Re: [RE-wrenches] How many times can a rafter have a lag screw put in and out before it is no longer structurally sound? Some roofs getting their 3rd set of new shingles

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Scot:



Fascinating question.  It’s a bit ironic that the changing climate is
damaging the equipment we are utilizing to combat climate change.



A lag unscrewed will damage a wooden member less than a lag ripped out.
>From your post it seems we are dealing with the former, rather than the
latter.



If your layout isn’t changing there is a likelihood that the new mounting
locations will be at our near the old mounting locations.  This will be
true for a rafter lag or deck mount screw.  It seems to me the process of
re-screwing in the same spot in a rafter is just as questionable as
re-screwing in the same spot in sheeting.  I see no benefit in deck
mounting and many disadvantages.



If severe weather is an issue I would avoid deck mounting unless you have
vetted the decking and the applicability of the chosen fasteners to that
material.  I would not standing-seam mount without knowing how the sheeting
panels are secured and finding a method to calculate how many clips are
needed given the increasing wind loads.



I see two questions about reinstalling screws repeatedly:

1.   Is the rafter less able to support loads?  Or,

2.   Is the rafter (or decking) less able to retain the fasteners holding
the PV to the roof?



Speculation on the above:

1.   Wood fibers adhere to each other.  They are not like a bundle of
straws.  If you damage a fiber in one place, it is supported on either side
of the point of damage by this adherence.  My guess is by just withdrawing
screws a few times you do not compromise the load handling ability of a
rafter member.  Site built rafters require different considerations than
trusses.  Site built are a wild-card and need to be considered on a
case-by-case basis.

2.   If you penetrate wood with screws multiple times in a small area, you
are going to make that area “soft.”  Screw holding capabilities will be
drastically reduced.



Options that I see:



1.   Flashed stanchions.  The lags never need to be removed.

2.   Blocking, to attach in new locations.

3.   Sistering, again to attach in new locations.

4.   Not deck mounting (IMHO).



Anecdote:  We had a tile roof mount inspected one August afternoon.  The
inspector insisted on looking in the attic.  We asked why and he said this
city has a particular concern about structural integrity of wood framed
roofs.  I was aware of this because I have had some silly arguments about
this with the lead inspector.  Apparently they have seen a lot of big-box
solar company installers drive lags carelessly and had the lags blow out
the side of the rafter.  If they spot this they make the installer hire an
engineer and design a system to sister the rafters to engineering
standards.  I totally get this concern.  We use a rafter locator and are
really careful.  This is not to say we have not had a blow out now and
then.  You gotta have a feel for the torque resistance of a lag while
seating.



Thank you for bringing this up.  As I said, fascinating (to this wonk).



William



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Scot Arey via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Wednesday, May 29, 2024 3:16 PM
*To:* 'RE-wrenches'
*Cc:* scot.a...@solarcentex.com
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] How many times can a rafter have a lag screw put
in and out before it is no longer structurally sound? Some roofs getting
their 3rd set of new shingles



With all our Texas hail storms, we now have roof solar systems that might
have to come down for the third time as hail-pockmarked shingles need
replacement. We’re at the 11-year mark of doing business and we have some
customers ready for another insurance roof claim,



So that means a new set of lag screws drilled into rafters…after how many
times is that 2x6 rafter not 2x6 strength?

I’ve asked this to my 3rd party structural engineer and instead of an
answer got a “wow, hadn’t thought of that.” We’ve considered going to deck
mounts to avoid rafters at the 3rd “detach and reset.”

Any of you guys consider this and have your techniques? I suppose in
perfect world, the mount would stay in place and roofer would shingle
around it but we still use old-school metal flashing so that is really not
possible. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Simpliphi Phi 3.8 48V Case Color

[Roland - RES via RE-wrenches]

The first white cases that came into the market were for the AmpliPhi model which had coms for closed loop.Later on they stopped manufacturing the black polypropylene case on all models, all models now come in the white power coated steel case. Which is a bummer here in Hawaii, we liked the black case for rust issues, we have started to have rust issues on the white cases, I believe it had something to do with 9540a testing for fire propagation. We have done up to 24 (no comms) in parallel, I don't believe SimpliPhi gives a max.Roland ShackelfordPresident / OwnerNABCEP PVIP #091209-162Office 808.775.7410Mobile 808.938.9239Power Solutions for Generations Renewable Energy Services, Inc." Where there is integrity, there will be trust. Where there is trust, there will be an atmosphere for success." - SadhguruOn May 29, 2024, at 1:16 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches  wrote:Is there a difference in the batteries in a white case vs. black case? Are they compatible in terms of paralleling them?Secondary question - I can't find the maximum number of these batteries in parallel. Is anyone aware of the capacity limit?Jason SzumlanskiFlorida Solar Design Group
___List sponsored by Redwood AlliancePay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.orgList Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgThere are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Small Wind Thread

[Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenches]

We installed 5 or 6 in Colorado.
I know of 3 still operating


Jeremy Rodriguez
Solar Installation / Design
All Solar, Inc.
1453 M St.
Penrose Colorado 81240

Sent by Jeremy's iPhone. Sorry for typos and shorthand.

On May 29, 2024, at 6:45 PM, John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


Thanks Dan for the suggestion
Anyone out there know of a PIKA T701 wind turbine currently flying.
Supposedly 100 were made and there may be 20 or more in Alaska but I only know 
of 2 in Vermont and would like to hear from other users.

