Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding

[Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches]

2020 NEC® identification requirements in 690.31(B)(2) state that "Only
solidly grounded PV system dc circuit conductors shall be marked in
accordance with 200.6." (200.6 is Means of Identifying Grounded Conductors")

If the circuit is nonsolidly grounded, then positive conductors can be
identified with +, POSITIVE, or POS if color coding is not being used; if
it is, they can be any color other than green white or gray. Nonsolidly
grounded negative conductors can be identified with -, NEGATIVE, or NEG if
color coding is not being used; if it is they can be any color other than
green, white, gray, or red.

Brian Mehalic
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59
National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member
(520) 204-6639

Solar Energy International
http://www.solarenergy.org



On Wed, Jun 5, 2024 at 2:08 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Friends:
>
>
>
> On a related subject, I was researching the question: What color should my
> grounded PV conductor be?
>
>
>
> History:
>
>
>
> In the beginning, negative leads were always black.
>
>
>
> When it became apparent that negative PV leads were indeed grounded, the
> requirement to have them white or grey became enforced per 200.6(A)(3).
>
>
>
> When transformerless inverters were implemented it was assumed the
> negative was floating, so white/grey was no longer acceptable.
>
>
>
> Then the NEC recognized that some leads were kind of grounded, not
> solidly, but through some components, either OCPD, resistors, sensor or a
> combination.  A new term was created,  functionally grounded.  This
> grounding was most often done to implement ground fault detection and
> interruption, or GFDI.  I always assumed that if PV equipment had GFDI it
> had to feature a grounded polarity, most often indirectly, or functionally.
>
>
>
> Grounded conductors need to be white or grey.  Therefore we are back to
> needing grey/white, most often for the negative lead.
>
>
>
> I wanted to verify if the Sol-Arc PV inputs established a grounded lead.
> They have GFDI so I assumed it likely they did.  In order to verify, I
> called Sol-Arc.  Their tech support had no idea what I was talking about.
> They did not know the term functionally grounded and could not verify if
> their equipment established a ground connection, solid or otherwise, to
> either polarity.
>
>
>
> This distinction applies here because it may help determine what is
> causing the GFDI fault.  I can’t tell you for sure if one side of the PV
> circuit is functionally grounded, but if it is, grounding it elsewhere will
> defeat the GFDI and may cause nuisance tripping.
>
>
>
> Does anyone know if Sol-Arc PV inputs have a functional ground bond?
>
>
>
> Side note:  I called my local Greentech distributor, who sells plenty of
> Sol-Arc inverters and asked if they carried white PV wire.  They said none
> of their customers are asking for white PV wire.  I suspect they should be
> using white for negative leads.  I can’t confirm that because Sol-Arc can’t
> tell me it the PV circuits are functionally grounded or not.  Frustrating!
>
>
>
> Fortunately the manual for Outback charge controllers specifically says
> the negative lead is functionally grounded.  So if you are installing
> Outback CCs you must use white or grey.  PV-Cables sells white PV wire.
>
>
>
> Confusing?  Yeah, a bit.  But as my local roofing companies say:  “Solar?
> It can’t be that complicated!”
>
>
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 5, 2024 6:02 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding
>
>
>
> Can anybody clarify the following instruction from the manual?
>
>
>
> "GND the panel MOUNTS/FRAMES to any GND outside the circuit via 12AWG wire"
>
>
>
> Does this mean do not connect the array equipment grounding conductor to
> the grounding terminal in the inverter? Where would be the suggested place
> to connect the equipment grounding conductor, and why does it make a
> difference? It would still be electrically bonded to the grounding terminal
> in the inverter.
>
>
>
> I'm asking because I do, in fact, have an equipment grounding conductor
> from the array connected to the ground terminal in the inverter at a home.
> I am getting an F08 GFDI fault. The manual doesn't say anything about the
> DC side with respect to this error. It suggests it is an AC current leakage
> to ground. But Sol-Ark tech support suggested that I disconnect the PV to
> rule it out as a source of the fault.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Jason Szumlanski
>
> Florida Solar Design Group
> ___
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>
> Pay optional member dues here: 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Large Residence ESS and NFPA 855

[Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches]

I'm not looking at the most recent editions right, but the previous
versions of both 855 and the IRC both have statements to the effect of "ESS
installations exceeding the permitted individual or aggregate ratings shall
be installed in accordance with Section xxx" (pointing to the IFC in the
case of the IRC, and pointing to Chapters 4-9 in the case of 855), in other
words basically follow the (more onerous) rules for ESS on other than one-
and two-family dwellings.

