Re: [RE-wrenches] Franklin Home Power

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

sorry for a dumb question but what is the voltage ranges of the Franklin?

On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 4:26 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Enphase does generator support as well. Fortunately, I do not need that,
> so maybe it opens up my options. It's good to know that Franklin supports
> off-grid. I will reach out to them to confirm.
>
> I asked my Enphase rep to run this up the chain of command to see if they
> would support this installation given that it's kind of high profile and a
> fantastic marketing opportunity.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 5:17 PM Daniel Young  wrote:
>
>> I believe they do. They also have generator support with programable SOC
>> trigger points. They can start either  2 wire start generators, or if the
>> generator is existing and has a complicated signaling system, you can
>> actually wire the Franklin smart module to the existing generator ATS and
>> let Franklin kill the AC power to the ATS to force the generator to start.
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>> Danny Young
>>
>> Engineering Team Lead
>>
>> NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90
>> Solar Energy Solutions
>>
>> Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville |
>> Indianapolis
>>
>> 513-448-5176 (mobile)
>>
>> 877-312-7456 (Main Office)
>>
>> da...@sesre.com
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* RE-wrenches  *On
>> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
>> *Sent:* Thursday, September 14, 2023 4:35 PM
>> *To:* RE-wrenches 
>> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski 
>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Franklin Home Power
>>
>>
>>
>> *Caution:* This email originated from outside SES. Do not click links or
>> open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is
>> safe.
>>
>>
>>
>> Does anyone know if Franklin supports their AC-coupled battery solution
>> in a completely off-grid scenario (no grid present)?
>>
>>
>>
>> I need to install a demonstration system with ~40kWh capacity to run
>> loads in an outdoor off-grid facility. It needs to be wall mounted, NEMA
>> 3R, and have 10kW AC output rating minimum. Aesthetics are important.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm contemplating installing an Enphase 5P battery system, but it's not
>> officially supported, even though I believe I can trick the system enough
>> to get it commissioned and running in off-grid mode. If Franklin supports
>> this, that's a checkmark in their column of the comparison chart.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm not opposed to a 48V DC battery system with a Sol-Ark 15k or
>> something like that, but I think my options for wall-mount, outdoor, and
>> beautiful are going to be limited.
>>
>>
>>
>> I don't need any generator integration.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>>
>> Florida Solar Design Group
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] sol ark AGS question

[jay via RE-wrenches]

As I’ve been researching this, the Atkinson GSCM can do this when coupled to an 
external relay.

If I understand correctly.

