[RE-wrenches] 10 hr OSHA training
Anyone have a good referral for a company providing training regarding this
NABCEP requirement?
Please contact me off list.
t...@swnl.net www.SWNL.net
Solarwinds Northernlights
Serving Mid Coast Maine Northern California
207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401
Blair TUMP May
MAINE'S CHARTER
NABCEPCertified PV Installer
MAINE'S CHARTER
Trace Xantrex Certified Dealer / Installer
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Carport on a Parking Ramp
Hi Karl, Many parking garages are built with future growth in mind, so the columns are often capable of handling significant additional load. That's not the case with the deck however, so connection to anything but the columns will likely require structural reinforcement. Attachment to the deck may also impede maintenance such as plowing (not sure if that is an issue in your area), and could take parking spaces out of service that are often more valuable than the energy produced by the array. In addition to the solid and relevant advice already given by others, I would recommend aligning yourself with a reputable SE firm that has design experience parking garages, and a racking company and/or steel fabricator that can advise on what is possible for your specific site. A prefab carport system may be an attractive solution, but contrary to what their sales people might tell you it will likely not pass structural when installed on top of a parking garage without significant structural reinforcement. Good luck! Garrison Riegel PV Operations Manager | http://www.solarserviceinc.com/ Solar Service Inc [p] 847-677-0950 | mailto:garri...@solarserviceinc.com garri...@solarserviceinc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalT From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of David Brearley Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 9:04 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Carport on a Parking Ramp Hi Karl, Besides working with a PE, you may need to Xray the concrete to determine a connection detail that won't compromise any reinforcing steel in the concrete. The SPG Solar case study in this article may be relevant: http://bit.ly/1e4LCKd (The link to the case study is next to the photo, under the text Inside this Article. It is the Kern County Administration Building case study.) We also profiled a Solar Service project on a parking garage in Illinois that may be relevant: http://bit.ly/1gabDd4 David Brearley Senior Technical Editor, SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional david.brear...@solarprofessional.com mailto:david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 On Feb 5, 2014, at 8:38 PM, re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: From: Karl Jaeger mailto:kjae...@lightwavesolar.com kjae...@lightwavesolar.com Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Carport on a Parking Ramp Date: February 5, 2014 1:40:45 PM CST To: mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Reply-To: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Howdy Wrenches, Any of y'all have any experience with installing a carport atop a parking ramp? Any lessons learned and/or advice you could give? Any recommendations on attachment methods to the pre-stressed concrete? Much appreciated! Karl Jaeger LightWave Solar Electric LLC ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery venting issue
Allan, The primary concern should be the volume of gas discharge if over voltage occurs. This study helped me understand the risks: http://www.sonnenschein.org/Gassing.htm Quote from the study: Gassing according to IEC 896/2-Oct 95 @ 2.3v / cell within 30 days was measured @ 5mL/cell/ah while Overcharging @ 2.48v/cell caused 900m L / cell / ah within 30 days! Also heres a technical bulletin from CD that discusses how long a 2% concentration takes during overcharge. See document 41-6739: http://www.cdtechno.com/resource/support_doc.html Thank you, Larry Crutcher (928) 342-9103 www.starlightsolar.com la...@starlightsolar.com Retail Store Warehouse 2998 Shari Ave. Yuma, Az 85365 USPS Postal Mail Only 11881 S Fortuna Road, #210 Yuma, AZ 85367 On Feb 5, 2014, at 7:38 PM, Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com wrote: Wrenches, I need a bit of help here if you have it. Since 2002 we have installed somewhere between 30 and 35 systems with sealed batteries installed in manufactured enclosures, originally Outback enclosures and in recent years Midnite MNBE enclosures. At least ten of these have been indoors in one form or another - usually a laundry or mechanical room. Our battery of choice is Concorde SunXtender. We have only added mechanical ventilation (Zephyr Power-Vent to outside) if the battery enclosure itself is sealed. Nearly all of these have been permitted and inspected systems, and we have never had a problem with the inspectors. Of course, we always vent flooded systems to the outside, nearly always using a Power Vent fan. Now we have. An AHJ failed a system for lack of ventilation, and our attempts to resolve it have not been effective. The Chief Electrical Inspector has weighed in, and we are right at the point of filing a Request for Code Interpretation with the New Mexico Electrical Division Technical Advisory Panel. I have not wanted to just add ventilation to pass inspection because of the precedent doing so is likely to set for future installations. The GC on the job supports my attempts to push back, as do the homeowners. The Chief Inspector thinks that the 700 square foot unheated room in which our system is installed is a bedroom; it's actually a storeroom for the homeowners' collectible book home business. My request: please send me documented work by others establishing that PV systems with sealed VRLA batteries are used specifically because they are considered safe without venting to the outside. If you know of good online links, I could use them too. For example, the AHJ asked for a document stating that the batteries or the enclosure were specifically approved for this use in an indoor location. I can't - Midnite battery enclosures are simply listed to UL508A, which is industrial control panels and there's nothing specific to this application in the standard. To me this is a common-sense issue, but common sense doesn't cut it when needing to prove a procedure. Can anyone help? For what it's worth, or for those Wrenches with too much spare time, below is the text of the original defense of our installation that I sent to the AHJ. His response was that he's not an electrical engineer and this would have to be taken upstairs. For what it's worth, I'm not an EE either... My frustration is showing, I'm sure. Thank you for any links, reports or other resources you may be able to send my way. Allan Original Message Mr. [AHJ], I have done some research as followup to our discussion last week about battery venting for the [X] job. Here are several perspectives on the issue: The NEC Section 480.9(A) states only that Provisions shall be made for sufficient diffusion and ventilation of the gases from the battery to prevent the accumulation of an explosive mixture. At root, you are questioning whether ventilation of the batteries into the storeroom at the [X] home is sufficient under worst-case conditions. The NEC Handbook entries for Section 480.9(A), which are considered as explanatory support documentation and are not Code requirements, include two paragraphs that are fundamentally contradictory to each other. The two read: The intent of 480.9(A) is not to mandate mechanical ventilation. Hydrogen disperses rapidly and requires little air movement to prevent accumulation. Unrestricted natural air movement in the vicinity of the battery, together with normal air changes for occupied spaces or heat removal, normally is sufficient. If the space is confined, mechanical ventilation may be required in the vicinity of the battery. This paragraph refers to batteries in general, including flooded batteries which release hydrogen gas as a normal part of the charging process. The Handbook section goes on to specifically identify sealed batteries as being unlikely to release explosive gases: Although valve-regulated batteries are often referred to as sealed, they actually emit very small quantities
Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Carport on a Parking Ramp
Thank you everyone for your input! From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Garrison Riegel Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 9:29 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Carport on a Parking Ramp Hi Karl, Many parking garages are built with future growth in mind, so the columns are often capable of handling significant additional load. That's not the case with the deck however, so connection to anything but the columns will likely require structural reinforcement. Attachment to the deck may also impede maintenance such as plowing (not sure if that is an issue in your area), and could take parking spaces out of service that are often more valuable than the energy produced by the array. In addition to the solid and relevant advice already given by others, I would recommend aligning yourself with a reputable SE firm that has design experience parking garages, and a racking company and/or steel fabricator that can advise on what is possible for your specific site. A prefab carport system may be an attractive solution, but contrary to what their sales people might tell you it will likely not pass structural when installed on top of a parking garage without significant structural reinforcement. Good luck! Garrison Riegel PV Operations Manager | Solar Service Inchttp://www.solarserviceinc.com/ [p] 847-677-0950 | garri...@solarserviceinc.commailto:garri...@solarserviceinc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional(tm) From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of David Brearley Sent: Wednesday, February 05, 2014 9:04 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Carport on a Parking Ramp Hi Karl, Besides working with a PE, you may need to Xray the concrete to determine a connection detail that won't compromise any reinforcing steel in the concrete. The SPG Solar case study in this article may be relevant: http://bit.ly/1e4LCKd (The link to the case study is next to the photo, under the text Inside this Article. It is the Kern County Administration Building case study.) We also profiled a Solar Service project on a parking garage in Illinois that may be relevant: http://bit.ly/1gabDd4 David Brearley Senior Technical Editor, SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional david.brear...@solarprofessional.commailto:david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 On Feb 5, 2014, at 8:38 PM, re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: From: Karl Jaeger kjae...@lightwavesolar.commailto:kjae...@lightwavesolar.com Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Carport on a Parking Ramp Date: February 5, 2014 1:40:45 PM CST To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Reply-To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgmailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Howdy Wrenches, Any of y'all have any experience with installing a carport atop a parking ramp? Any lessons learned and/or advice you could give? Any recommendations on attachment methods to the pre-stressed concrete? Much appreciated! Karl Jaeger LightWave Solar Electric LLC ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Solar Module fire ratings
I've just been informed by a city (our own City in fact) that is asking for minimum Class-B fire-rated solar modules, citing rules newly adopted Jan 1, 2014. The expert behind the counter made reference to IRC section 902.4, which seems to call for solar installations to meet the same fire rating standard as the roofing on which they are installed. It was the end of the day. Most roofing is B or A rating apparently, and my official was adamant that this meant only a B or A rated panel would be allowed. As far as I know, virtually every solar panel I've ever handled going back to the mid 90's was Class C rated. The only Class A I remember (and the only one I noticed from web searching) was the obnoxiously unwieldy glass-on-glass 300-watt series that got absorbed by Schott and probably discontinued many years ago. I have one of those antiques in my shop for fun, and I encountered exactly one installation that used the product (from another installer), and there were issues with the panels within the first 10 years. Is this Class A/B requirement issue true? Did the state fire marshall adopt a policy at the start of this year that basically bans all panels with C rating? Are there any class B or A rated modules on the market? Who's brilliant idea was this? /wk -- William Korthof http://www.sustainsp.com/images/SSP_Logo_RGB_email.jpg 714.875.3576 and 800.524.2970 Sustainable Solutions Partners (also dba: EE Solar) ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Carport on a Parking Ramp
We did a 112 kW system added to top level of almost new multi-story parking deck at a University. While we provided all solar design, we teamed with a structural engineering firm that provided all structural details to support the standard Unirack mounting racks. Since we were not allowed to take up any parking spaces with supports, each array row had to span over the up and down ramps in the center of this deck. This required free spans over 100 feet so structural steel was very large. Everything attached to existing concrete piers, but this required x-ray of piers to identify location of all internal rebar so mounting holes and bolts did not cut into these. The cost of the structural work was very high and I am glad we had a quality structural engineer on board. Make sure to determine if client will allow array mounting structure supports to take up some parking spaces and if not, you better have a really big budget for the structural support system! Jeff Yago DTI Solar Inc. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] DC Series Fusing in inverters
SMA inverters typically come with 15A KLKD fuses pre-installed. I have seen a bunch of blown fuses recently (after cold weather)... It seems that some dealers are just assuming the 15A fuse is okay for series strings and not doing the calculations. I've been finding quite a few Evergreen systems or parallel connected two-string SunPower systems that should have 20A fuses per NEC 690.8. The problem does seem to be worse where inverters are exposed to direct sunlight, presumably from fuses that no longer meet their ampacity rating due to heat. Anyone else run into this frequently? Jason Szumlanski Fafco Solar ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] DC Series Fusing in inverters
I think I just read that SMA has changed their long-standing 15A per string fuses to 20A. You might look to see if it applies to existing systems. Hope it helps. Glenn From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 12:50 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC Series Fusing in inverters SMA inverters typically come with 15A KLKD fuses pre-installed. I have seen a bunch of blown fuses recently (after cold weather)... It seems that some dealers are just assuming the 15A fuse is okay for series strings and not doing the calculations. I've been finding quite a few Evergreen systems or parallel connected two-string SunPower systems that should have 20A fuses per NEC 690.8. The problem does seem to be worse where inverters are exposed to direct sunlight, presumably from fuses that no longer meet their ampacity rating due to heat. Anyone else run into this frequently? Jason Szumlanski Fafco Solar ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Ground Racking?
