[RE-wrenches] Federal tax credit
All, I have an old customer who wants to do multiple upgrades to their system. Is there any minimum PV array upgrade required for the entire BOS upgrade cost be eligible for the Fed tax credit? I don't think there is. Kirk Herander VT Solar, LLC dba Vermont Solar Engineering NABCEPTM Certified Inaugural Certificant NYSERDA-eligible Installer VT RE Incentive Program Partner 802.863.1202 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2014 690.12 Rapid Shutdown
David, My sincere thanks to all of you who worked to keep the module level disconnect requirement out of the 2014 code cycle. That ruling would have amounted to a knockout punch for string and central inverters on buildings. What was the driving force behind this push for immediate module level disconnection? There has clearly not been a rash of firefighter deaths due to PV systems. Although PV needs to continue evolving safety standards that take into account the concerns of firefighters, there is no crisis that would justify thwarting one of the few growing sectors of our economy. The PV track record has been amazingly good. So far, I've found no accounts of solar related firefighter deaths or injuries. The NFPA statistics show that the highest cause of firefighter death is heart attack. http://www.nfpa.org/newsandpublications/nfpa-journal/2013/july-august-2013/features/firefighter-fatalities-in-the-united-states-2012http://www.nfpa.org/newsandpublications/nfpa-journal/2013/july-august-2013/features/firefighter-fatalities-in-the-united-states-2012 This push for crippling regulation bears the earmark of ALECs extensive and effective war on solar. As you can read in the following links, the massively funded, Koch brothers-linked ALEC is lobbying heavily, on every level, to derail solar. All who are associated with the solar industry need to be aware of this powerful lobbying campaign. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/04/alec-freerider-homeowners-assault-clean-energyhttp://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/04/alec-freerider-homeowners-assault-clean-energy http://www.salon.com/2013/12/05/alec_freeriders_with_solar_panels_must_pay_for_robbing_the_system/ http://beforeitsnews.com/environment/2014/01/alec-gain-an-inside-track-on-colorado-solar-2490132.htmlhttp://beforeitsnews.com/environment/2014/01/alec-gain-an-inside-track-on-colorado-solar-2490132.html Is there any way that the solar community can be alerted when threats to our industry are being put before the NEC? Although few contractors have the time or money to walk away from their businesses and attend code writing committees, a substantial number might have the time to make phone calls and send letters or emails to code writers. The solar industry needs a strong lobby of its own. Drake At 05:11 PM 1/21/2014, you wrote: Drake, The language in 690.12 is the compromise solution that was reached to ensure continued industry stability. The alternative to the combiner-level shutdown was module-level shutdown. It took a consolidated industry effort to push the module-level requirements out one more Code cyclefor the exact reasons that you touch on below. Not sure if this link has been published on the Wrenches list or not, but it provides some background on the topic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUXShMZJorQhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUXShMZJorQ David Brearley Senior Technical Editor, SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional mailto:david.brear...@solarprofessional.comdavid.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 On Jan 21, 2014, at 1:12 PM, mailto:re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.orgre-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: From: Drake mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.orgdrake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2014 690.12 Rapid Shutdown Date: January 21, 2014 11:36:15 AM CST To: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgre-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Reply-To: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgre-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Bill, It is good to see that energized conductors are going to be disconnected near the arrays. I've been an advocate of disconnecting these conductors by ground fault sensing equipment since ground fault detection was first implemented in the code. If contactors are to be installed on roofs, it likely won't be long before both ground faults and arc faults are automatically cleared. When the requirement for AC arc fault branch circuit protection was first put in the NEC, it was postdated to allow time for the electrical industry to adapt. This new remote disconnecting requirement does not provide any lead time. As the 2014 NEC is adopted in various jurisdictions, inspectors may feel that it is necessary to disallow systems without the newly required disconnect feature. This may result in serious problems for solar companies and customers, as well as manufacturers. The protection of firefighters is essential. The implementation of renewables is essential also. Insurance claims for weather related, global warming-triggered climatic disasters are rising exponentially. Extreme weather related events result in major loss of life and billions of dollars in property damage. Atmospheric CO2 levels continue to climb from the burning of fossil fuels. This is a crisis of global proportions. My request