Brian Mehalic
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59
National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member
(520) 204-6639

Solar Energy International
http://www.solarenergy.org



On Thu, May 30, 2024 at 3:17 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Has anyone dealt with a large ESS installation that exceeds the aggregate
> storage limits in NFPA 855? The limits are quite low for very large single
> family homes. I have a situation where we need 120 kWh minimum for an
> off-grid home. There is a building dedicated for the inverters and
> batteries that is 400 feet from the main home. The intent was to house the
> batteries there, but we are in excess of the 80 kWh limit for an accessory
> structure. It would be impractical to house part of the batteries on an
> exterior wall.
>
> Are there any "loopholes" that might allow this larger ESS for this
> property? And if not, has anyone attempted to comply with Ch 4-9? That
> seems onerous.
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC interpretation/guidance?

[Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches]

Are they the Amohenol UTX connectors? SW had a recall on them, sounds like about the right timeframe. BREAKING: SolarWorld recalls PV modules with Amphenol connectorspv-magazine-usa.comBrianOn Nov 9, 2023, at 4:47 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches  wrote:

  

  
  
12 Ga wire is not going to catch on fire, but the MC connectors
  might.  I just went back on a 7 yr old Solarworld install, and had
  a bad series MC connector (module to module).  It got quite
  crispy, deforming and bubbling the plastic on both sides of the
  connection.  It was still passing current; I didn't get a chance
  to measure the volt drop.  It was completely plugged in, so not an
  installation issue.  
This was not one of our connectors made up in the field, these
  were Solarworld factory connectors on both sides, same model
  modules.  That also means no mismatch of "MC4" connector type.  
10+ amps continuous, moist environment, 30F+  hotter than ambient
  temp, all are tough on connectors.  I predict more connector
  failures as module current ratings increase.
Ray Walters
  Remote Solar

On 11/9/2023 3:02 PM, Glenn Burt via
  RE-wrenches wrote:


  
  
  
  
  
Good luck trying to convince your customer
  that their house caught on fire because of a manufacturers
  flaw, and you have no responsibility for it…
It may be an out to shift the blame, but it
  only makes everybody get some on them…
 

  
From: RE-wrenches
   On
Behalf Of William Miller via RE-wrenches
  Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2023 12:14 PM
  To: RE-wrenches
  
  Cc: William Miller 
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high
  current modules? NEC interpretation/guidance?
  

 
George:
 
Appliance
manufacturers have their own requirements that are not the
same as the NEC requirements.  As long as you are not
modifying the manufactured assembly you are not responsible
for compliance of that appliance.  By appliance, I mean the
solar module, microinverter, etc.
 
William
Miller
 

  Miller
  Solar
  17395
  Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
  805-438-5600
  www.millersolar.com
  CA
  Lic. 773985
   

 

  
From:
RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]
On Behalf Of George McClellan via RE-wrenches
Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2023 9:06 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Cc: George McClellan
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high
current modules? NEC interpretation/guidance?
  

 
Team;
 
With the move to larger cells, some modules
  have an Isc that is pushing the limits of 12 AWG wire.  If I
  apply the rule of 156% (or 125% solar derate*125% continuous
  load derate) to an 18 Amp Isc module this will exceed the 25A
  that a 12 AWG wire can carry.  I understand that the homeruns
  will need to be a larger AWG (10 ga), but do the solar module
  cables (from junction box to MC4) also need to be larger?  Any
  guidance or reference material would be greatly appreciated.
 
Thx,
 

  George McClellan | Senior Technical Sales
Manager | REC Americas LLC 
  330
James Way Ste 150 | Pismo Beach, CA
93449 | USA
  Cell phone +1 805 704 3226 | Fax +1 805
357 6104 
  www.recgroup.com
| george.mcclel...@recgroup.com
   

 



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Silfab

[Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches]

For real I was about to ask the same question for a friend that got a quote 
with Sulfab mods…any feedback greatly appreciated!

Brian

> On Aug 21, 2023, at 8:22 PM, Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi All,
> I have heard mixed comments about Silfab modules.  If anyone has experience 
> with these panels, I would appreciate any feedback available.
> Thanks,
> Howie Michaelson
> Sun Catcher
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Cell Cracks

[Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches]

I had the same experience as the older post you referenced with these mods on 2 MW system. Lots of burn marks and shattered glass, located at the edges of cells. And under thermal imaging there were clearly lots of issues, including ones that hadn’t (yet) manifested themselves to the naked eye. The mods were quite concave - a straight edge across the short side showed almost a half inch of concavity. I would have a very hard time using them again. Ok, let me rephrase - I would not. BrianOn Jul 12, 2023, at 6:14 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches  wrote:I was searching the forums for information on Peimar modules and this is all that came up. Does anyone have any experience with recently produced PERC modules from them? They are being offered through my distribution network at an attractive price, but I am a bit skeptical.Jason SzumlanskiOn Tue, Aug 14, 2018, 12:38 PM Luke Christy  wrote:Ray,I just saw the same sort of thing on 2-year-old Peimar modules. In my case, there were visible hot spots that had burned through the backsheet in several places on several modules. In some places it was just small blisters, in others there was a clearly melted area of the backsheet. The hot spots seemed clearly associated with the cells that had cracks, but they were always at the edges and corners of cells. Unfortunately I did not have access to an IR camera to view them under load in the sun. The manufacturer replaced them under warranty, but I’m not pleased with these modules at all.
-Luke ChristyNABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional™:     Solar Gain Services, LLCPO Box 531Monte Vista, CO. 81144sgsrenewab...@gmail.com719.588.3044www.sgsrenewables.com