Panduit also has an enormous variety of cable ties available. http://www.panduit.com/wcs/Satellite?pagename=PG_Wrapper http://www.panduit.com/wcs/Satellite?pagename=PG_Wrapperfriendlyurl=/en/pr oducts-and-services/products/cable-ties-and-accessories friendlyurl=/en/products-and-services/products/cable-ties-and-accessories just be sure to look for the ones suitable for outdoor use. -Glenn From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Chris Mason Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2014 6:48 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Ground Racking? In reference to William's comments on cable ties, which are very valid, HellermannTyton makes a huge range of ties for every industry. They have a catalogue of solar components which includes stainless ties and plastic covered stainless ties. As an industry, we need to be purchasing the correct products and not going to the local Home Depot and buying home owner junk. http://www.hellermanntyton.us/products_solar.aspx On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 2:42 AM, Kelly Larson solarwre...@asis.com wrote: Thanks, Andrew. I have a stack of SolarPro waiting for the rain to hit. Looks like we are getting some soon. (Thank goodness) Blessings, Kelly On Feb 4, 2014, at 11:02 PM, Andrew Truitt wrote: Kelly - Here are a couple of SolarPro articles that you might find helpful: http://solarprofessional.com/articles/design-installation/ground-mounted-pv http://solarprofessional.com/articles/products-equipment/racking/ground-moun t-pv-racking-systems/page/0/1 For a brighter energy future, Andrew Truitt Principal Truitt Renewable Energy Consulting, LLC (202) 486-7507 tel:%28202%29%20486-7507 LinkedIn Profile http://www.linkedin.com/pub/andrew-truitt/8/622/713 Company Website http://truittreconsulting.weebly.com/ NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66 Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132 image001.jpg Don't get me wrong: I love nuclear energy! It's just that I prefer fusion to fission. And it just so happens that there's an enormous fusion reactor safely banked a few million miles from us. It delivers more than we could ever use in just about 8 minutes. And it's wireless! ~William McDonough On Tue, Feb 4, 2014 at 9:58 PM, Kelly Larson solarwre...@asis.com wrote: Wow, William. Thank you for all the details. One size clearly doesn't fit all! I like the page with all the different wire management options you've used. Somebody tell me why we still don't have this taken care of WITH the racking... Shesh. Blessings, Kelly On Feb 4, 2014, at 8:47 PM, will...@millersolar.com will...@millersolar.com wrote: Kelly: Ground mount racking choice is determined on a case-by-case basis. If the ground is flat and area plentiful, we use ballasted on gravel (Dyno-Raxx). If you need to seasonally adjust, we like the DPW MPM. If the ground is sloped other than gradually south, top of pole mounts may be your choice. For flat ground, low tilt (grid-tied) fence post arrays like the DPW LGM work well. For high wind areas, consider the DPW TTRGM on piers spanned by strut. Lest anyone think I am the cheering section for DPW, I suggest you avoid the DPW P6 or P8 Tilt Kit assemblies. The brackets are flimsy. Also, avoid DPW's L-feet. They are bent aluminum and come pre-stress cracked at no extra cost. For L-feet, use Unirac Serrated L-feet. It is refreshing to hear someone ask about wire management upfront. All too often this is an afterthought. In the industry vacuum we have been developing wire management systems on an ongoing basis. Below is a link that depicts some of our ideas. http://www.millersolar.com/public_html/MillerSolar/practices/PV_wiring/_PV_W iring2.html The Code now requires wire shielding on readily accessible PV which means ground mount. Just managing the wire is not enough, you must shield it from touch. One option is to enclose the PV in chain link, which ramps up the ugly factor (I don't think three rail pasture fence or even barbed wire complies). Once you fence the array you can dispense with shielding, but you still don't want the leads dangling in a year or two, so avoid any flavor of plastic wire ties. There have been studies proving they don't last (US Navy is one source). We have looked at racking members with larger interior cross section (i.e. Pro-Solar) with the intent of running AC and DC leads inside and we have even mocked up a few, but fitting leads and the proprietary nuts into the same channel has proven impractical. Good luck. William Miller PS: Speaking of racking systems, did anyone get the news that SnapNRack and indeed the entire REC Residential juggernaut has been sold? Read the rest of this story Wm On Feb 4, 2014, at 4:45 PM, Kelly Larson solarwre...@asis.com wrote: Thanks, Aaron. How
Re: [RE-wrenches] DC Series Fusing in inverters
That's good to know. My service call today was a 1-2 year old SunPower branded SMA SPR-5000m. There was one blown 15A fuse in input 1 and one spare 15A in input 4. Jason Szumlanski Fafco Solar On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 12:56 PM, Glenn Burt glenn.b...@glbcc.com wrote: read that SMA has changed their long-standing 15A per string fuses to 20A. You might look to see if it applies to existing systems. Hope it helps. Glenn ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] DC Series Fusing in inverters
