Re: [RE-wrenches] Flashing vs Sealant... again (is sealant code defensible?)

[Solar Energy Solutions]

We are the McDonalds of roof penetrations. During the last 30 years we have 
literally made pincushions of the roof we have worked on. After millions of 
unflashed penetrations we have only had one leak.  Observing hundreds of Carter 
era systems we have never seen a mounting foot leak. Like Sasquatch sighting we 
have heard the stories. But from where we stand, we have seen exactly the same 
amount of both.  Geography may be a key factor.  

We have used Vulcum and Dimonic we equal success. 

We are now forced to use flashing. Oregon specialty code forces every 24" when 
within 3' of a peak or edge. Where rafters are 16"oc we are forced to install 
every 16".  Outside of 3' every 48". 

The solar industry sleeps. 





On Apr 12, 2014, at 11:03 AM, Jerry Shafer  wrote:

> Flashing only
> 
> On Apr 11, 2014 9:20 AM, "Troy Harvey"  wrote:
> 1. I'm interest in a poll of installers who are using flashings vs sealant. 
> Now that the flashing market has evolved, what are you using today? When did 
> you switch to flashings (if you did). And why not, if you still prefer 
> sealant.
> 
> 2. Is there a any code defense for sealant systems ? (L-foot sealed down to 
> shingles). Does anyone know of a scientific shootout between sealants and 
> flashings?
> 
> Here is my view: The construction industry is slow to evolve. Sealants, 
> clauks & adhesives are not trusted in general, due to the legacy of code, and 
> we have a mechanical vs. chemical industry bias. 
> 
> There is something about seeing a flashing that says, that is a "professional 
> job", it must comply with code. And yet, my experience says I'd trust a 
> 50-year silicone over a flashing that depends on gravity. Gravity should be 
> dependable right? But anyone in snow country can tell you in spring, water 
> can go uphill after ice dams form. There are high-rise buildings that use 
> "structural glazing" which is just glass and silicone. These systems are now 
> getting to be 50 years old without issue.
> 
> The cost of flashings have come down in the last few years, but so has the 
> cost per watt of installs. With 50 feet in a typical install around here that 
> is $150 in feet, lags & silicone. Or $1500 in flashings, and extra labor. 
> That can be a large part of a bid, and make you more expensive in a 
> competitive landscape. That is fine, if it adds value... but I personally 
> don't see the proven value, other than the "appearance" of code 
> defensibility. Anybody have proof?
> 
> thanks,
> 
> Troy Harvey
> -
> Principal Engineer
> Heliocentric
> 801-453-9434
> tahar...@heliocentric.org
> 
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[RE-wrenches] Setbacks for fire responder protection

[william]

Dear Colleagues:

 

I know many of you have been concerned about the impacts of new regulations
on roof-top solar intended to protect fire responders.  I have a new
scenario to offer for your consideration:

 

Around here only one city has adopted codes that require eave and ridge
setbacks to provide firefighter access for residential rooftop PV.  The
standard used for this city and for others adopting commercial restrictions
had been a draft proposal presented by Cal-Fire that has been circulating
for a while.  A copy of that is on our web site.  

 

This city has upped the ante by increasing the setback such that the
measurement starts not at the gable eave but at the gable framed wall.  This
typically subtracts another 24" of module space.  It appears that the
justification for this more restrictive interpretation is language in the
2013 California Fire Code offers some suggestion that gable eaves are not
structurally sound, although this is not stated.  Here is the language:

 

The access pathway shall be located at a structurally strong location on the
building capable of supporting the live load of fire fighters accessing the
roof.

 

I see no evidence in the language to support the notion that a gable eave
overhang is not structurally sound.  It is certainly strong enough to allow
roofers and other trades people to traverse without concern.  I would
suggest that any portion of a framed roof can become unsound if the
underpinnings are being burned away.

 

I think to disallow eaves as part of access paths based on the language is
taking this too far.  Comments?

 

Changing subjects slightly:  I have always wondered why we must preserve
access to both sides of a E-W ridge.  The concept  I have heard is that
firefighters may need to open the roof at the highest point to let out
smoke.  I have never seen a partition below a ridge in the attic that would
prevent smoke from wafting sideways 36" to a hole cut on the north side of
the ridge versus the south side.  Does anyone know of a reason that the
south side of the ridge needs to be kept clear when the north side is clear?

