in the schematic, needs to actually go to terminals 910, or I needto run a wire from the Pilot LED on the manual remote start box to terminal 8on the GSCM... Anyexperience with this scenario? Thanksalot, Eric Stikes SunHarvest Solar - Original Message - From: [mailto:cometenergysyst...@gmail.com] Chris Mason To: [mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org] RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 6:26 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar-direct pool pumping We install solar pool pumps quite frequently here in the Caribbean. We use Sunpumps - excellent company, great support. Email Joe Lines joe@[mailto:j...@sunpumps.com] sunpumps.com for design assistance, he is very helpful. On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 1:02 PM, William Korthof [mailto:wkort...@gmail.com] wkort...@gmail.com wrote: A few questions. I have a customer whoreally wants a solar-direct pool pump for his home. Medium size in-groundpool and I'd like the pump to be strong enough to lift to the solar poolpanels (12 ft lift above pool level). I'd like to offer him hardware thatis at least one notch above experimental beta-test. I remember theSunCentric from several years ago, but not sure how durable that turnedout, and I was having trouble a vendor for it now. Any suggestions fortoday with some favorable track record? Or suggestions on what toavoid? William Korthof SustainableSolutionsPartners ___ Listsponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: [mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org]
Re: [RE-wrenches] GSCM-mini with Honda EM5000SX
Hi Eric, The only time I've seen battery terminals melt down was when they (the bolts and cables) were loose, either from corrosion or not tightened in the first place, and a fair amount of current was then drawn on the battery bank or put into the battery bank as a charge cycle will do. Sincerely, Chris Worcester Solar Wind Works NABCEP Certified PV Installer Phone: 530-582-4503 C: 530-448-9692 Fax: 530-582-4603 www.solarwindworks.com http://www.solarwindworks.com/ ch...@solarwindworks.com Proven Energy Solutions From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of SunHarvest Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 9:15 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GSCM-mini with Honda EM5000SX Larry, Thanks for your reply. For some reason the schematic I received from the tech at Atkinson did not show any wires being connected to pins 9 10 and as I'm a literalist I did not make those connections. After I received your (and other) feedback I connected gen power to those pins and the AGS seemed to function fine. Within 2 days the customer called me back saying his genny was shutting off after 20 mins of runtime. I told him to disconnect or reprogram one system component at a time to find the fault source. Before a fault source was determined, he observed that two batteries in his bank were experiencing the battery terminals melting into the battery casing (as was texted to me by the customer). I have no idea how a GSCM interface would cause or allow an overcurrent fault at the batteries but the timing of the installation seems to indicate that the AGS is at fault. Ever heard of this before? Eric Stikes SunHarvest Solar - Original Message - From: Larry Crutcher,Starlight Solar Power Systems mailto:la...@starlightsolar.com To: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Friday, March 01, 2013 11:48 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GSCM-mini with Honda EM5000SX You need the line and neutral from the generator connected to pin 9 10 or the GSCM does not know if the generator is running or not. Larry Crutcher Starlight Solar Power Systems On Mar 1, 2013, at 10:30 AM, SunHarvest wrote: I've installed a GSCM-mini (interfaced with a Honda EM500SX w/manual remote start box) according to the attached schematic provided by Mr. Kendall of Atkinson. The unit is not functioning properly. It seems that the GSCM-mini is not recognizing that the generator is running. Here are the results of my troubleshooting: Start LED (yellow) on GSCM-mini blinks once every 5 seconds to indicate it is ready. When starting the generator using the MATE3 from either the manual Generator Status Menu, or using the auto 2 minute Voltage Start - Generator starts OK, MATE enters RUN mode, no faults listed on MATE, AC IN shows USE AGS, i.e., everything looks OK. But when I press the OFF button on the Gen Status screen the STATUS goes to OFF but the generator will not shut off...until... At the time of manual start the GSCM begins going through the cycle of trying to start the genny then goes into a Lockout Fault Condition: Start LED goes to solid yellow, K1 light comes on, generator starts, K1 light goes off for 40 seconds, yellow Start light is solid, K1 comes back on for 20 seconds, cycle repeats 3 times, K2 light comes on for 5 seconds, Gen Hz LED Fault blinks twice repeatedly, Fault LED (terminal 12) comes on solid, GSCM enters (Max Crank) Lockout Fault, ...then the generator shuts off. Seems the GSCM is not registering a Valid Run Condition. So, either the schematic for the 4000SX is not applicable for the 5000SX or the red wire I connected to terminal 8 (as shown in the schematic, needs to actually go to terminals 910, or I need to run a wire from the Pilot LED on the manual remote start box to terminal 8 on the GSCM... Any experience with this scenario? Thanksalot, Eric Stikes SunHarvest Solar - Original Message - From: Chris Mason mailto:cometenergysyst...@gmail.com To: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Wednesday, February 20, 2013 6:26 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar-direct pool pumping We install solar pool pumps quite frequently here in the Caribbean. We use Sunpumps - excellent company, great support. Email Joe Lines j...@sunpumps.com mailto:j...@sunpumps.com for design assistance, he is very helpful. On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 1:02 PM, William Korthof wkort...@gmail.com wrote: A few questions. I have a customer who really wants a solar-direct pool pump for his home. Medium size in-ground pool and I'd like the pump to be strong enough to lift to the solar pool panels (12 ft lift above pool level). I'd like to offer him hardware that is at least one notch above experimental beta-test. I remember the SunCentric from several years ago, but not sure how durable that turned out, and I was having trouble a vendor for it now. Any suggestions
