Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

[Dan Fink]

Jay' about 2 gallons every 40 days.

Dan Fink
Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
Executive Director, Buckville Energy
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
NABCEP PV Associate

970.672.4342




On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 10:50 AM Jay  wrote:

> Hi Dan and Kienan
>
> I’m curious how much water you are adding monthly?
>
> Jay
> Peltz Power.
>
> On Nov 22, 2018, at 7:08 AM, Dan Fink  wrote:
>
> Wrenches; I have run my house on 12 volt NiFe batteries for 3 years now. I
> was going to write a long essay, but Kienen beat me to it. It's an
> excellent analysis, I agree with each of his bullet points.
>
> All I'll add is that the batteries charge with decent efficiency up to 80%
> SOC. To get that last 20%, they do require 1.65 volts per cell, which most
> standalone inverter / chargers won't do off a generator - they freak out at
> a bit above 15v and shut down.
>
> I've used 2 tactics to get that last 20% when using a generator, and I
> have experienced the same issue that Kienen mentioned -- they need to get a
> nice strong, charge cycle every so often or else they will behave like a
> heavily sulfated FLA, but of course the NiFes don't sulfate.
>
> 1) after charging to 80% SOC with the generator, both of my charge
> controllers (outback and midnite) have no problem being programmed to a
> 16.5v absorb cycle, I set absorb at 6 hours, on a sunny day that does the
> trick here.
>
> 2) If no long, sunny day available and you are forced to use a generator
> and charger that won't let you get to 16.5v, remove one cell from the
> series string, and charge the other 9 cells. Then put the one you removed
> back in the string, and remove one of the ones you discharged, and
> generator charge again. Then re-assemble back into a 10-cell string. I've
> only had to do this a couple times.
>
> In general, I'm happy with these batteries, and happy to never have to
> deal with sulfation again, and remember I have the worst case scenario here
> with a 12v bank, undersized because of the greater DOD capability of NiFes,
> a refrigerator that surges very hard, and a magnum inverter that goes wonky
> with big surges at low voltages.
>
> I would sell Iron Edison NiFes to a client...but unless they are a special
> sort of off-grid 12v person, I'd only do 48v because of the surge issue.
>
>
> Dan Fink
> Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
> IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
> ~ PV Installation Professional
> ~ Small Wind Installer
> Executive Director, Buckville Energy
> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
> NABCEP PV Associate
>
> 970.672.4342
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 11:35 AM  wrote:
>
>> Hi Guys, I have a potential customer inquiring about installing a pre
>> packaged Iron Edison system.. I recall hearing strange stories about Ni-Fe
>> batteries but don't recall the specifics. I have done a few searches with
>> mixed results.. And have friends advising I run like a Rabbit.. Thought I'd
>> run it by you folks for an update..
>> Thanks, and Happy Turkey Day.
>>
>> db
>>
>>
>> Dan Brown
>> Foxfire Energy Corp.
>> Renewable Energy Systems
>> (802)-483-2564
>> www.Foxfire-Energy.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

[Kienan Maxfield]

Thanks Dan. You mentioned some excellent pointers.

One advantage to using a 24 or 48 V system is that you don't have as bad of 
compatibility issues. Depending on the brand (and therefore the maximum 
charging voltage and maximum voltage tolerance specifications) you can flex the 
number of cells per string. You can't really do it with a 12 V battery because 
10 cells in series is too high for a lot of equipment, and 9 cells is too low, 
but 9.5 cells would be just right for many brands. With a 24V system, you can 
use 19 cells, and with a 48V system then you can choose between 38, 39, and 40 
cells depending on the equipment you're using.

I am using an Outback Radian inverter, and the charge voltage for a 40 cell 
battery would actually void my warranty if I were to fully charge it with the 
inverter still connected, so because of my equipment, I use 38 cell strings. 
Because of this string length, I can fully charge my batteries from a generator 
through the inverter if I wanted, but because I have finally added enough PV, I 
never waste the fuel to do it. I have heard that the XW inverters can actually 
handle the full 40 cell voltage so if you're doing your design around Ni-Fe 
batteries then that might be a better choice.



