Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 690.10(C) talking points
Dan, It took me a bit of reading replies to understand the issue you are addressing. If the issue is as simple as not running 240V loads off of a panel supplied by 120V inverter output, then you have three approaches. You would expect to run off of either a pair of inverters set up for 120/240, an inverter with the same capability (Magnum AE, Radian, XW or Conext SW, etc.), or a single 120V inverter (FX/VFX, SW4024, etc.) with a step-up autotransformer. If the latter, consider running 120V only to the main distribution breaker panel, and separately running the 240V loads, either directly from the autotransformer output (a single load, such as a well pump) or a small dedicated subpanel (such as a Homeline or QO 6-12L100S) fed by the autotransformer output. Does this help? Did I address your question? Allan Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician Founder, Positive Energy, Inc. A Certified B CorporationTM 3209 Richards Lane Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 office 780-2738 cell www.positiveenergysolar.com On 3/19/2014 7:26 PM, Dave Click wrote: Dan, 690.10(C) doesn't say no. It says that if you have a single 120V inverter output connected directly for a 120/240 panel then you can't put a 240V load in the panel-- in this case you'd either have L connected to both phases of the panel or I guess you could just use half the breakers in the panel. For a 240V load it would just see 0 volts phase to phase, but for a multi-wire branch circuit with current on both legs you'd potentially overload your neutral conductor. Now when you use either a 240V inverter (or two stacked 120s) or an autotransformer between the inverter and the panel, 240V loads are fine since you have two lines 180 degrees out of phase and voila, 240V. 690.10(C) wouldn't apply to this situation since your inverter(s) would be supplying 240V (not 120) to your 1P 3W panel. DKC On 2014/3/19, 20:40, Dan Fink wrote: Esteemed Wrenches; Can anyone here help me with some simple talking points for clients installing off grid systems? 240 Well pumps hard wired to panel breakers are common, but everybody (who has even a chance of surviving up here in middle of nowhere way off grid) NEEDS a 240v welder outlet in the garage/workshop. But 690.10(C) says no. Am I missing something obvious? What do I tell these potential clients? Dan Fink, Executive Director; Otherpower Buckville Energy Consulting Buckville Publications LLC NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers 970.672.4342 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archi
Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 690.10(C) talking points
Dan, If your client is stuck on the idea of a stick welder, the 120 volt models are pretty cheesy...240V is the way to go. However, I've welded many miles of steel with a Miller 120 volt wire feed machine that does 3/16" material easy and 1/4" if the joint design is set up right. Yes, the 120 volt MIG machines are more money than the 120 volt stick welders, but they will weld 98% of everything most folks need. I power my wire feed with 2, FX 3524's set up for 120V only and have never in about 15 years now, had a problem. One FX?don't know. Bill Feather River Solar Electric 4291 Nelson St. Taylorsville, CA 95983 530.284.7849 / 6544 fax - Original Message - From: Dan Fink To: RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2014 5:40 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 690.10(C) talking points Esteemed Wrenches; Can anyone here help me with some simple talking points for clients installing off grid systems? 240 Well pumps hard wired to panel breakers are common, but everybody (who has even a chance of surviving up here in middle of nowhere way off grid) NEEDS a 240v welder outlet in the garage/workshop. But 690.10(C) says no. Am I missing something obvious? What do I tell these potential clients? Dan Fink, Executive Director; Otherpower Buckville Energy Consulting Buckville Publications LLC NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers 970.672.4342 -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 690.10(C) talking points
How often do you use a welder on a day by day basis. Run it off a suitable generator (which everyone in the middle of nowhere has anyway for back-up) John V From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Dan Fink Sent: Thursday, 20 March 2014 1:41 p.m. To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 690.10(C) talking points Esteemed Wrenches; Can anyone here help me with some simple talking points for clients installing off grid systems? 240 Well pumps hard wired to panel breakers are common, but everybody (who has even a chance of surviving up here in middle of nowhere way off grid) NEEDS a 240v welder outlet in the garage/workshop. But 690.10(C) says no. Am I missing something obvious? What do I tell these potential clients? Dan Fink, Executive Director; Otherpower Buckville Energy Consulting Buckville Publications LLC NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers 970.672.4342 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 690.10(C) talking points