Re: [RE-wrenches] P1 micro performance
Hi Carl, Marco, and Wrenches, As a longtime installer, I understand your point of view. Historically, I designed my string and microinverter systems with the same consideration for maintaining conservative DC to AC ratios. That being said, the costs of modules have decreased significantly and the dynamics have changed. Solar companies should be focused on selling systems that offers a great rate of return. Maximizing the customer's investment is most important. Isn't that what your customer wants? What Enphase is encouraging is the development of cost effective PV systems that will generate a healthy return. Considering that the modules are only 20% of the total system costs today, it is smart to give up 0.2% or more of the module production to lower the overall system costs by 5-10%. The NEC requires that the AC panel boards, conductors, and circuit breakers are sized to the inverter continuous output current rating. We should be maximizing this infrastructure. The data available indicates that when a system is installed with a 1.2 to 1.25 DC to AC ratio, it will rarely operate at peak output. Installing a PV system with a 1.25 DC to AC ratio is not driving the equipment to the maximum. In the case of the Enphase M215s; they are designed to operate continuously at peak output, so reaching that level a few hours in the first years is not problematic. To be clear, this limiting will occur the most during the spring months, because you have a combination of both cool weather and high irradiance levels. As Dan mentioned, this applies to string inverters as well as microinverters. One of the most common system designs of the early US grid-tied market was installing 18- 165 watt modules on an SWR-2500. I designed hundreds of projects like that. That was a ~1.2 multiplier, and was at a time when the modules cost $5 per watt; not $1 per watt. Why be more conservative now? On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 6:19 PM, Carl Emerson c...@solarking.net.nz wrote: Friends, ** ** I am a little puzzled by this topic. ** ** What has happened to the good engineering practice of sizing electronic equipment so that it is not driven to the maximum. ** ** My understanding is that the MTBF increases significantly the harder you drive the unit. ** ** This seems to be a case of overdriving the units for short term gain. *** * ** ** *Carl Emerson* *Free Power Co. * *Auckland N.Z.*** ** ** *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Exeltech *Sent:* 24 March 2013 5:50 a.m. *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] P1 micro performance ** ** Marco .. and Wrenches .. I'm going to take a run at this -- just once. First ... Without proper and *accurate* data acquisition equipment, there's no way to know what the actual available PV wattage is compared to the inverter's output wattage when its output is being *LIMITED*. This limiting action occurs in an inverter when there's more available power at the input than the inverter can produce at its output. Subsequently, you don't know how much potential energy wasn't harvested. Now then ... Let's say the inverter is producing 216 watts, and the PV *could* produce 227.3 watts at max power point under those specific conditions if every PV-generated milliwatt were used. Next, and presuming the inverter is 95% efficient, that's a limited loss of ONE WATT. 227.3 x 95% = 215.94 watts (OK, so I fudged 0.06 watt). Under what conditions (and since you're in Hawaii, I'll use 70F) would this occur, and with what size PV? I went to my magic spreadsheet and grabbed the first 270-watt-rated PV I could find. NESL DJ-270P,. YOU think it's producing 270 watts. It's not. At 77F (25C), and under the conditions of 100% irradiance, perfectly orthogonal to the sun at mid-day, light wind, that particular PV will produce 227 watts +/- its tolerance. (Let's say the tolerance is dead on.) Now, consider the benefit of increased energy output due to more rapid output wattage rise experienced during early morning, and the higher output later in the afternoon, AS WELL AS the increased power output realized during periods of less than 100% irradiance one derives from using larger PV compared to PV you might consider perfectly matched to the inverter. ALL of this adds up to more kilowatt-hours produced annually than had the inverter been connected to your perfect PV that doesn't produce enough wattage to have the inverter begin limiting its output. The shoulders of the output wattage curve are steeper than with lower-wattage PV. Granted you *could* connect the inverter to [say] a 450 watt PV module, and that would truly be a waste of the PV wattage. There *is* a broad sweet spot for AC Module inverters and microinverters alike, and it's actually on the higher side of the PV's rated output wattage versus the
[RE-wrenches] Soladeck Alternatives
We typically bring the electrical up through the roof under the array for best aesthetics. We have been using SLBs and plumbing style flashing for years with good results. However, in recent times the panel frames have been leaning towards thinner frames. The result is that the plumbing flashing is being turned inside out because it has less room, so we have been potting it with sealant - which is not ideal. I've been looking at the soladeck, but they are too large and expensive for a junction box (not combiner) use. Any other smaller, less expensive alternatives others have come across? thanks, Troy Harvey - Principal Engineer Heliocentric 801-453-9434 tahar...@heliocentric.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Soladeck Alternatives