Jay,

As far as water use... my battery powers a micro-grid and my parent's 
commercial building so my water usage does not accurately reflect what a house 
may use but we could do some math and estimate it


  *   My battery is 2000 Ah @ 48V (nominal) and my PV is 18 kW, I have a 7.2 kW 
Bergey windmill on a 160' tower, and I have to run my 22 kW generator for a few 
hours perhaps 10  to 15 days per year.

  1.  I have heard that with water consumption is more closely related to PV 
size than battery size (I am not sure about that). I use roughly somewhere 
around 20 gallons per month. If you were to combine all my power sources, 
perhaps it would be fair to say that it's the equivalent of having 20 kW of PV 
so I would estimate that you will use 1 gallon of water every month per kW of 
PV.
  2.  If we go by battery size, I use a gallon per 100 Ah @ 48V. So if you have 
a 500 Ah, 48V battery then maybe it would use 5 gallons per month. If you have 
a 400 Ah, 24V battery then perhaps it might use 2 gallons per month.

  *   I think that #1 above would be more accurate. Perhaps if I were to 
calculate out my Wh/month of charging then that would be even more accurate 
but I don't think I'll do that today. These gas differently than Lead Acid 
batteries... Lead acid batteries only gas when you charge them above a certain 
voltage (the latter part of the charge) but Ni-Fe batteries gas during all 
phases of the charge cycle. That's probably a large factor of why they use more 
water than Lead Acid batteries.
  *   I would be really interested to hear what other's water usage might be. 
Dan, have you monitored your water usage at all?
  *   Dan, do you have the auto watering system? Iron Edison did a recall a 
couple years ago on their auto watering system because it could concentrate 
hydrogen so I ended up waiting a long time for mine. Now that I finally have 
it, I can just hook up the pump and watch it go. It is so much easier.

Thanks,
Kienan



Maxfield Solar
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com
(801) 477-0-SUN (477-0786)
(801) 631-5584 (Cell)

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of Jay 

Sent: Thursday, November 22, 2018 8:42 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

Hi Dan and Kienan

I’m curious how much water you are adding monthly?

Jay
Peltz Power.

On Nov 22, 2018, at 7:08 AM, Dan Fink 
mailto:danbo...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Wrenches; I have run my house on 12 volt NiFe batteries for 3 years now. I was 
going to write a long essay, but Kienen beat me to it. It's an excellent 
analysis, I agree with each of his bullet points.

All I'll add is that the batteries charge with decent efficiency up to 80% SOC. 
To get that last 20%, they do require 1.65 volts per cell, which most 
standalone inverter / chargers won't do off a generator - they freak out at a 
bit above 15v and shut down.

I've used 2 tactics to get that last 20% when using a generator, and I have 
experienced the same issue that Kienen mentioned -- they need to get a nice 
strong, charge cycle every so often or else they will behave like a heavily 
sulfated FLA, but of course the NiFes don't sulfate.

1) after charging to 80% SOC with the generator, both of my charge controllers 
(outback and midnite) have no problem being programmed to a 16.5v absorb cycle, 
I set absorb at 6 hours, on a sunny day that does the trick here.

2) If no long, sunny day available and you are forced to use a generator and 
charger that won't let you get to 16.5v, remove one cell from the series 
string, and charge the other 9 cells. Then put the one you removed back in the 
string, and remove one of the ones you discharged, and generator charge again. 
Then 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM

[jay]

Hi Dan,

Curious about your statement on no EQ for AGM.
FullRiver, Rolls and many others have a EQ or sometimes called  "conditioning 
charge” or something similar, that is recommended for specific situations.
I am not saying that all AGM can/should have a EQ/conditioning charge.  Some 
can, some can’t,  OEM/model specific. 


For example I was given the following info from Full River  ( 400-6 model) if 
the batteries are showing signs of low capacity.  While they mention this low 
capacity situation in the manual, they don’t list the following info.  I had to 
call them to get it.