Jason...as you know, the fusing should match the max series fuse ratings of the module requirements per the module manufacturerIf strings are individually fused and combined before the fused disconnect box then the fuses often need to be changed from the factory supplied 15A fusesNote the maximum allowed by SMA per the disconnect limitations per string of their disconnect.Fronius used to supply metal slugs that fit in the fuse holders if no fusing was required on the input. Didn't some of the Evergreen modules call for 20A series fuses? Good luck.. Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional Renewable Energy Systems www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-218-0201 m 541-299-0402 o On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 9:56 AM, Glenn Burt glenn.b...@glbcc.com wrote: I think I just read that SMA has changed their long-standing 15A per string fuses to 20A. You might look to see if it applies to existing systems. Hope it helps. Glenn *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski *Sent:* Thursday, February 06, 2014 12:50 PM *To:* RE-wrenches *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] DC Series Fusing in inverters SMA inverters typically come with 15A KLKD fuses pre-installed. I have seen a bunch of blown fuses recently (after cold weather)... It seems that some dealers are just assuming the 15A fuse is okay for series strings and not doing the calculations. I've been finding quite a few Evergreen systems or parallel connected two-string SunPower systems that should have 20A fuses per NEC 690.8. The problem does seem to be worse where inverters are exposed to direct sunlight, presumably from fuses that no longer meet their ampacity rating due to heat. Anyone else run into this frequently? Jason Szumlanski Fafco Solar ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Subject: Re: Best Ground Racking?
Racking: I used Prosolar for a long time and then switched to Iron ridge, I am pretty happy with it in all areas but the rails are pricy. Things I like -It has minimal deflection when tightening, but you have to tighten the Ubolts evenly. -The new mid clamps have teeth that penetrate both the module and the racking so you do not need weebs for module grounding. -End caps for sealing the rails are cheap. -It has slots like uni-rack that allows for a decent amount of adjustment. -As for wire management, there are two types of stainless rail clips for managing enphase size cable or attaching up to four pv wires on parallel rail runs. -When using central inverters I run all of my inverter to module cables in emt-heyco stain reliefs to MC connectors this turns out extremely tidy -For the grounding I use a weeb grounding lug that sits in the top rail with a 7/16 stainless bolt that allows for a strong connection. Things that do make it tedious there are a lot of stainless bolts, I use pentrox as a anti galling compound, what do other people use? when installing a micro inverter system you have to get all of your inverter mounting bolts in place before installing the cabling, they have to be end loaded, I would prefer and bolt similar to the mids that twists and locks in. If you would like a few pictures I can send them to you or you can see them on our facebook page West Coast Sustainables Jason West Coast Sustainables Jason Andrade C-46# 974647 (530) 410-4745 Cell (530) 241-7498 Office ja...@westcoastsustainables.com Watch This! -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2014 8:55 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 7, Issue 43 Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org You can reach the person managing the list at re-wrenches-ow...@lists.re-wrenches.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest... When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines from the quoted message. Today's Topics: 1. Re: Best Ground Racking? (Aaron Mandelkorn) 2. Re: Best Ground Racking? (will...@millersolar.com) 3. Re: Best Ground Racking? (Kelly Larson) -- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2014 17:28:42 -0700 From: Aaron Mandelkorn reoso...@gmail.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Best Ground Racking? Message-ID: ed5186be-1cba-44e8-9df3-887df5d01...@gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Connection through concrete and soon tubes. The horizontal main support tube (4 x 4 square tube) makes wire management easy. It can easily hold wire gutters, j boxes and conduit runs. Typically I will run the home runs in free air and into a wire gutter mounted on the 4x4 horizontal tube. Then conduit down to the bos equipment mounted on a vertical support pole. Aaron Aaron Mandelkorn Owner/Solar Specialist Renewable Energy Outfitters 719-221-5249 970-596-3744 www.reosolar.com reoso...@gmail.com On Feb 4, 2014, at 4:45 PM, Kelly Larson solarwre...@asis.com wrote: Thanks, Aaron. How are you handling wire management and connection to the ground? Blessings, Kelly On Feb 4, 2014, at 2:41 PM, Aaron Mandelkorn wrote: I like SnapNrack 200 Series as well as DPW Solar Multi Pole Mount. Aaron Mandelkorn Owner / Solar Specialist Renewable Energy Outfitters Box 65 Salida CO. 81201 719-221-5249 970-596-3744 reoso...@gmail.com www.reosolar.com On Feb 4, 2014, at 3:28 PM, Kelly Larson solarwre...@asis.com wrote: Hi, We are looking to install some 4KW ground mounted arrays. What racking are you using? Best ground connection? Wire management? The shows have so many choices, and I keep doing the same ol thing... Blessings, Kelly Kelly Larson Electrical Engineer NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional IREC Certified Master Trainer CA Electrical Contractor# 868189 SolarKelly.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Module fire ratings
William, There are few Class A fire-rated PV modules on the market today: http://www.trinasolar.com/us/product/PDG5.html http://www.silicon-energy.com/products/modules The broader context is that UL is in the process of revising the way that fire ratings are determined for PV systems. To date, modules have received a fire classification. However in the installed environment, fire propagation has more to do with the mounting system than with module construction. Therefore, fire classification tests in the future will be based more on the mounting method. As Bill Brooks explained here on January 8th: UL 1703 has been substantially changed as to how modules are fire rated. Basically, modules will no longer receive a direct fire rating unless they are installed in a fire-rated mounting system. A current module with a Class C or Class A rating will no longer have that rating. The mounting system will carry