Re: [RE-wrenches] 600V charge controller questions

[Ray Walters]

We were called in on a system similar to this, and we ended up just 
installing an AC transfer switch.  Normally the GT array sold back to 
the grid side of the system, but in an extended outage, the customer had 
the option to switch the connection to the back up load side (AC coupled)
He was made aware that battery regulation could be an issue, and to 
switch off the GT array when the batteries got even close to full. 
Obviously this would not be acceptable in a full time off grid system, 
but this option could save your bacon in the very occasional long outage.
It boils down to:  Is it better to let the batteries remain discharged 
and the customer to have no power, or take a chance on over charging the 
batteries in an emergency?
Essentially, the system would remain full proof until they manually 
switched in the AC coupled system.  I look at this sort of like any 
other manual over ride switch: don't use it unless you understand the 
consequences, and really need it.  Add strongly worded warning stickers: 
" Danger Battery damage could result, Emergency use only!"
The other options you are considering would certainly be better, but at 
significantly more cost.


R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 1/30/2016 3:21 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:

Wrenches,
I am serving as a consultant for a homeowner with an array of solar 
equipment that doesn't do what he wants, a common story. He wants 
independence in the event of an extended utility outage. To cut to the 
chase:


He has one array of 3,100 watts feeding through a controller into a 
48V battery bank. No issues with this.
A second array of 4,230 rated watts (2 9-module strings of 235W Sharp 
modules) currently feeds a Fronius IG-4000 inverter and the grid. In 
the event of an outage this system shuts down, of course. He is 
looking at replacing his existing pair of old SW5548s with a single 
Schneider XW system, or possibly a Radian.
I would like to give him the ability to switch from the Fronius 
inverter to a 600V charge controller if either a) the grid went down 
or b) the Fronius failed.


I looked at Morningstar's TS-MPPT-600 controller with the DC transfer 
switch, but its DC output is rated as limited to 60A, less than the 
4.2kW output of the array. The spec sheet gives a nominal maximum 
wattage of 3,200W, although a note adds that "input power can exceed 
Nominal Maximum Operating Power, but controller will limit and provide 
its rated continuous maximum output current into batteries. This will 
not harm the controller."


I looked at Schneider's XW MPPT80 controller, which has the necessary 
higher capacity. But beside lacking any built-in or optional input 
metering, it lacks the transfer switch available with the Morningstar.


So questions:
- Is there a good transfer switch to use with the Schneider unit, to 
allow manual switching of the PV input between the Fronius (when the 
grid is up) and the controller and batteries (when the grid is down)?
- Should I use the Morningstar unit, recommending that the periodic 
flatlining due to the excess wattage be simply accepted as a small 
concession to being able to use the array during an extended outage?

- Is AC coupling simply a better approach?
- Any other solutions?

Thanks, Allan

--

*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 cell*

**



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Re: [RE-wrenches] 600V charge controller questions

[Roy Rakobitsch]

Allan, you could network multiple Morningstar 600v controllers for the
output ampacity required (up to 4 controllers, ...yeah, I know they are
expensive).

Would you even need a transfer switch? Why not just wire Fronius IG and
Morningstar controller inputs in parallel (with associated fuses and
disconnects of course). Once batteries are charged and in float, the array
then would be available to the IG to sell to the grid. If the IG goes down
(which it prob will eventually) then the MS 600v controller will charge the
batts enough to get by. Seems like it would work, am I missing something?

RoyR

Roy Rakobitsch
NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer®
Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue
Wind/PV Design Engineer
Windsine LLC
631-514-4166
www.windsine.org




On Sun, Jan 31, 2016 at 1:14 PM, Ray Walters  wrote:

> We were called in on a system similar to this, and we ended up just
> installing an AC transfer switch.  Normally the GT array sold back to the
> grid side of the system, but in an extended outage, the customer had the
> option to switch the connection to the back up load side (AC coupled)
> He was made aware that battery regulation could be an issue, and to switch
> off the GT array when the batteries got even close to full.  Obviously this
> would not be acceptable in a full time off grid system, but this option
> could save your bacon in the very occasional long outage.
> It boils down to:  Is it better to let the batteries remain discharged and
> the customer to have no power, or take a chance on over charging the
> batteries in an emergency?
> Essentially, the system would remain full proof until they manually
> switched in the AC coupled system.  I look at this sort of like any other
> manual over ride switch: don't use it unless you understand the
> consequences, and really need it.  Add strongly worded warning stickers: "
> Danger Battery damage could result, Emergency use only!"
> The other options you are considering would certainly be better, but at
> significantly more cost.
>
> R.Ray Walters
> CTO, Solarray, Inc
> Nabcep Certified PV Installer,
> Licensed Master Electrician
> Solar Design Engineer303 505-8760
>
> On 1/30/2016 3:21 PM, Allan Sindelar wrote:
>
> Wrenches,
> I am serving as a consultant for a homeowner with an array of solar
> equipment that doesn't do what he wants, a common story. He wants
> independence in the event of an extended utility outage. To cut to the
> chase:
>
> He has one array of 3,100 watts feeding through a controller into a 48V
> battery bank. No issues with this.
> A second array of 4,230 rated watts (2 9-module strings of 235W Sharp
> modules) currently feeds a Fronius IG-4000 inverter and the grid. In the
> event of an outage this system shuts down, of course. He is looking at
> replacing his existing pair of old SW5548s with a single Schneider XW
> system, or possibly a Radian.
> I would like to give him the ability to switch from the Fronius inverter
> to a 600V charge controller if either a) the grid went down or b) the
> Fronius failed.
>
> I looked at Morningstar's TS-MPPT-600 controller with the DC transfer
> switch, but its DC output is rated as limited to 60A, less than the 4.2kW
> output of the array. The spec sheet gives a nominal maximum wattage of
> 3,200W, although a note adds that "input power can exceed Nominal Maximum
> Operating Power, but controller will limit and provide its rated continuous
> maximum output current into batteries. This will not harm the controller."
>
> I looked at Schneider's XW MPPT80 controller, which has the necessary
> higher capacity. But beside lacking any built-in or optional input
> metering, it lacks the transfer switch available with the Morningstar.
>
> So questions:
> - Is there a good transfer switch to use with the Schneider unit, to allow
> manual switching of the PV input between the Fronius (when the grid is up)
> and the controller and batteries (when the grid is down)?
> - Should I use the Morningstar unit, recommending that the periodic
> flatlining due to the excess wattage be simply accepted as a small
> concession to being able to use the array during an extended outage?
> - Is AC coupling simply a better approach?
> - Any other solutions?
>
> Thanks, Allan
>
> --
>
> *Allan Sindelar*
> al...@sindelarsolar.com
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
> *505 780-2738 <505%20780-2738> cell*
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 600V charge controller questions