 

The material I refer to can be found here:
http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Resources/_Resources.html

 

William Miller

 

 

 

 

Gradient Cap_mini
Lic 773985
  millersolar.com
805-438-5600

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Setbacks for fire responder protection

[Dan Fink]

Hello WIlliam;

I have always wondered about  gable eaves as access pathways too, but
haven't said anything so as not attract attention from AHJs ;-) I don't
have a problem with walking on gable eaves if they are sturdy enough, and
at least you'd know there's no fire directly underneath you.

Here in Colorado both the city of Golden and city of Boulder Fire Marshals
have taken different but very proactive stances in granting exceptions to
the setbacks. In Boulder it was estimated that over 60% of existing
installations did not comply with IFC2012 setback rules. If anyone would
like a copy of Boulder's exceptions / compromise document and graphics of
examples contact me off list and I'll send it.  Golden's approach was
Alternate Materials and Methods (which Boulder couldn't pass) that allows a
PV installer to demonstrate alternate paths of access.

As for venting the other side of the roof, I believe the logic is that the
vent location depends greatly on wind direction and the layout of the
building internally. Venting the wrong side on a windy day could be
ineffectual.

Many fire departments are training in and moving towards techniques other
than vertical ventilation (because it is so dangerous), but there will
always a need for some roof access.

Cheers for Boulder Fire Marshal Dave Lowrey for being realistic and
flexible.

Dan Fink,
Executive Director;
Otherpower
Buckville Energy Consulting
Buckville Publications LLC
NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
970.672.4342




On Sat, Apr 12, 2014 at 1:24 AM,  wrote:

> Dear Colleagues:
>
>
>
> I know many of you have been concerned about the impacts of new
> regulations on roof-top solar intended to protect fire responders.  I have
> a new scenario to offer for your consideration:
>
>
>
> Around here only one city has adopted codes that require eave and ridge
> setbacks to provide firefighter access for residential rooftop PV.  The
> standard used for this city and for others adopting commercial restrictions
> had been a draft proposal presented by Cal-Fire that has been circulating
> for a while.  A copy of that is on our web site.
>
>
>
> This city has upped the ante by increasing the setback such that the
> measurement starts not at the gable eave but at the gable framed wall.
> This typically subtracts another 24" of module space.  It appears that the
> justification for this more restrictive interpretation is language in the
> 2013 California Fire Code offers some suggestion that gable eaves are not
> structurally sound, although this is not stated.  Here is the language:
>
>
>
> *The access pathway shall be located at a structurally strong location on
> the building capable of supporting the live load of fire fighters accessing
> the roof.*
>
>
>
> I see no evidence in the language to support the notion that a gable eave
> overhang is not structurally sound.  It is certainly strong enough to allow
> roofers and other trades people to traverse without concern.  I would
> suggest that any portion of a framed roof can become unsound if the
> underpinnings are being burned away.
>
>
>
> I think to disallow eaves as part of access paths based on the language is
> taking this too far.  Comments?
>
>
>
> Changing subjects slightly:  I have always wondered why we must preserve
> access to both sides of a E-W ridge.  The concept  I have heard is that
> firefighters may need to open the roof at the highest point to let out
> smoke.  I have never seen a partition below a ridge in the attic that would
> prevent smoke from wafting sideways 36" to a hole cut on the north side of
> the ridge versus the south side.  Does anyone know of a reason that the
> south side of the ridge needs to be kept clear when the north side is clear?
>
>
>
> The material I refer to can be found here:
> http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/Resources/_Resources.html
>
>
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [image: Gradient Cap_mini]
> Lic 773985
> millersolar.com 
> 805-438-5600
>
>
>
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[RE-wrenches] Propane block heaters

[Mac Lewis]

Hello wrenches,

Does anyone have a good recommendation for a propane block heater product?

Thanks

-- 



Mac Lewis

*"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates*
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Propane block heaters

[penobscotsolar]

Mac,
My only recommendation is that if they are off grid or concerned about
consumption not to use one. We have many off grid systems installed in
Maine (very cold weather) that have generators with block heaters
which have been disabled. They start and run just fine without the
heater.

