Re: [RE-wrenches] Nabcep Stamp
The difference is that comparing the PE exam to the NABCEP exam is like comparing brain surgeon board certification for a doctor to a first aid course exam. PE is not only a professional exam, it also holds legal status in all 50 states, whereas the NABCEP exam does not. From: Greg Egan Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2011 9:36 AM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Nabcep Stamp Bill Peter, Okay, if I have a PE Stamp that means I went to school and worked under a mentor for an amount of time to qualify for the PE exam. Passed the exam and I got my stamp. If I have NABCEP certification that means I worked installing solar electric systems (in my case) for an amount of time and /or went to school to qualify for the NABCEP exam and passed the test. I'm having a hard time seeing the difference here. If NABCEP provided a stamp to it's members that they could use to stamp drawings all it would show is that someone who passed the NABCEP exam reviewed the design and hung his or her name on the job. I don't see where NABCEP would be responsible for the design anymore than the PE board or whoever is in charge of giving out PE stamps would be culpable in a case of a bad design by a PE. I think NABCEP should provide a stamp with the certificated member's # on it. All it would do is identify them as a NABCEP member. My understanding is that NABCEP was formed to help the general public distinguish between fly by nights and real RE professionals. A stamp would help do that. If the city of xyz decides that they've seen a lot of good work from NABCEP members and that NABCEP certification is good enough for them, what's wrong with that? Greg Egan Remote Power Inc. NABCEP PV Installer ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity from the sun since 1979 Online Solar Store Free Solar Discussion Forum ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Sanyo HIT and ARRA buy american
Those buy America clauses that congress always seems to put in to cover their butts and wave the flag often don't have any real teeth. Don't know about that particular one, but most are subject also to various international trade free trade treaties and agreements, which in many cases nullifies the America part. Just for grins, one notable example is lighting, because apparently there are NO light bulbs made in America :D -Original Message- From: Kirk Herander, VSE Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 3:24 PM To: k...@vtsolar.com ; 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sanyo HIT and ARRA buy american PS - There is a Sanyo pdf out of a slideshow floating around stating they are eligible for buy American (for Gov't agencies, I suppose) - this is not the case for ARRA-funded systems. Different rules apply. Kirk Herander Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 NABCEP(tm) Certified Solar Installer NYSERDA-eligible Installer VT Solar Incentive Program Partner -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kirk Herander, VSE Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 4:56 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sanyo HIT and ARRA buy american Importance: High The Sanyo literature states that sanyo wafers are made in the US. However, DOE exemption states that the module's cells have to be produced in the US (ie. the actual semiconductor). This would exclude Sanyo's, I presume, under the strict interpretation as to what a wafer vs. a cell is. The cells are fabricated from US-made wafers in Japan, correct? You can't have the cell without the wafer. The VT state program is balking at accepting Sanyos for ARRA incentives because of cell vs. wafer definition. I need to know if any of you have installed ARRA-funded system using Sanyo's and if this sticking point has caused problems. Any documentation you have received from Sanyo which clarifies this issue, arguing for ARRA approval would be most helpful. Again, this is only for ARRA-funded projects, not other gov't stuff like DOD, etc. Thanks. Read this article for reference: http://solar-energy-news-and-views.blogspot.com/2011/02/how-american-are-you r-solar-panels.html Kirk Herander Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 NABCEP(tm) Certified Solar Installer NYSERDA-eligible Installer VT Solar Incentive Program Partner ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity from the sun since 1979 Online Solar Store Free Solar Discussion Forum ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Sanyo HIT and ARRA buy american
This is but one of many exceptions noted in the act “Recovery Act designated country” means a World Trade Organization Government Procurement Agreement country, a Free Trade Agreement country, or a least developed country. https://www.acquisition.gov/far/html/Subpart%2025_6.html -Original Message- From: Kirk Herander, VSE Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 2:56 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sanyo HIT and ARRA buy american The Sanyo literature states that sanyo wafers are made in the US. However, DOE exemption states that the module's cells have to be produced in the US (ie. the actual semiconductor). This would exclude Sanyo's, I presume, under the strict interpretation as to what a wafer vs. a cell is. The cells are fabricated from US-made wafers in Japan, correct? You can't have the cell without the wafer. The VT state program is balking at accepting Sanyos for ARRA incentives because of cell vs. wafer definition. I need to know if any of you have installed ARRA-funded system using Sanyo's and if this sticking point has caused problems. Any documentation you have received from Sanyo which clarifies this issue, arguing for ARRA approval would be most helpful. Again, this is only for ARRA-funded projects, not other gov't stuff like DOD, etc. Thanks. Read this article for reference: http://solar-energy-news-and-views.blogspot.com/2011/02/how-american-are-you r-solar-panels.html Kirk Herander Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 NABCEP(tm) Certified Solar Installer NYSERDA-eligible Installer VT Solar Incentive Program Partner ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity from the sun since 1979 Online Solar Store Free Solar Discussion Forum ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] PV water pumping
The SQ-Flex can run directly from a high voltage battery/PV system, but with a battery based system at over 60 volts or so, you have a lot of problems finding a good charge controller. So, even with the associated losses you are going to get with an inverter system, that is probably the only good option. But I would also advise that systems such as that, especially those involving a large battery capacity, are very highly subject to failure through mis-operation, poor maintenance, and outright theft in many 3rd world countries, so if you end up designing the system keep that in mind. From: Phil Undercuffler Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2011 6:59 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV water pumping Tom, It can be done, depending upon how deep the static water level is and what additional lift or pressurization needs to be overcome. The SQ-Flex will run at highest capacity off an AC source, so I'd consider using an inverter system and grid power, with additional solar designed to supplement the grid. You can run the SQ-Flex off a 120v source, so a single inverter works fine. I run my Flex off my FX2024 along with all my regular household loads, no problems. Size the array to cover the load through the longest expected grid outage (minimum) or you can size the solar to provide the majority of the power, and use the grid as bonus energy or to cover up for sizing shortages or the inevitable load creep. Phil Undercuffler imagine if... On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 5:29 AM, Tom DeBates habite...@yahoo.com wrote: hello Wrenches, I have an organization in Haiti that I have assisted with PV projects in the past. They drill public wells and have a well (4 casing) that they would like to pump with PV. Problem (one) is that well will draw at ~ 20 gpm and they want ~ 25,000 gpd from the well. I have tried to look at every option I can and it looks like a battery bank will be necessary and an inverter ( 48 volt battery bank) to pump at the rate required. OOPPs, forgot they want to use a Grundfos SQ Flex pump, 16-SQF-10. The gird is present.very erratic and stressed, of course. They really would not like to stress gird further and do not want to add a generator. Yep, they made this easy. There are more details, but has anyone designed a PV water pumping system under these constraints and, if so, what have been your results? thanks, tom Tom DeBates Habi-Tek 524 Summit St. Geneva,IL. 60134 630-262-8193 fax 630-262-1343 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity from the sun since 1979 Online Solar Store Free Solar Discussion Forum ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP +
Way back in my more Liberal days, I was a union member and supporter. But over the past 20-25 years I have done a 180, and one of the main reasons was the giant unions attempts at taking over the solar installation business. Somehow NABCEP got itself associated with the IBEW, at least in perception. And perception is what matters to the less informed (which is 99.9% of everyone). NABCEP might want to make it more clear that it is not IBEW/big union associated - ie, non partisan. Overall, I think that some sort of nationwide certification is the future, and right now NABCEP looks like the best bet for that. -Original Message- From: Conrad Geyser Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2011 4:49 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP + The advantage of having NABCEP is that it at least creates the idea and maybe lays the groundwork for licensing provisions for solar installers. Here in Massachusetts, we still can't pull our own electrical permits. And by the way, that's BECAUSE of the electricians union. The whole thing has actually gone South quite a bit but that's another story. As far as I know, in most other States with significant RE programs, us solar bozo's can at least wire back to the inverter under their PV license. Did it not take an extra year for California to get the million solar roofs initiative passed because the C-10s commandeered the bill? So from my perspective, if it's less hassle we want, we want NABCEP to become stronger. My two cents, Conrad Cotuit Solar -Original Message- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter Parrish Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2011 2:20 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Problem with NABCEP ad As PV becomes more and more mainstream, more and more organizations (including state licensing boards, unions and other certifying bodies) will weigh in on the subject of certifying installers for PV installation. We also have Professional Engineers that can provide expert opinions on the subject of sound engineering design. I think one of the more interesting conflicts (in California at least) is the insistence by some AHJs (and clients) that certain work be performed by a licensed electrical contractor (C-10 in CA) as opposed to a licensed solar contractor (C-46). Gosh, some schools require a C-10 license to teach PV design and installation! It is my understanding (and I am prepared to be corrected) that there is nothing in the C-10 license requirements (experience, skills, examination) that would argue that the holder of a C-10 license has any PV-specific knowledge, such as design of a PV system (orientation, shading, string sizing, proper PV ampacity calculations, maximum and minimum system voltages, proper loading analysis, anchoring and attachment of PV systems on roof tops), commissioning/troubleshooting or calculation of annual energy production, or financial metrics such as payback and IRR. But I digress. As for NABCEP certification, there are of course different levels and different specialties. If we stick to the Entry Level exam for PV installers and the (full-up) Certified Solar PV Installer (of which I have some knowledge) -- I think both have their value. An individual who passes the Entry Level Exam demonstrates that they have a certain level of knowledge about solar resources, PV system design and installation, system performance, troubleshooting, safety practices, and some financial metrics. What it doesn't deal with is experience and practical skills. If I were contemplating hiring for an entry level installer position, I would give considerable weight to some one who passed the Entry Level Exam. I would of course also evaluate the individual's skills and construction trade experience. As for the Certified Solar PV Installer, the requirements to sit for the exam include a significant amount of actual hands-on PV installation experience. There are a number of ways to qualify and I think that NABCEP has recognized a fairly broad number of paths to demonstrating this experience. There is recognition of academic instruction but it must be coupled with hands-on experience. There is also a code of ethics and requirements for continuing education as a requirement for recertification. And then there is the exam. I can vouch for the fact that the exam is thorough and difficult. As an anecdote, when I took the exam not one single person left the exam before the end of the time period. I won't hazard a guess as to the pass rate, perhaps someone else can provide some insight. With all this work that NABCEP has put into standards and certification, I would expect them to promote the value of their standards and certifications. (full disclosure: I haven't seen the ad in Home Power; could someone provide me with issue and page number?). Is insist too strong a word? I don't know. I hear advertising all the time like Insist on genuine
Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP marketing