I believe that Zilla and Quick Mount makes flashed options for conduit entry through the roof. You will still have to use a SLB but they are much lower profile than the Oaty flashings used in the past and should fit under thin framed modules. Aaron Mandelkorn NABCEP Certified PV Installer Renewable Energy Outfitters Box 65 Salida, CO. 81201 (970)596-3744 reoso...@gmail.com www.reosolar.com On Mar 25, 2013, at 1:28 PM, Troy Harvey wrote: We typically bring the electrical up through the roof under the array for best aesthetics. We have been using SLBs and plumbing style flashing for years with good results. However, in recent times the panel frames have been leaning towards thinner frames. The result is that the plumbing flashing is being turned inside out because it has less room, so we have been potting it with sealant - which is not ideal. I've been looking at the soladeck, but they are too large and expensive for a junction box (not combiner) use. Any other smaller, less expensive alternatives others have come across? thanks, Troy Harvey - Principal Engineer Heliocentric 801-453-9434 tahar...@heliocentric.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] GSCM-mini with Honda EM5000SX
Eric: The generator-based charging may impose higher currents into the batteries than either PV charging or inverter consumption, triggering the problem. Melted battery terminals are not uncommon. You must have washers under your bolt heads with lead flanges. Otherwise the bolt heads sink into the lead, loosening connections. All mating surfaces need to be newly wired brushed just before assembly. Battery connections need to be re-torqued annually. William Miller At 09:40 AM 3/25/2013, you wrote: Larry, Thanks for your reply. For some reason the schematic I received from the tech at Atkinson did not show any wires being connected to pins 9 10 and as I'm a literalist I did not make those connections. After I received your (and other) feedback I connected gen power to those pins and the AGS seemed to function fine. Within 2 days the customer called me back saying his genny was shutting off after 20 mins of runtime. I told him to disconnect or reprogram one system component at a time to find the fault source. Before a fault source was determined, he observed that two batteries in his bank were experiencing the battery terminals melting into the battery casing (as was texted to me by the customer). I have no idea how a GSCM interface would cause or allow an overcurrent fault at the batteries but the timing of the installation seems to indicate that the AGS is at fault. Ever heard of this before? Eric Stikes SunHarvest Solar We install solar pool pumps quite frequently here in the Caribbean. We use Sunpumps - excellent company, great support. Email Joe Lines joe@mailto:j...@sunpumps.comsunpumps.com for design assistance, he is very helpful. On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 1:02 PM, William Korthof mailto:wkort...@gmail.comwkort...@gmail.com wrote: A few questions. I have a customer who really wants a solar-direct pool pump for his home. Medium size in-ground pool and I'd like the pump to be strong enough to lift to the solar pool panels (12 ft lift above pool level). I'd like to offer him hardware that is at least one notch above experimental beta-test. I remember the SunCentric from several years ago, but not sure how durable that turned out, and I was having trouble a vendor for it now. Any suggestions for today with some favorable track record? Or suggestions on what to avoid? William Korthof Sustainable Solutions Partners ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgRE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orghttp://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orghttp://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmwww.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.orgwww.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason President, Comet Systems Ltd http://www.cometenergysystems.comwww.cometenergysystems.com Cell: 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgRE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orghttp://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orghttp://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmwww.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.orgwww.members.re-wrenches.org EM4000SX_MINI-01.PDF___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgRE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orghttp://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orghttp://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmwww.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.orgwww.members.re-wrenches.org -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette:
Re: [RE-wrenches] Clipping
Yes, Southwest Florida. You're right about the availability of modules. People look at me like I have three heads when I tell them a 185W and a 250W module are about the same price, but that's the world we're living in. We always need to consider price efficiency in addition the the electrical and mechanical specifications of the equipment we sell and install. *Jason Szumlanski** * *Fafco Solar* * * On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 6:16 PM, Jesse Dahl dahlso...@gmail.com wrote: Interesting. Jason you're in FLA right? I'd like to hear from a northern installer who's put in a similar group of enphase. That's exactly the type of info I'm looking for. Like you mention, this might all be a waste if time when you consider module price. I'm having a hard time getting modules under 250W now anyway... Jesse Sent from my iPhone On Mar 22, 2013, at 4:40 PM, Jason Szumlanski ja...@fafcosolar.com wrote: We now have 230W, 235W, 240W, 245W, and 250W modules on Enphase M215's in the field. Initial anecdotal evidence shows that the 250W modules are doing better in our area, even when the cost comparison is taken into account (normalized for $/watt). I don't have a full year of data yet, but I plan to do a non-scientific analysis once I do. Of course, the sweet spot in any given year will be different. As with many things, the PV cost as a percentage of total installed price is making this quandry less important. Go BIG is becoming the safe bet when it's a minimal cost comparison. *Jason Szumlanski** * *Fafco Solar* On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 5:23 PM, Jesse Dahl dahlso...