Re: [RE-wrenches] getting PV modules up to the roof
Benn, We have many different methods to get panels up to a roof, depending on the situation. I agree, mechanical lifts take a lot of time and resources to use, for typical residential installs. Getting panels up to a residential roof quickly, easily and safely is my biggest roof install challenge. Thanks for sharing your positive appraisal of that mod lift from Homepower. I almost made one. I've only heard good things about it. However, I went a different route, and made a backpack to carry modules up a ladder, any ladder, instead. When the backpacker gets to the eave of the roof, someone else that's on the roof removes it from the backpack. The primary benefits are that it fits in a van easily, 1 minute set up, the backpacker has two hands free to climb the ladder, and after the module is removed from the pack at the roof eave, the backpacker has the option to continue onto the roof to assist in the module installation if needed (good when it's only a 2 man crew and a steep roof). No problems with wind, yet, but we only install mods in calm or light winds. See "solar pack 100" thread that I posted, for past discussion. I made a short video of it in use, but it's too much data to post here, let me know off thread and I can send it to you, if interested. But it sounds like you have a good method already. Phil Forest > On Jun 6, 2016, at 4:22 PM, Benn Kilburn <b...@skyfireenergy.com> wrote: > > I'm still using the same mod lift for the past 6-8 years, with very minor > modifications. I used the design that was in HomePower years ago. I switched > out strut for pieces of our module rack/rail to make it lighter. > Keep in mind that specific design only works with a fiberglass ladder with a > particular design top on it. We have an office in a neighbor city that built > one a bit different that works on top of a typical aluminum ladder. > > From hoist set-up, mods up, to packed up, i'd challenge anyone with one of > the mechanical module lifts to keep up on a two story roof install. One guy > can have ours set up in under 5min and you can have mods on the roof in under > a minute each, round trip (walking from the van/trailer to the lift with a > module, hoisting it, lowering the lift and back to get another module). Its > safe, fast and KISS. > > No doubt that one of the mechanical ones would be nice for much larger jobs. > And i like that some have articulating sections that can flatten out to run > parallel with some roofs. But i've seen how much room they take up. You need > an empty van or trailer just to move the pieces themselves. > > Benn Kilburn > CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc > 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 > P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com > > > >> On Thu, May 26, 2016 at 4:26 PM, Dana Brandt <d...@ecotechenergy.com> wrote: >> Hi Wrenches, >> >> I'm curious if anyone has updates to this thread 3 years later. What are >> people using to lift modules to the roof? >> >> I've been looking at ladder hoists online and wondering how well they'd work >> in practice. Any experience or advice? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Dana >> >> Dana Brandt >> Ecotech Energy Systems, LLC >> www.ecotechenergy.com >> d...@ecotechenergy.com >> 360.318.7646 >> >>> On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:44 AM, August Goers <aug...@luminalt.com> wrote: >>> Hi Wrenches, >>> >>> >>> >>> I imagine that all of us working in rooftop PV have put some good hard >>> thought on the best way to get the modules up to the roof. There are >>> various lifts on the market, you can hoist them with ropes manually, or >>> walk them up a ladder (sling them over your back). I find that the majority >>> of our competition in the Bay Area walks panels up the ladder for >>> residential projects. What is your feeling about OSHA compliance of doing >>> this? >>> >>> >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> August >>> >>> 415.559.1525 >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> List sponsored by Home Power magazine >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Options & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List-Archive: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> www.r
Re: [RE-wrenches] SIP W/ metal roof
What type of metal roof? We've used s5! Proteabracket for trapezoidal metal roof profiles. Work great. Solid. Doesn't matter if it's a SIP roof or framed roof since they fasten to the metal. And we've used their mounts for standing seam too, which also attach to the standing seam, not the roof structure. Phil Forest > On Apr 11, 2016, at 12:08 PM, Drake <drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org> > wrote: > > Hello Wrenches, > > What is the best solution for fastening arrays to SIP construction? This is a > metal roof. I have information on EcoFasten for shingle roofs. What is the > best solution for metal roofs? > > Thanks you, > > Drake > > Drake Chamberlin > Athens Electric LLC > OH License 44810 > CO License 3773 > NABCEP Certified Solar PV > 740-448-7328 > http://athens-electric.com/ > > ___ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] "Solar-Pack 100"