From what I see, NABCEP is heavily hardware oriented, with only a smidgen of actual problem solving and/or theory. It totally falls apart with battery based systems, generally way undersizing them. The actual electrical knowledge required is minimal except for code and wiring/hardware issues. Being certified will not make you capable of much – if any – real troubleshooting. From: Nick Soleil Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 2:16 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP marketing To become NABCEP certified, you only need to have installed 2 PV systems. 1 of those systems can be at a training class, and the other can be on your brothers house. All that NABCEP Certified means is that I studied a list of questions, and then passed the test. It is good to know that a handrailing should be 39-45 tall, and not 36-42. However, that should not come with any title, like 'Certified PV Installer.' The experience requirements should be more stringent. If it required some real experience, it would mean something, but NABCEP wants as many participants as possible, so anyone can sit for it. Nick Soleil Project Manager Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC PO Box 657 Petaluma, CA 94953 Cell: 707-321-2937 Office: 707-789-9537 Fax: 707-769-9037 From: Dave Palumbo d...@independentpowerllc.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Mon, February 7, 2011 11:10:21 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP marketing Larry, It’s easy to become frustrated browsing, or studying, anyone’s marketing these days. It’s OK to squeak once in a while on topics like this (in my opinion). NABCEP has not been discussed too much lately and your comment brought some good discussion to the group. Sounds like you are doing some good things in your business. Many professionals have not passed the test on the first take. David Palumbo Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive Hyde Park, VT 05655 www.independentpowerllc.com NABCEP Certified PV Installer Vermont Solar Partner 23 Years Experience, (802) 888-7194 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of wire...@gmail.com Sent: Monday, February 07, 2011 11:54 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] NABCEP is Union Based? That's news to me! I spent about $1500 for prep course, hotel, etc to pass the entry level exam, so I have that. I spent about $2000 for prep, hotel, plane fare for the certification but I failed the test. I am taking it again in March. I'm studying harder this time. I'm 62 and my memory is not what it used to be and was never good at taking tests. When I design I have everything on my desk to refer to so I don't have to rely on my memory. And I just love installing, I've been doing it on boats for 30 years. I'm sorry if you think I'm whining, maybe I'll just stop. I'm just a competitive person and the ad ticked me off. Larry Liesner Wirewiz Westport, CT Phone: 203-644-2404 Fax: 203-557-0556 wire...@gmail.com www.wire-wiz.com On Feb 7, 2011, at 11:16 AM, Bill Hoffer wrote: Larry My PE is not required for the majority of work I do either, but I get a considerable edge over my competition because I have invested the time energy and went through the stress of taking the exam. It is the same way with NABCEP, I have shown that I am willing to take the time, energy and stress to get the qualification. I also appreciate the NABCEP taking the time and effort to promote ME in their ads. After going through the time and effort, it is good to get some tangible payback, and you want to take that away from me, because you do not have the time to take the exam...give me a break! You have the right to run your business and promote it as you see fit and so do I! Does any qualification mean that you know everything, of course not. If any one of us think that, then we should get out of the business. Cause guess what, we are in a rapidly changing landscape where we all are continually learning more and growing as an industry. Otherwise there would not be much use in this blog at all. All an exam really means is that you took the time, energy and stress to prepare for and take the exam, which to me is a sign of professionalism. It is about time our industry grows up! Is NABCEP perfect, of course not, but we all have the opportunity to help to make this organization the best that it can be. I applaud the pioneers who had the vision and that were willing to invest the considerable amount of time, energy and stress to pull it off. If you can do without it , more power to you, but don't whine to me about it being unfair that we want to toot our horn about what we are trying to do for this industry! Bill -- Bill Hoffer PE NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™ Sunergy Engineering
Re: [RE-wrenches] Odd Inverter Behavior
That 284 volt number is if the panel is at 25 degrees C. If the panels are in full sun and with little wind, they can be higher temperature than that even in cold weather. An easy way to get a rough check on that is to disconnect the panels and temporarily haywire an extra panel in series from another string. I suspect the array might have to be rewired for 2 x 12. From: August Goers Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 5:01 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Odd Inverter Behavior Hi Wrenches - We were called out today to check out an under performing system installed by another contractor. This is an odd case. The system has 24 Suntech 180s in three strings of 8 and a SMA Sunnyboy 4000us. Open circuit voltage for each string was about 330 Volts and we verified that everything appeared to be wired in correctly. There is no DC side grounding at all. Just a positive and negative coming down off the roof for each string. With all modules in direct light the inverter is only pumping out about 250 Watts steady state. We noticed that when we turn it off and on again that the power went up to about 1500 Watts as it started tracking the max power point. Then it slowly veers off course and settles out at about 250 Watts and is running very close to the open circuit voltage of about 330 volts. I would expect the MPP voltage to be closer to ~280 Volts. The inverter MPP tracking range goes down to 250 Volts so I don't think that's the problem. Anyone ever seen anything like this before? What might be causing the inverter to get confused? The only thing I can think of is that something fishy is going on with the lack of a DC side ground and that certainly needs to be fixed anyway. All thoughts welcome. Best, August ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity from the sun since 1979 Online Solar Store Free Solar Discussion Forum ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Low light panel
Physically impossible unless you have about an acre for panels. -Original Message- From: Carl Adams Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 2:18 PM To: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low light panel Hello Wrenches, I'm looking for a panel which will provide 0.7A at 12-20V with only a 60 lumen light source for the irradiance source With REgards Carl Adams SunRock Solar LLC ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity from the sun since 1979 Online Solar Store Free Solar Discussion Forum ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Low light panel
If the source is a light bulb or similar, no it cannot be done at all. If the source was something like a very heavily clouded sky, or twilight in the Arctic, it could be. A 23 watt CFL puts out around 1200 to 1600 Lumens. So to get the wattage needed (.7 amps @ 15 volts), you would need a panel that is about 2000% efficient. -Original Message- From: Nathan Jones Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 4:02 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Low light panel We built a display for a Science Center shining a 350 watt halogen bulb onto a 20 watt module. We could get .4 amps out of the 12 volt panel. No matter how large the array it can't be done with 60 lumens because the light disperses at the same rate that the array surface area increases. Nathan Jones Power Source Solar 417-827-0738 On Thu Feb 3rd, 2011 4:27 PM CST Warren Lauzon wrote: Physically impossible unless you have about an acre for panels. -Original Message- From: Carl Adams Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 2:18 PM To: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Low light panel Hello Wrenches, I'm looking for a panel which will provide 0.7A at 12-20V with only a 60 lumen light source for the irradiance source With REgards Carl Adams SunRock Solar LLC ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity from the sun since 1979 Online Solar Store Free Solar Discussion Forum ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity from the sun since 1979 Online Solar Store Free Solar Discussion Forum ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Data System Puzzle
Do you have any wiring close to the actual sensors or circuit board that might be interfering with them? -Original Message- From: vi...@solarenergydesign.com Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 11:46 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Data System Puzzle Sorry for the long post. I don't know how else to communicate this issue. We installed an Energy Recommerce data system on a project last year that we have not been able get working properly. Everything works except the monitoring of the series string amperage outputs from the solar array. There are 3 pv source circuit combiner boxes with 11 series strings of 14 modules and 1 with 10 series strings of 14. Each combiner box feeds one inverter with its own conduit run. The data system shows amperage from each circuit consistent within each combiner box, typically with a range of variance of about 1.5 amps DC between series strings. Each combiner box will show totally divergent amperages. For example, combiner box 1 might read 2 amps, combiner box 3 reads 10 amps, and at the same time our clamp meters are reading the actual amperage at around 5 amps consistently between every box for every circuit. The same combiner boxes will consistently read either too low or too high. The problem may be in the interface between the Hall Effect sensors that the circuit board in the combiner box uses to measure the DC current. The Hall Effect sensors deliver a calibrated voltage based on the strength of the magnetic field around the series string circuit as it goes through the box. The combiner box then calculates the amperage based on the millivolts that the Hall Effect sensor produces. For example 500 millivolts equals 5 amps. The DC output voltage of the Hall Effect sensor varies by about 50 millivolts or more, so rapidly that it’s hard for our meters to follow it. We have spent countless hours on the phone with Energy Recommerce technicians trying everything that anyone could think of to trouble shoot the problem. Their system uses a MODBUS protocol for transferring the data and there seems to be no problem with the data transmission or connectivity. I would love to hear from anyone that sees a pattern to this problem that might help us find a solution. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity from the sun since 1979 Online Solar Store Free Solar Discussion Forum ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods
I just got a similar call last Friday, from someone who had bought their “complete offgrid system” from that same “cheapestsolar” outfit Somehow they managed to sell them a 6000 watt panel system for off grid along with enough battery to last them about 3 hours. Along with the 24 225 watt panels, they had also purchased a complete dual Outback VFX 48 volt 6000 watt+ inverter setup. And 400 amp-hours of golf car batteries... It is déjà vu all over again. It has gotten so bad in the past couple of years that we stopped publishing our 800 tech support number. At least when they call us for help with what they bought from a competitor they have to pay for the phone call. From: toddc...@finestplanet.com Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 6:09 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods I had a potential customer call me last week saying he had just bought a bunch of panels and those micro chip things (enphase inverters) so he could get a end of the year tax break. He wanted me to come and install it for him. I told him my work includes a comprehensive energy audit to gather the low hanging fruit first. I also said I do not touch equipment I do not sell or install systems I do not design and that I was sorry but I could not help him. I wished him good luck in getting someone to touch that gear. Too bad the cheapestsolar.com folks don't warn their customers about these kinds of situations. Just like the Carter gold rush days is correct. Todd On Friday, January 28, 2011 2:52pm, Darryl Thayer daryl_so...@yahoo.com said: I installed a system provides by another, it failed, because of defective equipment, I am being sued to replace the defective equipment DT From: boB Gudgel b...@midnitesolar.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Fri, January 28, 2011 11:25:34 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods On 1/28/2011 8:41 AM, Solar Energy Solutions wrote: Joel, Our company cannot survive without selling an entire system. When we help the unqualified and untrained we legitimize unsubstantiated pv businesses. We get a dozen phone calls a month from folks wanting us to install their systems. It is a rat hole and we have learned that not only are such ventures unprofitable, they are fraught with poor designs and a plethora of other hassles. This whole thing reminds me of the Carter solar Gold Rush where, sure, a bunch of systems were installed, but look at the damage it did to the industry. Respectfully, I just hope that the solar installers' industry doesn't have to start installing roofs, too !! boB Andrew Koyaanisqatsi President Solar Energy Solutions, Inc. Since 1987, Moving Portland and Beyond to an Environmentally Sustainable Future. 503-238-4502 www.solarenergyoregon.com Better one's House too little one day than too big all the Year after. --- On Fri, 1/28/11, Joel Davidson mailto:joel.david...@sbcglobal.net wrote: From: Joel Davidson mailto:joel.david...@sbcglobal.net Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods To: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Friday, January 28, 2011, 7:06 AM Guys, You're missing a business opportunity. Instead of complaining about roofers' bad work and competition, show the company owners photos of their screw-ups and your quality work. Tell him that he is a risk. Then offer to do their design and electrical installation (let them do the sales, roofing, and grunt work). Joel Davidson - Original Message - From: Warren Lauzon To: RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 3:35 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation methods We have seen a lot of the roofing companies nibbling around the edges of solar installs lately. I have only seen a couple of installs personally, and they were far from what I would call professional or reliable. Not quite as bad as your example, but in one case they had used Romex to run the wiring down to the inverter, and not in conduit. From: Nick Soleil Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:11 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation methods Hi wrenches: Have you noticed that roofing companies have recently been trying to sell solar? One company thought of something that I had never considered. Listen to this neat story. I
Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods
I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head there with that list - been there, done that - especially #9. Every time I get one of those calls I have to have them read off the entire list. 90% of the time I see weird things, and know immediately they did not buy it from us. So then my next question to them is did you buy this from us - followed by a long moment of silence before they admit that the company they bought it from is clueless. I think one of the best calls I got recently was someone wondering if the wires getting hot was a problem. I am retiring this year, been in this almost 30 years now, and seeing the same thing come around yet again is getting old. -Original Message- From: Peter Parrish Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 11:33 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation methods Well, I thought we were talking about getting into bed with roofers. If we are talking about DIYers, here is my two cents worth. Just so boB and Warren don’t appear to be a couple of voices in the wild(erness). I personally do not know of a single PV integrator who would work with a DIYer. The reasons for walking away from this kind of business are so numerous, I will list only the first fourteen: (1) A DIYer looking for some help in installing a PV system, might be looking to avoid pulling a permit, or (2) Expects to pull a permit as an owner-builder, or (3) Wants you to pull the permit (4) Doesn’t think we need to perform a site survey, because he got on the roof a couple of weeks ago and everything will fit and there was no shading. (5) Wants you to fill out the rebate paperwork (and not pay for the effort) (6) Doesn’t want to pay for engineering either (what do you mean we can’t use the 500 ft of #14 THHN wire I bought?) (7) Or for that matter permit documentation (you want $250 to draw up a permit package! That’s outrageous!) (8) Wants the installer to carry the warranty for the stuff his brother bought on the internet from PVPartsForSale (9) Isn’t 100% sure exactly what came in the “kit” (10) Wants the installer to bid on the project based on a PowerPoint layout he did for the modules (What do you mean I have to know the rafter spacing and orientation? I assumed you would cut those black plastic pipes vents flush with the roof. Don’t worry I’ll move the satellite dish!) (11) Wants to do “a little of the work himself on the weekends” (Like running some conduit through the attic). (12) Wants the installer to vouch for the fact that the PV modules were purchased “new” even though there is a fine layer of dirt everywhere on the panels even in the rain channels, and some of the panels have wire clips installed on the backside. (13) Doesn’t know anything about his service panel, or whether or not he had a code compliant grounding system, and is not sure what kind of roof he has (I think it’s “tile”) or what condition it’s in (14) And he has done a little unpermitted electrical work in the past, but that shouldn’t be a problem should it? - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President California Solar Engineering, Inc. 820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065 CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26 peter.parr...@calsolareng.com Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Warren Lauzon Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 10:19 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation methods I just got a similar call last Friday, from someone who had bought their “complete offgrid system” from that same “cheapestsolar” outfit Somehow they managed to sell them a 6000 watt panel system for off grid along with enough battery to last them about 3 hours. Along with the 24 225 watt panels, they had also purchased a complete dual Outback VFX 48 volt 6000 watt+ inverter setup. And 400 amp-hours of golf car batteries... It is déjà vu all over again. It has gotten so bad in the past couple of years that we stopped publishing our 800 tech support number. At least when they call us for help with what they bought from a competitor they have to pay for the phone call. From: toddc...@finestplanet.com Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 6:09 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods I had a potential customer call me last week saying he had just bought a bunch of panels and those micro chip things (enphase inverters) so he could get a end of the year tax break. He wanted me to come and install it for him. I told him my work includes a comprehensive energy audit to gather the low hanging fruit first. I also said I do not touch equipment I do not sell or install systems I do not design and that I was sorry but I could not help him. I wished him good luck in getting someone to touch
Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods
We have seen a lot of the roofing companies nibbling around the edges of solar installs lately. I have only seen a couple of installs personally, and they were far from what I would call professional or reliable. Not quite as bad as your example, but in one case they had used Romex to run the wiring down to the inverter, and not in conduit. From: Nick Soleil Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:11 PM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation methods Hi wrenches: Have you noticed that roofing companies have recently been trying to sell solar? One company thought of something that I had never considered. Listen to this neat story. I was servicing a job today, where a roofing company recently removed and re-installed a PV array on a 12 degree sloped roof. The funny thing is that the roofer didn't want to penetrate his new roof, so he and the customer decided to leave the panels sitting on the composition roof without any attachments to the structure. They didn't think it was necessary! Shortly afterward, the array slid down the roof, and a MultiContact connector came unplugged. The customer noticed that his system was not operating, and called us to the site. Nick Soleil Project Manager Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC PO Box 657 Petaluma, CA 94953 Cell: 707-321-2937 Office: 707-789-9537 Fax: 707-769-9037 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity from the sun since 1979 Online Solar Store Free Solar Discussion Forum ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] 10A Charge / load controller; Morningstar MPPT controller
We only have non-archived computerized records going back 1 year, but it looks like 95% of the Morningstar MPPT-15 controllers we sold were for 21 to 44 Voc panels. I only see a very few higher voltage panels. Our main line of the 200 watt’ish range is Kyocera, SolarWorld, and Sharp. Just judging from comments by all the posters in this group, there seems to be a rather high failure rate among smaller controllers. I wonder how many of those failures were due to user/install errors or outside factor like lightning as compared to actual bad controllers. Of all controllers that we have ever sold in the past 5 years or so, BZ had the highest failure rate (we stopped selling them about 2 years ago). Blue Sky also has a very low fail rate, but they are much less versatile than the Morningstar, Outback, and Xantrex MPPT controllers when it comes to matching larger panels, and the MPPT tracking does not seem to work as efficiently. From: Starlight Solar, Larry Crutcher Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 8:12 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 10A Charge / load controller;Morningstar MPPT controller I believe the issue we had has to do with using the Sanyo high voltage PV module. As Kent points out, we were operating the controller at the design limit. I don't believe it is suited to do that as we have other Morningstar MPPT controllers working fine for several years now with lower voltage PV modules. BTW, the MPPT failures were in systems that we designed and installed using the Sanyo's. The main reason we started using this controller is for 12 volt systems with a single high voltage module. We use other controllers when the Voc is less than 40 volts. Warren, are any of the 200 units you sold last year used with a 200 watt Sanyo other high voltage PV module(s)? Larry - Original Message - From: Warren Lauzon To: RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 11:05 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 10A Charge / load controller All controllers have failures – most commonly due to user/installer errors. Of all the controllers we sell, Morningstar have been by far the most trouble free and has the best no-hassle warranty. We have probably sold/installed around 100 to 200 of the SS-MPPT-15 controllers over the past year or so, and have seen almost zero problems that were not caused by a bad installation of some sort. Just on a side note, of all the controllers of all brands we have sold over the past decade, probably 3/4 of those returned by end users as “not working” has nothing wrong with them. From: Kent Osterberg Sent: Monday, January 24, 2011 10:39 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 10A Charge / load controller The spec sheet for the SS-MPPT says 75 volts maximum open circuit. Maximum PV power: 200 watts for 12-volt batteries and 400-watts for 24-volt batteries. While it is supposed to be protected from PV overload and PV high voltage, it doesn't seem surprising that failures that have been observed are in systems that are pushing on these limits. Fortunately, Morningstar stands behind their product. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar, Inc. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity from the sun since 1979 Online Solar Store Free Solar Discussion Forum ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Freezing (was Trace...)
Never underestimate how bad an old system can be. In the past we have seen systems – including those done by “solar companies” – where part of the battery bank was not even wired in to the system. From: Kelly Larson Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 12:57 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Freezing (was Trace...) Warning: those old DIY setups quickly become a can of worms, the further you dig into them. Don't assume anything was done right. ...Including checking the polarity of every wire! Who knows what the color meant to the last guy. And don't just mess with a few things and leave it. That customer is sure to have more problems and you were the last to touch it. (God forbid if they have an electrical fire.) Tell them it will take time to fix the mess. Make yourself a wiring diagram following every wire. This will take some customer investment, but result in a working system and happy customer. Blessings, Kelly Kelly Larson Box 104 Piercy, CA 95587 707-223-3209 Electrical Engineer NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer ISPQ Master Trainer CA C-10 # 868189 solarke...@asis.com I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don't have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that. ~ Thomas Edison On Dec 29, 2010, at 10:59 AM, R Ray Walters wrote: Jay; I've saved a few sets from freezing, different manufacturers' cases are stronger than others. (ie, A Trojan T105 can take more stress than something from Sam's Club.) FIrst I make sure they're less than 5 years old. Then, I warm them backup (portable propane heater, very well vented area, no current flow in or out) 3rd, See if any are leaking 4th, Charge them with the caps off, monitoring voltage, current, temperature, and bubbling action. Jesse; Your eyes and health are not worth risking to save those old things; 12 years is a fairly respectable lifespan in a poorly setup system. I think to continue to work with those batteries is inviting danger (everyone's recent explosion stories?) All those problems were caused by shorting plates, and other malfunctions, usually only seen in old batteries. Batteries only freeze when completely abused. The inverter probably was shutting off all the time from low voltage, and they had DC loads dragging it down even lower. The recent string on battery temperature management should be applied in this case too. I've seen poorly designed venting, freeze batteries right next to it, while the batteries on the inside were warm. I agree with Allan's assessment: this set is toast, and considering this is the worst time of year to not have a good battery set, I'd take care of that lady, and get her into a fresh set, ASAP. This is also a chance to do some needed rewiring of the system. Warning: those old DIY setups quickly become a can of worms, the further you dig into them. Don't assume anything was done right. R. Walters r...@solarray.com Solar Engineer On Dec 29, 2010, at 9:16 AM, jay peltz wrote: I'd like to go back to the freezing battery part as I don't live in real freezing territory. How could they actually freeze and not destroy the housing, internal plate structure and in the end work at all? thanks, jay From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 10:41 AM To: dahlso...@gmail.com; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trace inverters undercharging batteries. Jesse, Don't waste your time on those batteries; they are all toast. Don't replace them with the same; four strings is poor design. Read the article about off-grid batteries in the current Home Power, and then sell the customer a set of 12 (or 24; either one string or two is OK) 2V industrial cells, such as HUPs from Northwest Energy Storage or K-series Surrettes. Size unknown. The existing full bank was 1400 A/hr if the cell cases had black covers, 1600 A/hr if the tops are blue, to give you an idea. BP modules from 1998 would have most likely been 12V 75W or 85W, meaning 900-1000 watts; too small an array for that size battery bank if the home is used full-time; OK for a seasonal or weekend cabin. Only with new batteries can you even tell what the inverters are doing. My hunch is that the inverters aren't at fault. However, given the poor quality of the original installation, they likely are set to default setpoints, which can charge at a very high rate (about 220A at 28.8V for two if the gennie is big enough) but won't get batteries full (and can't equalize them), as the default setpoints are too low. And I'll bet dollars to doughnuts the default setpoints are in place, as the inverters have been shut down sometime in the last 12 years, losing any original programming settings.
Re: [RE-wrenches] Trace inverters undercharging batteries.