For 48v battery:
Charge to 60v
4-6 hrs 
Charge first thing in the am
3 days in a row
1 x year 

Jay

Peltz Power


> On Nov 22, 2018, at 8:23 AM, Dan Fink  wrote:
> 
> All;  I forgot to note that with the AGMs a full equalization that could 
> temporarily stave off problems across the massively paralleled small-capacity 
> batteries is not possible. 
> 
> I would probably spend a couple hours, no more, load testing it while 
> watching on a thermal imager. I don't have the luxury of a Fluke battery 
> tester. 
> 
> I would show the customer why it was designed incorrectly, show the test 
> results and FLIR photos, and walk away. I would never take on the job of 
> battery replacement in this situationyou will be the loser who "wrecked 
> his system."
> 
> 
> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018, 05:00 Ray mailto:r...@solarray.com> 
> wrote:
> Regardless of the Amazing Batcap 30 yr claims debunked by Dan,  a system 
> wired in the manner described (5 batteries in parallel, then series 
> connecting the sets of 5 for 48 v) is just not going to charge and discharge 
> evenly.  Its violated the no more than 4 parallel strings rule, so I'm 
> surprised it lasted even 5 years.My guess is that some of the 
> batteries are toast and some may have a bit of life in them, since they were 
> so grossly imbalanced, so a neighbor might be able to use a few of the best 
> ones for a couple more years. Ultimately the rule in off grid solar is 
> "Batteries are the Weakest Link".  The customer is not going to have a decent 
> experience until they replace that mess with a properly sized and wired 
> battery bank from a reputable manufacturer.
> 
> I won't take on new clients if we can't get the system up to snuff.  I don't 
> need those oh so predictable calls that the power is off again.  
> 
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
> On 11/21/18 1:06 AM, Dan Fink wrote:
>> Hello All; I would question the client about the origin of this battery 
>> bank. New, used, how long in storage and in service, etc. If he bought these 
>> new, that's a very expensive battery bank!
>> 
>> Usually when I've run into banks of massively parallel, low amp-hour sealed 
>> lead acid batteries, the origin was "a great surplus deal on a whole bunch 
>> of batteries from wheelchairs/UPS units/manufacturer overrun etc."
>> 
>> My BS meter on the manufacturer Batcap was triggered by a few things
>> 
>> -The company is focused on selling audiophiles xxxscratch thatxxx punks with 
>> car stereos so loud they set off car alarms 6 spots down. They need lots of 
>> amps right now to thump that bass.
>> 
>> - The company name Batcap targets the capacitor boost market for this 
>> application, but actually a dedicated battery is a great idea, as it would 
>> recharge quickly from the (often up-sized) car alternator. But some folks 
>> seem to think the name implies there's a capacitor involved. There isn't. 
>> Sneaky language in the company name.
>> 
>> -  Sealed, low internal resistance, 100-125 amp-hours. Sounds like a stock 
>> AGM to me, compared to a VRSLA.
>> 
>> - Spec sheet contains grammatical errors that indicate the writer does not 
>> speak English as a first language.
>> 
>> - "Solar" seems to have been added to the website and battery label stickers 
>> as an afterthoughtand 30 years cycle life in a solar application? Has 
>> Batcap been around for 30 years? Sounds like somebody importing Asian AGMs 
>> and sticking them with new stickers.
>> 
>> DAN FINK
>> Buckville Energy Consulting, Box Prairie CO 970-672-4342
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018, 23:28 Mick Abraham >  wrote:
>> Hello, Drake & All~
>> 
>> Drake described his service dilemma about batteries bought elsewhere & 
>> whether to correct the original hinky pack wiring (copied below). My reply 
>> below may seem cynical & I may seem too eager to declare the existing 
>> battery as: "Failed". Call me jaded.
>> 
>> Mick's $0.02 is: If there's no amp-hour monitor in the system, I suggest you 
>> first try to persuade the homeowner to buy a metering shunt & a modest 
>> amp-hour meter such as the Tri-Metric--which could be used to measure & 
>> display the battery bank's amp-hour capacity. If the client won't approve 
>> that expenditure (& hourly labor for explanations), the service tech is 
>> hamstrung. Nobody can measure the health of a battery bank by just 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Insolation calc anyone ;)

[jay]

HI Bruce,

OB specifies 2000 watts STC max for the FM-80 at 24v.  