Jay

The warm up ( on delay ) is 0- 60 seconds,

the cool down ( off delay) is 0-120 seconds

https://thesolarstore.com/manuals/GSCM.pdf

> On Sep 16, 2023, at 9:20 AM, Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> Michael,
> 
> Sol Ark does not have an explicit or adjustable cool down setting, but it has 
> fixed the problem of dropping the AGS signal under full load. 
> 
> dus...@sol-ark.com  can you confirm this? 
> 
> On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 5:41 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches 
>  > wrote:
> Chris, 
> Just so that I understand correctly, are you saying that new firmware allows 
> for generator cool down?
> 
> 
> On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 2:33 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches 
>  > wrote:
> I saw that setting. I didn't have a chance to look it up today, but I'm going 
> back to the site tomorrow. I'm going to play with that and try to get rid of 
> the ancillary equipment that is no longer necessary. Thanks for the tip.
> 
> On Fri, Sep 15, 2023, 5:26 PM Chris Sparadeo  > wrote:
> In an off-grid scenario I would suggest utilizing the grid connect timer as a 
> Gen warm up. I typically set this qualification time to 30 or 60 seconds. Sol 
> Ark fixed the problem with dropping the 2 wire start under full load, so if 
> this is an issue for you, I would update the firmware. 
> 
> On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 4:56 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches 
>  > wrote:
> I just replaced two Sunny Islands and one Sunny Boy that I did not install 
> with a single Sol-Ark 15k today. The generator installer (not me) had already 
> installed a custom but simple time delay relay. I didn't get into the logic 
> of it, but from what I understand the generator already had a cool-down 
> period when remote start signal is lost, but no warm up delay. 
> 
> Major deficiency? I think that is actually pretty accurate and Sol-Ark should 
> fix it, but it isn't too hard to take care of it another way.
> 
> I wonder if this has something with the distinction of accepting generator 
> input on the grid input as well. You would not want a grid delay if it were a 
> utility. Still, they should be able to build in that logic I would think.
> 
> Jason Szumlanski
> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 8:28 AM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches 
>  > wrote:
> We learned of this major deficiency after an eight unit install. No cool down 
> is disastrous to modern diesels. Our work around was installing a 400amp 
> contactor and macromatic programmable relay. 
> 
> On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 10:05 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches 
>  > wrote:
> Jay, wrenches 
> ASCO makes multiple ATS controls that can manage delays latching up and for 
> cool down. Most of the gensets have are  programmed cool down after relay 
> opens so its not an issue. Generally on start up the genny connects as soon 
> as it's voltage and freq are within range.
> fun times
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 2:26 PM jay via RE-wrenches 
>  > wrote:
> Hi All,
> 
> I have a client with a sol ark and it doesn’t have warm up or cool down, kind 
> of amazing companies are going backwards in their tech. 
> 
> 
> Has anyone come up with external fix for this?
> 
> I am guessing the internal relay on the sol ark switches closed when it sees 
> the correct volts/hz and opens the sol ark relay when it sends the off signal.
> 
> If thats correct I  can pretty easily use a delay relay on the off cycle 
> assuming the on signal has a time window to allow for this delay in sending 
> power to the inverter. 
> 
>  The on delay I don’t see anyway unless I use a contactor with on delay relay.
> 
> Maybe there is a off the shelf generator transfer switch that has this built 
> in?
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 
> Jay
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] sol ark AGS question

[Chris Sparadeo via RE-wrenches]

Michael,

Sol Ark does not have an explicit or adjustable cool down setting, but it
has fixed the problem of dropping the AGS signal under full load.

dus...@sol-ark.com can you confirm this?

On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 5:41 PM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Chris,
> Just so that I understand correctly, are you saying that new firmware
> allows for generator cool down?
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 2:33 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> I saw that setting. I didn't have a chance to look it up today, but I'm
>> going back to the site tomorrow. I'm going to play with that and try to get
>> rid of the ancillary equipment that is no longer necessary. Thanks for the
>> tip.
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 15, 2023, 5:26 PM Chris Sparadeo 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In an off-grid scenario I would suggest utilizing the grid connect timer
>>> as a Gen warm up. I typically set this qualification time to 30 or 60
>>> seconds. Sol Ark fixed the problem with dropping the 2 wire start under
>>> full load, so if this is an issue for you, I would update the firmware.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 4:56 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
 I just replaced two Sunny Islands and one Sunny Boy that I did not
 install with a single Sol-Ark 15k today. The generator installer (not me)
 had already installed a custom but simple time delay relay. I didn't get
 into the logic of it, but from what I understand the generator already had
 a cool-down period when remote start signal is lost, but no warm up delay.

 Major deficiency? I think that is actually pretty accurate and Sol-Ark
 should fix it, but it isn't too hard to take care of it another way.

 I wonder if this has something with the distinction of accepting
 generator input on the grid input as well. You would not want a grid delay
 if it were a utility. Still, they should be able to build in that logic I
 would think.