To be honest, I cannot think of any reason ever to replace the electrolyte in a battery except to replace spillage. If the batteries got to the slush or freezing point at less than –10F or so, they probably already had problems with charging. From: jay peltz Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 1:24 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trace inverters undercharging batteries. Hi Jamie, Would slushy electrolyte be an problem for a battery? Would this call for replacing the electrolyte? thanks, jay peltz power On Dec 29, 2010, at 8:28 AM, James Surrette wrote: Hi Jay, If the froze and it was slushy will not cause internal damage. To your point, if they freeze solid - this will generally break the grid and cause internal shorts. I assumed, since the batteries were operational, there is no shorts. Per freezing, here is the chart on freezing points and SG levels; 1.280 -92° F (-69° C) 1.265 -72.3° F (-57° C) 1.250 -62° F (-52° C) 1.200 -16° F (-27° C) 1.150 +5° F (-15° C) 1.100 +19° F (-7.2° C) Regards, Jamie jay peltz j...@asis.com 12/29/2010 12:16 PM I'd like to go back to the freezing battery part as I don't live in real freezing territory. How could they actually freeze and not destroy the housing, internal plate structure and in the end work at all? thanks, jay From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Allan Sindelar Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 10:41 AM To: dahlso...@gmail.com; RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Trace inverters undercharging batteries. Jesse, Don't waste your time on those batteries; they are all toast. Don't replace them with the same; four strings is poor design. Read the article about off-grid batteries in the current Home Power, and then sell the customer a set of 12 (or 24; either one string or two is OK) 2V industrial cells, such as HUPs from Northwest Energy Storage or K-series Surrettes. Size unknown. The existing full bank was 1400 A/hr if the cell cases had black covers, 1600 A/hr if the tops are blue, to give you an idea. BP modules from 1998 would have most likely been 12V 75W or 85W, meaning 900-1000 watts; too small an array for that size battery bank if the home is used full-time; OK for a seasonal or weekend cabin. Only with new batteries can you even tell what the inverters are doing. My hunch is that the inverters aren't at fault. However, given the poor quality of the original installation, they likely are set to default setpoints, which can charge at a very high rate (about 220A at 28.8V for two if the gennie is big enough) but won't get batteries full (and can't equalize them), as the default setpoints are too low. And I'll bet dollars to doughnuts the default setpoints are in place, as the inverters have been shut down sometime in the last 12 years, losing any original programming settings. You might see about getting an experienced off-gridder in your frozen region to work with you. Maybe Darryl could consult now, then make one trip out to set up the system once the new batteries are in. This was the classic late-90s system with a later charge controller upgrade, but if you have never worked with this equipment, you're likely to set it up for a repeat failure years down the road. Just read Jamie's post - while his advice is spot on, of course, you need to decide if it's worth your while. I'd be more inclined to try his approach if the battery bank was three years old, not 12. That's a huge amount of time spent, working with acid and an unknown set of hazards, with at best the possibility of a few years' use. I'd suggest that unless it's your father-in-law's cabin, and you value the chance to hang out there for a week, it's not worth your time or the customer's, especially given that you acknowledge having little off-grid experience. Allan Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer EE98J Journeyman Electrician Positive Energy, Inc. 3201 Calle Marie Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.positiveenergysolar.com This email and its attachments have been scanned by iConnection E-Mail Firewall for viruses, spam, and malicious content. The information transmitted in this email is intended only for the entity or person to which it is addressed and may contain confidential/privileged material. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer. Any review, retransmission, dissemination, or other use of this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is strictly prohibited. %^^% ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings:
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery based hydrogen incidents
In the 30+ years that we have been in the solar business, we have never seen or even heard of a single one. From: Dana Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 9:10 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery based hydrogen incidents Ken – To meet the flow have run 2 and 3 fans to meet the flow. 2” output from the fan into a 4” header with a matching 2.5” inlet as far away on the lowest portion of the battery box. In 22+ years in off grid installations I have yet to see or even hear of one hydrogen explosion. I get repeatedly asked why we have to go to the efforts we go to for box and venting. I am not able to provide even one incident that I have heard rumor of. Q - How many battery based hydrogen incidents have happened in our collective experience? Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc E - d...@solarwork.com V - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 C - 970.209.4076 web - www.solarwork.com Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988 Do not ever belive anything, but seriously trust through action. From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kent Osterberg Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 12:07 PM To: Wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Venting Fellow Wrenches, The discussion about battery venting reminds me of a useful and inexpensive program, BattMV, for determining ventilation requirements per EN-50272. EN-50272 is a European standard used to determine how much air flow is needed for a room, I don't know of a equivalent standard used in the U.S. It takes a surprising amount of ventilation. For a 400-AH 48-volt L16 bank charged at 57.6 volts and 24 amps, it's about 7 CFM just to keep the %H2 down to 4%. A 12-volt Zephyr vent is good for about 5 CFM! If you think you are venting enough, take some time and study this issue. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity from the sun since 1979 Online Solar Store Free Solar Discussion Forum ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery based hydrogen incidents
We have seen a few instances of the batteries themselves blowing, but not from hydrogen that we could tell. In one case a guy decided to fast charge his battery bank with a DC welding generator... From: Allan Sindelar Sent: Wednesday, December 15, 2010 11:10 AM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery based hydrogen incidents Knowledge of two incidents - sort of. About ten years ago a Hydrocap on an L16 blew apart. Not our installation; I suspect that it became plugged up or overheated, as the array had been recently enlarged. Explosion was contained within the battery enclosure; just made a mess. About four years ago a small 12V automotive battery used only to start a 6.5 Onan generator blew up, causing modest permanent hearing damage to the homeowner. I wasn't there, and heard about it from her. This wasn't a venting issue, as the battery was on the floor in a ventilated room, but rather apparently a plugged cap in the battery itself. Otherwise, nothing. Allan Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer EE98J Journeyman Electrician Positive Energy, Inc. 3201 Calle Marie Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.positiveenergysolar.com On 12/15/2010 10:56 AM, Exeltech wrote: 38+ years in RE. Knowledge of one incident (an off-grid friend). Very sunny day. Very windy. My friend had both PV and a wind generator (still does). He had just stepped out of the room where the batteries were located when (as he described it) he heard something like a loud gunshot. He went back inside to find one of the L16s exploded, top completely blown off, and case broken much of the way down one side. Had the incident occurred only minutes earlier, injuries could have resulted. He has since relocated his batteries to a dedicated (and vented) battery space. Dan --- On Wed, 12/15/10, Kent Osterberg mailto:k...@coveoregon.com wrote: From: Kent Osterberg mailto:k...@coveoregon.com Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery based hydrogen incidents To: RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Date: Wednesday, December 15, 2010, 11:21 AM Sounds like, in general, that the off-grid industry has been fortunate to not have hydrogen explosions. That's good. No explosions here either. But one shouldn't take that as evidence that it couldn't happen. I don't believe this is a circumstance where it is better to be lucky than good. That's why I recommend doing the calculations. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar Dana wrote: Ken – To meet the flow have run 2 and 3 fans to meet the flow. 2” output from the fan into a 4” header with a matching 2.5” inlet as far away on the lowest portion of the battery box. In 22+ years in off grid installations I have yet to see or even hear of one hydrogen explosion. I get repeatedly asked why we have to go to the efforts we go to for box and venting. I am not able to provide even one incident that I have heard rumor of. Q - How many battery based hydrogen incidents have happened in our collective experience? Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc E - wlmailhtml:/mc/compose?to=d...@solarwork.com V - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 C - 970.209.4076 web - www.solarwork.com Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988 Do not ever belive anything, but seriously trust through action. From: wlmailhtml:/mc/compose?to=re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [wlmailhtml:/mc/compose?to=re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kent Osterberg Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2010 12:07 PM To: Wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Venting Fellow Wrenches, The discussion about battery venting reminds me of a useful and inexpensive program, BattMV, for determining ventilation requirements per EN-50272. EN-50272 is a European standard used to determine how much air flow is needed for a room, I don't know of a equivalent standard used in the U.S. It takes a surprising amount of ventilation. For a 400-AH 48-volt L16 bank charged at 57.6 volts and 24 amps, it's about 7 CFM just to keep the %H2 down to 4%. A 12-volt Zephyr vent is good for about 5 CFM! If you think you are venting enough, take some time and study this issue. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings:
Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Mate Controller Issues
Have not seen that in Outback systems before, but have seen it in similar setups. Never conclusively figured out what caused it, but as the 3-4 instances all occurred in winter when humidity was very low and static discharge was common, that could have caused the memory in the internal circuits to lose or scramble data. Kind of like a mini-EMP blast. But that is just a theory, not a proven cause. From: Kirpal Khalsa Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 9:30 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Mate Controller Issues Good Morning All..we have recently had 2 off grid outback systems go haywire.both have been running perfectly for more than 2 years.then all of a sudden the mate stops allowing AC inputs.a variety of troubleshooting indicated all components were fine.Outback support took care to help with the confirmation that all the components were fine..finally with us being stumped, tech support asked us to unplug the mate from the hub and replug it back in.Voila! everything started working properly again..only setting that seemed to be changed and needed to be reset was that the chargers on the inverters were turned off and a few button pushes later and this was also restored.. Anyone else having any similar experiences? This is puzzling as we haven't ever had this kind of problem and for some coincidental reason we had two systems both with long term smooth operating histories have the same issue..we appreciated the quick, accessible, competent support from Outback tech support but remain puzzled as to what may have triggered these odd events..feedback appreciated! -- Sunny Regards, Kirpal Khalsa NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer Renewable Energy Systems www.oregonsolarworks.com 541-218-0201 m 541-592-3958 o ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity from the sun since 1979 Online Solar Store Free Solar Discussion Forum ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] To insulate a battery bank
Insulation has one major positive effect, it stabilized the temperature of the battery bank. With enough insulation battery temperature will vary very little even with big swings in ambient. The one major downside is that in hot weather or a warm room, they cannot get rid of heat. It is semi-common to bury batteries in very cold climates and in very hot climates – but the same warning applies if a lot of internal heat is generated. In our experience a fan won’t do much to cool hot batteries. From: Dana Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 9:32 AM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] To insulate a battery bank For many years I have had these questions asked of me – Should you or should you not insulate a battery bank in an Un heated building? If the battery bank is giving off enough heat to retain is the system being operated correctly to produce that much heat? If it is giving of that much heat the vent fan will be on therefore cooling the battery bank. If the battery is cold and the building [say in spring] warms up the insulation will prevent the bank from warming with the ambient temperature. Should it be a little insulation say 1” or 2-4” of insulation? I have leaned toward an insulated building with a vented battery box as required by NEC and Colorado electrical inspectors. I have worked on battery banks installed by others that are super insulated with convection venting and found them to be very cold. Colder than ambient temps. Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc E - d...@solarwork.com V - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 C - 970.209.4076 web - www.solarwork.com Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988 Do not ever belive anything, but seriously trust through action. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity from the sun since 1979 Online Solar Store Free Solar Discussion Forum ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Mystery shutdowns
For outdoor installations, that could also be temperature related, But one of the instances I saw was also a pump controller. From: Dana Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 12:52 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: [RE-wrenches] Mystery shutdowns Interesting point on the potential of static interference. I have a Lorentz PS600 pump controller that goes wacky and shuts down for no apparent reason around this time of year but works fine the rest of the year. Has anyone else had this issue and did you reach a resolution? Dana Orzel Great Solar Works, Inc E - d...@solarwork.com V - 970.626.5253 F - 970.626.4140 C - 970.209.4076 web - www.solarwork.com Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988 Do not ever belive anything, but seriously trust through action. From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Warren Lauzon Sent: Thursday, December 09, 2010 11:28 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Mate Controller Issues Have not seen that in Outback systems before, but have seen it in similar setups. Never conclusively figured out what caused it, but as the 3-4 instances all occurred in winter when humidity was very low and static discharge was common, that could have caused the memory in the internal circuits to lose or scramble data. Kind of like a mini-EMP blast. But that is just a theory, not a proven cause. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity from the sun since 1979 Online Solar Store Free Solar Discussion Forum ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Cable REvistied