Answers are in your text , below: Phil Forest > On Feb 23, 2016, at 4:47 PM, Benn Kilburn <b...@skyfireenergy.com> wrote: > > So you just sit the frame of the module onto the black bar at the top of the > SP100? Yes. > > It gravity alone holding the module in place? Yes. It hooks into the module frame. 42lb module seems like plenty of weight to keep in place. > > Is mounting it onto the SP100 a one man job or do you need someone to put it > on there for you? One man. We placed the module on a 2 ft high bench, leaning against a wall, guy with the pack on, backs up to the module and hooks it onto the pack, then climbs ladder. > > Benn Kilburn > CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy Inc > 6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7 > P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 | www.skyfireenergy.com > > > >> On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 2:38 PM, Phil Forest <philfor...@me.com> wrote: >> Photos: >> >> >> >> >> >> Phil Forest >> >> > On Feb 23, 2016, at 4:29 PM, Phil Forest <philfor...@me.com> wrote: >> > >> > Wrenches, >> > It took 2 years of pondering, we finally made a backpack to carry modules >> > up a ladder. The goal was safer and easier on the body than our other >> > methods. It works. We used it for the first time yesterday, carried (16) >> > 96 cell panels up to a two story roof. Attached are a few photos of the >> > Kilty external frame backpack, retrofitted to carry panels, in landscape. >> > I'm so relieved to have a safer, better way than all the other manual ways >> > we've tried. Both hands are on the ladder, we don't get as tired when >> > hauling. >> > Please let me know if you have any suggestions for improvements. >> > >> > >> > Phil Forest >> > South Mountain Company >> > iPhone >> > >> > Phil Forest >> > ___ >> > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> > >> > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >> > >> > Change listserver email address & settings: >> > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> > >> > List-Archive: >> > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> > >> > List rules & etiquette: >> > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> > >> > Check out or update participant bios: >> > www.members.re-wrenches.org >> > >> >> ___ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> List-Archive: >> http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html >> >> List rules & etiquette: >> www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >> >> Check out or update participant bios: >> www.members.re-wrenches.org > > ___ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] "Solar-Pack 100"
Photos: Phil Forest > On Feb 23, 2016, at 4:29 PM, Phil Forest <philfor...@me.com> wrote: > > Wrenches, > It took 2 years of pondering, we finally made a backpack to carry modules up > a ladder. The goal was safer and easier on the body than our other methods. > It works. We used it for the first time yesterday, carried (16) 96 cell > panels up to a two story roof. Attached are a few photos of the Kilty > external frame backpack, retrofitted to carry panels, in landscape. > I'm so relieved to have a safer, better way than all the other manual ways > we've tried. Both hands are on the ladder, we don't get as tired when > hauling. > Please let me know if you have any suggestions for improvements. > > > Phil Forest > South Mountain Company > iPhone > > Phil Forest > ___ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] "Solar-Pack 100"
Wrenches, It took 2 years of pondering, we finally made a backpack to carry modules up a ladder. The goal was safer and easier on the body than our other methods. It works. We used it for the first time yesterday, carried (16) 96 cell panels up to a two story roof. Attached are a few photos of the Kilty external frame backpack, retrofitted to carry panels, in landscape. I'm so relieved to have a safer, better way than all the other manual ways we've tried. Both hands are on the ladder, we don't get as tired when hauling. Please let me know if you have any suggestions for improvements. Phil Forest South Mountain Company iPhone Phil Forest___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Hot water heater heat pumps