the fire rating. Modules will have specific “types” based on their construction. This way a rack manufacturer can get a fire rating on modules of a particular module construction type and not have to rerate their rack with every module that has that same construction. All these changes in the UL1703 standard are going to require education so that fire officials and building code enforcement officials understand how to enforce the new building code rules in light of the new version of the UL standard. Arguably, enforcement of fire rating requirements in the I-codes is running ahead of the development of the applicable UL standard. It's safe to say that working groups at SEIA and SolarABCs are very interested in tracking these types of issues. The SolarABCs has had fire classification ratings on its radar for several years now: http://www.solarabcs.org/current-issues/fire_class_rating.html David Brearley Senior Technical Editor, SolarPro magazine NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional david.brear...@solarprofessional.com Direct: 541.261.6545 On Feb 6, 2014, at 12:20 PM, re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org wrote: From: William Korthof wkort...@gmail.com Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar Module fire ratings Date: February 6, 2014 10:56:05 AM CST To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Reply-To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org I've just been informed by a city (our own City in fact) that is asking for minimum Class-B fire-rated solar modules, citing rules newly adopted Jan 1, 2014. The expert behind the counter made reference to IRC section 902.4, which seems to call for solar installations to meet the same fire rating standard as the roofing on which they are installed. It was the end of the day. Most roofing is B or A rating apparently, and my official was adamant that this meant only a B or A rated panel would be allowed. As far as I know, virtually every solar panel I've ever handled going back to the mid 90's was Class C rated. The only Class A I remember (and the only one I noticed from web searching) was the obnoxiously unwieldy glass-on-glass 300-watt series that got absorbed by Schott and probably discontinued many years ago. I have one of those antiques in my shop for fun, and I encountered exactly one installation that used the product (from another installer), and there were issues with the panels within the first 10 years. Is this Class A/B requirement issue true? Did the state fire marshall adopt a policy at the start of this year that basically bans all panels with C rating? Are there any class B or A rated modules on the market? Who's brilliant idea was this? /wk -- William Korthof 714.875.3576 and 800.524.2970 Sustainable Solutions Partners (also dba: EE Solar) ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Subject: Re: Best Ground Racking?
We use Anti- Seize Lubricant made by Permalex. I get it at the auto parts store. I have an 8 oz. bottle with built in brush on applicator. Definitely recommended on all SS hardware. I took apart another installer5's rack to add modules, and half the bolts were ruined and had to be replaced. I recommend a torque wrench too, its super easy to over5 tighten the SS hardware. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 2/6/2014 11:20 AM, Jason Andrade wrote: there are a lot of stainless bolts, I use pentrox as a anti galling compound, what do other people use? ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Subject: Re: Best Ground Racking?
Probably Permatex. On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 4:55 PM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote: We use Anti- Seize Lubricant made by Permalex. I get it at the auto parts store. I have an 8 oz. bottle with built in brush on applicator. Definitely recommended on all SS hardware. I took apart another installer5's rack to add modules, and half the bolts were ruined and had to be replaced. I recommend a torque wrench too, its super easy to over5 tighten the SS hardware. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 2/6/2014 11:20 AM, Jason Andrade wrote: there are a lot of stainless bolts, I use pentrox as a anti galling compound, what do other people use? ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re- wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason President, Comet Systems Ltd www.cometenergysystems.com Cell: 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Subject: Re: Best Ground Racking?
This is the stuff. Be prepared for it to get everywhere, it's really messy (or maybe I am). http://www.amazon.com/Permatex-80078-Anti-Seize-Lubricant-Bottle/dp/B000AAJTXY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8qid=1391721840sr=8-1keywords=permatex+anti-seize+lubricant On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 5:21 PM, Chris Mason cometenergysyst...@gmail.comwrote: Probably Permatex. On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 4:55 PM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote: We use Anti- Seize Lubricant made by Permalex. I get it at the auto parts store. I have an 8 oz. bottle with built in brush on applicator. Definitely recommended on all SS hardware. I took apart another installer5's rack to add modules, and half the bolts were ruined and had to be replaced. I recommend a torque wrench too, its super easy to over5 tighten the SS hardware. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 2/6/2014 11:20 AM, Jason Andrade wrote: there are a lot of stainless bolts, I use pentrox as a anti galling compound, what do other people use? ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re- wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason President, Comet Systems Ltd www.cometenergysystems.com Cell: 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts -- Chris Mason President, Comet Systems Ltd www.cometenergysystems.com Cell: 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Subject: Re: Best Ground Racking?