Daryl


> Hello wrenches,
>
> Does anyone have a good recommendation for a propane block heater product?
>
> Thanks
>
> --
>
>
>
> Mac Lewis
>
> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates*
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[RE-wrenches] Flashings vs Sealants

[Tom Lane]

I am only going to refer to primarily to asphalt shingles . PLEASE read the 
label on the sealant you are using . Our company has used flexible polymer 
rubber - based sealants rated for -40 F to 200 F that have good UV resistance 
by Ruscoe www.ruscoe.com that make these rubber based sealants in many colors . 
They are a high viscosity 1/10 gallon tubes like the BPS-HVAC 1/10 that are a 
permanent sealant on metal roofs and NEVER completely harden . They are 
compatible with asphalt shingles . Read the label on your sealant , 
polyurethane tripolymer sealants while excellent sealants ARE NOT COMPATIBLE 
WITH ASPHALT SHINGLES . Rusoe will sell direct ( 800 - 293- 8148 ) . We have 
thousands of attachments to asphalt shingles each year WITHOUT any flashings 
and never get a leak with Ruscoe and offer all our customers an insurance 
guarantee against damage to the roof and contents of the home . We have been 
installing since 1977 at our company . Ruscoe has a unique product that is 
inexpe
 nsive when you buy 12 cases or more especially of 12 tubes that will be 
delivered by a freight line . Gator Tom

Sent from my iPad
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[RE-wrenches] Myths, Schemes and Scams request

[Allan Sindelar]

  
  
Fellow Wrenches,
Last year I prepared an hour's presentation for our local Solar
Fiesta on "Energy Myths, Schemes and Scams". I covered mostly PV and
the solar industry, with a few slides about the physics of wind and
those cute spinny yard-art things called VAWTs.  I also hit on "it
takes more energy to make a PV panel than it will ever produce", the
limitations of 25-year module warranties, "free energy generators",
James McKirdy, lunar modules, and modules with fraudulent listings.
This was what I was able to pull together.

The workshop was popular and I have been asked to give it again in a
couple of weeks. I'm looking for any suggestions that you may have
for new or additional material to update the presentation. Any ideas
are welcome, especially if you can provide links to good stories and
slide materials. This is for a general non-technical audience, but I
have the freedom to go in any direction I wish. So I'd like to be
more than just entertaining, but make points about value over price,
using local installers with knowledge and experience, etc. 

Beside my appreciation for the material, I'll offer in return to
share an editable version of the presentation for your own use
(although it's a 14 meg PowerPoint file at present).

Thank you in advance for your suggestions of anything that gets your
blood boiling, that would be funny if it wasn't giving PV and clean
energy a bad name.
Allan
-- 
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
Allan Sindelar
  al...@positiveenergysolar.com
  NABCEP Certified PV
Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
A Certified
B CorporationTM
505 780-2738 cell


 
  

  

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Flashings vs Sealants

[William Dorsett]

I'm like Tom and Ray, it is hard to avoid shingle damage on all the
connections involved with flashing on asphalt shingles, and while I've tried
QuickMount flashings, I'm confident that L-legs with (and I use
polyurethane, and am not stingy with it.) sealant are quite adequate.
Especially with roofs with good slope, I'm going back to what I've done for
a very long time with zero problems.

Bill Dorsett
Sunwrights

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Tom Lane
Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 7:56 AM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flashings vs Sealants

I am only going to refer to primarily to asphalt shingles . PLEASE read the
label on the sealant you are using . Our company has used flexible polymer
rubber - based sealants rated for -40 F to 200 F that have good UV
resistance by Ruscoe www.ruscoe.com that make these rubber based sealants in
many colors . They are a high viscosity 1/10 gallon tubes like the BPS-HVAC
1/10 that are a permanent sealant on metal roofs and NEVER completely harden
. They are compatible with asphalt shingles . Read the label on your sealant
, polyurethane tripolymer sealants while excellent sealants ARE NOT
COMPATIBLE WITH ASPHALT SHINGLES . Rusoe will sell direct ( 800 - 293- 8148
) . We have thousands of attachments to asphalt shingles each year WITHOUT
any flashings and never get a leak with Ruscoe and offer all our customers
an insurance guarantee against damage to the roof and contents of the home .
We have been installing since 1977 at our company . Ruscoe has a unique
product that is inexpe  nsive when you buy 12 cases or more especially of 12
tubes that will be delivered by a freight line . Gator Tom

Sent from my iPad
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Flashings vs Sealants

[Jerry Shafer]

You might want to look at sunmodo they work well and will not leak check it
out. Some sealants have solvents that eat away shingles over time and can
create a bridle shingle that can crack. Roof warranty may be expected when
direct contact sealant is used on shingles should check with manufactures.
On Apr 12, 2014 12:31 PM, "William Dorsett"  wrote:

> I'm like Tom and Ray, it is hard to avoid shingle damage on all the
> connections involved with flashing on asphalt shingles, and while I've
> tried
> QuickMount flashings, I'm confident that L-legs with (and I use
> polyurethane, and am not stingy with it.) sealant are quite adequate.
> Especially with roofs with good slope, I'm going back to what I've done for
> a very long time with zero problems.
>
> Bill Dorsett
> Sunwrights
>
> -Original Message-
> From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
> [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Tom Lane
> Sent: Saturday, April 12, 2014 7:56 AM
> To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Flashings vs Sealants
>
> I am only going to refer to primarily to asphalt shingles . PLEASE read the
> label on the sealant you are using . Our company has used flexible polymer
> rubber - based sealants rated for -40 F to 200 F that have good UV
> resistance by Ruscoe www.ruscoe.com that make these rubber based sealants
> in
> many colors . They are a high viscosity 1/10 gallon tubes like the BPS-HVAC
> 1/10 that are a permanent sealant on metal roofs and NEVER completely
> harden
> . They are compatible with asphalt shingles . Read the label on your
> sealant
> , polyurethane tripolymer sealants while excellent sealants ARE NOT
> COMPATIBLE WITH ASPHALT SHINGLES . Rusoe will sell direct ( 800 - 293-
> 8148
> ) . We have thousands of attachments to asphalt shingles each year WITHOUT
> any flashings and never get a leak with Ruscoe and offer all our customers
> an insurance guarantee against damage to the roof and contents of the home
> .
> We have been installing since 1977 at our company . Ruscoe has a unique
> product that is inexpe  nsive when you buy 12 cases or more especially of
> 12
> tubes that will be delivered by a freight line . Gator Tom
>
> Sent from my iPad
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Myths, Schemes and Scams request

[Dave Click]

If you also have the local electricians selling the kvar units as 
surefire ways to save 30% on your electric bill, I'd nominate that as 
myth/scheme/scam, though I hope most of those resellers are doing so 
only because they're naive. There was also some absurd company a few 
years ago which was selling a "3000W" module that looked suspiciously 
like a 200W module yet could produce a steady 3kW even without any load 
and even while in the shade. They had the clamp-on meter to prove it, so 
maybe they're still selling off area code exclusivity off for a mere 
$50,000 initial deposit.


Screen-shots from this would be fun-- one of the ubiquitous "$50 for 
this complete guide to unplugging from grid by making your own solar panels"

http://www.powerfreedom.com/System/

The YellowBook ad from a few years ago:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hpHxEhO_DQ

I don't know where I got this picture-- from one of the "make your own 
solar panel" things online. Lovely aesthetics!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/bxhl3q6hrr9z5sp/DIY%20PV.png



On 2014/4/12, 16:47, Allan Sindelar wrote:

Fellow Wrenches,
Last year I prepared an hour's presentation for our local Solar Fiesta 
on "Energy Myths, Schemes and Scams". I covered mostly PV and the 
solar industry, with a few slides about the physics of wind and those 
cute spinny yard-art things called VAWTs.  I also hit on "it takes 
more energy to make a PV panel than it will ever produce", the 
limitations of 25-year module warranties, "free energy generators", 
James McKirdy, lunar modules, and modules with fraudulent listings. 
This was what I was able to pull together.


The workshop was popular and I have been asked to give it again in a 
couple of weeks. I'm looking for any suggestions that you may have for 
new or additional material to update the presentation. Any ideas are 
welcome, especially if you can provide links to good stories and slide 
materials. This is for a general non-technical audience, but I have 
the freedom to go in any direction I wish. So I'd like to be more than 
just entertaining, but make points about value over price, using local 
installers with knowledge and experience, etc.


Beside my appreciation for the material, I'll offer in return to share 
an editable version of the presentation for your own use (although 
it's a 14 meg PowerPoint file at present).


Thank you in advance for your suggestions of anything that gets your 
blood boiling, that would be funny if it wasn't giving PV and clean 
energy a bad name.

Allan
--

*Allan Sindelar*
_Allan@positiveenergysolar.com_ 
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), *Positive Energy, Inc.*

A Certified B Corporation^TM
*505 780-2738 cell*



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Propane block heaters

[Kevin Pegg]

Hi Mac, 
 
We have used tiny RV-type propane hot water heaters (ie 1-2 gallon) situated at 
base of generator, plumbed into the coolant system with a thermostat control 
and it thermosiphons. One site has a 30 kW Kohler genset with 6 cyl GM 
industrial engine and this has been in place for 5-6 years and works reliably. 
 
Kevin

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of Mac Lewis
Sent: April 12, 2014 6:46 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Propane block heaters


Hello wrenches, 

Does anyone have a good recommendation for a propane block heater product?

Thanks


-- 





Mac Lewis



"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates

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