Re: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground fault breaker

[Benn Kilburn]

James, where is the CT located?
 If it’s in a panelboard/loadcenter, I understand that they are not “certified” 
to allow CT’s inside so the work-around is to pass the conductors thru a 
jbox before the panelboard and locate the CTs there. 

Benn Kilburn
SkyFire Energy
780-906-7807

> On Jun 14, 2020, at 6:08 AM, Mac Lewis  wrote:
> 
> James,
> 
> I might open the ground fault breaker and show him with the ohmmeter that 
> this is not a solidly grounded system.  You are absolutely correct with this 
> and if he gets tough just let him know you need him to sign off personally 
> that you had informed him of this exact code reference.  Or he may sign off 
> from the office...
> 
>> On Sat, Jun 13, 2020 at 7:21 PM Kent Osterberg  wrote:
>> James,
>> 
>> Here's the code reference: 2017 690.31(B)(1). Only solidly grounded PV 
>> system conductors shall be marked in accordance with 200.6 (white or gray). 
>> 
>> Kent Osterberg 
>> Blue Mountain Solar
>>  
>> 
>>> On 6/13/2020 5:56 PM, James Jarvis wrote:
>>> Brian, thank you very much. With your hint of "functional ground" I can 
>>> clearly see that I am not allowed to have those be white wires.  
>>> 
>>> Now time for me to incur the full wrath by daring to question the infinite 
>>> wisdom of the "highly qualified individual" from the state.
>>> 
>>> (all kinds of fun stuff from this guy. Got another violation for having a 
>>> donut type current transformer over a line voltage wire. He said that 
>>> wasn't allowed.)
>>> 
>>> Thank you,
>>> 
>>> -James Jefferson Jarvis
>>> APRS World, LLC
>>> +1-507-454-2727
>>> 
>>> (Sent from my phone. My apologies for spelling errors and brevity.)
>>> 
 On Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 17:41 Brian Mehalic  wrote:
 Change in 2017 to “functional grounded” was to clarify this - it’s not 
 solid when it is thru a fuse or breaker than can be interrupted either in 
 the event of a ground-fault or if the breaker is intentionally opened. 
 2017 makes it clear that there are very few solidly grounded systems (2 or 
 less PV source circuits, not touching a building the only case it is 
 allowed). Pardon any incorrect language as I don’t have my code book, but 
 I do think the 2017 NEC® makes it very clear, including in the definition 
 of function grounded, that those conductors cannot be white or gray, 
 regardless of if the system has a transformer-based or TL inverter or a CC 
 with integrated or an external GF breaker/fuse. 
 
 Brian
 
 > On Jun 13, 2020, at 3:05 PM, greg egan  wrote:
 > 
 > Jim,  Hope all is well with you and yours.  on white wires in circuits, 
 > In 3 ph. circuits you can get killed breaking into a neutral that's 
 > common to other circuits.  One example, working on 277 lighting, you 
 > throw the breaker or light switch on the one circuit you're working so 
 > the hot isn't hot anymore.  It's standard practice for 3 ph. lighting 
 > ckts to share a neutral.  The white wire in your ckt is wire nutted in 
 > the j-box up in the ceiling to the common neutrals.  Those neutrals are 
 > hot to ground when their respective ckts are hot and they're carrying 
 > current.
 > 
 > Just thought it was worth mentioning on this list that there's no hard 
 > fast rule that all white wires are dead.  It depends on the ckt.
 > 
 > Best,
 > Greg Egan
 > Remote Power Inc.
 > 
 > 
 > Message: 11
 > Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:17:19 -0500
 > From: James Jarvis
 > To: RE-wrenches
 > Subject: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground fault breaker
 > Message-ID:
 >
 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
 > 
 > Hello Wrenches,
 > 
 > I have an off-grid install where I was recently red-tagged by the state
 > inspector. System is 24 volt with battery, Magnum inverters, some Magnum
 > charge controllers, and a Morningstar charge controller. It is permitted
 > under NEC 2017.
 > 
 > One of the inspectors issues was that my DC- conductors to the array /
 > rapid shut down box are black color. He wants them to be white because he
 > says they are solidly grounded. I reason that they are only solidly
 > grounded when they are solidly grounded. As soon as the ground fault
 > protection breaker opens, they are floating at array voltage. I think it 
 > is
 > misleading and unsafe to have a white conductor that can have hundreds of
 > volts of potential on it when a breaker trips.
 > 
 > I haven't dug into the code yet. I'm just working on the logic that one 
 > of
 > my mentors put into me which is white wires better not have voltage
 > potential on them. "That's the sort of sh*t that kills electricians" is
 > what he repeatedly said ... and it's stuck with me.
 > 
 > Thoughts? I'm backed into the corner with the state, so I will be 
 > changing
 > them to whi