Wrenches, My take so far on this great discussion about heat pump hot water heaters (HPHW's) for domestic hot water: A HPHW powered by off-grid PV could be very effective, if there was a timer which controlled it to only operate during daylight, so it doesn't load the batteries at night. And the HPHW cools and dries the appropriately large space where installed, which food, beer and batteries are stored. Phil Forest South Mountain Company On May 26, 2015, at 5:35 PM, Tom Lane t...@ecs-solar.com wrote: The water heater heat pump tanks , I am referring to are ONLY FOR HEATING DOMESTIC HOT WATER for washing clothes , showers , baths , and dish washing . On April 15 the Feds mandated all new standards for water heaters , ALL ELECTRIC AND GAS HOT WATER HEATERS ARE NOW ABOUT TWO INCHES IN DIAMETER AND SIX INCHES TALLER that were MANUFACTURED AFTER THAT DATE . All 66 , 80 and 120 gallon electric water heaters were OUTLAWED except for Solar Hot Water Tanks and 80 gallon water heater heat pumps are allowed . The normal size 30 , 40 , and 55 gallon electric and gas water heaters are now wider and taller ! Water heater heat pump tanks are usually 55 or 50 gallons or 80 gallons and have a heat pump only , hybrid ( heat pump and electric ) , electric only and off modes - for vacation . The idiot Feds think they should be used all over the USA , however , my research , sez to only use them in hot humid climates in garages ( which they will cool and dehumidify ) in climates in the h ot humid south and East Texas . Do your own research , or look at the research done at the Florida Solar Energy Center . GatorTom PS : rumor has it that the Feds may rescind the order from their hot water Czar on 80 and 120 gallon electric water heaters ! Or maybe they will send SWAT teams into plumbing supply houses to check on that and also their outlawing brass fittings with tiny amounts of lead . Sent from my iPad ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Passive Battery Venting
Drake, Please explain what might happen if something went wrong with one battery, and the Phil Forest South Mountain Company On Oct 31, 2014, at 8:42 AM, Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote: One big advantage of not venting AGM batteries to the outside is that when something goes wrong you will know it. A well vented system could have one bad battery ruin the entire pack before the problem was detected. At 08:12 AM 10/30/2014, you wrote: To do it totally passive you will need a long (tall) pipe up the side of the building, probably painted a dark color to have the sun help warm the tube to help encourage it to vent up, not draw into the building. Put a 180 on the top to keep the rain out and a screen to keep out the bugs. With outside venting the batteries will just draw in room temperature air, if the room is 70 the battery min temp will be 70. If they are in a basement they will naturally draw in outside air, run the vent as high as you can to help prevent that. If you are using a Classic use the relay to turn the fan on and off at a specific battery voltage. Use a brushless fan and a voltage powered relay if no other choice. Do not put the relay in the battery box! Sealed batteries do need to be vented. I have seen them gas when things go wrong, not pleasant. I wouldn't do it without a fan for LA batteries but it would work for sealed. If the home has a makeup air system or huge exhaust system all bets are off. Just some thoughts, Bob Ellison -Original Message- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 8:19 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Passive Battery Venting Hi Daniel, I typically vent them the way you do, which will allow any small amount of hydrogen out. The customer is absolutely adamant about venting these to the outside. I will cooperate so long as his method doesn't compromise the system through cooling the batteries unnecessarily in the dead of winter. He is a lawyer and came to the conclusion of the need for venting to the outside from reading the NEC which says that sealed batteries require the same amount of ventilation as liquid lead acid batteries. The code also says to vent appropriate to battery technology, so the code says two conflicting things. On the other hand, it doesn't say that liquid electrolyte batteries need to be vented to the outside. They will sure stink if you vent them to the inside. Drake At 09:54 AM 10/29/2014, you wrote: I just re-read the original post Drake. These are AGM batteries. Do you have a belt, suspenders,...then a rocket pack type of client here? We typically vent our AGM boxes with small louver vents top and bottom to allow the batteries to ventilate for cooling purposes, not H2 concerns. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating InstallerTM: Cert #SH031409-13 -Original Message- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2014 11:12 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Passive Battery Venting That's why we usually have the batteries in a garage, basement, or out building that is not open to the living space. I've seen some cases of very well sealed and insulated enclosures allowing batteries to over heat, and also build up a lot of acid damaged connections. Boxes I've seen with more air space and less sealing don't get this build up, but you're correct: they do occasionally allow H2S into the surrounding area. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 10/28/2014 8:10 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: We do what we can to seal the enclosure so if or when a battery fails and really gasses off the two vents on the same wall regardless of wind direction will vent the gas. If it is not sealed then the gas can travel through out the area this is not advised. ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2247 / Virus Database: 4031/7973 - Release Date: 10/29/14 - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2247 / Virus Database: 4031/7973 - Release Date: 10/29/14