Hi All;

I've had a colleague ask that I post a couple pictures of what appears to be cracks in cells under the glass.  The glass is not damaged.  These are Sun Edison modules, so apparently no warranty.  Has anyone seen this, and are these possibly dangerous (hot spots) or is this nothing to worry about?  An Infrared camera did not show any issues.

As always your invaluable input is always appreciated.

Thanks,

-- 
Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

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<20171012_134319.jpg>___List sponsored by Redwood AllianceList Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htmlList rules & etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org___
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___List sponsored by Redwood AlliancePay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.orgList Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address & settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgThere are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other:https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules & etiquette:http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:http://www.members.re-wrenches.org___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Underground fault finder

[Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches]

Not sure about rental sources in your area, but there are two options:

1) An underground cable fault locator, aka a "thumper," which only works on
direct buried cables. It is a destructive test (at the fault location), and
should only be performed when there is a known fault in order to locate it.
It requires "walking" the cable run with a sensing device to hear the
"thump" generated by the high current/high voltage induced on the line.

2) A time domain reflectometer (TDR), which is sort of like radar in that
low energy signals are reflected by changes in cable impedance; it is
non-destructive, but also not as accurate in terms of the location
(providing a cable length to the fault, rather than a "thump" at the actual
fault location) and typically cannot see higher resistance (≈>200 MΩ)
faults that the thumper can.

Brian Mehalic
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59
National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member
(520) 204-6639

Solar Energy International
http://www.solarenergy.org



On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:27 AM Matt Sherald via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi Drake,
>
> I've rented a set-up from my electrical supply house.  I'd check to see if
> Scott Electric/Advantage Rental serves your part of Ohio.
>
> If memory serves, it is two pieces of equipment that you need.  One to
> trace the line and a second to find the fault.
>
> -Matt
>
> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 11:20 AM Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> I understand that there is a tool that locates underground faults in
>> buried cables. No one in our area has one. There are high tech cable
>> tracers now, but they don't advertise that they can find underground
>> breaks in wires.
>>
>> One company online had one that advertised that function. The entire kit
>> came to $5 or $6K.
>>
>> Does anyone know where one can be rented.
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Drake
>>
>> Drake Chamberlin
>> Athens Electric LLC
>> Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810
>> CO Master Electrician’s License 4526
>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>
> --
> Matt Sherald
> PIMBY Energy, LLC
> 304-704-5943
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] absolyte GP battery question/ sideways mounting.

[Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches]

They do make a "single cell module" version that is upright, in a steel
case, with the terminals on top; its top is a different color and
dimensions than the front of the rack-mounted ones in their literature.

Brian Mehalic
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59
National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member
(520) 204-6639

Solar Energy International
http://www.solarenergy.org



On Mon, Feb 20, 2023 at 3:13 PM Bradley Bassett via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Flat is the preferred orientation and they say that if installed with the
> cells vertical it would lose some small percentage of capacity. They never
> said anything about reduced life that I remember. It is very easy to have
> short life on these if not fully charged very often. The will sulphate very
> easily.  Also quality is not what it had been.
>
>  Brad
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Feb 20, 2023, at 1:43 PM, jay via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
> >
> > HI All,
> >
> > I was just contacted by someone who has a 6 yr old absolyte GP 100G33
> battery that has lost a lot of capacity.
> >
> > The manual only lists a horizontal install, but this was installed on
> its side which I”m guessing was due to space issues.
> >
> > I am thinking that isn’t good for it, but hopefully someone actually
> knows if this is bad for it or not.
> >
> > I have only seen pictures but am just trying to inform myself before I
> head out.  Its also possible that the settings are incorrect which could be
> the cause as well.
> >
> > Thanks in advance
> >
> > jay
> >
> >
> > ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] DC Disconnect for first responders

[Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches]

480.7 is Disconnect Methods, and addresses different scenarios and voltages
(A) is for batteries "with a voltage over 60 volts dc" requiring a
disconnect accessible to and within sight of the battery
(B) is in regards to 1- and 2-family dwellings, and doesn't specify a
voltage, just that an external, emergency disconnect is required
(C) is segmenting strings into 240 Vdc nominal or less segments, and on it
goes to (G)

I don't agree with the earlier statement in this chain (and I didn't dig up
the original thread to see it in context) - based on how the Section is
arranged; if the 60 volt requirement applied to both (A) and (B) then they
would most likely be (A)(1) and (A)(2), under an (A) heading that included
a statement to the effect of "For stationary storage batteries of 60 volts
blah blah the following shall apply."