 Jason Szumlanski
 Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
 NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
 Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956


 On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 8:28 AM Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches <
 re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> We learned of this major deficiency after an eight unit install. No
> cool down is disastrous to modern diesels. Our work around was installing 
> a
> 400amp contactor and macromatic programmable relay.
>
> On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 10:05 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Jay, wrenches
>> ASCO makes multiple ATS controls that can manage delays latching up
>> and for cool down. Most of the gensets have are  programmed cool down 
>> after
>> relay opens so its not an issue. Generally on start up the genny connects
>> as soon as it's voltage and freq are within range.
>> fun times
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 14, 2023, 2:26 PM jay via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>> I have a client with a sol ark and it doesn’t have warm up or cool
>>> down, kind of amazing companies are going backwards in their tech.
>>>
>>>
>>> Has anyone come up with external fix for this?
>>>
>>> I am guessing the internal relay on the sol ark switches closed when
>>> it sees the correct volts/hz and opens the sol ark relay when it sends 
>>> the
>>> off signal.
>>>
>>> If thats correct I  can pretty easily use a delay relay on the off
>>> cycle assuming the on signal has a time window to allow for this delay 
>>> in
>>> sending power to the inverter.
>>>
>>>  The on delay I don’t see anyway unless I use a contactor with on
>>> delay relay.
>>>
>>> Maybe there is a off the shelf generator transfer switch that has
>>> this built in?
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance
>>>
>>> Jay
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Franklin Home Power

[jay via RE-wrenches]

I recently saw this.  I haven’t used either, but its looks well done.  

https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-powerpro-ess-14-3-28-6kwh-capacity-eg4-18kpv-eg4-powerpro-wallmount-battery-9540-pending/
 




> On Sep 16, 2023, at 5:02 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> I would definitely consider Sol-Ark if there were a NEMA 3R wall-mountable 
> 48V battery on the market. I'm having a hard time finding that.
> 
> For what it's worth, Franklin got back to me and they fully and 
> enthusiastically will support an off-grid system. There is no question that 
> they are making inroads. We are getting requests from clients for their brand 
> specifically. That said, I agree that there is significant risk in trying out 
> a newcomer for an important project, but I'm running out of options.
> 
> Jason Szumlanski
> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 11:24 PM Jerry Shafer  > wrote:
> Jason, Wrenches
> I am familiar with Franklin and when I asked them about the battery they had 
> all the answers but when I asked about the AC coupled inverter inside, mainly 
> who made it is it field serviceable I got deer in the headlights and a few 
> weeks later I asked them the same thing and again no answer. I would go with 
> something that has been around some. You talked about Solark, I have had no 
> issues with any of their inverters and my latest install was today connected 
> to a fortress. Of course time will tell on anything we use, Maybe franklin 
> has made it known what is inside but for me I will not use my customers as 
> unknowing guinea pigs, I test products myself and see what survives.
> Jerry
> 
> On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 1:35 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches 
>  > wrote:
> Does anyone know if Franklin supports their AC-coupled battery solution in a 
> completely off-grid scenario (no grid present)?
> 
> I need to install a demonstration system with ~40kWh capacity to run loads in 
> an outdoor off-grid facility. It needs to be wall mounted, NEMA 3R, and have 
> 10kW AC output rating minimum. Aesthetics are important.
> 
> I'm contemplating installing an Enphase 5P battery system, but it's not 
> officially supported, even though I believe I can trick the system enough to 
> get it commissioned and running in off-grid mode. If Franklin supports this, 
> that's a checkmark in their column of the comparison chart.
> 
> I'm not opposed to a 48V DC battery system with a Sol-Ark 15k or something 
> like that, but I think my options for wall-mount, outdoor, and beautiful are 
> going to be limited.
> 
> I don't need any generator integration.
> 
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
> 
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault

[Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches]

Jerry,

Who is the maker of the Blue Planet/Outback SOC box interface you mention?