We use the “inner melt” type of heat shrink and have had few problems with it compared to the standard heat shrink. As far as Lead plated lugs, I am not sure I see much advantage to them. Also as far as coatings go, most Vaseline and other standard grease type are way too temperature sensitive, and in hot weather they just melt away – and they are also great dust/bug/dirt gatherers. 3M and others make a spray on coating that hardens somewhat that we have found to be much better. From the 3M website “Scotch® Insulating Sprays 1601 and 1602 are electrical-grade, fast-drying enamel sealers and insulators in pressurized cans. Full Description » These sealers protect surfaces against weather, moisture, corrosion, oil, alkalies and acids. The sprays can afford easy access to hard-to-reach spots. Use Insulating Spray sealers to spray over insulation on wire and cable splices, as a general-purpose sealer, or for touch-up insulation on motor windings and frames. Sprays are available in clear, red or black.” The local Home Depot carries it here, also some electrical distributors. From: R Ray Walters Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 9:26 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Cable REvistied HI Mark; Where do you get the lead plated lugs? We used to special order tin plated lugs from Del City, but they quit carrying them. I found that the grease or vaseline coating was the most important issue, though. Tin plated lugs would corrode just like the unplated ones, except they first would lose their plating. Lead plated lugs might just be the ticket, except you would still have to keep the corrosion from creeping up under the heat shrink to the copper cable. I've had cables with corrosion going up the cable strands for over 6 past the lug. And yes we use heat shrink with the sealing adhesive inside; the corrosion just travels right under it along the surface of the metal. I actually found electrical tape seals better, it just doesn't look near as good, so we still use heat shrink, and coat over the heat shrink with the vaseline (or grease). R. Walters r...@solarray.com Solar Engineer On Nov 30, 2010, at 9:09 AM, Mark Frye wrote: I recently worked with a telecom specification that required lead plated copper lugs on the battery side and I have been using the same on my own systems for some time now. How important is it to use lead plated lugs on the battery side? Is tin plated copper just as good so long as you coat well with grease etc.? Mark Frye Berkeley Solar Electric Systems 303 Redbud Way Nevada City, CA 95959 (530) 401-8024 www.berkeleysolar.com -- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 6:03 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Cable REvistied Hi Ray, I have for my last 2 battery jobs used the Cobra X-Flex in 2/0 size with MTW rating. At the battery end I have found the Thomas Betts 54163-TB lugs, available at my local Grainger store to be a good match both mechanically and specification wise (also the correct hole size for M8 terminals in my Concorde AGM’s). On the usual electrical equipment end, I use a Greaves Shoo-Pin PT131FX20 as the appropriate reducer to a THHN stranding #2/0 size (available through our local Graybar store, drop shipped to my office). Because I am using a Sunny Island, of course nothing #2 fits… so I have two Polaris style connectors in the trough below the SI where I switch from the Shoo-Pins to four #1 THHN to go up into the SI batt terminals (two conductors per pole). In fact, I am wrapping up one of these installs right now. Don’t know if this helps, -Glenn ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity from the sun since 1979 Online Solar Store Free
Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Cable REvistied
In the Navy we used to use DC-4, which was a silicone grease made by Dow Corning. It has a high melting point. Any of the similar silicone greases would probably work, but rather expensive in small quantities – but you only need a very thin coat. We used to use it to fill up RF transmitter coax connectors that were exposed to salt water – which was almost anyplace on the ship that was outside. http://www4.dowcorning.com/DataFiles/090007c8801e254b.pdf Available also from most electrical, or online at many places. Here in Arizona, EVERYTHING gets over 100 ;p Getting a good seal on the heat shrink is a problem, and there is no real good solution – even if you start with a good seal, sharp flexing can break it and all you need is a pinhole. From: R Ray Walters Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 12:53 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Cable REvistied We use the same inner melt heat shrink, I think. You don't know you have a problem, until you cut that pretty heat shrink off 5 years later, and see what is happening underneath. The reason we use the vaseline, is that it remains conductive, so we can precoat the connectors before assembling and tightening. (Windy Dankoff taught us that one) I would see the 3M coating as something to spray on after, but I would be concerned about using it on contact surfaces before. I agree, heat can be an issue, so we use a high temp grease for applications were the temp might get over 100 deg F. Maybe a combination might work best: grease on the contact surfaces before, and 3M spray outside after? R. Walters r...@solarray.com Solar Engineer On Nov 30, 2010, at 9:47 AM, Warren Lauzon wrote: We use the “inner melt” type of heat shrink and have had few problems with it compared to the standard heat shrink. As far as Lead plated lugs, I am not sure I see much advantage to them. Also as far as coatings go, most Vaseline and other standard grease type are way too temperature sensitive, and in hot weather they just melt away – and they are also great dust/bug/dirt gatherers. 3M and others make a spray on coating that hardens somewhat that we have found to be much better. From the 3M website “Scotch® Insulating Sprays 1601 and 1602 are electrical-grade, fast-drying enamel sealers and insulators in pressurized cans. Full Description » These sealers protect surfaces against weather, moisture, corrosion, oil, alkalies and acids. The sprays can afford easy access to hard-to-reach spots. Use Insulating Spray sealers to spray over insulation on wire and cable splices, as a general-purpose sealer, or for touch-up insulation on motor windings and frames. Sprays are available in clear, red or black.” The local Home Depot carries it here, also some electrical distributors. From: R Ray Walters Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 2010 9:26 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Cable REvistied HI Mark; Where do you get the lead plated lugs? We used to special order tin plated lugs from Del City, but they quit carrying them. I found that the grease or vaseline coating was the most important issue, though. Tin plated lugs would corrode just like the unplated ones, except they first would lose their plating. Lead plated lugs might just be the ticket, except you would still have to keep the corrosion from creeping up under the heat shrink to the copper cable. I've had cables with corrosion going up the cable strands for over 6 past the lug. And yes we use heat shrink with the sealing adhesive inside; the corrosion just travels right under it along the surface of the metal. I actually found electrical tape seals better, it just doesn't look near as good, so we still use heat shrink, and coat over the heat shrink with the vaseline (or grease). R. Walters r...@solarray.com Solar Engineer On Nov 30, 2010, at 9:09 AM, Mark Frye wrote: I recently worked with a telecom specification that required lead plated copper lugs on the battery side and I have been using the same on my own systems for some time now. How important is it to use lead plated lugs on the battery side? Is tin plated copper just as good so long as you coat well with grease etc.? Mark Frye Berkeley Solar Electric Systems 303 Redbud Way Nevada City, CA 95959 (530) 401-8024 www.berkeleysolar.com From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Glenn Burt Sent: Monday, November 29, 2010 6:03 PM To: 'RE-wrenches' Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Cable REvistied Hi Ray, I have for my last 2 battery jobs used the Cobra X-Flex in 2/0 size with MTW rating. At the battery end I have found the Thomas Betts 54163-TB lugs, available at my local Grainger store to be a good match both mechanically
Re: [RE-wrenches] Never seen this before...
Looks like I had forum permissions set wrong for images, it should work now so you can see the pictures even if not logged in or registered. Let me know if it does not work now. --- Warren Lauzon From: Allan Sindelar Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2010 11:58 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Never seen this before... Warren, Could you make the pix viewable without registering or logging in first? Thanks, Allan Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer EE98J Journeyman Electrician Positive Energy, Inc. 3201 Calle Marie Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.positiveenergysolar.com On 11/28/2010 11:08 AM, Warren Lauzon wrote: Most unusual blemished panel? http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/showthread.php?t=9900 See the close up picture there. --- Warren Lauzon Northern Arizona Wind Sun ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity from the sun since 1979 Online Solar Store Free Solar Discussion Forum ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] sw plus AGS
Any reason the Magnum would not work? Click for more information From: William Miller Sent: Sunday, November 28, 2010 9:00 PM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] sw plus AGS Jay: Just bought one two weeks ago from: http://www.affordable-solar.com/xantrex.generator.start.module.htm Yeah, that's right, $630.00. I looked extensively and this is the only source. William Miller At 03:03 PM 11/27/2010, you wrote: HI All, I'm looking for an SW plus AGS ( preferable) or relay module. Yea its a long shot. Any ideas? thanks, jay peltz power ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.449 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3285 - Release Date: 11/28/10 07:34:00 Please note new e-mail address and domain: William Miller Miller Solar Voice :805-438-5600 email: will...@millersolar.com http://millersolar.com License No. C-10-773985 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity from the sun since 1979 Online Solar Store Free Solar Discussion Forum ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] KD135 source?
Last I heard they had some of the junction box versions in stock but were out of the MC4 cable version. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979 Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. - Original Message - From: Allan Sindelar To: RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, April 19, 2010 8:14 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] KD135 source? Wrenches, A distributor told me today that Kyocera is currently out of KD135s, backordered until next month. With relatively few good 12V modules available these days, anyone know of a good distributor with KC125, KC130, or KD135s in current stock? Thank you, Allan -- ![endif]-- Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer EE98J Journeyman Electrician Positive Energy, Inc. 3201 Calle Marie Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.positiveenergysolar.com -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] sources of DC equipment
LED's pretty much last forever, have a poorer light spectrum. And what Dan said is basically correct in most cases. On a lumen for lumen basis LED's are not much different than CFL''s. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979 Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. - Original Message - From: Bill Loesch solar1onl...@charter.net To: Dan Fink dan...@otherpower.com; RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 11:11 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] sources of DC equipment Hi Dan, What am I not understanding? What is all the furor over LED if this is correct? Bill Loesch Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar - Original Message - From: Dan Fink dan...@hughes.net To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2010 10:47 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] sources of DC equipment SNIP Note that NONE of the LED products out there are more efficient than CFLs, so keep that in mind. SNIP ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] DC wire sizing
The original rationale was probably due more to solar panel costs more than anything else - at a time when solar was $10-15 a watt, and copper was cheap it made sense. But now that solar panels cost 1/5th as much and copper wire is 4x as much, probably not so much now. Nowadays it is quite often much more economical on systems with long wire runs to add more panel than to use bigger wire. Also, when that standard was adopted, there were still a lot of panels made in the 15.5 to 16.5 volt range, and 2/10th to 4/10th of a volt drop was more important to battery life and charging in hot weather, so that may have been a factor also. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979 Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. - Original Message - From: Kent Osterberg To: RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, April 12, 2010 10:51 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] DC wire sizing I know you wouldn't, Warren. Because it is much more economical (that means more kWh/$) to use a MPPT controller. But you would run a 100-volt 30-amp PV array to a MPPT charge controller that is 150 feet away. For that distance, it takes 1/0 wire to get the wire loss down to 1%. I'd probably settle for using 3 AWG copper with 2% loss. With the smaller wire, the looses are 29 watts more, but the system cost is less by at least $700. At $700/29 watts = $24/watt, the 1/0 wire is not a good choice. My question is: what is the rational for using 1% loss as the design objective. Why not 1/2%? Why not 2%? So far no one has offered an answer to that question; despite many claiming that 1% or 1.5% is always their design objective. In Home Power issue 104, December 2004 - January 2005, I showed that striving for low voltage drops in low-voltage systems doesn't mean you've got a good (economical) design. The spreadsheet I created for that article is no longer available, but one that is easier to use is available from Ray Walters' web site. In SolarPro 3.2, February - March 2010, Blake Gleason shows an example where upsizing the wire size to get 2.6% loss is not economical. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar, Inc. Warren Lauzon wrote: I would never design such a system. That is what MPPT controllers are for. 10 years ago we did not have that choice, but now we do, so there is no reason at all to design a 40 amp 12 volt array circuit. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979 Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. - Original Message - From: Kent Osterberg To: Wrenches Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2010 9:22 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] DC wire sizing Here's my challenge to all of you that want to design for 1% or 1.5% voltage drop all the time: Take a 50-ft circuit carrying 40 amps at 12 volts, going to a C40 charge controller, select your wire size for 1% or 1.5% loss. You know that's not a practical solution. I know that it makes more sense to replace the charge controller and run the PV circuit at a higher voltage. At % loss did it become impractical? Ray's answer and my answer is when there is a cheaper alternative -- lower cost per watt out or lower cost per kWh over the project life. And that answer works even when you are considering a 400-kW PV array that is 1000 feet away. Kent Osterberg Blue Mountain Solar, Inc. -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] windenergy7
Their patented mounting system (!) will not make up for the laws of physics. And even if it worked as claimed (small wind turbine systems never do, especially if roof mounted) it is still pretty expensive. They claim 1400 watts, but typically such an install would get around 1/4 of that for most people. $6000 would buy a small grid tie solar system. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979 Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. - Original Message - From: Kirk Herander, VSE To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2010 3:57 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] windenergy7 Check this out: this company claims to have patented a mounting system which will allow their 1.4kw machine (or multiples thereof) to be mounted on a roof ridge. I cannot find a power curve of their product on their website, amongst other things. Opinions, experiences please, thanks. www.windenergy7.com . Kirk Herander Vermont Solar Engineering 802.863.1202 NABCEP(tm) Certified Solar Installer NYSERDA-eligible Installer VT Solar Incentive Program Partner -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] PV excellent battery charger
To be honest, I don't think the question makes any sense. There are several right answers, but no good ones. I hope that is not the extent of the battery questions on that exam. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979 Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. - Original Message - From: Drake Chamberlin To: RE-wrenches Sent: Saturday, March 27, 2010 9:28 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] PV excellent battery charger Hi Dave, At 10:44 AM 3/26/2010, you wrote: Is the answer here (at least the one that NABCEP intends) just that the VMP of a 12V module is higher than the voltage of a 12V battery? With the higher voltage it will charge the battery with its corresponding current based on the I-V curve. The objective reads Explain why PV modules make excellent battery chargers based on their I-V characteristics This may be the answer they want. The Objectives deals with the 5 key points on the IV curve, Vmp, Imp, Voc, Isc and Pmp. From a study of the curve, the obvious excellent load is one that takes power from Pmp, which direct battery charging doesn't do. When I draw the curve, the Vmp of the module is above the resulting voltage on the curve. What you say about the power loss not being released as heat in the batteries, just not produced, makes sense to me. I've never seen any real documentation about what happens to the power not gained in a non MPPT battery charging system. We can definitely agree that excellent battery charger is an exaggeration. Thanks, Drake Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP TM Certified PV Installer Office - 740-448-7328 Mobile - 740-856-9648 -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Missing MC4 Connectors?