As it is now, the emergency disconnect requirement (B) doesn't specify a
voltage above which it applies, and the voltage specification in (A)
doesn't apply to (B).

Cheers,

Brian Mehalic
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59
National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member
(520) 204-6639

Solar Energy International
http://www.solarenergy.org



On Mon, Feb 20, 2023 at 11:40 AM James Jarvis via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Did they ever explain why they were requiring it on a nominal 48 volt
> system? NEC 480.7(B) (from memory, I think that is the right article) says
> it is for nominal voltage of 60 volts or higher. IE your 48 volt system is
> exempt.
>
> Jay pointed this out on February 3rd.
>
>
> -James Jefferson Jarvis
> APRS World, LLC
> +1-507-454-2727
> http://www.aprsworld.com/
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 20, 2023 at 12:36 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Friends:
>>
>>
>>
>> Here is how this resolved for my upcoming project:  I submitted a request
>> to the building department to waive the requirement for a DC disconnect. I
>> based the justification on the need to keep a pressure pump for the fire
>> sprinklers and a fire alarm operational.  I will supply an external AC
>> disconnect to de-energize all premise wiring except those circuits
>> mentioned above.  The request was granted.
>>
>>
>>
>> William
>>
>>
>>
>> Miller Solar
>>
>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>>
>> 805-438-5600
>>
>> www.millersolar.com
>>
>> CA Lic. 773985
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 230.46 spliced and tapped conductors

[Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches]

The requirements for power distribution blocks (PDB) to be marked “*suitable
for use on the line side*…” when installed connected in that manner in
wireways (Art. 376) and pull/junction boxes (Art. 314) have been in the
NEC® for quite a few cycles.

It looks like the additions to 230.46 in the 2020 NEC® (PDBs and
splices/pressure connectors connected to service conductors must be marked
“suitable for use…”) coincided with this explicit requirement being removed
from 314 (though it remains in 376); this makes sense - if you’re using a
PDB on the line side, well you’re connecting to some type of service
conductors, so why not cover it in Art. 230 (maybe it’ll also be removed
from 376 in 2026).

UL 1953 allows for PDBs (UL product code QPQS) to be listed for connection
on the line side, load side, or both, with those that can connect on the
line side having the marking mentioned above. Note that many have an SCCR
of 10 kA unless combined with the manufacturer-specified fuse type and size
(or smaller), and have minimum enclosure sizes that must be followed as
well. I have had a difficult time finding PDBs that are marked for use on
the line side while just using the internet (and have been too lazy to pick
up the phone thus far...plus it doesn't help that all PDBs have a line and
load side of the device regardless of whether or not they are being
connected on the line or load side of the service!).

Of course many folks are not going to want to use PDBs due to re-routing
conductors to them (if even possible) and having to shut down the utility
supply to install them. Enter pressure connectors, and the seemingly
industry-fave insulation-piercing style; unfortunately I'm not aware of any
that are available *yet* with the proper listing and markings as required
by 230.46.

A colleague that works for a large electrical product manufacturer passed
this along:





*“No test existed for qualifying single polarity connectors suitable for
line side use when this was added to the 2020 code with the January 1, 2023
date for enforcement.  A strategy and test procedure needed to be developed
and adopted by the UL CSDS working group.  Not a speedy process.  Long
story short, after developing a strategy, public comment period and voting
the standard wasn’t published until August of last year.  On average the
testing requirements take about 90 days.  To further complicate matters, I
was recently told that UL is still developing the submittal process.   I
know that there are a lot of companies currently testing products but until
the UL submittal process catches up, no one will be official.  The UL
product code is ZMWW; as companies become qualified they should show up in
the ZMWW search.  As of today, no one is listed.  This leaves power
distribution blocks as the lone connector product rated for line side use.
I know that Bussmann has some PDBs rated for line side use."So this begs
the question of whether or not NEC® 90.4(D) can be invoked (new products
not yet available at the time the Code is adopted...); PDBs already exist,
so no dice there, and it is likely that since they exist, an argument using
90.4(D) in regards to pressure connectors/splices will fall on deaf ears
because, well, use PDBs."*

Ugh.