[RE-wrenches] Temperature Compensation calcs for wire
Friends: I try to be rigorous in application of NEC codes to everything I do, including wire sizing. I understand that even though I am using conductors rated at 90°C, the breakers I use have terminals rated at 75°C so when deriving the values for ampacity for a given gauge from the tables, I have to use the 75°C column. What is not clear, however, is which column I use when applying temperature derating. Table 315(B)(2)(b) has a column for 75 and a column for 90. I am using 90° wire. The values for 90° are much more generous than the 75° values and I would like to use them. Which is correct? As always, thanks to everyone on this list for all of the help and advice. William Gradient Cap Lic 773985 millersolar.com http://www.millersolar.com/ 805-438-5600 image003.jpg___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback 200 RE
This is what the customer decided on. What kind of life do you expect? On Tue, Jan 21, 2014 at 10:20 AM, Tom Duffy t...@thesolar.biz wrote: Chris Yes they seem to be a well-made good quality battery, and we have not had any problems in properly designed and programed systems. Kind regards *Tom Duffy* *Senior Solar Design Engineer* [image: Real-logo-X-195] *E-Mail: **t...@thesolar.biz t...@thesolar.biz* *Panama Office: **507-6126-1253* *Direct Toll Free:* *888-503-6772 888-503-6772* *International: **575-539-2111 575-539-2111* *SKYPE Address: **thesolarbiz* *Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message, a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.* *Confidentiality Notice*: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Chris Mason *Sent:* Monday, January 20, 2014 7:58 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback 200 RE So back to the question...has anyone had experience with the Outback 200RE? ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason President, Comet Systems Ltd www.cometenergysystems.com Cell: 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts image003.png___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Temperature Compensation calcs for wire
William, One way to think about this is that temperature correction is used based on the location of the ambient temperature you are concerned about. Mostly, we are worried about the very high temperature of conductors in a sunlit raceway on a roof. This gives us very high temperatures and we use the 90C table and 90C temperature correction factors. In no case can we have an ampacity that is greater than the 75C table at 30C since the terminal is rated that way. It does not matter what kind of insulation we have on the wirethe wire cant get hotter than 75C at the terminal. What the code is not very good at is telling us what to do with a combiner box on a rooftop with 75C terminals. What is the ambient temperature of a 75C terminal in a rooftop combiner box? Kinda, really, pretty hot, I guess Thats about what we have to go on. If the box is white it might be less. Generally, the current on the string conductors is so small that it is not an issue. However, for an inverter at ground level, the ambient temperature to use for the terminals is probably around 40Cnothing like a rooftop conduit. At the end of the day, the short answer is that you use 90C table with 90C temperature correction factors and the temperature adders for rooftop conduit. That will generally be more aggressive than a 75C terminal at 40C with the 75C temperature correction factors. You are welcome to do the calculation, however. Does this make sense? You cant double-dip and use 75C temperature correction factors on the roof where there are no terminals. That would make it impossible to install PV since these temperatures can occasionally exceed 75C. Bill. From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 4:32 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Temperature Compensation calcs for wire Friends: I try to be rigorous in application of NEC codes to everything I do, including wire sizing. I understand that even though I am using conductors rated at 90°C, the breakers I use have terminals rated at 75°C so when deriving the values for ampacity for a given gauge from the tables, I have to use the 75°C column. What is not clear, however, is which column I use when applying temperature derating. Table 315(B)(2)(b) has a column for 75 and a column for 90. I am using 90° wire. The values for 90° are much more generous than the 75° values and I would like to use them. Which is correct? As always, thanks to everyone on this list for all of the help and advice. William Lic 773985 millersolar.com http://www.millersolar.com/ 805-438-5600 --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com image001.jpg___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Temperature Compensation calcs for wire