On Sat, Sep 16, 2023 at 9:30 AM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Mac, wrenches
> SMA and fortress can only open loop and with a fixed temp sender its fine.
> Now on the blue planet and open loop with outback, you need a SOC box that
> they can make for you, it will interface with the blue planet and command
> the genny.
> Fun times
>
> On Sat, Sep 16, 2023, 6:04 AM Mac Lewis  wrote:
>
>> Hi William,
>>
>> Are you doing open loop or closed loop communication?  I'm not sure if
>> Fortress can do a closed loop with SMA or not.
>>
>> We struggled to get the open loop to work well with some Blue Ion
>> batteries, not from a charging sense but from a sense of getting the auto
>> gen start to trigger correctly.  Basically, the SOC algorithm was always
>> way off.  For a while we were using an external voltage trigger and we
>> could get the generator to start OK before BMS shutdown.  We have since
>> added a Namaka box and are using the "Ext BMS" setting for battery type in
>> the Sunny Island and it has been working very well.
>>
>> I think the difficulty arises because the Sunny Island is so
>> State-of-Charge centric and you can't manipulate the SOC algorithm without
>> that Ext-BMS setting (and solid communication).  One weakness of the
>> ext BMS setting is that it won't fall back on Voltage settings if battery
>> communication goes down, but this is a weakness throughout closed loop
>> communication for many manufacturers.
>>
>> Let us know if there is a Fortress to SMA communication solution.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 11:11 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> William, Wrenches
>>> Yes I do and it does require some basic electronics to make it work
>>> correctly, you will need to remove the ttemp sender and make a
>>> resistor pack to simulate the 77 degree reading otherwise it will not
>>> charge properly, for the first one I used a breadboard to set the temp for
>>> what I wanted to see then build a more solid state shrink wrap resistor.
>>> Doing this will prevent undercharge by the SMA and your customer will be
>>> happy to see the full state of charge at the batteries.
>>> OldSchool fun times
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 2:12 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>>
 Friends:



 I am commissioning an E-vault battery array to an existing SMA Sunny
 Island System.  Does anyone have any experience with this they could share?



 Thanks.



 William



 Miller Solar

 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

 805-438-5600

 www.millersolar.com

 CA Lic. 773985




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>> --
>>
>>
>>
>> Mac Lewis
>>
>> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates*
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault

[Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches]

Mac, wrenches
SMA and fortress can only open loop and with a fixed temp sender its fine.
Now on the blue planet and open loop with outback, you need a SOC box that
they can make for you, it will interface with the blue planet and command
the genny.
Fun times

On Sat, Sep 16, 2023, 6:04 AM Mac Lewis  wrote:

> Hi William,
>
> Are you doing open loop or closed loop communication?  I'm not sure if
> Fortress can do a closed loop with SMA or not.
>
> We struggled to get the open loop to work well with some Blue Ion
> batteries, not from a charging sense but from a sense of getting the auto
> gen start to trigger correctly.  Basically, the SOC algorithm was always
> way off.  For a while we were using an external voltage trigger and we
> could get the generator to start OK before BMS shutdown.  We have since
> added a Namaka box and are using the "Ext BMS" setting for battery type in
> the Sunny Island and it has been working very well.
>
> I think the difficulty arises because the Sunny Island is so
> State-of-Charge centric and you can't manipulate the SOC algorithm without
> that Ext-BMS setting (and solid communication).  One weakness of the
> ext BMS setting is that it won't fall back on Voltage settings if battery
> communication goes down, but this is a weakness throughout closed loop
> communication for many manufacturers.
>
> Let us know if there is a Fortress to SMA communication solution.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 11:11 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> William, Wrenches
>> Yes I do and it does require some basic electronics to make it work
>> correctly, you will need to remove the ttemp sender and make a
>> resistor pack to simulate the 77 degree reading otherwise it will not
>> charge properly, for the first one I used a breadboard to set the temp for
>> what I wanted to see then build a more solid state shrink wrap resistor.
>> Doing this will prevent undercharge by the SMA and your customer will be
>> happy to see the full state of charge at the batteries.
>> OldSchool fun times
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 2:12 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Friends:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am commissioning an E-vault battery array to an existing SMA Sunny
>>> Island System.  Does anyone have any experience with this they could share?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> William
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Miller Solar
>>>
>>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>>
>>> 805-438-5600
>>>
>>> www.millersolar.com
>>>
>>> CA Lic. 773985
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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> --
>
>
>
> Mac Lewis
>
> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates*
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island/Fortress E-vault

[Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches]

Hi William,

Are you doing open loop or closed loop communication?  I'm not sure if
Fortress can do a closed loop with SMA or not.