Brian Mehalic
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59
National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member
(520) 204-6639

Solar Energy International
http://www.solarenergy.org



On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 4:26 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> As someone who does 75%+ supply-side interconnections, this kind of
> terrifies me. We have another year of NEC 2017 here, so I have time to
> prepare, but I'm watching this closely.
>
> Meter disconnects/reconnects here are difficult due to the lack of good
> utility company cooperation and the requirement for an inspection prior to
> reconnection, which leaves homeowners without power for many hours at
> times. Otherwise, I would just pop in a 200A main disconnect between the
> meter and main distribution panel and do a feeder tap for the inverter
> output between the new service disconnect and the existing distribution
> equipment. Unfortunately, that usually means bringing grounding electrodes
> and conductors up to current standards, but that's how we would be forced
> to comply if this splice/tap rule comes into effect here and there are no
> suitable products available.
>
> Side note: 200A 2-pole fusible disconnects are all but impossible to get
> here. Even 200A main breaker enclosures are very hard to find. Hurricane
> Ian didn't help that with thousands of people who had their service
> equipment under water... It has been a challenge.
>
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 7:56 PM August Goers via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects

[Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches]

Most firefighters are not electrical engineers; nor are most insurance
agents. However both of those groups are stakeholders with influence over
codes and standards. Some may say too much influence, but the fact of the
matter is that code making is a group/consensus process, and very often
none of the groups get exactly what they want (in fact sometimes a group
accepts exactly what it doesn't want to leverage that for something they
do; yes it often smacks of politics). I would appeal to y'all to submit a
proposal for the 2026 NEC® - they are due by September of this year. Better
yet would be to circulate language that this, or some other, group can work
on, agree on, write a solid technical justification for, and sign their
names to and submit - the more stakeholders that support a proposal the
more weight it has.

It seems that the PV Industry Forum, or another similar body, may again
begin work to develop PV and storage industry stakeholder-consensus PIs to
submit; in the past this was a very successful endeavor. I'll post on this
list if and when that happens so that anyone that is interested can get
involved, but don't let that possibility keep you from submitting any PIs
on your own.

Maybe in the meantime, a control system that shuts off the PV, and then the
batteries, would be worth designing.

Brian Mehalic




On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 2:10 PM James Jefferson Jarvis via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 2/1/2023 2:58 PM, Starlight via RE-wrenches wrote:
> > Have you (or any) installed surge suppression on the PV input side to
> > clamp the open circuit voltage surge?
>
> That's not where the issue is and isn't really a solution. As I
> explained in my previous e-mail, the issue is the open circuit on the
> output leaves no where for the energy in the MPPT controllers inductor
> to go and the only option is for the voltage to rise until it finds
> somewhere to go.
>
> Surge suppressors, such as sold by Midnite Solar, are nothing more than
> Metal Oxide Varistors. Or in the case of Delta, they are pieces of wire
> in sand. They require large rise in voltage before they conduct.
>
> MOVs are sometimes found on the battery side of inverters and charge
> controllers, but their clamp time and voltage before clamping requires
> additional circuitry that works faster to protect fragile semiconductors.
>
>
> If you are proposing using a surge supressor to regulate the voltage of
> an island between a charge controller and an inverter when the battery
> is disconnected, that's also a no go. Once the MOV clamps, it stays
> clamped until voltage goes essentially to zero or until it blows up.
> It's not a regulator.
>
> -
>
> To further stir the pot, it is definitely possible to design electronics
> that can deal with load dumps and survive most anything. Aerospace
> electronics come pretty close. But all that costs money and takes space
> to do. Are we comfortable with requiring $16,000 charge controllers so
> they can handle load dumps reliably from a poorly thought out NEC
> requirement? I think the fossil fuel industry would be very happy with
> the cost of renewable energy electronics being an order of magnitude
> more expensive.
>
>
>
>
> >
> > Larry Crutcher
> > Starlight Solar Power Systems
> >
> >
> >
> > On Feb 1, 2023, at 1:23 PM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches
> >  > > wrote:
> >
> > I can also backup what Jim has said, and have seen the same gear
> > destroyed by removing the battery abruptly when the controller is under
> > heavy load. They can die, and sometimes die spectacularly.
> >
> > Have seen SolArk inverters integrated MPPT controllers blow up when
> > lithium battery BMS disconnects. Not a field fixable issue.
> >
> > Just flip off the breaker when the solar is working hard and and the
> > SolArk will give up the smoke.
> >
> > Like I originally said, it’s the non talked about issue that is a big
> > issue depending on what gear your using.
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 2:49 PM James Jefferson Jarvis via RE-wrenches
> >  > > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On 2/1/2023 12:25 PM, Alex MeVay via RE-wrenches wrote:
> >  > Although our controllers are probably smaller than what you would
> be
> >  > considering in this discussion, surviving a load dump (suddenly
> >  > disconnected battery) is an engineering requirement for us, and
> > likely
> >  > would be for other responsible MFG's on this list (boB?).  The
> charge
> >  > controller can either handle full input voltage on the output, or
> >  > there is a comparator that will shut the controller down instantly
> >  > when the output voltage gets too high.
> >
> > So that's part of the picture.
> >
> > The other part of the picture is the rest of the system. The
> discussion
> > and what NEC is mandating is that the battery be disconnected. As
> > far as
> > I can tell, there 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects

[Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches]

Hey folks - love the Code, hate it, don’t care about it or follow it: it doesn’t matter to me. But if you want to change it you have to realize it is a process with rules and procedures, and posting on this list that “the NEC” should immediately “issue a memo” to do what you want or change what you don’t like has ZERO effect. BrianOn Jan 30, 2023, at 4:47 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches  wrote:
  

  
  
I don't think the discussion has forked at all.  A
solution to this problem, and it is the best solution all things
considered, including firefighter exposure to 10 ft of
conductors that I have a hard time imaging them being exposed
to,  is for the NEC to issue a memo IMMEDIATELY indicating that
this section of the code is no longer to be considered a
requirement and that the next Code cycle will eliminate this
requirement.
  
The other solutions discussed would only work for
a few configurations realistically and would introduce more
danger. Chris
  




On 1/29/2023 2:41 PM, William Miller
  via RE-wrenches wrote:


  
  
  
  
James,
Brian and others:
 
Thank
you all for the lively discussion.  I am always interested
in my colleague’s perspectives and this has been
illuminating.
 
It
appears to me the discussion has forked:  One topic is how
to deal with the reality of the new code regarding a very
narrow scenario: ESS inside of a residence.  The other topic
is: has the NEC evolved to be overly restrictive without
factual basis?
 
Regarding
the first topic, it’s in black and white that we must
provide battery disconnecting means for energy storage
systems located in one or two family homes if the battery
voltage exceeds 60 VDC.  There are very few areas that do
not adopt the NEC.  If you install ESS you will eventually
have to deal with this code requirement one way or another.
 
Due
to lax enforcement or unfamiliarity on the part of local
building departments, some of you may be able to skirt this
requirement.  This is great until something happens.  If
your non-compliant installation causes a loss, you will end
up in the defendants chair, not the building inspector.
 
Here
is how I approach these compliance conundrums:  If I could
argue the code does not apply or there is a good reason to
waive the requirement; if the building official agrees; if I
feel the installation is really and truly safe without
meeting the  requirement—only then could I proceed without
the disconnect.  Otherwise I am going to have to find a way
to comply.
 
As
contractors, each of you makes those decisions every day: 
What is safe enough for my clients?  If any of you think you
know more than the people who write the codes, then install
what you can get away with and keep your fingers crossed.  I
am not willing to live like that.
 
Regarding
the second topic: Are we being picked on by an overly
scare-mongering NFPA?  
 
What
is interesting here is that while most electrical codes are
trying to prevent house fires, this particular section is
trying to protect fire fighters after a fire starts (or an
earthquake happens or a dump truck runs into your house,
etc.).  
 
When
California first adopted roof clearances for fire fighters,
I got my feelings hurt because I was losing business and I
did not understand what it takes to fight a house fire.  I
spoke with a few fire fighters and learned about roof and
wall venting and how it is affected by prevailing winds.  I
came around to appreciate there is a real need for rooftop
fire setbacks.  
 
It
is self-evident why firefighters would not want to cut into
a wall with a demo saw if there are energized, high amperage
conductors in or on that wall.  This code requirement for
battery disconnecting means is fundamentally sensible.  That
ends the discussion for me.
 
Oh,
yeah, the charge controller blowing up thing:  Does anyone
have any factual data to share on this?  Regardless of that,
does it really matter if the charge controller is saved but
the house burns down?
 
The
islanding 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects

[Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches]