@gmail.com wrote: Understood. I guess the point/question was, a 250W module with a 215W micro would flat top a heck of a lot of power where I live during the 6 months of winter we have. I've sized my system to account for increased production during this time. I guess it comes down to sizing. I find it hard to do the 250W to 215W systems seeing what my system does on a regular basis. I'd like to see hard numbers from an enphase system showing the gains on the knee of the curve compared to flat topping. Jesse Sent from my iPhone On Mar 22, 2013, at 1:11 AM, Nick Soleil nsol...@enphaseenergy.com wrote: Hi Jesse and Wrenches, One thing that should be understood about the production readings from a DC optimizer system is that the module level readings are in DC. That is the production before being converted to AC, and does not account for the losses of the inverter. It isn't really an apples to apples comparison to equate that production reading to the 225watt max output of the Enphase M215. On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 8:24 PM, Jesse Dahl dahlso...@gmail.com wrote: Hello, Marco's email about Power-1's micros reminded me to send this screen shot. This is from my system at home. It consists of 9 210W Kyocera modules, Tigo optimizers and a 2kW PV Powered inverter. It was very cold and clear on this day, but every sunny day this winter I've seen numbers similar to this at some point each day. I was trying to keep track of the amount of power over the STC rating of the modules, but its getting to be a huge project. I have hours each day that produce over the 210W. Here is the link to my system. It shows each modules temp, Vdc, Adc and power. I don't have the irradiance meter because of cost. http://www.tigoenergy.com/site.php?181428c8-1402 Jesse -- Cordially, *Nick Soleil* *Field Applications Engineer * *Enphase Energy* Mobile: (707) 321-2937 ** *Enphase Commercial Solar.* *Limitless.*http://www.enphase.com/commercial?utm_source=emailutm_medium=sigutm_campaign=Comm2012 * *http://www.enphase.com/commercial?utm_source=emailutm_medium=sigutm_campaign=Comm2012 1420 North McDowell Petaluma, CA 94954 www.enphase.com http://www.enphaseenergy.com/ P: (707) 763-4784 x7267 F: (707) 763-0784 E: nsol...@enphaseenergy.com image002.jpg Certified Solar PV Installer #03262011-300 “Don’t get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It’s just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there’s an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it’s wireless! .” - William McDonough www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] GSCM-mini with Honda EM5000SX
I concur with William's recommendations and would add a couple of things. Only use stainless steel hardware for all battery connections. Wire brush connection surfaces prior to mating. Use corrosion inhibiting grease on all fittings after making them (to seal out air). Lastly, It is a good idea to use stainless Belleville washers (cupped spring washers) in current carrying connections. Bolt head, washer, Battery terminal, washer, Belleville washer, locknut. The spring washer maintains clamping force as the connection expands and contracts (thermally). They are very common place in high current bus bar connections but I rarely see them used on batteries. Best Regards, John Berdner General Manager, North America SolarEdge Technologies, Inc. 3347 Gateway Boulevard, Fremont CA 94538 USA (*Please note of our new address.) T: 510.498.3200, X 747 M: 530.277.4894 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 12:41 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] GSCM-mini with Honda EM5000SX Eric: The generator-based charging may impose higher currents into the batteries than either PV charging or inverter consumption, triggering the problem. Melted battery terminals are not uncommon. You must have washers under your bolt heads with lead flanges. Otherwise the bolt heads sink into the lead, loosening connections. All mating surfaces need to be newly wired brushed just before assembly. Battery connections need to be re-torqued annually. William Miller At 09:40 AM 3/25/2013, you wrote: Larry, Thanks for your reply. For some reason the schematic I received from the tech at Atkinson did not show any wires being connected to pins 9 10 and as I'm a literalist I did not make those connections. After I received your (and other) feedback I connected gen power to those pins and the AGS seemed to function fine. Within 2 days the customer called me back saying his genny was shutting off after 20 mins of runtime. I told him to disconnect or reprogram one system component at a time to find the fault source. Before a fault source was determined, he observed that two batteries in his bank were experiencing the battery terminals melting into the battery casing (as was texted to me by the customer). I have no idea how a GSCM interface would cause or allow an overcurrent fault at the batteries but the timing of the installation seems to indicate that the AGS is at fault. Ever heard of this before? Eric Stikes SunHarvest Solar We install solar pool pumps quite frequently here in the Caribbean. We use Sunpumps - excellent company, great support. Email Joe Lines j...@sunpumps.commailto:j...@sunpumps.com for design assistance, he is very helpful. On Wed, Feb 20, 2013 at 1:02 PM, William Korthof wkort...@gmail.commailto:wkort...@gmail.com wrote: A few questions. I have a customer who really wants a solar-direct pool pump for his home. Medium size in-ground pool and I'd like the pump to be strong enough to lift to the solar pool panels (12 ft lift above pool level). I'd like to offer him hardware that is at least one notch above experimental beta-test. I remember the SunCentric from several years ago, but not sure how durable that turned out, and I was having trouble a vendor for it now. Any suggestions for today with some favorable track record? Or suggestions on what to avoid? William Korthof Sustainable Solutions Partners ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmhttp://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.orghttp://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason President, Comet Systems Ltd www.cometenergysystems.comhttp://www.cometenergysystems.com Cell: 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmhttp://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.orghttp://www.members.re-wrenches.org EM4000SX_MINI-01.PDF___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address
Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable tray
I think you will find it difficult to adhere to Article 392 and use a cable tray on a rooftop with source circuit conductors, if that is your hope. -Glenn From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 3:08 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable tray I'm looking for flat roof cable tray system that is cost effective. We previously used Cablofil and Cablo-port FSL 12 tray but it is very expensive for our current application due to the size of the roof. We need to install about 200' of tray and Cablofil galvanized is eating up the budget. Can anyone recommend a cheaper alternative. -- Chris Mason ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable tray
What part of 392 would be a problem? On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 6:12 PM, Glenn Burt glenn.b...@glbcc.com wrote: I think you will find it difficult to adhere to Article 392 and use a cable tray on a rooftop with source circuit conductors, if that is your hope. ** ** -Glenn ** ** *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Chris Mason *Sent:* Friday, March 22, 2013 3:08 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Cable tray ** ** I'm looking for flat roof cable tray system that is cost effective. We previously used Cablofil and Cablo-port FSL 12 tray but it is very expensive for our current application due to the size of the roof. We need to install about 200' of tray and Cablofil galvanized is eating up the budget. Can anyone recommend a cheaper alternative. ** ** -- Chris Mason ** ** ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason President, Comet Systems Ltd www.cometenergysystems.com Cell: 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable tray
392.3(B)1 This was also pointed out in a recent article in Solar Pro talking about Wire Management issues. From: Chris Mason [mailto:cometenergysyst...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 6:17 PM To: glenn.b...@glbcc.com; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable tray What part of 392 would be a problem? On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 6:12 PM, Glenn Burt glenn.b...@glbcc.com wrote: I think you will find it difficult to adhere to Article 392 and use a cable tray on a rooftop with source circuit conductors, if that is your hope. -Glenn From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 3:08 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable tray I'm looking for flat roof cable tray system that is cost effective. We previously used Cablofil and Cablo-port FSL 12 tray but it is very expensive for our current application due to the size of the roof. We need to install about 200' of tray and Cablofil galvanized is eating up the budget. Can anyone recommend a cheaper alternative. -- Chris Mason ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason President, Comet Systems Ltd www.cometenergysystems.com Cell: 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable tray
Uses permitted. 392.10(B)(1) requires that single conductor cable in cable tray be size 1/0 or larger. Here's the deal, though. NEC 2014 will add Service Entrance Cable: Types SE and USE to Table 392.10(A). It is not in that table now, which is why inspectors turn to 392.10(B). That means that under 390.10(A) in NEC 2014, Type USE conductor can be used in cable tray according to the methods outlined in Article 338. And references in 690.31 make it clear—if it isn't already— that PV Wire and USE-2 can generally be used interchangeably in PV systems, and that cable tray is accepted for source circuit conductors. So if you ever get called on 392.10(B)(2), I think you can point out that the Code Making Panels have been busy clarifying that cable tray is okay for source circuit conductors. Unless I'm missing something In Mar 25, 2013, at 5:17 PM, Chris Mason wrote: What part of 392 would be a problem? On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 6:12 PM, Glenn Burt glenn.b...@glbcc.com wrote: I think you will find it difficult to adhere to Article 392 and use a cable tray on a rooftop with source circuit conductors, if that is your hope. -Glenn From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason Sent: Friday, March 22, 2013 3:08 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable tray I'm looking for flat roof cable tray system that is cost effective. We previously used Cablofil and Cablo-port FSL 12 tray but it is very expensive for our current application due to the size of the roof. We need to install about 200' of tray and Cablofil galvanized is eating up the budget. Can anyone recommend a cheaper alternative. -- Chris Mason ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason President, Comet Systems Ltd www.cometenergysystems.com Cell: 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable tray
David: This is great news. Now, whenever I want to do something that is prohibited by code, I can just say that the Code Making Panel is gonna correct that pesky code section (insert your problem citation here) any day now, so I might as well be allowed to do whatever it was I was fixin' to do anyway. Unless I am missing something... Thanks! William Miller PS: Just kidding. Hope no offense is taken. wm At 03:46 PM 3/25/2013, you wrote: So if you ever get called on 392.10(B)(2), I think you can point out that the Code Making Panels have been busy clarifying that cable tray is okay for source circuit conductors. Unless I'm missing something ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable tray