[jay]

HI Allan,

I’ll let you do the AC or DC couple choice.
However my suggestion if you do DC couple is to go Schneider for all.  Then you 
will have an integrated DC couple package.  Metering and control, they have new 
battery meter and full online capability. 

And one of the things I don’t like about the moringstar is that manual relay.  

You should be able to configure a relay to turn off the GT inverter and turn on 
the 600v CC automatically in the event of a power failure.
Not that I’ve looked for a 80 amp 600vdc one.  

jay

peltz power


> On Jan 30, 2016, at 2:21 PM, Allan Sindelar  wrote:
> 
> Wrenches,
> I am serving as a consultant for a homeowner with an array of solar equipment 
> that doesn't do what he wants, a common story. He wants independence in the 
> event of an extended utility outage. To cut to the chase:
> 
> He has one array of 3,100 watts feeding through a controller into a 48V 
> battery bank. No issues with this.
> A second array of 4,230 rated watts (2 9-module strings of 235W Sharp 
> modules) currently feeds a Fronius IG-4000 inverter and the grid. In the 
> event of an outage this system shuts down, of course. He is looking at 
> replacing his existing pair of old SW5548s with a single Schneider XW system, 
> or possibly a Radian. 
> I would like to give him the ability to switch from the Fronius inverter to a 
> 600V charge controller if either a) the grid went down or b) the Fronius 
> failed. 
> 
> I looked at Morningstar's TS-MPPT-600 controller with the DC transfer switch, 
> but its DC output is rated as limited to 60A, less than the 4.2kW output of 
> the array. The spec sheet gives a nominal maximum wattage of 3,200W, although 
> a note adds that "input power can exceed Nominal Maximum Operating Power, but 
> controller will limit and provide its rated continuous maximum output current 
> into batteries. This will not harm the controller." 
> 
> I looked at Schneider's XW MPPT80 controller, which has the necessary higher 
> capacity. But beside lacking any built-in or optional input metering, it 
> lacks the transfer switch available with the Morningstar.
> 
> So questions:
> - Is there a good transfer switch to use with the Schneider unit, to allow 
> manual switching of the PV input between the Fronius (when the grid is up) 
> and the controller and batteries (when the grid is down)?
> - Should I use the Morningstar unit, recommending that the periodic 
> flatlining due to the excess wattage be simply accepted as a small concession 
> to being able to use the array during an extended outage?
> - Is AC coupling simply a better approach?
> - Any other solutions?
> 
> Thanks, Allan
> 
> -- 
> Allan Sindelar
>  al...@sindelarsolar.com 
> 
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
> 505 780-2738 cell
> 
>  
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[RE-wrenches] 600V charge controller questions

[Allan Sindelar]

  
  
Wrenches,
I am serving as a consultant for a homeowner with an array of solar
equipment that doesn't do what he wants, a common story. He wants
independence in the event of an extended utility outage. To cut to
the chase:

He has one array of 3,100 watts feeding through a controller into a
48V battery bank. No issues with this.
A second array of 4,230 rated watts (2 9-module strings of 235W
Sharp modules) currently feeds a Fronius IG-4000 inverter and the
grid. In the event of an outage this system shuts down, of course.
He is looking at replacing his existing pair of old SW5548s with a
single Schneider XW system, or possibly a Radian. 
I would like to give him the ability to switch from the Fronius
inverter to a 600V charge controller if either a) the grid went down
or b) the Fronius failed. 

I looked at Morningstar's TS-MPPT-600 controller with the DC
transfer switch, but its DC output is rated as limited to 60A, less
than the 4.2kW output of the array. The spec sheet gives a nominal
maximum wattage of 3,200W, although a note adds that "input power
can exceed Nominal Maximum Operating Power, but controller will
limit and provide its rated continuous maximum output current into
batteries. This will not harm the controller." 

I looked at Schneider's XW MPPT80 controller, which has the
necessary higher capacity. But beside lacking any built-in or
optional input metering, it lacks the transfer switch available with
the Morningstar.

So questions:
- Is there a good transfer switch to use with the Schneider unit, to
allow manual switching of the PV input between the Fronius (when the
grid is up) and the controller and batteries (when the grid is
down)?
- Should I use the Morningstar unit, recommending that the periodic
flatlining due to the excess wattage be simply accepted as a small
concession to being able to use the array during an extended outage?
- Is AC coupling simply a better approach?
- Any other solutions?

Thanks, Allan

-- 
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
Allan Sindelar
  al...@sindelarsolar.com
  NABCEP Certified PV
Installation Professional
NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive
  Energy,
  Inc.
505 780-2738 cell


 
  

  

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