And it does not help that MC connectors are only one of several types, such as Tyco and others. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979 Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. - Original Message - From: William Miller To: jry...@netscape.com ; RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 12:47 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Missing MC4 Connectors? Jeff: This is not the first time this has happened. QC problems left us without the bulkhead MC connectors for 2 months some time ago. I've ranted before about requiring specialized hardware. The practice increases costs and restricts supply. I prefer the gold old days where commonly available NMLT and THWN were the only materials required. Top down procedures have made this obsolete, alas... There are third party options now. Have you tried Wieland Electric? Good luck. William Miller At 06:56 PM 3/24/2010, you wrote: We normally keep a good supply of pre-made module MC4 M/F cables in stock, but several recent large projects really lowered our inventory. No problem, I will just call our suppliers and order more. Wrong! Am I the last installer on earth to find out there are no more MC4 connectors? After checking into this I heard something about a run on these conenctors due to problems with supplier, but don't really know the story. Does anybody know what is going on - is this a 2 week delay type problem, or are we all going to have multiple $50,000.00 jobs on hold for months while we wait for a handfull of $4 connectors? Jeff Yago DTI Solar _ Netscape. Just the Net You Need. ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.791 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2768 - Release Date: 03/24/10 12:33:00 Please note new e-mail address and domain: William Miller Miller Solar Voice :805-438-5600 email: will...@millersolar.com http://millersolar.com License No. C-10-773985 -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Uni-Solar PV (formerly 5' peel stick)
OK, big OOPS on my part here - I was thinking of the solar shingles, not the long rolls. I should not post things before my first coffee. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979 Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. - Original Message - From: Starlight Solar To: RE-wrenches Sent: Monday, March 22, 2010 2:20 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Uni-Solar PV (formerly 5' peel stick) High temperature losses? Discontinued PVL's? First off, the PVL product is all that they produce and still in production today. The truth is that Uni-Solar is the BEST PV solar for high temperature performance that you can buy. Temperature coeff. is only 0.21!! All other PV modules only wish they could keep up. With bypass diodes on every cell, it is the ONLY true shade tolerant PV solar. As for failure, I only had one framed module fail (5 years ago) and no PVL's. While it is true that a failed PVL presents a replacement problem, swap a 16 roof panel, the durability and performance make it far more desirable for a hot climate. Most installers are not located in hot climates and don't really understand the great importance of a low temperature coefficient and the effect it has over a lifetime. As for cost, they are much less than you have stated. Our retail price is $4.50/watt but you get to deduct the mounting structure cost, do the installation on the roof panels in your shop before being installed by the roofer and have easy wiring under the roof cap. Being a US made product seals the deal for me. I wish the company would have done better financially and taken more of a market share but they seem to have had their reputation tarnished due to baseless rumors. Hmm. BTW, the US-64 was off their site just after they canceled the product. That day for me was as sad as when Ford canceled the Pantera. Cheers, Larry Crutcher Uni-Solar Certified Installer Starlight Solar Power Systems (928) 342-9103 Mailing Address: 11881 S. Fortuna Road, #210 Yuma, AZ 85367 Retail Store Shipping Address: 2998 Shari Ave. Yuma, Az 85365 - Original Message - From: Warren Lauzon To: RE-wrenches Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2010 6:53 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Peel-n-stick Uni-Solar: were these ever made in5' length? The US-64's were on their site for 3+ years after they discontinued them. They don't keep it updated very well. I believe the main reasons the peel and stick were discontinued was high failure rates, high temperature losses (due to very little heat/air dissapation), and the difficulties in removing and replacing bad panels. Cost was also a factor - on the order of $8-10 per watt. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979 Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. - Original Message - From: Drake Chamberlin To: RE-wrenches Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2010 8:13 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Peel-n-stick Uni-Solar: were these ever made in 5' length? At 11:02 AM 3/20/2010, you wrote: the whole peel-n-stick product line seems to be no more. Is that right? They still have them on their web site. http://www.uni-solar.com/uploadedFiles/PVL-136EN%28AA4-3697-04%29.pdf Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP TM Certified PV Installer Office - 740-448-7328 Mobile - 740-856-9648 -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Peel-n-stick Uni-Solar: were these ever made in 5' length?
The US-64's were on their site for 3+ years after they discontinued them. They don't keep it updated very well. I believe the main reasons the peel and stick were discontinued was high failure rates, high temperature losses (due to very little heat/air dissapation), and the difficulties in removing and replacing bad panels. Cost was also a factor - on the order of $8-10 per watt. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979 Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. - Original Message - From: Drake Chamberlin To: RE-wrenches Sent: Sunday, March 21, 2010 8:13 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Peel-n-stick Uni-Solar: were these ever made in 5' length? At 11:02 AM 3/20/2010, you wrote: the whole peel-n-stick product line seems to be no more. Is that right? They still have them on their web site. http://www.uni-solar.com/uploadedFiles/PVL-136EN%28AA4-3697-04%29.pdf Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric OH License 44810 CO License 3773 NABCEP TM Certified PV Installer Office - 740-448-7328 Mobile - 740-856-9648 -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Small Wh and large LRA
The kicker is the large startup, so you may need to use batteries with low internal resistance, such as the Concorde AGM's. You will also have to make sure your cables are good for the max current to avoid any voltage drop which would cause a low voltage shutdown. Aside from that, just go with around 200-250 AH of battery storage (assuming 12 volts). A pair of golf car size batteries would probably work if they are something like Crown or Trojan. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979 Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. - Original Message - From: Mark Dickson To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Wednesday, March 17, 2010 2:56 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Small Wh and large LRA Hello Wrenches, I've been asked to design a battery based PV system for a load that has a high start up surge of about 62A @ 115V. The thing is, once it is running it will only run for ~10 minutes per day at 11A. So the daily loads are very low. How do I size a battery bank large enough to handle the large start-up surge, yet reasonable enough to cover the modest daily load? Is there a rule-of-thumb for this? Best regards, Mark Dickson, NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer T Oasis Montana Inc. -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Pump choice - Grundfos or Lorentz; distributers of Lorentz
At one time Dankoff (the pre-Conergy Dankoff Solar) handled the the Lorentz submersibles. They dropped them after about a year because of failures. Now, that was several years ago and Lorentz may have gotten their problems fixed, but we have felt more comfortable with the Grundfos. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979 Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. - Original Message - From: Jeff Lahl To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 6:48 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pump choice - Grundfos or Lorentz;distributers of Lorentz Bob, Innovative Solar is one company that can help you with the Lorentz pumps. 866-856-9819 We're currently ordering 3 pump systems for West Africa and ended up using both Grundfos SQF and Lorentz. We've had good luck with Grundfos in the past but our needs in some cases exceeded what the SQF could pump so will be trying Lorentz for the first time. I was hesitant after hearing some unfavorable things about Lorentz but have been told that the latest versions have the problems worked out. I'm afraid I don't recall what the original problems were supposed to be but I'm sure others on the list will contribute their experiences. It will be interesting to see how both systems hold up in the same environment. Another company to check out for a full range in pumps is Sunpumps. www.sunpumps.com 800 370-8115. Good luck, Jeff Jeff Lahl | Project Director Solar Electric Light Fund | www.self.org p 808-874-5706 f 808-874-5706 energy is a human rightT Change a life. Change the world From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bob Clark Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2010 7:22 AM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pump choice - Grundfos or Lorentz; distributers of Lorentz Wrenches: I know from searching the archives that the virtues of Grundfos vs. Lorentz pumps have been discussed briefly, but seemingly not lately. If I am repeating something, please direct me to previous discussion threads. Stock watering situation: Total Dynamic Head = 212 feet; 48.5 degrees north latitude; need 1250 gallons per day in July and August; can pump a maximum of 3 gallons per minute from a developed spring without drawing down the water level; 2300 gallons total water storage capacity (1700 gallon tank and 600 gallon trough). Going to try to not use batteries. I think it can just barely be done with the allowable flow. I am looking at possibly using the Lorentz Solar Pump PS600. It appears to be quite versatile which is important for fine-tuning this particular stock watering system. Any comments or suggestions about this pump (suitability, reliability, cost) vs. the Grundfos 6 SQF-2? Distributers for the Lorentz pump? Bob Clark SolarWind Energy Systems, LLC -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Rennsteig Crimper Tool
Uhm. not quite. The insistence of MC to use their tool has nothing to do with code, NEC, UL, or anything else. It has to do with (1) sales, (2) liability, and (3) quality control. For (2) it means that if a connector fails, burns down the house, and kills 93 chickens that they are not liable because you did not use their tool. For (3) There are or at least have been in the past attempts to use crimping tools that were totally not meant for MC connectors, and there was also at least one junky Chinese(?) knockoff that was way out of spec. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979 Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. - Original Message - From: Mark Frye To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2010 9:41 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rennsteig Crimper Tool Humm, I know I am only supposted to use Listed parts in my electrical assemblies, but hey, I know galvanized water pipe is the same as electrical conduit I find this thread somewhat disturbing in that it supports the idea of undermining manufactures requirements at the whim of the installer [just as long as you don't get caught by the inspector ;-)]. Scroll up a few post and find folks singing the praise of inverter manufacturers, confirming the need to strictly abide by their requirements as documented ...this willingness to subvert clearly stated manufacturer requirements for the sack of a few hundred bucks peals off the vanier of emerging maturity and reveals the underlying backwards-ness inherent in the PV industry... Mark Frye Berkeley Solar Electric Systems 303 Redbud Way Nevada City, CA 95959 (530) 401-8024 www.berkeleysolar.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] single string of batts: must the interconnects be inverter size cables?
We usually figure that (for example) in a 2-string bank, that one conductor could carry 2/3 of the current if the batteries are unbalanced for some reason. In other words, rather than cutting the amperage rating in half, we cut it by about 1/3. For 3 banks would cut it by 1/2, etc. Probably not ideal in theory, as in a worst case scenario you could have one totally failed bank, but on the other hand selling the customer on a full array of expensive 4/0 jumpers is not always an easy thing to do. In fact if someone is using that much battery, they should probably be using a 24 or 48 volt system. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979 Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. - Original Message - From: Allan Sindelar To: RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 10:03 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] single string of batts: must the interconnects be inverter size cables? Phil, Given the scenario that Mick presented, your advice is sound, and I'd do as you suggest. But by changing the scenario just a bit, it brings up a separate but related issue. Mick's scenario describes two 12V batteries in series, or a single string. In that case all current flows through the one string, so a series interconnect would need to be sized equal to the battery cables, in this case 4/0. But if there were two (or more) parallel strings, would the same size requirement apply? That is, if a battery bank had two strings, in theory each would carry 180 max amps (your example, 8,000/22, shared by 2 strings), which is within the ampacity of 2/0 interconnects. In reality, this only applies if current is equally spread among strings. Is it? It seems to me that a properly wired and torqued set will split current paths equally until a cell fails, either prematurely or when the set approaches end of life. If there are three strings, then failure of one cell/string in this example would still not exceed ampacity on the remaining 2/0 strings. As with many issues, the goal is to find a balance between safety and performance versus cost and worst-case accommodation. I will always use 4/0 with one cell string and a 250A breaker, but I have never seen a real-world problem using 2/0 interconnects, both series and parallel, with 2 or more strings. Phil, what do you say? Others? ![endif]-- Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer EE98J Journeyman Electrician Positive Energy, Inc. 3201 Calle Marie Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.positiveenergysolar.com Phil Undercuffler wrote: The interconnects are part of the circuit. Typical flexible cables used with batteries are THW rated (75C column), so in free air 2/0 interconnects would be good for 265 amps, before any temperature derates. Therefore, you'd be safe from a NEC point of view. However, if the inverter manufacturer has recommended 4/0 cables, then that recommendation would apply to all cables in the circuit. Battery based inverters are asked to surge many times their rated capacity -- a 24V 4kW inverter surging to 2x capacity (pretty normal circumstances) is going to draw over 360 amps (8,000 / 22), even if only for a short period of time. You don't want your interconnects to be the weak link in the system, causing shutdowns due to undervoltage unnecessarily. I'd use 4/0. Phil Undercuffler Conergy On Fri, Feb 19, 2010 at 12:01 PM, Mick Abraham m...@abrahamsolar.com wrote: Example: 12 two volt battery cells in one 24 volt string. 4kW inverter/charger has 250 amp DC breaker size and 4/0 cables...as the inverter folks would want. So...do the cell to cell interconnect cables have to also be 4/0? In the example above, 2/0 interconnects would suffice from the standpoint of basic safety...and even from the voltage drop standpoint...right? Inverter company people may be best qualified to answer this, but any replies will be appreciated. While I'm at it: do the inverter folks request oversize cables because they want more capacitance on the DC input...or what? Jolliness, Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Voice: 970-731-4675 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] single string of batts: must the interconnects beinverter size cables?