Gotta say I've never measured 3X solar irradiance, impressive.

jay
peltz power

> On Nov 22, 2018, at 7:37 AM, Solar  wrote:
> 
> I live in Northern MN and we get very cold days (-50F +) and very crisp clear 
> days when it’s this cold. I’ve seen 1333 WM2 on the same plane as my array 
> with snow reflecting sun light. Using the daystar irradiance meter. I am at 
> 1400’ so your increased elevation with very cold temps, snow and edge of 
> cloud could maybe cause it. Maybe a calculation of extremes could give you an 
> idea. Rearrange the formula and get the irradiance needed to cause this high 
> of watts. 
> 
> Jesse Dahl
> 
> NABCEP PV Installation Professional
> IBEW Local 292 - Electrician 
> Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Nov 22, 2018, at 12:10 AM,  >  > wrote:
> 
>> Compadres,
>> 
>> I have 4 identical arrays of 3 strings of 3 Solarworld SW 245 mono (2010 
>> model) to FM80s. When designing, not exceeding 150 voc was critical. No 
>> record temp data available. Location ~ 4,000' Pacific Northwest. Recently 
>> replaced an FM80 with 6 blown FETs showing max power at 3075 watts! This 
>> from a 2205 watt array into a 24 volt battery. Max historical voc is ~120. 
>> My guess at record low temp is -10F. tc%/ºC MPP doesn't get anywhere close. 
>> What would the WM2 need to be in order to achieve 3075 watts on a 2205 watt 
>> array? BTW, 2 of the four original chargers are still working fine and one 
>> of them also shows 3075 watts max power. Edge of cloud effect against snow 
>> field at bottom of array?
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> Bruce Fiero-RMI
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> "Energizing the Rogue Valley"
>> 
>> 4115 S Pacific Hwy
>> Medford, OR 97501
>> 
>> P: 541.535.3965
>> F: 541.512.0061
>> E: br...@willpowerelect.com 
>> W: Willpower Electric, LLC  
>> 
>> CCB 191852
>> Oregon Electrical Contractor C681
>> NABCEP Certified Solar (PV) Installer 031409-38
>> DUNS 191470363 
>> Energy Trust of Oregon Trade Ally Solar (PV) Installation & Energy Efficient 
>> Commercial Lighting Programs  
>> 
>>  
>> **This email may contain information that is privileged, confidential, or 
>> otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the 
>> addressee, or if it appears that you have received this email in error, 
>> please advise me immediately by reply email, keep the contents confidential, 
>> and immediately delete the message and any attachments from your system. 
>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Insolation calc anyone ;)

[Jerry Shafer]

Bruce, Wrenches
Your case is interesting because everything was operating  and in place but
the range is tighter and only has 3 modules connected per string.
In Hawaii we recorded close to 3000 watts m2, during a commissioning of a
100 k Satcon inverter had 3 equal conbiners, with only one combiner on we
clipped the inverter at just over 100 KWAC on the display. Iradiance meter
went out of range. In northern California had over 2000 watts m2 and poped
the inverters with over volts. Edge of cloud, cold temps, higher elevations
can really be an issue for so called safe zone.
Jerry

On Nov 21, 2018 10:11 PM,  wrote:

Compadres,

I have 4 identical arrays of 3 strings of 3 Solarworld SW 245 mono (2010
model) to FM80s. When designing, not exceeding 150 voc was critical. No
record temp data available. Location ~ 4,000' Pacific Northwest. Recently
replaced an FM80 with 6 blown FETs showing max power at 3075 watts! This
from a 2205 watt array into a 24 volt battery. Max historical voc is ~120.
My guess at record low temp is -10F. tc%/ºC MPP doesn't get anywhere close.
What would the WM2 need to be in order to achieve 3075 watts on a 2205 watt
array? BTW, 2 of the four original chargers are still working fine and one
of them also shows 3075 watts max power. Edge of cloud effect against snow
field at bottom of array?