Re: [RE-wrenches] Floatovoltaics

[Corey Shalanski]

Hi Dave,

I was actually referring to a growing trend in the PV industry
(particularly in Asia) to attach PV arrays - and also inverters in some
cases - to floating pontoons and then install them on bodies of water. The
systems are often referred to as floating PV (FPV) or "floatovoltaics".
Here's an NREL link which provides further information about the concept:
https://www.nrel.gov/news/press/2018/nrel-details-great-potential-for-floating-pv-systems.html

--
Corey Shalanski
Jah Light Solar
Portland, Jamaica


On  Sun, 14 Jun 2020 07:30:14 -0700, Dave Angelini wrote:

>
> I know both Schneider mppt's can be negative, positive, or ungrounded.
> Others must do this also. Is that what you are asking?
>
> They work as
> expected as far as I have seen.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground fault breaker

[William Miller]

Wrenches:

Well now that the NFPA has acknowledged that GFDI protected circuits do not 
solidly ground the “grounded“ conductor, and we know they can’t be white in 
color, it begs the next question: Should these sort-of-grounded grounded  
conductors be switched and over-current protected?

The manual for the Schneider charge controller shows the negative (or 
referenced) switched on one page and not switched on another.  Outback FM 100 
manual shows the negative not switched.  

Anyone have an argument either way?