Yes Permatex. I took the name off the bottle, but the T in the logo looked like a L. Thanks for the correction. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 2/6/2014 2:25 PM, Chris Mason wrote: This is the stuff. Be prepared for it to get everywhere, it's really messy (or maybe I am). http://www.amazon.com/Permatex-80078-Anti-Seize-Lubricant-Bottle/dp/B000AAJTXY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8qid=1391721840sr=8-1keywords=permatex+anti-seize+lubricant On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 5:21 PM, Chris Mason cometenergysyst...@gmail.com mailto:cometenergysyst...@gmail.com wrote: Probably Permatex. On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 4:55 PM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com mailto:r...@solarray.com wrote: We use Anti- Seize Lubricant made by Permalex. I get it at the auto parts store. I have an 8 oz. bottle with built in brush on applicator. Definitely recommended on all SS hardware. I took apart another installer5's rack to add modules, and half the bolts were ruined and had to be replaced. I recommend a torque wrench too, its super easy to over5 tighten the SS hardware. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 tel:303%20505-8760 On 2/6/2014 11:20 AM, Jason Andrade wrote: there are a lot of stainless bolts, I use pentrox as a anti galling compound, what do other people use? ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org http://www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason President, Comet Systems Ltd www.cometenergysystems.com http://www.cometenergysystems.com Cell: 264.235.5670 tel:264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts -- Chris Mason President, Comet Systems Ltd www.cometenergysystems.com http://www.cometenergysystems.com Cell: 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Subject: Re: Best Ground Racking?
Ray Gave up on stainless fasteners and anti-sieze a long time ago after discovering Dura-Con Fasteners http://www.duracon.info/p/why-dura-con.html. Better corrsion resistance against aluminum than stainless and no galling! We have used them for training where systems are assembled and disassembled several times. Even with anti-sieze still would have to hack a few fasteners off every time. With Dura-Con no more problem. I also believe that they are also cheaper than quality Stainless ( not all stainless fasteners are created equal!) . Try em you'll be asking every racking company to switch over from stainless! Bill, now gall-free Bill and loving it! On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 12:55 PM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote: We use Anti- Seize Lubricant made by Permalex. I get it at the auto parts store. I have an 8 oz. bottle with built in brush on applicator. Definitely recommended on all SS hardware. I took apart another installer5's rack to add modules, and half the bolts were ruined and had to be replaced. I recommend a torque wrench too, its super easy to over5 tighten the SS hardware. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 2/6/2014 11:20 AM, Jason Andrade wrote: there are a lot of stainless bolts, I use pentrox as a anti galling compound, what do other people use? ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re- wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- William Hoffer 161 SE Fourth Ave P.O. Box 1823 White Salmon, WA 98672-1823 suneng...@gmail.com bhof...@sunergyengineeringservices.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] DC Fusing/Breakers for Battery Circuits
All, I think that in the past, list discussions have talked about fusing of parallel battery circuits as a best practice, but it's required per 690.9 right? (text below from 2008 NEC) Also, if someone (don't look at me) really wants to use 2 parallel circuits of 12V batteries, what equipment is recommended to provide overcurrent protection? The installer is using Outback hardware (FW500?) and has two battery circuits combined in the battery enclosure and run to a Big Bus feeding the two 125A dc disconnects for two GVFX3648s. If you've read this far, this area is more your wheelhouse than mine. Thanks in advance! 690.9 Overcurrent Protection (A) Circuits and Equipment. Photovoltaic source circuit, photovoltaic output circuit, inverter output circuit, and storage battery circuit conductors and equipment shall be protected in accordance with the requirements of Article 240. Circuits connected to more than one electrical source shall have overcurrent devices located so as to provide overcurrent protection from all sources. Exception: An overcurrent device shall not be required for circuit conductors sized in accordance with 690.8(B) and located where one of the following apply: (a) There are no external sources such as parallel-connected source circuits, batteries, or backfeed from inverters. (b) The short-circuit currents from all sources do not exceed the ampacity of the conductors. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] DC Fusing/Breakers for Battery Circuits
Dave, I think the key reference is Section VIII, Storage Batteries, 690.71 Installation. (C) Current Limiting. A listed, current-limiting, overcurrent device shall be installed in each circuit adjacent to the batteries where the available short-circuit current from a battery or battery bank exceeds the interrupting or withstand ratings of other equipment in that circuit. The installation of current-limiting fuses shall comply with 690.16. You need to calculate the amount of current your batteries can provide into a fault, which is a function of capacity, internal resistance and a few other details your battery manufacturer should be able to provide. The OutBack 175/250A panel mount breakers have an AIC rating of 100,000 at 65VDC, 50,000 at 125VDC. If the fault current your two strings of batteries can provide is less than 100,000, you can parallel the two circuits. If not, you should provide overcurrent protection on each string. Class T fuses can be used to provide current limiting capability to within that range. Phil On Thursday, February 6, 2014, Dave Click davecl...@fsec.ucf.edu wrote: All, I think that in the past, list discussions have talked about fusing of parallel battery circuits as a best practice, but it's required per 690.9 right? (text below from 2008 NEC) Also, if someone (don't look at me) really wants to use 2 parallel circuits of 12V batteries, what equipment is recommended to provide overcurrent protection? The installer is using Outback hardware (FW500?) and has two battery circuits combined in the battery enclosure and run to a Big Bus feeding the two 125A dc disconnects for two GVFX3648s. If you've read this far, this area is more your wheelhouse than mine. Thanks in advance! 690.9 Overcurrent Protection (A) Circuits and Equipment. Photovoltaic source circuit, photovoltaic output circuit, inverter output circuit, and storage battery circuit conductors and equipment shall be protected in accordance with the requirements of Article 240. Circuits connected to more than one electrical source shall have overcurrent devices located so as to provide overcurrent protection from all sources. Exception: An overcurrent device shall not be required for circuit conductors sized in accordance with 690.8(B) and located where one of the following apply: (a) There are no external sources such as parallel-connected source circuits, batteries, or backfeed from inverters. (b) The short-circuit currents from all sources do not exceed the ampacity of the conductors. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re- wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] DC Fusing/Breakers for Battery Circuits