Again, don't have any inspectors, so it is down to me to decide if the use is reasonable and safe. On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 6:46 PM, David Brearley david.brear...@solarprofessional.com wrote: Uses permitted. 392.10(B)(1) requires that single conductor cable in cable tray be size 1/0 or larger. Here's the deal, though. NEC 2014 will add Service Entrance Cable: Types SE and USE to Table 392.10(A). It is not in that table now, which is why inspectors turn to 392.10(B). That means that under 390.10(A) in NEC 2014, Type USE conductor can be used in cable tray according to the methods outlined in Article 338. And references in 690.31 make it clear—if it isn't already— that PV Wire and USE-2 can generally be used interchangeably in PV systems, and that cable tray is accepted for source circuit conductors. So if you ever get called on 392.10(B)(2), I think you can point out that the Code Making Panels have been busy clarifying that cable tray is okay for source circuit conductors. Unless I'm missing something In Mar 25, 2013, at 5:17 PM, Chris Mason wrote: What part of 392 would be a problem? On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 6:12 PM, Glenn Burt glenn.b...@glbcc.com wrote: I think you will find it difficult to adhere to Article 392 and use a cable tray on a rooftop with source circuit conductors, if that is your hope. ** ** -Glenn ** ** *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Chris Mason *Sent:* Friday, March 22, 2013 3:08 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Cable tray ** ** I'm looking for flat roof cable tray system that is cost effective. We previously used Cablofil and Cablo-port FSL 12 tray but it is very expensive for our current application due to the size of the roof. We need to install about 200' of tray and Cablofil galvanized is eating up the budget. Can anyone recommend a cheaper alternative. ** ** -- Chris Mason ** ** ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason President, Comet Systems Ltd www.cometenergysystems.com Cell: 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason President, Comet Systems Ltd www.cometenergysystems.com Cell: 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable tray
Ouch. I promise I'm not advocating for anything like that. What I may be missing is the Code reference that says no cable tray on roofs or similar. There is so much room for improvement in wire management practices, that being able to use cable tray seems like a step forward. I understand some jurisdictions do not allow it, but it appears as though Code changes were made specifically to address this. It's boring stuff, but you can read the explanation of the Code changes in the ROP and ROC documents. The Code changes a lot with regards to PV system, and Article 690 is more fluid than other articles. Some of this is the Code trying to keep up with technology. In other cases the Code evolves based on new applications for existing products. Often it changes because some areas of the Code are confusing for electricians and inspectors alike. If the new Code language is more clear in its intent than previous versions, some inspectors are willing to let installers build to the most current standard. That's all I'm advocating for: Trying to understand how the minimum requirements outlined in Code evolve over time so that you can have a friendly and informed conversation with your AHJ over a donut. On Mar 25, 2013, at 6:26 PM, William Miller wrote: David: This is great news. Now, whenever I want to do something that is prohibited by code, I can just say that the Code Making Panel is gonna correct that pesky code section (insert your problem citation here) any day now, so I might as well be allowed to do whatever it was I was fixin' to do anyway. Unless I am missing something... Thanks! William Miller PS: Just kidding. Hope no offense is taken. wm At 03:46 PM 3/25/2013, you wrote: So if you ever get called on 392.10(B)(2), I think you can point out that the Code Making Panels have been busy clarifying that cable tray is okay for source circuit conductors. Unless I'm missing something ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable tray
All, Here is the language that has been accepted into the 2014 NEC: 690.31(C)(2) (2) Cable Trays. PV source circuits and PV output circuits using single-conductor cable listed and labeled as Photovoltaic (PV) wire of all sizes with or without a Cable Tray marking/rating shall be permitted in cable trays installed in outdoor locations provided the cables are supported at intervals not to exceed 30cm (12 in.) and secured at intervals not to exceed 1.4m (4.5'). I hope this helps. It is a very big deal. Bill. From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of David Brearley Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 6:01 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable tray Ouch. I promise I'm not advocating for anything like that. What I may be missing is the Code reference that says no cable tray on roofs or similar. There is so much room for improvement in wire management practices, that being able to use cable tray seems like a step forward. I understand some jurisdictions do not allow it, but it appears as though Code changes were made specifically to address this. It's boring stuff, but you can read the explanation of the Code changes in the ROP and ROC documents. The Code changes a lot with regards to PV system, and Article 690 is more fluid than other articles. Some of this is the Code trying to keep up with technology. In other cases the Code evolves based on new applications for existing products. Often it changes because some areas of the Code are confusing for electricians and inspectors alike. If the new Code language is more clear in its intent than previous versions, some