Dan, 690.10(C) doesn't say no. It says that if you have a single 120V inverter output connected directly for a 120/240 panel then you can't put a 240V load in the panel-- in this case you'd either have L connected to both phases of the panel or I guess you could just use half the breakers in the panel. For a 240V load it would just see 0 volts phase to phase, but for a multi-wire branch circuit with current on both legs you'd potentially overload your neutral conductor. Now when you use either a 240V inverter (or two stacked 120s) or an autotransformer between the inverter and the panel, 240V loads are fine since you have two lines 180 degrees out of phase and voila, 240V. 690.10(C) wouldn't apply to this situation since your inverter(s) would be supplying 240V (not 120) to your 1P 3W panel. DKC On 2014/3/19, 20:40, Dan Fink wrote: Esteemed Wrenches; Can anyone here help me with some simple talking points for clients installing off grid systems? 240 Well pumps hard wired to panel breakers are common, but everybody (who has even a chance of surviving up here in middle of nowhere way off grid) NEEDS a 240v welder outlet in the garage/workshop. But 690.10(C) says no. Am I missing something obvious? What do I tell these potential clients? Dan Fink, Executive Director; Otherpower Buckville Energy Consulting Buckville Publications LLC NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers 970.672.4342 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 690.10(C) talking points
Dan, 690.10(C) says that you are "permitted" to supply single phase 3-wire 120/240 volt "service equipment" with 120 volts under the conditions specified in that article. If you are installing a 240 volt inverter (or stacking 2 120s, or using a step up transformer), 690.10(C) does not apply. Hope that helps. Kris On Wed, Mar 19, 2014 at 7:40 PM, Dan Fink wrote: > Esteemed Wrenches; > Can anyone here help me with some simple talking points for clients > installing off grid systems? 240 Well pumps hard wired to panel breakers > are common, but everybody (who has even a chance of surviving up here in > middle of nowhere way off grid) NEEDS a 240v welder outlet in the > garage/workshop. But 690.10(C) says no. > > Am I missing something obvious? What do I tell these potential clients? > > Dan Fink, > Executive Director; > Otherpower > Buckville Energy Consulting > Buckville Publications LLC > NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers > 970.672.4342 > > > > ___ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -- Shine On! Kris Schmid Legacy Solar, LLC 864 Clam Falls Trail Frederic, WI 54837 www.legacysolar.com 715-653-4295 NABCEP Certified PV Installer Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician BSEE ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Moving batteries
Ahh the joys of steel contained batteries. Are the interconnects welded? If you "own" them then you can move them. If I am going on the road w/ any battery, proper placarding is the norm but I ALWAYS cover them. Sometimes I use a tarp other times I use a "used" lumber (say for a stack of 2"x10"x 20's) tarp. these tarps come on a load/pallet of lumber. The lumber company usually throws them away. U haul trailer, flat bed or sometimes you can get your friendly scrap/junk dealer to transport them on their tilting car transport for the old batteries. $.025-.35/Lb can usually add up quickly. On Mar 19, 2014, at 8:20 PM, William Miller wrote: > Friends: > > I'm installing 12 deka FLA batteries. They're 1860 pounds each and none of > the local movers want to touch them since they're considered hazmat. > > Have any of you ever addressed this problem? > > As always, thanks in advance. > > William Miller > ___ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > t...@swnl.net www.SWNL.net > Solarwinds Northernlights >Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California > 207-832-7574 Cl. 610-517-8401 > > Blair "TUMP" May > MAINE'S CHARTER > NABCEP"Certified PV Installer" > > MAINE'S CHARTER > Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer" > ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 690.10(C) talking points
I think I'm missing something; 690.10 is part of the solar article. A 240 volt welder outlet (utility outlet, usually NEMA #6-50) isn't pertinent to solar, and is allowed anywhere as far as i know, indoors or out. Well, maybe not above the bathtub... /wk William Korthof 714.875.3576 Sustainable Solutions #956904 On Mar 19, 2014, at 5:40 PM, Dan Fink wrote: Esteemed Wrenches; Can anyone here help me with some simple talking points for clients installing off grid systems? 240 Well pumps hard wired to panel breakers are common, but everybody (who has even a chance of surviving up here in middle of nowhere way off grid) NEEDS a 240v welder outlet in the garage/workshop. But 690.10(C) says no. Am I missing something obvious? What do I tell these potential clients? Dan Fink, Executive Director; Otherpower Buckville Energy Consulting Buckville Publications LLC NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers 970.672.4342 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] NEC 690.10(C) talking points
Esteemed Wrenches; Can anyone here help me with some simple talking points for clients installing off grid systems? 240 Well pumps hard wired to panel breakers are common, but everybody (who has even a chance of surviving up here in middle of nowhere way off grid) NEEDS a 240v welder outlet in the garage/workshop. But 690.10(C) says no. Am I missing something obvious? What do I tell these potential clients? Dan Fink, Executive Director; Otherpower Buckville Energy Consulting Buckville Publications LLC NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers 970.672.4342 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Moving batteries
Friends: I'm installing 12 deka FLA batteries. They're 1860 pounds each and none of the local movers want to touch them since they're considered hazmat. Have any of you ever addressed this problem? As always, thanks in advance. William Miller ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