Just for info, here is a good example of how and how not to wire up batteries for balanced amperage draw http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/batt_con.html .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979 Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. - Original Message - From: Doug Wells dwe...@thesolarspecialists.com To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2010 7:15 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] single string of batts: must the interconnects beinverter size cables? I have always used 4/0 through out the bank. I guess that I have had to replace to many dead batteries at this point. If you are under sizing the parallel strings, what happens when a cell fails? or 2 cells fail. Now all the current would be carried by one string. If you are running equal lengths to a buss bar, it might make sense to put a current limiting fuse on each parallel run before the bus. However, this would pretty much negate any money save on downsizing the copper. So what is really gained? Doug Wells The Solar Specialists Morrisville, VT 05661 (p) 802-223-7014 (c) 802-498-5856 www.thesolarspecialists.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] calculating DC voltage line loss
We have this one http://www.windsun.com/Hardware/Voltage_Calc.htm on our info site. Not very elegant, as it was done in a couple of hours (we really need to get that cleaned up...) but it works. It is the similar to many others but we had it modified by a java script programmer to allow any voltage to be entered. There are others like it out there. Mike Holt electric used to have a bunch, but their site seems to have gone dead. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979 Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. - Original Message - From: Marco Mangelsdorf To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2010 12:48 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] calculating DC voltage line loss Can anyone pass on a good website address that provides the means to calculate DC line loss over distance? The ones that I've come across don't allow for entering in whatever you want as far as specified DC voltage. Thanks, marco Marco Mangelsdorf, President 69 Railroad Avenue, A-7 Hilo, Hawai'i 96720 (808) 969-3281, 934-7462 facsimile www.provision-solar.com -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org image001.jpg___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Rennsteig Crimper Tool
Our experience in dealing direct with MC has been less than stellar. We ran into the problems you described, and more. We had ordered quite a bit of stuff (over $12,000), and yet the tools and several other items were backordered not weeks, but months. Just one example is that they sent one of the tools, but the dies were not expected to be available for 5+ months. We finally gave up on them. Yet they expected us to pay for it ALL when they sent the first dribblings. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979 Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. - Original Message - From: Doug Pratt To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2010 1:15 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rennsteig Crimper Tool Rennsteig shared many, many MBs of independent 3rd party test results using various brands of crimpers with various brands of connectors, on various types of wire that were then subjected to incredibly precise resistance and pull tests. I came away thoroughly convinced that the Rennsteig is more than equal to (actually a bit better) than the Multi-Contact tool. And, if you recall, there were a few months toward the end of '09 when it seemed everyone was tooling up for MC4 connectors. Multi-Contact couldn't come close to keeping up with demand. During the worst of it they couldn't even predict when we'd get our next shipment, or how many crimpers would be in that shipment. Pretty lame for a company that's making $200 profit per crimper. We had desperate dealers with contracts that HAD to finish installation by year end even offering bribes. (My favorite was the home-smoked wild pig ham, which I will admit did have some effect on my actions. He's also one of my best dealers.) Coming down the pike very soon we'll be seeing other brands of connectors that are fully-compatible with the Multi-Contact MC4 connector. Apparently MC doesn't have a patent lock on this connector. There's at least a couple European brands and probably some Asian ones too, currently beating their way thru UL listing. I know at least one of them specifies the Rennsteig as the preferred crimping tool. So, is it cheaper hardware that could potentially bring on performance and liability problems? Ha! Not at all. It's just better hardware at a non-gouging price. The MC branded tool is, of course, still available also. Cheers, Doug Pratt DC Power Systems From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Warren Lauzon Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2010 11:24 AM To: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rennsteig Crimper Tool Uhm. not quite. The insistence of MC to use their tool has nothing to do with code, NEC, UL, or anything else. It has to do with (1) sales, (2) liability, and (3) quality control. For (2) it means that if a connector fails, burns down the house, and kills 93 chickens that they are not liable because you did not use their tool. For (3) There are or at least have been in the past attempts to use crimping tools that were totally not meant for MC connectors, and there was also at least one junky Chinese(?) knockoff that was way out of spec. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979 Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. - Original Message - From: Mark Frye To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2010 9:41 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Rennsteig Crimper Tool Humm, I know I am only supposted to use Listed parts in my electrical assemblies, but hey, I know galvanized water pipe is the same as electrical conduit I find this thread somewhat disturbing in that it supports the idea of undermining manufactures requirements at the whim of the installer [just as long as you don't get caught by the inspector ;-)]. Scroll up a few post and find folks singing the praise of inverter manufacturers, confirming the need to strictly abide by their requirements as documented ...this willingness to subvert clearly stated manufacturer requirements for the sack of a few hundred bucks peals off the vanier of emerging maturity and reveals the underlying backwards-ness inherent in the PV industry... Mark Frye Berkeley Solar Electric Systems 303 Redbud Way Nevada City, CA 95959 (530) 401-8024 www.berkeleysolar.com
Re: [RE-wrenches] single string of batts: must the interconnects beinverter size cables?
In your case, yes the battery cables should also be 4/0. They are carrying the same load as the inverter cables. Max amp rating on 2/0 is around 190 amps, and that inverter can surge to well over 250, even though at 4kw it would pull around 180. And a nitpick - those are not cells, they are batteries. Each battery has 6 cells. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979 Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. - Original Message - From: Mick Abraham To: RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, February 19, 2010 12:01 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] single string of batts: must the interconnects beinverter size cables? Example: 12 two volt battery cells in one 24 volt string. 4kW inverter/charger has 250 amp DC breaker size and 4/0 cables...as the inverter folks would want. So...do the cell to cell interconnect cables have to also be 4/0? In the example above, 2/0 interconnects would suffice from the standpoint of basic safety...and even from the voltage drop standpoint...right? Inverter company people may be best qualified to answer this, but any replies will be appreciated. While I'm at it: do the inverter folks request oversize cables because they want more capacitance on the DC input...or what? Jolliness, Mick Abraham, Proprietor www.abrahamsolar.com Voice: 970-731-4675 -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Grid-Tie Upgrade Problem
The Vmp of those is 33.7 volts, so what you might want to do is just come up with a set of panels that would equal 10 of the SX120's within 5% or less. As I recall, the SX120's had a rather poor temperature coefficient compared to todays panels, so that might be hard to match up. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979 Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. - Original Message - From: Allan Sindelar To: RE-wrenches Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 8:07 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid-Tie Upgrade Problem Fellow Wrenches, One of our first batteryless grid-tied installations needs an upgrade and I need to ask this list for suggestions re how it might be done. In late 2001 we installed two poles in the ground at a home. On one pole we mounted ten BP SX120s on a dual-axis Wattsun tracker. Input fed an SMA SB2500 inverter. The idea was that we would install 1/2 of the system then (what the customer could afford), with the infrastructure in place to add a second tracked array later. The system has worked flawlessly since then. Nine years (!) later the customer wants to add to the system, and I'd like to use the original approach if at all possible. We can fit up to around 1500 watts onto the existing inverter, but it must be in the form of ten 72-cell modules of similar Vmp, temperature deration coefficient, and fill factor. I am imagining ten 150W 24Vnom polycrystalline modules, but I don't know of any currently made. I thought it would be easy - ten Kyocera KC130s or KD135s, until a coworker pointed out that these are 12V modules - duh... Any suggested solutions out there? Thank you, Allan -- ![endif]-- Allan Sindelar al...@positiveenergysolar.com NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer EE98J Journeyman Electrician Positive Energy, Inc. 3201 Calle Marie Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507 505 424-1112 www.positiveenergysolar.com -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Refractometer vs Hydrometer?
Have any of us here ever heard of a world renowned battery guru? You have to wonder why, if they are world renowned, they have to do home shows. Refractometers have been used quite commonly in labs, but those are in the $500 an up range. Some pretty decent ones for home use are in the $75-$150 range. I have seen some for sale for under $40 but have no idea how accurate they are. Refractometers are pretty commonly used in beer brewing and in salt water fish tanks. One thing you have to be very careful of with Refractometers is bubbles and/or any particles which will throw the readings way off. You also need to rinse them in distilled water between uses, but that goes for most hydrometers also. But all that said, it kind of sounds more like a wiring, wire size, or connection problem with the widely varying amperage you are getting. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979 Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. - Original Message - From: d...@foxfire-energy.com To: RE-wrenches Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 6:04 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Refractometer vs Hydrometer? I'm confoosed.. . I got a call from an old client complaining that their trace meter was wacky... seems it always read like 80% or something -- never reset?.. (48V -- 4 strings of UL16 -- 5 years old -- Off Grid). I asked about the last time they equalized, and they proudly reported that they hadn't had to eq. in over a year and a half because an industry renowned battery guru they met at a home show advised them that they no longer needed to equalize because their new Desulphators (that he sold them), made equalizing unnecessary.. (One for every two batteries all neatly wire tied to the cables.. blinking LEDs and everything) .. .. and that their specific gravity levels were right on the money (as checked with their new refractometer Mr Battery guy also sold them).. I asked them to check Batt. hi on the trace meter, and it read like 57V .. I suggested they equalize with the Gen Set..to 61Volts.. which did make the trace meter reset.. but they never got the bank over 59 Volts.. in over 12 hrs... and the batteries were starting to get hot... so I suggested they shut down, and I planned a trip down Got on site, pulled the strings apart, and checked for dead cells.. everything checked out ok... didn't have a hydrometer with me (seems they threw theirs out .. on the advice of Mr. Battery guru).. so I took their word on the refractometer readings... reconnected everything and fired up the gen set... had 80 amp in (measured with a Fluke 337), 13 something on one string, 29 on one, 24 on another and like 14 on the last. (the two lowest were on the outside.. coolest? -- the bank was still kinda warm) ... I suggested they let the bank cool completely, and try again in a few days... (Maybe even eq each string individually as a last resort). In checking thru the set points, I noticed many were wonky.. so I called tech support folks for the latest they told me that the factory defaults for gen start / stop often resulted in Deficit Cycling.. and that proper settings were actually like 4 Volts higher (For both the 15 min. and the 2 hr start cycles).. they also told me small desulphators were a waste of money, and that refractometers were unreliable at best... now my customer is looking at me for answers... (I'm sending them a good hydrometer).. I'm hoping you folks might set me straight (er).. thanks db Dan Brown President Foxfire Energy Corp. Renewable Energy Systems (802)-483-2564 www.Foxfire-Energy.com NABCEP #092907-44 Original Message Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] ecoSolargy PV modules From: Keith Cronin electrich...@yahoo.com Date: Fri, February 12, 2010 4:25 pm To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Bob They have contacted me and seem eager to distribute their products. Keith From: Bob Clark bcl...@solar-wind.us To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Thu, February 11, 2010 5:02:17 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] ecoSolargy PV modules RE-Wrenches: Does anyone have experience with ecoSolargy PV modules: http://www.ecosolargy.com/# ? Bob Clark SolarWind Energy Systems, LLC P.O. Box 1234 Okanogan, WA 98840 (509) 826-1259 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings:
Re: [RE-wrenches] Refractometer vs Hydrometer?