inspectors are willing to let installers build to the most current standard. That's all I'm advocating for: Trying to understand how the minimum requirements outlined in Code evolve over time so that you can have a friendly and informed conversation with your AHJ over a donut. On Mar 25, 2013, at 6:26 PM, William Miller wrote: David: This is great news. Now, whenever I want to do something that is prohibited by code, I can just say that the Code Making Panel is gonna correct that pesky code section (insert your problem citation here) any day now, so I might as well be allowed to do whatever it was I was fixin' to do anyway. Unless I am missing something... Thanks! William Miller PS: Just kidding. Hope no offense is taken. wm At 03:46 PM 3/25/2013, you wrote: So if you ever get called on 392.10(B)(2), I think you can point out that the Code Making Panels have been busy clarifying that cable tray is okay for source circuit conductors. Unless I'm missing something ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable tray
Thanks Bill. That's another welcome change to look forward to in NEC 2014. On Mar 25, 2013, at 9:53 PM, Bill Brooks wrote: All, Here is the language that has been accepted into the 2014 NEC: 690.31(C)(2) (2) Cable Trays. PV source circuits and PV output circuits using single-conductor cable listed and labeled as Photovoltaic (PV) wire of all sizes with or without a Cable Tray marking/rating shall be permitted in cable trays installed in outdoor locations provided the cables are supported at intervals not to exceed 30cm (12 in.) and secured at intervals not to exceed 1.4m (4.5’). I hope this helps. It is a very big deal. Bill. From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of David Brearley Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 6:01 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable tray Ouch. I promise I'm not advocating for anything like that. What I may be missing is the Code reference that says no cable tray on roofs or similar. There is so much room for improvement in wire management practices, that being able to use cable tray seems like a step forward. I understand some jurisdictions do not allow it, but it appears as though Code changes were made specifically to address this. It's boring stuff, but you can read the explanation of the Code changes in the ROP and ROC documents. The Code changes a lot with regards to PV system, and Article 690 is more fluid than other articles. Some of this is the Code trying to keep up with technology. In other cases the Code evolves based on new applications for existing products. Often it changes because some areas of the Code are confusing for electricians and inspectors alike. If the new Code language is more clear in its intent than previous versions, some inspectors are willing to let installers build to the most current standard. That's all I'm advocating for: Trying to understand how the minimum requirements outlined in Code evolve over time so that you can have a friendly and informed conversation with your AHJ over a donut. On Mar 25, 2013, at 6:26 PM, William Miller wrote: David: This is great news. Now, whenever I want to do something that is prohibited by code, I can just say that the Code Making Panel is gonna correct that pesky code section (insert your problem citation here) any day now, so I might as well be allowed to do whatever it was I was fixin' to do anyway. Unless I am missing something... Thanks! William Miller PS: Just kidding. Hope no offense is taken. wm At 03:46 PM 3/25/2013, you wrote: So if you ever get called on 392.10(B)(2), I think you can point out that the Code Making Panels have been busy clarifying that cable tray is okay for source circuit conductors. Unless I'm missing something ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Soladeck Alternatives
The zilla flashing looks perfect. Thanks! thanks, Troy Harvey - Principal Engineer Heliocentric 801-453-9434 tahar...@heliocentric.org On Mar 25, 2013, at 1:37 PM, Aaron Mandelkorn reoso...@gmail.com wrote: I believe that Zilla and Quick Mount makes flashed options for conduit entry through the roof. You will still have to use a SLB but they are much lower profile than the Oaty flashings used in the past and should fit under thin framed modules. Aaron Mandelkorn NABCEP Certified PV Installer Renewable Energy Outfitters Box 65 Salida, CO. 81201 (970)596-3744 reoso...@gmail.com www.reosolar.com On Mar 25, 2013, at 1:28 PM, Troy Harvey wrote: We typically bring the electrical up through the roof under the array for best aesthetics. We have been using SLBs and plumbing style flashing for years with good results. However, in recent times the panel frames have been leaning towards thinner frames. The result is that the plumbing flashing is being turned inside out because it has less room, so we have been potting it with sealant - which is not ideal. I've been looking at the soladeck, but they are too large and expensive for a junction box (not combiner) use. Any other smaller, less expensive alternatives others have come across? thanks, Troy Harvey - Principal Engineer Heliocentric 801-453-9434 tahar...@heliocentric.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable tray