Re: [RE-wrenches] Passive Battery Venting
Drake, Please explain what might happen if something went wrong with one battery, when they are not vented to outside. How would we know it? Thank you. Phil Forest South Mountain Company On Oct 31, 2014, at 8:42 AM, Drake drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote: One big advantage of not venting AGM batteries to the outside is that when something goes wrong you will know it. A well vented system could have one bad battery ruin the entire pack before the problem was detected. At 08:12 AM 10/30/2014, you wrote: To do it totally passive you will need a long (tall) pipe up the side of the building, probably painted a dark color to have the sun help warm the tube to help encourage it to vent up, not draw into the building. Put a 180 on the top to keep the rain out and a screen to keep out the bugs. With outside venting the batteries will just draw in room temperature air, if the room is 70 the battery min temp will be 70. If they are in a basement they will naturally draw in outside air, run the vent as high as you can to help prevent that. If you are using a Classic use the relay to turn the fan on and off at a specific battery voltage. Use a brushless fan and a voltage powered relay if no other choice. Do not put the relay in the battery box! Sealed batteries do need to be vented. I have seen them gas when things go wrong, not pleasant. I wouldn't do it without a fan for LA batteries but it would work for sealed. If the home has a makeup air system or huge exhaust system all bets are off. Just some thoughts, Bob Ellison -Original Message- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 8:19 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Passive Battery Venting Hi Daniel, I typically vent them the way you do, which will allow any small amount of hydrogen out. The customer is absolutely adamant about venting these to the outside. I will cooperate so long as his method doesn't compromise the system through cooling the batteries unnecessarily in the dead of winter. He is a lawyer and came to the conclusion of the need for venting to the outside from reading the NEC which says that sealed batteries require the same amount of ventilation as liquid lead acid batteries. The code also says to vent appropriate to battery technology, so the code says two conflicting things. On the other hand, it doesn't say that liquid electrolyte batteries need to be vented to the outside. They will sure stink if you vent them to the inside. Drake At 09:54 AM 10/29/2014, you wrote: I just re-read the original post Drake. These are AGM batteries. Do you have a belt, suspenders,...then a rocket pack type of client here? We typically vent our AGM boxes with small louver vents top and bottom to allow the batteries to ventilate for cooling purposes, not H2 concerns. With Regards, Daniel Young, NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 NABCEP Certified Solar Heating InstallerTM: Cert #SH031409-13 -Original Message- From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ray Walters Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2014 11:12 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Passive Battery Venting That's why we usually have the batteries in a garage, basement, or out building that is not open to the living space. I've seen some cases of very well sealed and insulated enclosures allowing batteries to over heat, and also build up a lot of acid damaged connections. Boxes I've seen with more air space and less sealing don't get this build up, but you're correct: they do occasionally allow H2S into the surrounding area. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 10/28/2014 8:10 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote: We do what we can to seal the enclosure so if or when a battery fails and really gasses off the two vents on the same wall regardless of wind direction will vent the gas. If it is not sealed then the gas can travel through out the area this is not advised. ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2247 / Virus Database: 4031/7973 - Release Date: 10/29/14 - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2247 / Virus Database: 4031/7973
[RE-wrenches] Sonnenbatterie