Easy buddy. First off you are wrong about where I live. And secondly your whining about being cold will win you no sympathy; old folks die in heat waves when the air conditioning fails! And if it such a big deal to you then don’t just complain - get involved in the process, since I’m sure your ideas are the absolute best and we’d all be better off if you wrote the Code. BrianOn Jan 28, 2023, at 8:02 PM, James Jarvis  wrote:Brian and William,With all due respect, I think your geographical location of California may be limiting in your understanding of the implications of local power security. Where I am in Minnesota and where I work in Alaska, loss of power and backup power can have very expensive consequences. When it is -30F outside and howling wind, buildings only have a matter of hours before their interiors will drop below freezing. A few hours after that pipes start to freeze and break. Pressurized water then starts to spray everywhere and then things can very quickly run into six-figure dollars amounts of damage. So one way of reducing this risk is by installing an ESS.Around here, prior to the latest NEC, we didn't have exterior disconnects available for anyone to shut off power. We still don't for businesses. My point is that NEC is mandating that there be zero security of a buildings electrical systems by requiring publicly accessible disconnects on backup systems. And if NEC wasn't so prescriptive, there could be slightly more secure alternatives such as a KNOXBOX or access controlled disconnects. William: I also disagree with your premise that you'll test the battery disconnect system after dark. That's not a test; that's just cheating. You had a knowledge person tell you that the MPPT controllers can and do blow up when they lose their voltage reference (battery) under load. And removing the battery from the circuit does allow the charge controllers to island with the inverter and DC loads and do other damage. I know of a telecom customer that had hundreds of thousands of dollars of damage when their battery became disconnected. If you are unwilling to test it at full load, I'd guess you know that the whole concept is a dumb idea.-James Jefferson JarvisAPRS World, LLC+1-507-454-2727http://www.aprsworld.com/On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 7:35 PM Brian Mehalic  wrote:Every single house I’ve looked at in my town has a breaker panel with a main service disconnect on the outside of the house already. So in many cases we are well beyond worrying about someone “flicking your switch!”In fact, in addition to the emergency disconnect requirement for stationary standby batteries [480.7(B)] and ESS [706.15(B)] in one- and two-family dwellings, also added in 2020 was the requirement for an emergency disconnect for services on those same one- and two-family dwellings [230.85]. Brian MehalicOn Jan 28, 2023, at 5:58 PM, James Jarvis via RE-wrenches  wrote:It would be nice if the decision was up to the owner / occupant of the property. I, for one, do not want any random person to be able to turn off my house or business with the flick of a switch. I feel strongly that there is far too much fear mongering in NEC with relation to renewable energy.-James Jefferson JarvisAPRS World, LLC+1-507-454-2727http://www.aprsworld.com/On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 6:22 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches  wrote:Esteemed wrenches:Well if my house is on fire and the entry of fire responders is delayed for lack of a disconnect, I choose having the disconnect. I can worry about the charge controllers later. Others may prioritize their charge controller over their homes…Put a cable-tie lock in the closed position to discourage kids from messing with it. Test it only after dark. WilliamOn Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 2:32 PM William Bryce  wrote:AllOne thing that no one is talking about is what happens to the MPPT charge controllers when the Battery Disconnect trips when the charge controllers are under full load. Many will blow up. Try turning off the battery breaker on a SolaArk  when the charge controllers are maxed, and see if you get lucky.On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 3:27 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches  wrote:Jeremy: Thanks for posting the code references for those that had never looked them up. Chris: What do you mean by “a disconnect for AC wiring, not specific to which or both panel types”? All: Code references are handy when receiving edicts from building officials, but not required, IMHO, for two reasons:  The contractor should already be versed in the codes and, building departments can mandate their own requirements above and beyond the code. It may seem redundant to require an AC disconnect for premise wiring as well as a DC battery disconnect.  In most cases if you disconnect the inverter from the batteries the AC power goes off.  However if the generator is running at the time, 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects

[Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches]

Every single house I’ve looked at in my town has a breaker panel with a main service disconnect on the outside of the house already. So in many cases we are well beyond worrying about someone “flicking your switch!”In fact, in addition to the emergency disconnect requirement for stationary standby batteries [480.7(B)] and ESS [706.15(B)] in one- and two-family dwellings, also added in 2020 was the requirement for an emergency disconnect for services on those same one- and two-family dwellings [230.85]. Brian MehalicOn Jan 28, 2023, at 5:58 PM, James Jarvis via RE-wrenches  wrote:It would be nice if the decision was up to the owner / occupant of the property. I, for one, do not want any random person to be able to turn off my house or business with the flick of a switch. I feel strongly that there is far too much fear mongering in NEC with relation to renewable energy.-James Jefferson JarvisAPRS World, LLC+1-507-454-2727http://www.aprsworld.com/On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 6:22 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches  wrote:Esteemed wrenches:Well if my house is on fire and the entry of fire responders is delayed for lack of a disconnect, I choose having the disconnect. I can worry about the charge controllers later. Others may prioritize their charge controller over their homes…Put a cable-tie lock in the closed position to discourage kids from messing with it. Test it only after dark. WilliamOn Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 2:32 PM William Bryce  wrote:AllOne thing that no one is talking about is what happens to the MPPT charge controllers when the Battery Disconnect trips when the charge controllers are under full load. Many will blow up. Try turning off the battery breaker on a SolaArk  when the charge controllers are maxed, and see if you get lucky.On Sat, Jan 28, 2023 at 3:27 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches  wrote:Jeremy: Thanks for posting the code references for those that had never looked them up. Chris: What do you mean by “a disconnect for AC wiring, not specific to which or both panel types”? All: Code references are handy when receiving edicts from building officials, but not required, IMHO, for two reasons:  The contractor should already be versed in the codes and, building departments can mandate their own requirements above and beyond the code. It may seem redundant to require an AC disconnect for premise wiring as well as a DC battery disconnect.  In most cases if you disconnect the inverter from the batteries the AC power goes off.  However if the generator is running at the time, some battery inverters can operate when disconnected from batteries.  So to completely de-energize all components of an off-grid home you need to disconnect the generator and the battery leads. In this case the home is required to have fire sprinklers.  There is pressure pump to provide flow to these fire sprinklers-- said pump being powered by the inverter/battery system.  I am going to apply for a waiver to remove the DC disconnect requirement on the grounds that the pressure pump is essential fire suppression equipment.  Instead I will propose to supply an AC disconnect (meeting all requirements for accessibility and marking) that will disconnect all premise wiring except the pressure pump.   By the way, I will of course be trying to apply the logic that the voltage specification is for nominal battery voltage and this project having a nominal 48 volt bank does not require the battery disconnect. I will let the group know what response I receive.  Regardless of how this works in this jurisdiction, I think these are both valid arguments worth trying in any jurisdiction requiring the battery disconnect.  Some officials are amenable to dialog and negotiation and some are less so.  William Miller Miller Solar17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422805-438-5600www.millersolar.comCA Lic. 773985  From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeremy Rodriguez via RE-wrenchesSent: Saturday, January 28, 2023 10:12 AMTo: cwar...@entech-engineering.com; RE-wrenchesCc: Jeremy RodriguezSubject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects 2020 Code Language:480.7 DC Disconnect Methods.(A) Disconnecting Means. A disconnecting means shall be provided for all ungrounded conductors derived from a stationary battery system with a voltage over 60 volts dc. A disconnecting means shall be readily accessible and located within sight of the battery system.N (B) Emergency Disconnect. For one-family and two-family dwellings, a disconnecting means or its remote control for a stationary battery system shall be located at a readily accessible location outside the building for emergency use. The disconnect shall be labeled “EMERGENCY DISCONNECT”.N (C) Disconnection of Series Battery Circuits. Battery circuits exceeding 240 volts dc nominal between conductors or to ground and subject to field servicing shall have provisions 