David: Of course, I understand that you are not saying we can willfully disregard the Code in anticipation of future clarification. I was just extrapolating on your idea. If we want an exception based on a predicted update in the code, we are at the mercy of the AHJ who may or may not be convinced. I think most AHJs are willing to diverge from the Code in a more strict interpretation, but not the reverse. Right now, as I read it, unless the leads are 1/0 or larger, we are forbade. I treat PV systems like rooftop AC units. The voltages and currents are similar, if not more severe. I don't believe you could or should run power to a rooftop AC unit in cable tray. Conduit is a tried and true practice and I recommend it. William Miller At 06:01 PM 3/25/2013, you wrote: Ouch. I promise I'm not advocating for anything like that. What I may be missing is the Code reference that says no cable tray on roofs or similar. There is so much room for improvement in wire management practices, that being able to use cable tray seems like a step forward. I understand some jurisdictions do not allow it, but it appears as though Code changes were made specifically to address this. It's boring stuff, but you can read the explanation of the Code changes in the ROP and ROC documents. The Code changes a lot with regards to PV system, and Article 690 is more fluid than other articles. Some of this is the Code trying to keep up with technology. In other cases the Code evolves based on new applications for existing products. Often it changes because some areas of the Code are confusing for electricians and inspectors alike. If the new Code language is more clear in its intent than previous versions, some inspectors are willing to let installers build to the most current standard. That's all I'm advocating for: Trying to understand how the minimum requirements outlined in Code evolve over time so that you can have a friendly and informed conversation with your AHJ over a donut. On Mar 25, 2013, at 6:26 PM, William Miller wrote: David: This is great news. Now, whenever I want to do something that is prohibited by code, I can just say that the Code Making Panel is gonna correct that pesky code section (insert your problem citation here) any day now, so I might as well be allowed to do whatever it was I was fixin' to do anyway. Unless I am missing something... Thanks! William Miller PS: Just kidding. Hope no offense is taken. wm At 03:46 PM 3/25/2013, you wrote: So if you ever get called on 392.10(B)(2), I think you can point out that the Code Making Panels have been busy clarifying that cable tray is okay for source circuit conductors. Unless I'm missing something ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgRE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orghttp://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Miller Solar Voice :805-438-5600 email: will...@millersolar.com http://millersolar.com License No. C-10-773985 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable tray
William, I would strongly disagree that conduit is tried and true on rooftops. I have rarely seen good conduit runs on rooftops. Most electricians have no clue how to work with expansion joints. Conduit on rooftops is a bad idea in general. Most conduit runs in big buildings are all done indoors for good reason. We are the crazy people doing things on the roof. The sooner we get away from conduit-particularly for long feeder runs-the better. In Europe they don't have problems with their rooftop wiring systems because everything is in tray. For those that don't allow cable tray for anything less than 1/0, just remember that if it isn't called cable tray, then 392 doesn't apply. The NEC would allow us to use treated lumber in place of cable tray. This makes no sense. We did some research on the origin of the 1/0 requirement, and it is ancient and no longer relevant. Just because it is in the code, does not mean it is correct. That's why we try to fix it every three years. Bill. From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Monday, March 25, 2013 9:30 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable tray David: Of course, I understand that you are not saying we can willfully disregard the Code in anticipation of future clarification. I was just extrapolating on your idea. If we want an exception based on a predicted update in the code, we are at the mercy of the AHJ who may or may not be convinced. I think most AHJs are willing to diverge from the Code in a more strict interpretation, but not the reverse. Right now, as I read it, unless the leads are 1/0 or larger, we are forbade. I treat PV systems like rooftop AC units. The voltages and currents are similar, if not more severe. I don't believe you could or should run power to a rooftop AC unit in cable tray. Conduit is a tried and true practice and I recommend it. William Miller At 06:01 PM 3/25/2013, you wrote: Ouch. I promise I'm not advocating for anything like that. What I may be missing is the Code reference that says no cable tray on roofs or similar. There is so much room for improvement in wire management practices, that being able to use cable tray seems like a step forward. I understand some jurisdictions do not allow it, but it appears as though Code changes were made specifically to address this. It's boring stuff, but you can read the explanation of the Code changes in the ROP and ROC documents. The Code changes a lot with regards to PV system, and Article 690 is more fluid than other articles. Some of this is the Code trying to keep up with technology. In other cases the Code evolves based on new applications for existing products. Often it changes because some areas of the Code are confusing for electricians and inspectors alike. If the new Code language is more clear in its intent than previous versions, some inspectors are willing to let installers build to the most current standard. That's all I'm advocating for: Trying to understand how the minimum requirements outlined in Code evolve over time so that you can have a friendly and informed conversation with your AHJ over a donut. On Mar 25, 2013, at 6:26 PM, William Miller wrote: David: This is great news. Now, whenever I want to do something that is prohibited by code, I can just say that the Code Making Panel is gonna correct that pesky code section (insert your problem citation here) any day now, so I might as well be allowed to do whatever it was I was fixin' to do anyway. Unless I am missing something... Thanks! William Miller PS: Just kidding. Hope no offense is taken. wm At 03:46 PM 3/25/2013, you wrote: So if you ever get called on 392.10(B)(2), I think you can point out that the Code Making Panels have been busy clarifying that cable tray is okay for source circuit conductors. Unless I'm missing something ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/ Miller Solar Voice :805-438-5600 email: will...@millersolar.com