William Miller
www.millersolar.com

> On Jun 13, 2020, at 6:21 PM, Kent Osterberg  wrote:
> 
>  James,
> 
> Here's the code reference: 2017 690.31(B)(1). Only solidly grounded PV system 
> conductors shall be marked in accordance with 200.6 (white or gray). 
> 
> Kent Osterberg 
> Blue Mountain Solar
>  
> 
> On 6/13/2020 5:56 PM, James Jarvis wrote:
>> Brian, thank you very much. With your hint of "functional ground" I can 
>> clearly see that I am not allowed to have those be white wires. 
>> 
>> Now time for me to incur the full wrath by daring to question the infinite 
>> wisdom of the "highly qualified individual" from the state.
>> 
>> (all kinds of fun stuff from this guy. Got another violation for having a 
>> donut type current transformer over a line voltage wire. He said that wasn't 
>> allowed.)
>> 
>> Thank you,
>> 
>> -James Jefferson Jarvis
>> APRS World, LLC
>> +1-507-454-2727
>> 
>> (Sent from my phone. My apologies for spelling errors and brevity.)
>> 
>> On Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 17:41 Brian Mehalic  wrote:
>>> Change in 2017 to “functional grounded” was to clarify this - it’s not 
>>> solid when it is thru a fuse or breaker than can be interrupted either in 
>>> the event of a ground-fault or if the breaker is intentionally opened. 2017 
>>> makes it clear that there are very few solidly grounded systems (2 or less 
>>> PV source circuits, not touching a building the only case it is allowed). 
>>> Pardon any incorrect language as I don’t have my code book, but I do think 
>>> the 2017 NEC® makes it very clear, including in the definition of function 
>>> grounded, that those conductors cannot be white or gray, regardless of if 
>>> the system has a transformer-based or TL inverter or a CC with integrated 
>>> or an external GF breaker/fuse. 
>>> 
>>> Brian
>>> 
>>> > On Jun 13, 2020, at 3:05 PM, greg egan  wrote:
>>> > 
>>> > Jim,  Hope all is well with you and yours.  on white wires in circuits, 
>>> > In 3 ph. circuits you can get killed breaking into a neutral that's 
>>> > common to other circuits.  One example, working on 277 lighting, you 
>>> > throw the breaker or light switch on the one circuit you're working so 
>>> > the hot isn't hot anymore.  It's standard practice for 3 ph. lighting 
>>> > ckts to share a neutral.  The white wire in your ckt is wire nutted in 
>>> > the j-box up in the ceiling to the common neutrals.  Those neutrals are 
>>> > hot to ground when their respective ckts are hot and they're carrying 
>>> > current.
>>> > 
>>> > Just thought it was worth mentioning on this list that there's no hard 
>>> > fast rule that all white wires are dead.  It depends on the ckt.
>>> > 
>>> > Best,
>>> > Greg Egan
>>> > Remote Power Inc.
>>> > 
>>> > 
>>> > Message: 11
>>> > Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:17:19 -0500
>>> > From: James Jarvis
>>> > To: RE-wrenches
>>> > Subject: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground fault breaker
>>> > Message-ID:
>>> >
>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>>> > 
>>> > Hello Wrenches,
>>> > 
>>> > I have an off-grid install where I was recently red-tagged by the state
>>> > inspector. System is 24 volt with battery, Magnum inverters, some Magnum
>>> > charge controllers, and a Morningstar charge controller. It is permitted
>>> > under NEC 2017.
>>> > 
>>> > One of the inspectors issues was that my DC- conductors to the array /
>>> > rapid shut down box are black color. He wants them to be white because he
>>> > says they are solidly grounded. I reason that they are only solidly
>>> > grounded when they are solidly grounded. As soon as the ground fault
>>> > protection breaker opens, they are floating at array voltage. I think it 
>>> > is
>>> > misleading and unsafe to have a white conductor that can have hundreds of
>>> > volts of potential on it when a breaker trips.
>>> > 
>>> > I haven't dug into the code yet. I'm just working on the logic that one of
>>> > my mentors put into me which is white wires better not have voltage
>>> > potential on them. "That's the sort of sh*t that kills electricians" is
>>> > what he repeatedly said ... and it's stuck with me.
>>> > 
>>> > Thoughts? I'm backed into the corner with the state, so I will be changing
>>> > them to white even if it is unsafe ... unless I have some code backing.
>>> > 
>>> > Changing the wires to white will get interesting up on the roof. I
>>> > wonder if they want me to cut off the black MC on the modules and replace
>>> > them with white? This

Re: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground fault breaker

[Ray]

It also seems like there should be some sort of wire marking to indicate 
functional grounding.  This code change makes sense, but it unleashes 
many new questions as well.  My vote is that is that PV is already 
current limited, so I don't see good reason to add fusing to the 
"functionally grounded conductor".


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 6/15/20 3:24 PM, William Miller wrote:

Wrenches:

Well now that the NFPA has acknowledged that GFDI protected circuits 
do not solidly ground the “grounded“ conductor, and we know they can’t 
be white in color, it begs the next question:   Should these 
sort-of-grounded grounded  conductors be switched and over-current 
protected?


The manual for the Schneider charge controller shows the negative (or 
referenced) switched on one page and not switched on another.  Outback 
FM 100 manual shows the negative not switched.


Anyone have an argument either way?

William Miller
www.millersolar.com


On Jun 13, 2020, at 6:21 PM, Kent Osterberg  wrote:

 James,

Here's the code reference: 2017 690.31(B)(1). Only solidly grounded 
PV system conductors shall be marked in accordance with 200.6 (white 
or gray).


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


On 6/13/2020 5:56 PM, James Jarvis wrote:
Brian, thank you very much. With your hint of "functional ground" I 
can clearly see that I am not allowed to have those be white wires.


Now time for me to incur the full wrath by daring to question the 
infinite wisdom of the "highly qualified individual" from the state.