Re: [RE-wrenches] "Qualified solar electric property"?

[Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches]

I would hope that the UL certification documentation for the products
should suffice.

Brian Mehalic
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59
National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member
(520) 204-6639

Solar Energy International
http://www.solarenergy.org

SEI Professional Services
http://www.seisolarpros.com



On Fri, Oct 21, 2022 at 12:13 PM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi folks,
> I have a client that I'm doing a larger inverter and battery upgrade.
> We're are putting in 3Sol-Ark 15k inverters and 7 Fortress 18.5kwh units.
> The client is wanting manufacturer certification that the equipment is
> "qualified solar electric property". I don't know that I've ever run across
> this type of request before or that I've seen manufacturers supply such
> documentation. Is this something that anyone is familiar with? Did I miss
> something here?
> Thanks,
> Howie
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Energy/Sensata issues

[Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches]

For what it is worth, I don't recall seeing a Magnum/Sensata booth at the
show formerly known as SPI last week.

Brian Mehalic
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59
National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member
(520) 204-6639

Solar Energy International
http://www.solarenergy.org

SEI Professional Services
http://www.seisolarpros.com



On Tue, Sep 27, 2022 at 2:53 PM Chris Daum via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi folks:
>
>
>
> Anyone else having issues regarding a total lack of tech support of Magnum
> products?  We have a failed MS2812 inverter a customer bought last
> September of 2021, and we’ve tried repeatedly since August 16 to get any
> response.  All we hear back is their auto-responder saying ‘they will be
> in touch with us shortly’.
>
>
>
> Frustrating!
>
>
>
> Chris Daum
>
> Oasis Montana Inc.
>
> 406-777-4309
>
> 406-777-4309 fax
>
> www.oasismontana.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Plumbing/Mechanical Code for obstructions above plumbing vents

[Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches]

The 2021 IPC (Section 903) requires vents to terminate at the height
specified by the AHJ (in fact the text of the document literally says "not
less than [NUMBER] inches (mm) above the roof" which I believe in general
is based on 6 inches above anticipated snow cover.


The 2021 IPC also specifically addresses things like PV modules over vents
- when the vent is covered, like by a PV module, and thus cannot be covered
by snow, the vent can terminate 2 inches above a sloped roof. There must be
an "open area for the pipe to the outdoors" not less than the I.D. of the
pipe, and there must be means to prevent birds/rodents from
entering/blocking the pipe.


Brian Mehalic
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59
National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member
(520) 204-6639

Solar Energy International
http://www.solarenergy.org

SEI Professional Services
http://www.seisolarpros.com



On Fri, May 13, 2022 at 9:53 AM Bruce Leininger via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hello.  I'm wondering if there is a code reference for the allowable
> clearance above a plumbing vent.  I've run into several jurisdictions that
> ask for the clearance to be at least 2x the diameter of the vent pipe.  I'm
> wondering if there are any code references to back this up or any code that
> specifically prohibits obstructions (like solar panels) above plumbing
> vents.
>
> Thanks all!
>
> Bruce
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