Dave, I'm not really clear what your question is, but let me take a stab at it anyway. Parallel strings of batteries are routine in PV systems; indeed, far more common than single strings of large cells. Seldom are the individual strings separately fused, and I have never seen it required as a Code issue. The entire battery bank as a single entity is considered a single current source. Overcurrent protection is sized in accordance with the battery cable size - or rather vice versa: the overcurrent protection is sized to the requirements of the inverter(s) and the cables are sized to the overcurrent protection. Having said that, there are at least two cases where it's a good idea to account for it, whether or not addressed in the Code: 1) In smaller systems, such as with two or three strings of common batteries, you will eventually have a cell failure. When that happens, the amps increase on the other remaining strings. So it is good practice to oversize series and parallel interconnects for that eventuality. 2) For similar reasons, in large battery banks we have sometimes added Class T fuses, appropriately sized to the application, to the B+ output of each string before combining them on a bussbar. These fuses serve only as catastrophic protection in case the entire load tries to exceed the ampacity of one set of cells and thus one set of cables. When we have done what I think you have described - two parallel 48V strings of 4 12V batteries each - we combine them with cables, without additional string-level protection. That is in accordance with manufacturers' instructions. Allan Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder, Positive Energy, Inc. A Certified B CorporationTM 3209 Richards Lane Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell www.positiveenergysolar.com On 2/6/2014 3:23 PM, Dave Click wrote: All, I think that in the past, list discussions have talked about fusing of parallel battery circuits as a best practice, but it's required per 690.9 right? (text below from 2008 NEC) Also, if someone (don't look at me) really wants to use 2 parallel circuits of 12V batteries, what equipment is recommended to provide overcurrent protection? The installer is using Outback hardware (FW500?) and has two battery circuits combined in the battery enclosure and run to a Big Bus feeding the two 125A dc disconnects for two GVFX3648s. If you've read this far, this area is more your wheelhouse than mine. Thanks in advance! 690.9 Overcurrent Protection (A) Circuits and Equipment. Photovoltaic source circuit, photovoltaic output circuit, inverter output circuit, and storage battery circuit conductors and equipment shall be protected in accordance with the requirements of Article 240. Circuits connected to more than one electrical source shall have overcurrent devices located so as to provide overcurrent protection from all sources. Exception: An overcurrent device shall not be required for circuit conductors sized in accordance with 690.8(B) and located where one of the following apply: (a) There are no external sources such as parallel-connected source circuits, batteries, or backfeed from inverters. (b) The short-circuit currents from all sources do not exceed the ampacity of the conductors. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios:
Re: [RE-wrenches] DC Fusing/Breakers for Battery Circuits
Allan's assessment matches my experience. Interesting note: Outback's IBR enclosures include string-level overcurrent protection for added safety according to their data sheet. http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/integrated_battery_rack/spec_sheet.pdf http://www.outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/integrated_battery_rack/integrated_battery_rack_installation_manual.pdf Jason Szumlanski On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 6:06 PM, Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com wrote: Dave, I'm not really clear what your question is, but let me take a stab at it anyway. Parallel strings of batteries are routine in PV systems; indeed, far more common than single strings of large cells. Seldom are the individual strings separately fused, and I have never seen it required as a Code issue. The entire battery bank as a single entity is considered a single current source. Overcurrent protection is sized in accordance with the battery cable size - or rather vice versa: the overcurrent protection is sized to the requirements of the inverter(s) and the cables are sized to the overcurrent protection. Having said that, there are at least two cases where it's a good idea to account for it, whether or not addressed in the Code: 1) In smaller systems, such as with two or three strings of common batteries, you will eventually have a cell failure. When that happens, the amps increase on the other remaining strings. So it is good practice to oversize series and parallel interconnects for that eventuality. 2) For similar reasons, in large battery banks we have sometimes added Class T fuses, appropriately sized to the application, to the B+ output of each string before combining them on a bussbar. These fuses serve only as catastrophic protection in case the entire load tries to exceed the ampacity of one set of cells and thus one set of cables. When we have done what I think you have described - two parallel 48V strings of 4 12V batteries each - we combine them with cables, without additional string-level protection. That is in accordance with manufacturers' instructions. Allan *Allan Sindelar* *al...@positiveenergysolar.com* al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder, *Positive Energy, Inc.* A Certified B CorporationTM 3209 Richards Lane Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 *505 424-1112 505%20424-1112 office 780-2738 cell* *www.positiveenergysolar.com* http://www.positiveenergysolar.com/ On 2/6/2014 3:23 PM, Dave Click wrote: All, I think that in the past, list discussions have talked about fusing of parallel battery circuits as a best practice, but it's required per 690.9 right? (text below from 2008 NEC) Also, if someone (don't look at me) really wants to use 2 parallel circuits of 12V batteries, what equipment is recommended to provide overcurrent protection? The installer is using Outback hardware (FW500?) and has two battery circuits combined in the battery enclosure and run to a Big Bus feeding the two 125A dc disconnects for two GVFX3648s. If you've read this far, this area is more your wheelhouse than mine. Thanks in advance! 690.9 Overcurrent Protection (A) Circuits and Equipment. Photovoltaic source circuit, photovoltaic output circuit, inverter output circuit, and storage battery circuit conductors and equipment shall be protected in accordance with the requirements of Article 240. Circuits connected to more than one electrical source shall have overcurrent devices located so as to provide overcurrent protection from all sources. Exception: An overcurrent device shall not be required for circuit conductors sized in accordance with 690.8(B) and located where one of the following apply: (a) There are no external sources such as parallel-connected source circuits, batteries, or backfeed from inverters. (b) The short-circuit currents from all sources do not exceed the ampacity of the conductors. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Subject: Re: Best Ground Racking?