(all kinds of fun stuff from this guy. Got another violation for 
having a donut type current transformer over a line voltage wire. He 
said that wasn't allowed.)


Thank you,

-James Jefferson Jarvis
APRS World, LLC
+1-507-454-2727

(Sent from my phone. My apologies for spelling errors and brevity.)

On Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 17:41 Brian Mehalic > wrote:


Change in 2017 to “functional grounded” was to clarify this -
it’s not solid when it is thru a fuse or breaker than can be
interrupted either in the event of a ground-fault or if the
breaker is intentionally opened. 2017 makes it clear that there
are very few solidly grounded systems (2 or less PV source
circuits, not touching a building the only case it is allowed).
Pardon any incorrect language as I don’t have my code book, but
I do think the 2017 NEC® makes it very clear, including in the
definition of function grounded, that those conductors cannot be
white or gray, regardless of if the system has a
transformer-based or TL inverter or a CC with integrated or an
external GF breaker/fuse.

Brian

> On Jun 13, 2020, at 3:05 PM, greg egan
mailto:g...@remotepowerinc.com>> wrote:
>
> Jim,  Hope all is well with you and yours.  on white wires in
circuits, In 3 ph. circuits you can get killed breaking into a
neutral that's common to other circuits.  One example, working
on 277 lighting, you throw the breaker or light switch on the
one circuit you're working so the hot isn't hot anymore.  It's
standard practice for 3 ph. lighting ckts to share a neutral. 
The white wire in your ckt is wire nutted in the j-box up in the
ceiling to the common neutrals. Those neutrals are hot to ground
when their respective ckts are hot and they're carrying current.
>
> Just thought it was worth mentioning on this list that there's
no hard fast rule that all white wires are dead.  It depends on
the ckt.
>
> Best,
> Greg Egan
> Remote Power Inc.
>
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:17:19 -0500
> From: James Jarvismailto:j...@aprsworld.com>>
> To: RE-wrenchesmailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground fault
breaker
> Message-ID:
>   
mailto:ugtv6etu5tnepm00n...@mail.gmail.com>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hello Wrenches,
>
> I have an off-grid install where I was recently red-tagged by
the state
> inspector. System is 24 volt with battery, Magnum inverters,
some Magnum
> charge controllers, and a Morningstar charge controller. It is
permitted
> under NEC 2017.
>
> One of the inspectors issues was that my DC- conductors to the
array /
> rapid shut down box are black color. He wants them to be white
because he
> says they are solidly grounded. I reason that they are only
solidly
> grounded when they are solidly grounded. As soon as the ground
fault
> protection breaker opens, they are floating at array voltage.
I think it is
> misleading and unsafe to have a white conductor that can have
hundreds of
> volts of potential on it when a breaker trips.
>
> I haven't dug into the code yet. I'm just working on the logic
that one of
> my mentors put into me which is white wires better not have

Re: [RE-wrenches] Floatovoltaics

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

Hi Corey, 

Yep I have seen them up in Napa on a small lake. It seems
very risky in the Caribbean. The only thing I want on a roof is gutters for
rainwater. You can tell I am biased. Maybe someone else has better info. 


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines
don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
[2]
text 209 813 0060

On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 13:15:42 -0500, Corey Shalanski 
wrote:   Hi Dave,   I was actually referring to a growing trend in the PV
industry (particularly in Asia) to attach PV arrays - and also inverters in
some cases - to floating pontoons and then install them on bodies of water.
The systems are often referred to as floating PV (FPV) or "floatovoltaics".
Here's an NREL link which provides further information about the concept:
https://www.nrel.gov/news/press/2018/nrel-details-great-potential-for-floating-pv-systems.html
[3]   -- Corey Shalanski Jah Light Solar Portland, Jamaica On Sun, 14
Jun 2020 07:30:14 -0700, Dave Angelini wrote: 
I know both Schneider mppt's
can be negative, positive, or ungrounded.
Others must do this also. Is that
what you are asking?