Dont we have to use the more restrictive one? Bob Ellison From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William Miller Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2014 7:32 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Temperature Compensation calcs for wire Friends: I try to be rigorous in application of NEC codes to everything I do, including wire sizing. I understand that even though I am using conductors rated at 90°C, the breakers I use have terminals rated at 75°C so when deriving the values for ampacity for a given gauge from the tables, I have to use the 75°C column. What is not clear, however, is which column I use when applying temperature derating. Table 315(B)(2)(b) has a column for 75 and a column for 90. I am using 90° wire. The values for 90° are much more generous than the 75° values and I would like to use them. Which is correct? As always, thanks to everyone on this list for all of the help and advice. William Gradient Cap Lic 773985 millersolar.com http://www.millersolar.com/ 805-438-5600 _ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3681/7023 - Release Date: 01/21/14 _ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3681/7023 - Release Date: 01/21/14 image001.jpg___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 7, Issue 29
Drake, As far I know you are correct. There have not been any firefighter deaths due to solar. However, a fire chief in New Jersey did suggest that he let a warehouse burn down due to the presence of a PV system on the roof: http://www.myfoxphilly.com/story/23313172/multiple-alarm-fire http://www.theatlanticcities.com/technology/2013/09/why-firefighters-are-scared-solar-power/6854/ That suggests to me that while there is no crisis today, there is certainly the potential for one down the road. Imagine the insurance industry's response if fire fighters make a habit of not responding to structural fires due to the presence of PV systems. Fire fighters want touch-safe PV modules. And they have a reasonable complaint. They can safely shut down any electrical system in a building—except for PV systems. SEIA and SEPA are the solar industry lobby. Please do engage and support them. SEIA even has a political action committee, the SolarPAC. Part of the way that I try to stay on top of evolving Code issues is by attending SEIA- and SEPA-sponsored events. Also, over the past 4 or 5 years, the Solar America Board of Codes and Standards has scheduled annual meetings that coincide with Intersolar. Those are very informative sessions. I think the sessions are even archived online at solarancs.org. David Brearley Senior Technical Editor, SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 On Jan 22, 2014, at 8:18 PM, re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: From: Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2014 690.12 Rapid Shutdown Date: January 22, 2014 2:16:18 PM CST To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Reply-To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org David, My sincere thanks to all of you who worked to keep the module level disconnect requirement out of the 2014 code cycle. That ruling would have amounted to a knockout punch for string and central inverters on buildings. What was the driving force behind this push for immediate module level disconnection? There has clearly not been a rash of firefighter deaths due to PV systems. Although PV needs to continue evolving safety standards that take into account the concerns of firefighters, there is no crisis that would justify thwarting one of the few growing sectors of our economy. The PV track record has been amazingly good. So far, I've found no accounts of solar related firefighter deaths or injuries. The NFPA statistics show that the highest cause of firefighter death is heart attack. http://www.nfpa.org/newsandpublications/nfpa-journal/2013/july-august-2013/features/firefighter-fatalities-in-the-united-states-2012 This push for crippling regulation bears the earmark of ALEC’s extensive and effective war on solar. As you can read in the following links, the massively funded, Koch brothers-linked ALEC is lobbying heavily, on every level, to derail solar. All who are associated with the solar industry need to be aware of this powerful lobbying campaign. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/04/alec-freerider-homeowners-assault-clean-energy http://www.salon.com/2013/12/05/alec_freeriders_with_solar_panels_must_pay_for_robbing_the_system/ http://beforeitsnews.com/environment/2014/01/alec-gain-an-inside-track-on-colorado-solar-2490132.html Is there any way that the solar community can be alerted when threats to our industry are being put before the NEC? Although few contractors have the time or money to walk away from their businesses and attend code writing committees, a substantial number might have the time to make phone calls and send letters or emails to code writers. The solar industry needs a strong lobby of its own. Drake ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 7, Issue 29