Cheers,

Bruce Fiero-RMI


*"**Energizing the Rogue Valley"*

4115 S Pacific Hwy
*Medford, OR 97501*

*P:* 541.535.3965
*F:* 541.512.0061
*E:* br...@willpowerelect.com
*W:* Willpower Electric, LLC 

*CCB **191852*
*Oregon Electrical Contractor **C681*
*NABCEP Certified Solar (PV) Installer 031409-38*
*DUNS* *191470363*
*Energy Trust of Oregon Trade Ally **Solar (PV) Installation & Energy
Efficient Commercial Lighting Programs  *


***This email may contain information that is privileged, confidential, or
otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the
addressee, or if it appears that you have received this email in error,
please advise me immediately by reply email, keep the contents
confidential, and immediately delete the message and any attachments from
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

[Jay]

Hi Dan and Kienan 

I’m curious how much water you are adding monthly?  

Jay
Peltz Power. 

> On Nov 22, 2018, at 7:08 AM, Dan Fink  wrote:
> 
> Wrenches; I have run my house on 12 volt NiFe batteries for 3 years now. I 
> was going to write a long essay, but Kienen beat me to it. It's an excellent 
> analysis, I agree with each of his bullet points.
> 
> All I'll add is that the batteries charge with decent efficiency up to 80% 
> SOC. To get that last 20%, they do require 1.65 volts per cell, which most 
> standalone inverter / chargers won't do off a generator - they freak out at a 
> bit above 15v and shut down.
> 
> I've used 2 tactics to get that last 20% when using a generator, and I have 
> experienced the same issue that Kienen mentioned -- they need to get a nice 
> strong, charge cycle every so often or else they will behave like a heavily 
> sulfated FLA, but of course the NiFes don't sulfate.
> 
> 1) after charging to 80% SOC with the generator, both of my charge 
> controllers (outback and midnite) have no problem being programmed to a 16.5v 
> absorb cycle, I set absorb at 6 hours, on a sunny day that does the trick 
> here.
> 
> 2) If no long, sunny day available and you are forced to use a generator and 
> charger that won't let you get to 16.5v, remove one cell from the series 
> string, and charge the other 9 cells. Then put the one you removed back in 
> the string, and remove one of the ones you discharged, and generator charge 
> again. Then re-assemble back into a 10-cell string. I've only had to do this 
> a couple times.
> 
> In general, I'm happy with these batteries, and happy to never have to deal 
> with sulfation again, and remember I have the worst case scenario here with a 
> 12v bank, undersized because of the greater DOD capability of NiFes, a 
> refrigerator that surges very hard, and a magnum inverter that goes wonky 
> with big surges at low voltages.
> 
> I would sell Iron Edison NiFes to a client...but unless they are a special 
> sort of off-grid 12v person, I'd only do 48v because of the surge issue. 
> 
> 
> Dan Fink
> Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: 
> ~ PV Installation Professional
> ~ Small Wind Installer
> Executive Director, Buckville Energy
> NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
> NABCEP PV Associate
> 
> 970.672.4342
> 
>  
> 
> 
>> On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 11:35 AM  wrote:
>> Hi Guys, I have a potential customer inquiring about installing a pre 
>> packaged Iron Edison system.. I recall hearing strange stories about Ni-Fe 
>> batteries but don't recall the specifics. I have done a few searches with 
>> mixed results.. And have friends advising I run like a Rabbit.. Thought I'd 
>> run it by you folks for an update..
>> Thanks, and Happy Turkey Day.
>> 
>> db
>> 
>> 
>> Dan Brown
>> Foxfire Energy Corp.
>> Renewable Energy Systems
>> (802)-483-2564
>> www.Foxfire-Energy.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Batt Cap AGM

[Dan Fink]

All;  I forgot to note that with the AGMs a full equalization that could
temporarily stave off problems across the massively paralleled
small-capacity batteries is not possible.

I would probably spend a couple hours, no more, load testing it while
watching on a thermal imager. I don't have the luxury of a Fluke battery
tester.

I would show the customer why it was designed incorrectly, show the test
results and FLIR photos, and walk away. I would never take on the job of
battery replacement in this situationyou will be the loser who "wrecked
his system."