The next best AC coupling device with LiFePO₄ batteries? UL listing pending. Made in Germany. I hear they are signing up US distributors. Tech training date to be announced. Does anyone have Intel on this product? http://www.sonnenbattery.com/en/strom-energie-speicher/sonnenbatterie/technical-data/ Thank you, Phil Forest South Mountain Company Phil Forest South Mountain Company___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Interconnection with Generator
Interconnecting the inverter output to the utility side of the transfer switch is not necessarily an absolute rule. A knowledgeable solar EE told me a few years back, that interconnection can be made on the load side if the inverter kW output is small compared to the generator kW, that large kW generators can produce clean AC power allowing the inverter to operate and to operate without risk of burning out the generator. I don't remember what the inverter to generator ratio needs to be, or if other criteria needs to be met. Never tried it, we always connect to the utility side. Phil Forest South Mountain Company On Oct 28, 2014, at 10:48 AM, Corey Shalanski cshalan...@joule-energy.com wrote: Wrenches, We frequently encounter residences with backup generators. The question that arises: how should the PV system be interconnected? I have searched the archives and found some good information about this subject, but nothing definitive. I have fallen into the habit of broadly proclaiming that the PV system *must* be interconnected on the utility side of the transfer switch - in order to prevent backfeeding into the generator and thereby eliminate unintentional equipment damage. Is this concern justified? If so, should this be an absolute rule or would it depend on the generator make/model? Thanks for any insights. -- Corey Shalanski Joule Energy New Orleans, LA ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC
Will, No problems with inspectors for us in MA, regarding rapid shutdown, since we recently switched to using SolarEdge central inverters with optimizer under each module, for roof mounted installs. So far so good. They seem well made and engineered. Tip: you have to enable the arc fault protection when commissioning, ships disabled. Phil Forest South Mountain Company On May 20, 2014, at 10:59 AM, Will White william.wh...@rgsenergy.com wrote: Wrenches, Is anyone else having problems with inspectors and the 2014 NEC? In Mass we’re having all kinds of issues with inspectors requiring/allowing an array of different things for 690.12 rapid shut down ranging from roof top disconnects, disconnects on the side of a house 20’ up, disconnects in attics, or only disconnects that can be activated on the ground. It varies between inspectors. We’re also having problems with one inspector requiring arc fault breakers on Enphase even though there are no UL listed arc fault breakers that can be back fed or he wants us to run the trunk cable in a raceway. It’s getting very difficult to install in Mass. Thanks, Will Will White Operations Manager - New England RGS Energy 64 Main St. |Montpelier, VT 05602 tel 802.223.7804 | mobile 802.234.3167 | fax 802.223.8980 RGSEnergy.com | william.wh...@rgsenergy.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC
All in all, not longer, glad to say. Strings can have more modules, so there's fewer home runs. Optimizer wires are longer than module wires, they even reach when installing modules in landscape, so fewer jumpers. Be thoughtful when mounting optimizers to rails so it's easy to connect after module is clamped down. Bolts that attach optimizers slide into rails from the end (UniRac SM type rails). You supply your own nuts and bolts. They supply a star washer for bonding optimizer to rail for EG. We mounted optimizers to modules on one job when using UniRac Sunframe. SunFrame is a pain in my neck, optimizers or not. Phil Forest South Mountain Company On May 20, 2014, at 1:33 PM, Will White william.wh...@rgsenergy.com wrote: Phil, Do you find that the DC optimizer adds to the amount of time on an install? Thanks, Will From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Phil Forest Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2014 1:26 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 2014 NEC Will, No problems with inspectors for us in MA, regarding rapid shutdown, since we recently switched to using SolarEdge central inverters with optimizer under each module, for roof mounted installs. So far so good. They seem well made and engineered. Tip: you have to enable the arc fault protection when commissioning, ships disabled. Phil Forest South Mountain Company On May 20, 2014, at 10:59 AM, Will White william.wh...@rgsenergy.com wrote: Wrenches, Is anyone else having problems with inspectors and the 2014 NEC? In Mass we’re having all kinds of issues with inspectors requiring/allowing an array of different things for 690.12 rapid shut down ranging from roof top disconnects, disconnects on the side of a house 20’ up, disconnects in attics, or only disconnects that can be activated on the ground. It varies between inspectors. We’re also having problems with one inspector requiring arc fault breakers on Enphase even though there are no UL listed arc fault breakers that can be back fed or he wants us to run the trunk cable in a raceway. It’s getting very difficult to install in Mass. Thanks, Will Will White Operations Manager - New England RGS Energy 64 Main St. |Montpelier, VT 05602 tel 802.223.7804 | mobile 802.234.3167 | fax 802.223.8980 RGSEnergy.com | william.wh...@rgsenergy.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change email address settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] SMA, Flexible stranded Connectors, Sleep Deprivation