They work as
expected as far as I have seen. 


Links:
--
[1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
[2]
mailto:offgridso...@sti.net
[3]
https://www.nrel.gov/news/press/2018/nrel-details-great-potential-for-floating-pv-systems.html
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[RE-wrenches] Experiences working with SMA SBS 6.0 battery inverters

[Vic Guillot]

Hello Wrenches,
I would like to hear from anyone who has had recent experiences dealing
with installation and tech support of SMA-America SBS 6.0 battery
inverters, ABU's etc. We have done three installs this year and would like
to discuss the installation and follow ups with SMA tech support.
Thanks,
Vic Guillot
Sol Sierra, Inc.

Vic Guillot
Sol Sierra, Inc.
209.795.3554 office
209.768.3560 mobile/text
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Floatovoltaics

[Jim Duncan]

At Ciel & Terre, we have been proudly *developing large-scale floating 
PV plants* for commercial, government and non-profit institutions 
worldwide *since 2011*.

https://www.ciel-et-terre.net/



On 6/15/2020 3:04 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:


Hi Corey,

Yep I have seen them up in Napa on a small lake. It seems very risky 
in the Caribbean. The only thing I want on a roof is gutters for 
rainwater. You can tell I am biased.  Maybe someone else has better info.


  
*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" 
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridso...@sti.net 
 text 209 813 0060*


On Mon, 15 Jun 2020 13:15:42 -0500, Corey Shalanski 
 wrote:



Hi Dave,
I was actually referring to a growing trend in the PV industry 
(particularly in Asia) to attach PV arrays - and also inverters in 
some cases - to floating pontoons and then install them on bodies of 
water. The systems are often referred to as floating PV (FPV) or 
"floatovoltaics". Here's an NREL link which provides further 
information about the concept: 
https://www.nrel.gov/news/press/2018/nrel-details-great-potential-for-floating-pv-systems.html

--
Corey Shalanski
Jah Light Solar
Portland, Jamaica
On  Sun, 14 Jun 2020 07:30:14 -0700, Dave Angelini wrote:


I know both Schneider mppt's can be negative, positive, or
ungrounded.
Others must do this also. Is that what you are asking?

They work as
expected as far as I have seen.



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--
Jim Duncan
Solar Acres Farm
817.917.0527
solarguy2...@gmail.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Experiences working with SMA SBS 6.0 battery inverters

[scot.arey]

We have done several and there is a learning curve on some aspects. Reach out 
anytime.

 

Scot Arey

scot.a...@solarcentex.com  

254-300-1228

 

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of Vic 
Guillot
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2020 3:20 PM
To: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Experiences working with SMA SBS 6.0 battery inverters

 

Hello Wrenches,

I would like to hear from anyone who has had recent experiences dealing with 
installation and tech support of SMA-America SBS 6.0 battery inverters, ABU's 
etc. We have done three installs this year and would like to discuss the 
installation and follow ups with SMA tech support.

Thanks,

Vic Guillot

Sol Sierra, Inc.

 

  

 

Vic Guillot

Sol Sierra, Inc.

209.795.3554 office

209.768.3560 mobile/text

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground fault breaker

[Kent Osterberg]

William,

This is new for the 2017 code:
2017 NEC 690.13(D) An equipment disconnecting means shall simultaneously 
disconnect all current carrying conductors that are not solidly 
grounded. Yet Schneider, Outback, Midnite, Magnum, and ... all still 
have a single PV wire disconnected at the charge controller in their panels.


As far as fusing both conductors goes, most PV circuit over current 
protection devices are selected so that they can never be tripped by the 
PV system. Adding another over current device in the non-solidly 
grounded conductor would be redundant. In a combiner box, a fault in one 
string can be back fed by many strings and thus trip an over current 
device, if the array is solidly grounded or if accidentally grounded and 
the ground fault detection scheme doesn't detect it. And even in a 
combiner box an current device in the non-solidly grounded conductor 
would be redundant.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar

On 6/15/2020 12:24 PM, William Miller wrote:

Wrenches:

Well now that the NFPA has acknowledged that GFDI protected circuits 
do not solidly ground the “grounded“ conductor, and we know they can’t 
be white in color, it begs the next question:   Should these 
sort-of-grounded grounded  conductors be switched and over-current 
protected?