On Wed, Nov 21, 2018, 05:00 Ray  Regardless of the Amazing Batcap 30 yr claims debunked by Dan,  a system
> wired in the manner described (5 batteries in parallel, then series
> connecting the sets of 5 for 48 v) is just not going to charge and
> discharge evenly.  Its violated the no more than 4 parallel strings rule,
> so I'm surprised it lasted even 5 years.  My guess is that some of the
> batteries are toast and some may have a bit of life in them, since they
> were so grossly imbalanced, so a neighbor might be able to use a few of the
> best ones for a couple more years. Ultimately the rule in off grid solar is
> "Batteries are the Weakest Link".  The customer is not going to have a
> decent experience until they replace that mess with a properly sized and
> wired battery bank from a reputable manufacturer.
>
> I won't take on new clients if we can't get the system up to snuff.  I
> don't need those oh so predictable calls that the power is off again.
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 11/21/18 1:06 AM, Dan Fink wrote:
>
> Hello All; I would question the client about the origin of this battery
> bank. New, used, how long in storage and in service, etc. If he bought
> these new, that's a very expensive battery bank!
>
> Usually when I've run into banks of massively parallel, low amp-hour
> sealed lead acid batteries, the origin was "a great surplus deal on a whole
> bunch of batteries from wheelchairs/UPS units/manufacturer overrun etc."
>
> My BS meter on the manufacturer Batcap was triggered by a few things
>
> -The company is focused on selling audiophiles xxxscratch thatxxx punks
> with car stereos so loud they set off car alarms 6 spots down. They need
> lots of amps right now to thump that bass.
>
> - The company name Batcap targets the capacitor boost market for this
> application, but actually a dedicated battery is a great idea, as it would
> recharge quickly from the (often up-sized) car alternator. But some folks
> seem to think the name implies there's a capacitor involved. There isn't.
> Sneaky language in the company name.
>
> -  Sealed, low internal resistance, 100-125 amp-hours. Sounds like a stock
> AGM to me, compared to a VRSLA.
>
> - Spec sheet contains grammatical errors that indicate the writer does not
> speak English as a first language.
>
> - "Solar" seems to have been added to the website and battery label
> stickers as an afterthoughtand 30 years cycle life in a solar
> application? Has Batcap been around for 30 years? Sounds like somebody
> importing Asian AGMs and sticking them with new stickers.
>
> DAN FINK
> Buckville Energy Consulting, Box Prairie CO 970-672-4342
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 20, 2018, 23:28 Mick Abraham 
>> Hello, Drake & All~
>>
>> Drake described his service dilemma about batteries bought elsewhere &
>> whether to correct the original hinky pack wiring (copied below). My reply
>> below may seem cynical & I may seem too eager to declare the existing
>> battery as: "Failed". Call me jaded.
>>
>> Mick's $0.02 is: If there's no amp-hour monitor in the system, I suggest
>> you first try to persuade the homeowner to buy a metering shunt & a modest
>> amp-hour meter such as the Tri-Metric--which could be used to measure &
>> display the battery bank's amp-hour capacity. If the client won't approve
>> that expenditure (& hourly labor for explanations), the service tech is
>> hamstrung. Nobody can measure the health of a battery bank by just looking
>> at it or talking about it...and clients sometimes receive the inevitable
>> "battery bad news" if they are shown the diminished capacity on a digital
>> display after an equitably managed "pump & dump".
>>
>> Your thought, Drake, of holding back on any re-wiring of the battery
>> pack...seems prudent...until the first set of amp-hour measurements are
>> recorded as a baseline. From there...a common pattern is a series of
>> attempted remediation efforts--all for pay, of course--until the homeowner
>> acknowledges that it's time to start afresh.
>>
>> Oops, I left out an important step: getting a read on whether the client
>> has the money for new batteries or not. I'm personally terrible at getting
>> that reconnaissance done early enough. If the client isn't materially
>> blessed to be able to get new batteries, they might be better off spending
>> limited funds on fuel for the engine generator instead of on battery
>> testing & 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Insolation calc anyone ;)

[Solar]

I live in Northern MN and we get very cold days (-50F +) and very crisp clear 
days when it’s this cold. I’ve seen 1333 WM2 on the same plane as my array with 
snow reflecting sun light. Using the daystar irradiance meter. I am at 1400’ so 
your increased elevation with very cold temps, snow and edge of cloud could 
maybe cause it. Maybe a calculation of extremes could give you an idea. 
Rearrange the formula and get the irradiance needed to cause this high of 
watts. 