We use ferrules for fine stranded wire at terminals. Www.ferrulesdirect has it all. Phil Forest South Mountain Company On Apr 30, 2014, at 3:17 PM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote: NSI has sleeves rated for fine strand specifically made for this application. They seem to be around $1 for the 2/0 version Here's a supplier. http://www.westwayelectricsupply.com/fs030-flexible-sleeve-657-i-d.html R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/30/2014 12:25 PM, William Miller wrote: Ray: Thanks for sharing the research. If you could forward to me of-line an email contact and part number I need to order for 4/0. Miller Solar On Apr 30, 2014, at 10:22 AM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote: What I'm finding in my research is that most of the manufacturers are just not keeping up with this requirement, meanwhile the use of fine stranded cable is increasing dramatically. ILSCO, BURNDY, and Quick Cable all barely mention fine strand ratings. I have their catalogs in hand. Even the SMA manual does not mention this issue, I had to call tech support. BTW, there appears to be some big name integrators just using flex cable directly. Meanwhile, I can share a pic of the one lug I torqued down, and didn't like, which lead to all this: Little copper hairs tearing, or not part of the connection at all. How did we survive the 90s stuffing welding cable into Heinemann breakers in Trace DC boxes? Also, when you go into major Electrical suppliers that sell the flex cable, and ask if the connectors are rated for fine stranding, all you get is that deer in the headlights stare. I was used to having to figure all this out in the old days of solar, but now that every electrical supplier in town is claiming to be a solar expert/ distributor, I really should be able to just walk in and get the parts I need for a Code compliant installation. If you sell the inverter and the cable, you really should stock the connector. On another note, the ferrules/ sleeves seem to be the ticket, as confirmed by Schneider. Also they appear to be 40 times cheaper than pin adapters, and don't take up extra room in the wiring compartment. Now I just have to find some TODAY. Ugh... And like Allan, I lost sleep over this issue last night. R.Ray Walters CTO, Solarray, Inc Nabcep Certified PV Installer, Licensed Master Electrician Solar Design Engineer 303 505-8760 On 4/30/2014 10:38 AM, Glenn Burt wrote: There are many available lugs that are listed for use with finely stranded conductors - this is not an excuse to not use the proper lugs and required equipment to ensure a safe and reliable installation (per the NEC). Thomas Betts is the manufacturer I use. Indeed the tool is pricey, however it is necessary to produce a compliant installation (per 110.3(B)). -Glenn -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2014 10:09 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Flexible stranded Connectors Hi ray As an FYI. Most of the lugs we all use are not rated for fine stranded wire. Quick cable is the only one I'm aware of that if you use their tool and ends says its UL for fine stranded. I prefer ferrules for those applications vs pin adapters. (Schneider XW inverter BOS box comes with arctic ultra flex wire with ferrules) Jay Peltz power On Apr 29, 2014, at 10:48 PM, Ray Walters r...@solarray.com wrote: Hi All; In order to avoid any of my work showing up in someone's slideshow of horrors, I'm trying to find the correct way to wire 3 Sunny Islands with Cobra X flex cable. While it doesn't actually mention it in the SMA manual, a call to SMA tech support confirmed my suspicions: the DC lugs in the inverter are NOT rated for flex or fine stranded cable. Both SMA and CED recommended I try Grainger's for crimp on adapters. Grainger had no clue, and nothing came up in searches there. From a trade show, I have an ILSCO lug book, that shows a crimp on pigtail adapter. It does not mention whether its flex rated though on the crimp side of the adapter, as the adapter is used primarily to land over sized cables into smaller lugs. (2/0 to #1, for instance) The best I've found so far, is NSI, which makes sleeves, that are installed around the wire, right in the connection: http://www.nsiindustries.com/products/electrical/connectors/compressio n-connectors/copper-compression/fsflex-cable-sleeve.aspx I also found a Schneider white paper recommending sleeves with their lugs: http://static.schneider-electric.us/docs/Circuit%20Protection/0515DB03 01.pdf So who has used these sleeves, and where do I get them? The sleeves seem like a decent compromise, whilst the ILSCO