We struggled to get the open loop to work well with some Blue Ion
batteries, not from a charging sense but from a sense of getting the auto
gen start to trigger correctly.  Basically, the SOC algorithm was always
way off.  For a while we were using an external voltage trigger and we
could get the generator to start OK before BMS shutdown.  We have since
added a Namaka box and are using the "Ext BMS" setting for battery type in
the Sunny Island and it has been working very well.

I think the difficulty arises because the Sunny Island is so
State-of-Charge centric and you can't manipulate the SOC algorithm without
that Ext-BMS setting (and solid communication).  One weakness of the
ext BMS setting is that it won't fall back on Voltage settings if battery
communication goes down, but this is a weakness throughout closed loop
communication for many manufacturers.

Let us know if there is a Fortress to SMA communication solution.





On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 11:11 PM Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> William, Wrenches
> Yes I do and it does require some basic electronics to make it work
> correctly, you will need to remove the ttemp sender and make a
> resistor pack to simulate the 77 degree reading otherwise it will not
> charge properly, for the first one I used a breadboard to set the temp for
> what I wanted to see then build a more solid state shrink wrap resistor.
> Doing this will prevent undercharge by the SMA and your customer will be
> happy to see the full state of charge at the batteries.
> OldSchool fun times
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 2:12 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Friends:
>>
>>
>>
>> I am commissioning an E-vault battery array to an existing SMA Sunny
>> Island System.  Does anyone have any experience with this they could share?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>>
>>
>> William
>>
>>
>>
>> Miller Solar
>>
>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>
>> 805-438-5600
>>
>> www.millersolar.com
>>
>> CA Lic. 773985
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
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>>
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-- 



Mac Lewis

*"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates*
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Franklin Home Power

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

I would definitely consider Sol-Ark if there were a NEMA 3R wall-mountable
48V battery on the market. I'm having a hard time finding that.

For what it's worth, Franklin got back to me and they fully and
enthusiastically will support an off-grid system. There is no question that
they are making inroads. We are getting requests from clients for their
brand specifically. That said, I agree that there is significant risk in
trying out a newcomer for an important project, but I'm running out of
options.

Jason Szumlanski
Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956


On Fri, Sep 15, 2023 at 11:24 PM Jerry Shafer 
wrote:

> Jason, Wrenches
> I am familiar with Franklin and when I asked them about the battery they
> had all the answers but when I asked about the AC coupled inverter inside,
> mainly who made it is it field serviceable I got deer in the headlights and
> a few weeks later I asked them the same thing and again no answer. I would
> go with something that has been around some. You talked about Solark, I
> have had no issues with any of their inverters and my latest install was
> today connected to a fortress. Of course time will tell on anything we use,
> Maybe franklin has made it known what is inside but for me I will not use
> my customers as unknowing guinea pigs, I test products myself and see what
> survives.
> Jerry
>
> On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 1:35 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Does anyone know if Franklin supports their AC-coupled battery solution
>> in a completely off-grid scenario (no grid present)?
>>
>> I need to install a demonstration system with ~40kWh capacity to run
>> loads in an outdoor off-grid facility. It needs to be wall mounted, NEMA
>> 3R, and have 10kW AC output rating minimum. Aesthetics are important.
>>
>> I'm contemplating installing an Enphase 5P battery system, but it's not
>> officially supported, even though I believe I can trick the system enough
>> to get it commissioned and running in off-grid mode. If Franklin supports
>> this, that's a checkmark in their column of the comparison chart.
>>
>> I'm not opposed to a 48V DC battery system with a Sol-Ark 15k or
>> something like that, but I think my options for wall-mount, outdoor, and
>> beautiful are going to be limited.
>>
>> I don't need any generator integration.
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Florida Solar Design Group
>>
>>
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