I am inclined to agree with that. We are in the process of revising our recommendations on equalizing. It perhaps made sense to do so every month or so 20 years ago, but I am wondering if that really is a good idea with the current state of battery chargers and controllers. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979 Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. - Original Message - From: R Ray Walters r...@solarray.com To: d...@independentpowerllc.com; RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Saturday, February 13, 2010 2:42 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Refractometer vs Hydrometer? Sounds like: C) I no longer recommend monthly EQing, but I think its a good idea when either the bank has not reached full charge for several weeks, or battery voltages, string currents, or specific gravity readings indicate EQing is necessary. New controllers with temp compensation, PWM, and 3 stage charging take much better care of the batteries. Monthly EQing IMHO is a relic from the C30 days, and now results in unnecessary over heating and over watering. Are these perhaps a Rolls L 16? R. Walters r...@solarray.com Solar Engineer On Feb 13, 2010, at 10:14 AM, d...@independentpowerllc.com wrote: Dan, You are on the right track. I've been off the Desulphators for years because I had so many systems without them that were lasting years longer than predicted between battery swap outs. I don't know about refractometer vs hydrometer. I use and trust a glass in glass hydrometer. Are these bats Trojan L-16's? 4 strings of L-16's @ 48v seems like (32) bats. Is that correct. That doesn't sound right. In general. Battery Charge rates of between C-10 to C-20 for PV. And with an engine generator C-8 to C-12. Limit parallel strings to two (three at most in rare cases). All battery charging needs good control, proper settings, temperature comp, and somebody who understands how it all works to teach the homeowner and be there to answer questions. We teach the proper use of the hydrometer as a tool that confirms actual battery condition. We strongly recommend that batteries are fully recharged at least every week to ten days. Fully recharged means (for me) that the voltage has gotten up to 59 volts (48v system) and stayed there for a minimum of two hours (confirm effectiveness of time and battery charge level with TriMetric meter amp function here, should have tapered down below 12 amps on a typical 48v battery bank with voltage still at absorb level (59), can confirm more definitively with a hydrometer here). Of course individual systems, and battery types, vary. Properly programmed, and understood, TriMetric monitoring is very useful here. Use hydrometer to check on how this is all working out for the system. Frequency of hydrometer use varies with owner's experience level and system age. Check for all cells to be charged and within 15 basis points, highest to lowest, to be confirmed as fully charged. I find that a TriMetric monitor helps with the teaching and troubleshooting process. Different end users understand it and learn how to use it with varying degrees of success. Helps in a high percentage of our off-grid systems. Sent via BlackBerry by ATT -Original Message- From: d...@foxfire-energy.com Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2010 06:04:03 To: RE-wrenchesre-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Refractometer vs Hydrometer? ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Couple of Qustions about AGM batteries
The answer to systems not being used is nearly always leave them on float. However, 2 amps seems a bit high for AGM batteries unless you have some kind of phantom load. Equalization for AGM's is different and for a different purpose than with flooded. The current should be quite a bit less than you would need for a flooded, since the purpose is not to stir the liquid up but simply to get all cells in the series up to the same state of charge. AGM's don't usually need much equalization. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979 Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. - Original Message - From: Peter Parrish peter.parr...@calsolareng.com To: re-wrenc...@re-wrenches.org Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 4:19 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Couple of Qustions about AGM batteries We have put together a 850 Wdc portable stand-alone PV system. It uses a Blue Sky 3024DiL charge controller, a pair of SunXtender 250 A-hr AGM batteries (24 volt configuration), and a Xantrex Prosine 1000 inverter. We have been using this system for powering events and getting some good marketing from the activities. Everything has worked out well, and the system is not being used now and probably won't until March or April sometime. We have let the system fully charge the batteries through bulk/absorption and now float. The float conditions are 26.4 V and 2.0 A at a battery temperature of 21 deg-C. My first question: is it alright to let the batteries float every day for the next 6 to 8 weeks, or should I disconnect them from the rest of the system until we are ready to use the system again? My second question: since the 3024iL can perform an equalization, is there a safe equalization procedure for these AGM batteries? - Peter Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President California Solar Engineering, Inc. 820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065 CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26 peter.parr...@calsolareng.com Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885 ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Dankoff Solar Pumps REVIVED by Innovative SolarSolutions
While it is good to see the Dankoff name back, I would also note that Innovative is a direct competitor to most people on this list. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979 Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. - Original Message - From: Windy Dankoff To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2010 8:33 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Dankoff Solar Pumps REVIVED by Innovative SolarSolutions Off-grid Wrenches, You probably know that Innovative Solar Solutions has purchased Conergy's solar water pumping division, previously known as Dankoff Solar Pumps. More info is at: http://www.innovativesolar.com/ They are using the Dankoff name again to identify the pump products, and even dusted of the old logo! They expect to be shipping products this coming week from the same Santa Fe facility, with the same production staff. I'm REALLY happy about this! They have extensive international experience with sales and applications of the Dankoff pumps, and have a fine reputation. I've met personally with both Erik and Lynn and I am impressed with their competence and their good attitudes. As daddy and former guru, I give them my blessing! I'm serving as a consultant to Innovative Solar to support the transition. I will be active on this list again, along with staff of Innovative Solar, until a satisfying transition is complete. And finally, I hope to see you at the Midwest Renewable Energy Fair in June! To set up an account with Innovative Solar, call (866) 856-9819 or email sa...@innovativesolar.com Your humble, Windy Dankoff -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback manuals in German or French
I tried running one of the Outback manuals through the Google translator, and it came out pretty awful in Spanish - it has problems with technical terms it seems. I don't know enough German to say either way. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979 Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. - Original Message - From: Jeff Oldham starpowe...@juno.com To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Friday, January 29, 2010 4:16 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback manuals in German or French I'm quite certain that you will not find the manuals you're looking for in Spanish for Outback. The one that you found is more like a quick start guide and does little to help anyone with programming and set-up. This is a real shortcoming of Outback as they have a very large Latin market, strangely only their charge controllers can switch their displays to Spanish and we would all prefer that if we could only have one it would be the MATE. They do have a very good bi-lingual tech, Sandra Herrera, direct: 360-618-4396 she can walk end users through most anything. From the Solar, Wind and Hydro powered office of Jeff Oldham/Regenerative SOLutions Small Business Tools Find solutions for your business. Click here and get it done now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2131/c?cp=9_RlRC2HzSBeL6mKHDjsRQAAJz3wjMeYFQQEj9ak8QigdzdLAAYAAADNAAARMQA= ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar World 175's
Try Hitney Solar, they usually have a few. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979 Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. - Original Message - From: David Palumbo To: 'RE-wrenches' Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 4:31 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar World 175's Does any one have ten SW175's they would like to sell? Or know of a source for same? I have a project needing 30 and I can get my hands on only 20 so far. I have tried AEE and have cleaned out Power UP so far. David Palumbo President, Independent Power LLC 462 Solar Way Drive, Hyde Park, VT 05655 NABCEP Certified www.independentpowerllc.com (802) 888-7194 -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Capacity loss due to rapid discharge
Re: [RE-wrenches] Capacity loss due to rapid dischargeThat is not quite true. Some of the loss is in heat due to internal resistance, and that cannot be recovered. High discharge rates also significantly affect overall battery life, which is not part of the equation but must be considered. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979 Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. - Original Message - From: Hugh To: RE-wrenches Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 2:41 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Capacity loss due to rapid discharge Thanks, Kent, It is clear then that high discharge rates have a big effect on the voltage, but only a small effect on the actual battery capacity. That was my instinct but it's good to have it confirmed. And this will be important information for those who use Peukert's Law 'naively' to conclude that a battery has dramatically lower capacity when discharged at higher rates. (In fact if it were true that capacity is reduced to this extent it would also have very serious implications for battery efficiency.)___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Water Pipes as Grounding Electrodes
Better than no ground at all, but not reliable. Some codes allow it, but we would never use it for a main ground. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979 Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. - Original Message - From: Ryan LeBlanc r...@naturalenergyworks.com To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 4:00 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Water Pipes as Grounding Electrodes I've had so much conflicting input on the points of Grounding Water pipes or using them as Grounding Electrodes for systems in places like New York and San Francisco. Could someone be kind enough to set me straight on the intentions, functions and applications of this? Ryan J. LeBlanc NABCEPT Certified Solar PV Installer Cell: 707.591.1950 Direct: 707.536.9839 r...@naturalenergyworks.com http://www.NaturalEnergyWorks.com ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Energy 120/240 inverter problem.
That is a problem we have not seen before with those inverters, though not unheard of with electronics in general. From my experience it is usually due to an electrolytic capacitor being out of spec (or wrong one)., but can also be from some solid state component, or even the main processor or ROM being out of spec for temperature. I would be curious if the inverters are all similar serial numbers and when they were manufactured. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979 Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. - Original Message - From: cvso...@aol.com To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2009 8:55 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Magnum Energy 120/240 inverter problem. Wrenches, We recently decided to try the relatively new 120/240 VAC inverter from Magnum for an off-grid customer. The inverter is located in a power shed which shares space with a wood gasifier hot water furnace to heat their house. Upon completing the hookup using an E-panel, we found that the inverter appeared to be dead on arrival. No activity when the DC breaker was turned on and the little on button pushed. We requested a replacement from our distributor and when returning to the job site a few days later with the new unit, decided to try the defective inverter one more time it turned on. Then we added another string of batteries and turned it back on again with no luck.. seemed to be intermittent. We then installed the new one and same result.. would not turn on. Seemed very unusual and the Magnum technician we talked to agreed. Our distributor then allowed us to send a person to pick up another inverter and get it to the job site. Same result, would not turn on. Now we have three inverters. Magnum suggested we hook one up and call them to troubleshoot over the phone. We hooked up each one in our shop first to see what would happen. One begrudgingly started to work after numerous attempts to get it to turn on, one would not turn on at all. We warmed that one with a heat gun (carefully, of course as to not damage it in any way) and it then fired up. Number three the same. Looks like it does not come close to the -4 F low end operating temperature. Our shop is 55 degrees F and the customers shed was at least 32F or higher with the furnace on. Outside temperature was near about 10 F. HAS ANYONE HAD GOOD LUCK WITH THIS MODEL IN A COLD ENVIRONMENT OR STARTING PROBLEMS AT ANY TEMPERATURE? I need some feedback to see if we can make this work. I like the idea of an off-grid only 120/240 inverter that is reasonably priced but we have COLD weather here. Our Outback systems routinely work in unheated power sheds. I am guessing that once they are turned on, they may have enough self generated heat to stay on. We reinstalled one late this afternoon and coaxed it alive with some external heat. We are trusting it to stay on and keep their heat on. John Blittersdorf NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer tm Central Vermont Solar Wind, LLC. 104 River Street Rutland, VT 05701 802-747-0577 802-773-0924 fax 802-770-8625 cell www.cvsolar.com -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] low voltage disconnect
The only way to really prevent that is to disconnect everything but the solar array. Unfortunately, more than once we have seen customers disconnect the array but leave other phantom loads on. When most inverters shut down on LV they are still drawing a few watts. And even with solar connected, if the voltage drops too low, the charge controller often will not start back up until reset. I suspect that could have happened in your case. .. Northern Arizona Wind Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since 1979 Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ .. - Original Message - From: Solar Plexus To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2009 4:22 PM Subject: [RE-wrenches] low voltage disconnect Wrenches. I have a customer with a stand-alone system with an XW inverter, XW controller, pole mounted array of four 235-watt panels, and 4 of the 8D gel batteries. He uses the system mostly on weekends. Winter came, the solar array was still set at about 30°, a snowstorm covered the panels while no one was there, and 4 days later the battery voltage was 6. The week-end use had been substantial, so I assume the batteries were low prior to the snowstorm. With no solar coming in, and loads still on, the battery voltage presumably went to Low Battery Cut Out voltage of 44 before the inverter disconnected the AC loads. With the AC loads disconnected, and no DC loads in the system, what caused the battery voltage to go to 6? I assume the XW controller used 2.5 watts continuous or 60 watt-hrs per day as battery voltage went from 44 volts to 10 volts when the controller would have shut off completely. What happens with the inverter when the battery goes below 44 volts? Does the inverter shut off and there is no more draw on the batteries, or does the inverter continue to draw the no-load draw of 28 watts, or does the inverter draw the search-load draw of 8 watts? At what voltage does the inverter stop drawing power? At 44 volts, the battery is presumed to be pretty dead. How many amp-hours are available in a 100 amp-hour 48v battery (4 12-v batteries in series) while drawing the voltage from 44 volts and 6 volts? Is there anything there or will the voltage just drop from 44 to 6 with very little power draw? The Low Voltage Disconnect is set for 44 volts, but if the inverter itself does not shut off, then the practical low voltage becomes the voltage the inverter stops working at. To protect the batteries, is there any advantage to limiting the low voltage to 44 volts as opposed to 6 volts. If so, is there some way to have the inverter shut itself off at low voltage? We have had this same thing happen with an Outback inverter, again taking the batteries to near zero. Is there any way that either the Outback or Sunny Island would operate differently than described above? Looking forward to any comments on these issues. Thank you. Lee Tavenner Solar Plexus -- ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org ___ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