Jesse Dahl

NABCEP PV Installation Professional
IBEW Local 292 - Electrician 
Electrical/Solar PV Instructor - HCC

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 22, 2018, at 12:10 AM,  
>  wrote:
> 
> Compadres,
> 
> I have 4 identical arrays of 3 strings of 3 Solarworld SW 245 mono (2010 
> model) to FM80s. When designing, not exceeding 150 voc was critical. No 
> record temp data available. Location ~ 4,000' Pacific Northwest. Recently 
> replaced an FM80 with 6 blown FETs showing max power at 3075 watts! This from 
> a 2205 watt array into a 24 volt battery. Max historical voc is ~120. My 
> guess at record low temp is -10F. tc%/ºC MPP doesn't get anywhere close. What 
> would the WM2 need to be in order to achieve 3075 watts on a 2205 watt array? 
> BTW, 2 of the four original chargers are still working fine and one of them 
> also shows 3075 watts max power. Edge of cloud effect against snow field at 
> bottom of array?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Bruce Fiero-RMI
> 
> 
> 
> "Energizing the Rogue Valley"
> 
> 4115 S Pacific Hwy
> Medford, OR 97501
> 
> P: 541.535.3965
> F: 541.512.0061
> E: br...@willpowerelect.com
> W: Willpower Electric, LLC 
> 
> CCB 191852
> Oregon Electrical Contractor C681
> NABCEP Certified Solar (PV) Installer 031409-38
> DUNS 191470363 
> Energy Trust of Oregon Trade Ally Solar (PV) Installation & Energy Efficient 
> Commercial Lighting Programs  
> 
>  
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ni-Fe update?

[Dan Fink]

Wrenches; I have run my house on 12 volt NiFe batteries for 3 years now. I
was going to write a long essay, but Kienen beat me to it. It's an
excellent analysis, I agree with each of his bullet points.

All I'll add is that the batteries charge with decent efficiency up to 80%
SOC. To get that last 20%, they do require 1.65 volts per cell, which most
standalone inverter / chargers won't do off a generator - they freak out at
a bit above 15v and shut down.

I've used 2 tactics to get that last 20% when using a generator, and I have
experienced the same issue that Kienen mentioned -- they need to get a nice
strong, charge cycle every so often or else they will behave like a heavily
sulfated FLA, but of course the NiFes don't sulfate.

1) after charging to 80% SOC with the generator, both of my charge
controllers (outback and midnite) have no problem being programmed to a
16.5v absorb cycle, I set absorb at 6 hours, on a sunny day that does the
trick here.

2) If no long, sunny day available and you are forced to use a generator
and charger that won't let you get to 16.5v, remove one cell from the
series string, and charge the other 9 cells. Then put the one you removed
back in the string, and remove one of the ones you discharged, and
generator charge again. Then re-assemble back into a 10-cell string. I've
only had to do this a couple times.

In general, I'm happy with these batteries, and happy to never have to deal
with sulfation again, and remember I have the worst case scenario here with
a 12v bank, undersized because of the greater DOD capability of NiFes, a
refrigerator that surges very hard, and a magnum inverter that goes wonky
with big surges at low voltages.

I would sell Iron Edison NiFes to a client...but unless they are a special
sort of off-grid 12v person, I'd only do 48v because of the surge issue.


Dan Fink
Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
Executive Director, Buckville Energy
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
NABCEP PV Associate

970.672.4342




On Wed, Nov 21, 2018 at 11:35 AM  wrote:

> Hi Guys, I have a potential customer inquiring about installing a pre
> packaged Iron Edison system.. I recall hearing strange stories about Ni-Fe
> batteries but don't recall the specifics. I have done a few searches with
> mixed results.. And have friends advising I run like a Rabbit.. Thought I'd
> run it by you folks for an update..
> Thanks, and Happy Turkey Day.
>
> db
>
>
> Dan Brown
> Foxfire Energy Corp.
> Renewable Energy Systems
> (802)-483-2564
> www.Foxfire-Energy.com
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