Re: [RE-wrenches] Busbar 120% rule
Troy, This is my first post. We install 32 amp rated output inverters, reduce the main breaker to 175amp, or line side tap. Phil Forest South Mountain Company On Apr 2, 2014, at 1:40 PM, Troy Harvey tahar...@heliocentric.org wrote: Thanks Bill, Makes sense to me too. Splitting your current over two sections of busbar, as calculated by P=I^2R, does seem like it will in reality reduce the heat load in the load center. However, no good AHJ solutions today. We are finding the most customers have been moving towards larger systems as panel prices have fallen. If typical service is 200AMP, and that average american household usage is ~32kWh/day, that is approx. a 8kW system in most areas. And 8kW inverter * 125% means a 43AMP backfeed. Next size up is 50amp. That is bigger than 120%. This is most every project we work on these days is over 120%. So how is everyone else dealing with this? thanks, Troy Harvey On Mar 28, 2014, at 8:38 PM, Bill Brooks billbroo...@yahoo.com wrote: Dave and Troy, I don’t think JW had his facts correct on this. The standard test for a busbar is to place the highest allowable breakers directly below the main breaker to test for overtemperature of the busbar. With the requirement for Article 220 compliance of the panel, a panel that actually complies with Article 220 could go to 200% and will likely run cooler than a panel only fed by the utility. Devil’s advocates state that people violate Article 220 all the time so we need to be conservative. Make a proposal at the meeting in Golden on April 9-10 and you may become famous. Bill. From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Troy Harvey Sent: Friday, March 28, 2014 1:35 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Busbar 120% rule Very interesting. So, it is not a overcurrent risk, but a heat issue that may lead to a nuisance breaker tripping issue? On Mar 27, 2014, at 12:46 PM, Dave Click davecl...@fsec.ucf.edu wrote: I had a nice response all typed up before rediscovering my original source. Simple answer: there's still a thermal load to deal with even though there's no point on the bus seeing a current above the busbar rating. I am a linking machine today: http://www.nmsu.edu/~tdi/Photovoltaics/Codes-Stds/690.64(B)(2)Load%20Side%20Connections.pdf While this situation of connecting supply overcurrent devices at opposite ends may be safe for restricted conductors, it may not be suitable for busbars in panel boards, even though this allowance is in the 2008 NEC. Panel boards are subject to busbar current limitations and are also subject to thermal limitations due to the heating associated with the thermal trip elements in the common thermal/magnetic molded case circuit breakers. For example a 100-amp, 120/240V panel board is tested during the listing process with a 100 amp main breaker and two 100-amp load breakers (one per phase) mounted directly below the main breaker. The ambient temperature is raised to 45 degrees Celsius, the input and output currents are set at 100 amps, the temperature is allowed to stabilize, and the panel must pass this test with no deformation of any parts. If we add a backfed PV breaker pair, for example 50 amps, at the bottom of the panel, and if the loads on the panel were increased to 150 amps, no breakers would trip, no busbars would be over loaded, but the thermal load in the panel would be that associated with 300 amps, not the 200 amps the panel was designed and listed for. Panel manufacturers have stated that these panels cannot pass UL listing tests with those excessive thermal loads. On 2014/3/27, 14:34, Troy Harvey wrote: I am wondering about the busbar 120% rule, and if there is any wiggle room in the 2014 NEC. Fundamentally I don't understand the 120% rule. If my solar breaker is installed properly at the bottom of the busbar, and the grid-tie breaker is installed at the top, and the busbar itself is rated for 120% of the panel rating, I don't see any means by which a solar breaker of a size substantially larger than 120% could cause a problem. There can be no place on the busbar under any situation (that I can think of) that would exceed 120% because the supply current is coming from opposite ends of the bus bar - even in the worst case load situation. So even if I had a huge PV system (100A), backfeeding the bottom of a 200A panel, I don't see a situation where there is more than 200A over any one section of busbar. Am I wrong, or is the NEC just too prescriptive for its own good? Also would you say that the 120% is based on the inverter max output or backfeed breaker size? thanks, Troy Harvey - Principal Engineer Heliocentric 801-453-9434 tahar...@heliocentric.org