I use a toothpick and put a tiny bit in the bolt threads. It's a little less messy that way. Blessings, Kelly On Feb 6, 2014, at 1:25 PM, Chris Mason wrote: This is the stuff. Be prepared for it to get everywhere, it's really messy (or maybe I am). http://www.amazon.com/Permatex-80078-Anti-Seize-Lubricant-Bottle/dp/B000AAJTXY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8qid=1391721840sr=8-1keywords=permatex+anti-seize+lubricant On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 5:21 PM, Chris Mason cometenergysyst...@gmail.com wrote: Probably Permatex. On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 4:55 PM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote: We use Anti- Seize Lubricant made by Permalex. I get it at the auto parts store. I have an 8 oz. bottle with built in brush on applicator. Definitely recommended on all SS hardware. I took apart another installer5's rack to add modules, and half the bolts were ruined and had to be replaced. I recommend a torque wrench too, its super easy to over5 tighten the SS hardware. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 2/6/2014 11:20 AM, Jason Andrade wrote: there are a lot of stainless bolts, I use pentrox as a anti galling compound, what do other people use? ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Chris Mason President, Comet Systems Ltd www.cometenergysystems.com Cell: 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts -- Chris Mason President, Comet Systems Ltd www.cometenergysystems.com Cell: 264.235.5670 Skype: netconcepts ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Subject: Re: Best Ground Racking?
Anti-Seize compound is readily available in twist-to-advance sticks. We have used it that way for years, and we never bother with toothpicks or brushes and we never get it on our fingers. It's by Loctite, it's called QuickStix and it's called "Silver Grade Anti-Seize". Carry one in each tool bag and more on the truck. Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder, Positive Energy, Inc. A Certified B CorporationTM 3209 Richards Lane Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell www.positiveenergysolar.com On 2/6/2014 4:58 PM, Kelly Larson wrote: I use a toothpick and put a tiny bit in the bolt threads. It's a little less messy that way. Blessings, Kelly On Feb 6, 2014, at 1:25 PM, Chris Mason wrote: This is the stuff. Be prepared for it to get everywhere, it's really messy (or maybe I am). http://www.amazon.com/Permatex-80078-Anti-Seize-Lubricant-Bottle/dp/B000AAJTXY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8qid=1391721840sr=8-1keywords=permatex+anti-seize+lubricant On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 5:21 PM, Chris Mason cometenergysyst...@gmail.com wrote: Probably Permatex. On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 4:55 PM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote: We use Anti- Seize Lubricant made by Permalex. I get it at the auto parts store. I have an 8 oz. bottle with built in brush on applicator. Definitely recommended on all SS hardware. I took apart another installer5's rack to add modules, and half the bolts were ruined and had to be replaced. I recommend a torque wrench too, its super easy to over5 tighten the SS hardware. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 2/6/2014 11:20 AM, Jason Andrade wrote: there are a lot of stainless bolts, I use pentrox as a anti galling
[RE-wrenches] Tigo
We haven't used any of these yet but I'm considering it. Anyone have any experience they can share? Thanks, Dana Dana Brandt Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC www.ecotechenergy.com d...@ecotechenergy.com 360.318.7646 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Batteryless Backup
Wrenches I did a quick search with no luck on, I believe an SMA product that provides minimal backup in a grid outage without batteries. Was I imagining this? I could not find it on their site either. Maybe it was another manufacturer. ? ! Thanks for any input. Jeremy Rodriguez, President All Solar, Inc. 1463 M Penrose Colorado 81240 719-372-3808 office 719-372-3804 fax www.asolarelectric.com Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Batteryless Backup
Hi Jeremy, look at the smaller tl series inverters from sma. It gives you a 15a outlet as backup. Its called secure power supply. On Feb 6, 2014 9:38 PM, All Solar, Inc. allso...@scswifi.net wrote: Wrenches I did a quick search with no luck on, I believe an SMA product that provides minimal backup in a grid outage without batteries. Was I imagining this? I could not find it on their site either. Maybe it was another manufacturer. ? ! Thanks for any input. Jeremy Rodriguez, President All Solar, Inc. 1463 M Penrose Colorado 81240 719-372-3808 office 719-372-3804 fax www.asolarelectric.com Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand! ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] generator stumpage
The radian works well gen sets On Feb 6, 2014 7:15 PM, toddc...@finestplanet.com wrote: hey wrenches, im working on a design for an offgrid camp and am stumped at my least favorite issue... generators. im running into the CARB (california air quality board) requirements, which have removed all the units i am interested in (like the Onan/Cummings GNAB model) from the market. the camp is super efficient and the RE system will basically be a medium sized (these days) off grid system. desired generator: propane (@ 5000' elevation) low speed (1800 rpm) open frame liquid cooled 12 to 15 kW split phase 120/240 thanks, and does anyone know offhand if the radian or magnum inverters offer generator support these days. todd Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. Sent from Finest Planet WebMail. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