John Blittersdorf
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™
CV Wind Service (and solar)
200 West Road
N Chittenden, VT 05763
802-770-8625
www.offgridvermont.com
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[RE-wrenches] Small Wind Thread

[John Blittersdorf via RE-wrenches]

Thanks Dan for the suggestion
Anyone out there know of a PIKA T701 wind turbine currently flying.
Supposedly 100 were made and there may be 20 or more in Alaska but I only
know of 2 in Vermont and would like to hear from other users.

John Blittersdorf

NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™

CV Wind Service (and solar)

200 West Road

N Chittenden, VT 05763

802-770-8625

www.offgridvermont.com
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Re: [RE-wrenches] How many times can a rafter have a lag screw put in and out before it is no longer structurally sound? Some roofs getting their 3rd set of new shingles

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi Scot

What a fascinating issue. 
I can’t help as to the structural concerns but I like the deck mounts idea to 
make sure you don’t have any issues. 

Jay

> On May 29, 2024, at 4:17 PM, Scot Arey via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> With all our Texas hail storms, we now have roof solar systems that might 
> have to come down for the third time as hail-pockmarked shingles need 
> replacement. We’re at the 11-year mark of doing business and we have some 
> customers ready for another insurance roof claim,
>  
> So that means a new set of lag screws drilled into rafters…after how many 
> times is that 2x6 rafter not 2x6 strength?
> 
> I’ve asked this to my 3rd party structural engineer and instead of an answer 
> got a “wow, hadn’t thought of that.” We’ve considered going to deck mounts to 
> avoid rafters at the 3rd “detach and reset.”
> 
> Any of you guys consider this and have your techniques? I suppose in perfect 
> world, the mount would stay in place and roofer would shingle around it but 
> we still use old-school metal flashing so that is really not possible. I look 
> forward to hearing your thoughts on this.
>  
> 
>  
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Simpliphi Phi 3.8 48V Case Color

[Ray Walters via RE-wrenches]

Black case 48v are older, probably in the 5 to 6 year range. I can't 
comment on exactly when they made the change from black plastic to white 
metal, but I just did a warranty replacement of old black plastic models 
with new white metal ones. I would think paralleling would not be a good 
idea, because of the age difference. As with lead acid, you probably 
could get away with it, but I don't think they would charge and 
discharge evenly. IMHO, those are too expensive to play with.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar

On 5/29/2024 5:14 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote:
Is there a difference in the batteries in a white case vs. black case? 
Are they compatible in terms of paralleling them?


Secondary question - I can't find the maximum number of these 
batteries in parallel. Is anyone aware of the capacity limit?



Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group
*

*

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Simpliphi Phi 3.8 48V Case Color

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches]

All I can add is get the closed loop version with electronics that can 
interface. It is a huge improvement over open loop.


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
   [1]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [2]  [1]
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On 2024-05-29 9:10 am, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches wrote:

I was under impression that white case has a communication and black 
has none.  Some inverters can communicate some can not with the white 
case.  On a new project have matched inverter and battery.


On Wed, May 29, 2024, 6:15 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


Is there a difference in the batteries in a white case vs. black case? 
Are they compatible in terms of paralleling them?


Secondary question - I can't find the maximum number of these 
batteries in parallel. Is anyone aware of the capacity limit?


Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group

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Links:
--
[1] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
[2] https://offgridsolar1.com/___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Simpliphi Phi 3.8 48V Case Color

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

I was under impression that white case has a communication and black has
none.  Some inverters can communicate some can not with the white case.  On
a new project have matched inverter and battery.

On Wed, May 29, 2024, 6:15 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Is there a difference in the batteries in a white case vs. black case? Are
> they compatible in terms of paralleling them?
>
> Secondary question - I can't find the maximum number of these batteries in
> parallel. Is anyone aware of the capacity limit?
>
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
>
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Simpliphi Phi 3.8 48V Case Color

[Lloyd Hoffstatter via RE-wrenches]

Hi Jason,

It looks like all the black casings are 12 or 24 Volt.

White 3.8kW @ 48V nom. are either AmpliPhi (with comms.) or SimpliPhi without. 
They can't be mixed.

Not sure of the maximum number, but UL 9540 listing up to 3 x BOSS.12 with 12 
batteries each.

Best regards,
Lloyd


Lloyd Hoffstatter, M.S. Applied Solar Energy

Director, Sunstruck Consulting

ll...@sunstruckconsulting.com

845-657-8132 (office)

914-844-3404 (cell)




From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of 
Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches 
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2024 7:14 AM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: Jason Szumlanski 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Simpliphi Phi 3.8 48V Case Color

Is there a difference in the batteries in a white case vs. black case? Are they 
compatible in terms of paralleling them?

Secondary question - I can't find the maximum number of these batteries in 
parallel. Is anyone aware of the capacity limit?


Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group



BOSS.12 ul-9540-atm-with-model-number-detail.pdf
Description: BOSS.12 ul-9540-atm-with-model-number-detail.pdf
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[RE-wrenches] Simpliphi Phi 3.8 48V Case Color

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

Is there a difference in the batteries in a white case vs. black case? Are
they compatible in terms of paralleling them?

Secondary question - I can't find the maximum number of these batteries in
parallel. Is anyone aware of the capacity limit?


Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group
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