The manual for the Schneider charge controller shows the negative (or 
referenced) switched on one page and not switched on another.  Outback 
FM 100 manual shows the negative not switched.


Anyone have an argument either way?

William Miller
www.millersolar.com


On Jun 13, 2020, at 6:21 PM, Kent Osterberg  wrote:

 James,

Here's the code reference: 2017 690.31(B)(1). Only solidly grounded 
PV system conductors shall be marked in accordance with 200.6 (white 
or gray).


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


On 6/13/2020 5:56 PM, James Jarvis wrote:
Brian, thank you very much. With your hint of "functional ground" I 
can clearly see that I am not allowed to have those be white wires.


Now time for me to incur the full wrath by daring to question the 
infinite wisdom of the "highly qualified individual" from the state.


(all kinds of fun stuff from this guy. Got another violation for 
having a donut type current transformer over a line voltage wire. He 
said that wasn't allowed.)


Thank you,

-James Jefferson Jarvis
APRS World, LLC
+1-507-454-2727

(Sent from my phone. My apologies for spelling errors and brevity.)

On Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 17:41 Brian Mehalic > wrote:


Change in 2017 to “functional grounded” was to clarify this -
it’s not solid when it is thru a fuse or breaker than can be
interrupted either in the event of a ground-fault or if the
breaker is intentionally opened. 2017 makes it clear that there
are very few solidly grounded systems (2 or less PV source
circuits, not touching a building the only case it is allowed).
Pardon any incorrect language as I don’t have my code book, but
I do think the 2017 NEC® makes it very clear, including in the
definition of function grounded, that those conductors cannot be
white or gray, regardless of if the system has a
transformer-based or TL inverter or a CC with integrated or an
external GF breaker/fuse.

Brian

> On Jun 13, 2020, at 3:05 PM, greg egan
mailto:g...@remotepowerinc.com>> wrote:
>
> Jim,  Hope all is well with you and yours.  on white wires in
circuits, In 3 ph. circuits you can get killed breaking into a
neutral that's common to other circuits.  One example, working
on 277 lighting, you throw the breaker or light switch on the
one circuit you're working so the hot isn't hot anymore.  It's
standard practice for 3 ph. lighting ckts to share a neutral. 
The white wire in your ckt is wire nutted in the j-box up in the
ceiling to the common neutrals. Those neutrals are hot to ground
when their respective ckts are hot and they're carrying current.
>
> Just thought it was worth mentioning on this list that there's
no hard fast rule that all white wires are dead.  It depends on
the ckt.
>
> Best,
> Greg Egan
> Remote Power Inc.
>
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:17:19 -0500
> From: James Jarvismailto:j...@aprsworld.com>>
> To: RE-wrenchesmailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground fault
breaker
> Message-ID:
>   
mailto:ugtv6etu5tnepm00n...@mail.gmail.com>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hello Wrenches,
>
> I have an off-grid install where I was recently red-tagged by
the state
> inspector. System is 24 volt with battery, Magnum inverters,
some Magnum
> charge controllers, and a Morningstar charge controller. It is
permitted
> under NEC 2017.
>
> One of the inspectors issues was that my DC- conductors to the
array /
> rapid shut do

Re: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground fault breaker

[Barton Churchill]

Thanks Hans, we look forward to meeting you there!

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of Kent 
Osterberg 
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2020 4:06 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground fault breaker

William,

This is new for the 2017 code:
2017 NEC 690.13(D) An equipment disconnecting means shall simultaneously 
disconnect all current carrying conductors that are not solidly grounded. Yet 
Schneider, Outback, Midnite, Magnum, and ... all still have a single PV wire 
disconnected at the charge controller in their panels.