Drake, Wrenches; There have been firefighter injuries requiring a hospital visit, but no deaths that I know of. I try to keep track, as I train firefighters in renewable energy safety, and teach an IREC accredited class for RE installers on how to start a local firefighter outreach program. But mining the NFIRS database is tricky because keywords vary so much. The most recent firefighter injury I know of was a serious electrical shock resulting from rooftop EMT that became live during a rooftop fire and contacted a chainlink fence; the firefighter was touching the fence. Rooftop flashing, eaves, metal roofs etc can all cause what UL calls 'unexpected current paths' in their recent testing. Their results on testing FF PPE for protection against electrical hazards were also sobering.it does very little, and about zero when wet, which it usually is. As David stated, a big issue right now is how fire commanders are forced to change (and back off from offensive to defensive) their fire attack strategies when PV becomes an 'unknown.' Firefighters are scared of the the unknown, and we never assume *anything*just like how that metal water drum in a garage fire might actually contain diesel or used motor oilor magnesium shavings. I have a whole file of incidents with PV systems where local fire commanders had to back off because they just didn't know. That said, there will be a *great* panel discussion in Denver in March at the NABCEP CE conference regarding these topics and more. The first session involves the new UL2703 racking and fire rating standards; the second one (on which I am honored to be a panelist) the ICC 2012 setbacks and labeling requirements. As a firefighter and PV installer I have a big mouthfull to say about signage.. The new law that NJ Gov Chris Christie just signed into being is very interesting.I'll be analyzing it before the NABCEP conference. I think with all the stakeholders involved, a just and fair equilibrium will be reached, and *hopefully* will be a continuously evolving dialogue between all stakeholders. The last thing RE installers, firefighters, AHJs, and home and business owners want to see is the unknown. Scares the crap out of all of us! On Jan 22, 2014 8:48 PM, David Brearley david.brear...@solarprofessional.com wrote: Drake, As far I know you are correct. There have not been any firefighter deaths due to solar. However, a fire chief in New Jersey did suggest that he let a warehouse burn down due to the presence of a PV system on the roof: http://www.myfoxphilly.com/story/23313172/multiple-alarm-fire http://www.theatlanticcities.com/technology/2013/09/why-firefighters-are-scared-solar-power/6854/ That suggests to me that while there is no crisis today, there is certainly the potential for one down the road. Imagine the insurance industry's response if fire fighters make a habit of not responding to structural fires due to the presence of PV systems. Fire fighters want touch-safe PV modules. And they have a reasonable complaint. They can safely shut down any electrical system in a building—except for PV systems. SEIA and SEPA are the solar industry lobby. Please do engage and support them. SEIA even has a political action committee, the SolarPAC. Part of the way that I try to stay on top of evolving Code issues is by attending SEIA- and SEPA-sponsored events. Also, over the past 4 or 5 years, the Solar America Board of Codes and Standards has scheduled annual meetings that coincide with Intersolar. Those are very informative sessions. I think the sessions are even archived online at solarancs.org. David Brearley Senior Technical Editor, *SolarPro* magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 On Jan 22, 2014, at 8:18 PM, re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.orgwrote: *From: *Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org *Subject: **Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2014 690.12 Rapid Shutdown* *Date: *January 22, 2014 2:16:18 PM CST *To: *RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org *Reply-To: *RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org David, My sincere thanks to all of you who worked to keep the module level disconnect requirement out of the 2014 code cycle. That ruling would have amounted to a knockout punch for string and central inverters on buildings. What was the driving force behind this push for immediate module level disconnection? There has clearly *not* been a rash of firefighter deaths due to PV systems. Although PV needs to continue evolving safety standards that take into account the concerns of firefighters, there is no crisis that would justify thwarting one of the few growing sectors of our economy. The PV track record has been amazingly good. So far, I've found no accounts of solar related firefighter deaths or injuries. The NFPA statistics show that the highest cause of firefighter death is heart attack.