As far as fusing both conductors goes, most PV circuit over current protection 
devices are selected so that they can never be tripped by the PV system. Adding 
another over current device in the non-solidly grounded conductor would be 
redundant. In a combiner box, a fault in one string can be back fed by many 
strings and thus trip an over current device, if the array is solidly grounded 
or if accidentally grounded and the ground fault detection scheme doesn't 
detect it. And even in a combiner box an current device in the non-solidly 
grounded conductor would be redundant.

Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar

On 6/15/2020 12:24 PM, William Miller wrote:
Wrenches:

Well now that the NFPA has acknowledged that GFDI protected circuits do not 
solidly ground the “grounded“ conductor, and we know they can’t be white in 
color, it begs the next question: Should these sort-of-grounded grounded  
conductors be switched and over-current protected?

The manual for the Schneider charge controller shows the negative (or 
referenced) switched on one page and not switched on another.  Outback FM 100 
manual shows the negative not switched.

Anyone have an argument either way?

William Miller
www.millersolar.com

On Jun 13, 2020, at 6:21 PM, Kent Osterberg 
 wrote:

 James,

Here's the code reference: 2017 690.31(B)(1). Only solidly grounded PV system 
conductors shall be marked in accordance with 200.6 (white or gray).

Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


On 6/13/2020 5:56 PM, James Jarvis wrote:
Brian, thank you very much. With your hint of "functional ground" I can clearly 
see that I am not allowed to have those be white wires.

Now time for me to incur the full wrath by daring to question the infinite 
wisdom of the "highly qualified individual" from the state.

(all kinds of fun stuff from this guy. Got another violation for having a donut 
type current transformer over a line voltage wire. He said that wasn't allowed.)

Thank you,

-James Jefferson Jarvis
APRS World, LLC
+1-507-454-2727

(Sent from my phone. My apologies for spelling errors and brevity.)

On Sat, Jun 13, 2020, 17:41 Brian Mehalic 
mailto:br...@solarenergy.org>> wrote:
Change in 2017 to “functional grounded” was to clarify this - it’s not solid 
when it is thru a fuse or breaker than can be interrupted either in the event 
of a ground-fault or if the breaker is intentionally opened. 2017 makes it 
clear that there are very few solidly grounded systems (2 or less PV source 
circuits, not touching a building the only case it is allowed). Pardon any 
incorrect language as I don’t have my code book, but I do think the 2017 NEC® 
makes it very clear, including in the definition of function grounded, that 
those conductors cannot be white or gray, regardless of if the system has a 
transformer-based or TL inverter or a CC with integrated or an external GF 
breaker/fuse.

Brian

> On Jun 13, 2020, at 3:05 PM, greg egan 
> mailto:g...@remotepowerinc.com>> wrote:
>
> Jim,  Hope all is well with you and yours.  on white wires in circuits, In 3 
> ph. circuits you can get killed breaking into a neutral that's common to 
> other circuits.  One example, working on 277 lighting, you throw the breaker 
> or light switch on the one circuit you're working so the hot isn't hot 
> anymore.  It's standard practice for 3 ph. lighting ckts to share a neutral.  
> The white wire in your ckt is wire nutted in the j-box up in the ceiling to 
> the common neutrals.  Those neutrals are hot to ground when their respective 
> ckts are hot and they're carrying current.
>
> Just thought it was worth mentioning on this list that there's no hard fast 
> rule that all white wires are dead.  It depends on the ckt.
>
> Best,
> Greg Egan
> Remote Power Inc.
>
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Fri, 12 Jun 2020 15:17:19 -0500
> From: James Jarvismailto:j...@aprsworld.com>>
> To: 
> RE-wrenchesmailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] White wire for DC- after ground fault breaker
> Message-ID:
>
> mailto:ugtv6etu5tnepm00n...@mail.gmail.com>>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hello Wrenches,
>
> I have an off-grid install where I was recently red-tagged by the state
> inspector. System is 24 volt with battery, Magnum inverters, some Magnum
> charge controllers, and a Morningstar charge controller. It is permitted