Re: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated.

[Andrew Truitt]

Anyone have any experience with the SMA Sunny Boy Storage for this
application?  Li+ compatible, HVDC bus, black-start capable... looks like
no generator input though.  I wonder how well it works when AC coupled with
with non-SMA inverters.



*Regards, *


*Andrew Truitt*

www.dr.ventures
d: 202.486.7507

NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional ID: 032407-66
Colorado Journeyman Electrician License No.: 600132

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On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 6:21 AM Will White  wrote:

> I agree with everything Ray has said when you're using a system with
> lead-acid batteries, however this doesn't apply to lithium-ion. Li
> batteries don't need multistage charging like LA batteries do so they would
> be a perfect fit for a retro-fit battery backup system that can only bulk
> charge.
>
> I'd also suggest people check out the Enphase IQ8 system which allows the
> inverters to operate without the grid with no storage. They should also be
> able to black start an AC coupled system with no grid unlike other AC
> coupled designs. I haven't seen it in person but two of my co-workers
> toured their demo project and it seems to live up to everything Enphase is
> claiming.
>
> Thanks,
> Will
>
> On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 8:38 PM Ray  wrote:
>
>> I didn't watch the whole thing, but it looked like a standard AC couple
>> set up with an Outback Radian.  My understanding is that Outback no longer
>> supports AC Coupling, BTW.  I would never use that for an off grid system
>> or  for longer outages.  In a very brief explanation,  it essentially
>> bypasses any charge controlling to the batteries, and puts full Array power
>> into the batteries until a relay (or phase shifting) disconnects the
>> array.  No three stage charging, no taper charging, no float, no temp
>> compensation.  Its like trying to fill a 5 gal bucket with a fire house, or
>> drive a car with a throttle that's either off or at full throttle, no in
>> between.  The other issue is that if the batteries get low and the inverter
>> shuts off, the system will not recharge, and after a couple of weeks the
>> batteries will be sulfated beyond recovery.
>>
>> My guess is that manus that advocated this approach got into trouble from
>> end users that fried expensive battery banks during longer outages.  I
>> would consider it the equivalent of cheap backup generators: a great backup
>> system for folks that don't need it.   There are probably thousands of
>> those out there with happy customers and installers, because its never
>> actually been used for more than a few hours, and the batteries are
>> properly charged from the grid 99.8% of the time.
>>
>> Ray Walters
>> Remote Solar
>> 303 505-8760
>>
>> On 9/12/18 6:11 PM, Ken Schaal wrote:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyhkIfS5Z-Q
>>
>>
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> Curriculum Developer
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated.

[Will White]

I agree with everything Ray has said when you're using a system with
lead-acid batteries, however this doesn't apply to lithium-ion. Li
batteries don't need multistage charging like LA batteries do so they would
be a perfect fit for a retro-fit battery backup system that can only bulk
charge.

I'd also suggest people check out the Enphase IQ8 system which allows the
inverters to operate without the grid with no storage. They should also be
able to black start an AC coupled system with no grid unlike other AC
coupled designs. I haven't seen it in person but two of my co-workers
toured their demo project and it seems to live up to everything Enphase is
claiming.

Thanks,
Will

On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 8:38 PM Ray  wrote:

> I didn't watch the whole thing, but it looked like a standard AC couple
> set up with an Outback Radian.  My understanding is that Outback no longer
> supports AC Coupling, BTW.  I would never use that for an off grid system
> or  for longer outages.  In a very brief explanation,  it essentially
> bypasses any charge controlling to the batteries, and puts full Array power
> into the batteries until a relay (or phase shifting) disconnects the
> array.  No three stage charging, no taper charging, no float, no temp
> compensation.  Its like trying to fill a 5 gal bucket with a fire house, or
> drive a car with a throttle that's either off or at full throttle, no in
> between.  The other issue is that if the batteries get low and the inverter
> shuts off, the system will not recharge, and after a couple of weeks the
> batteries will be sulfated beyond recovery.
>
> My guess is that manus that advocated this approach got into trouble from
> end users that fried expensive battery banks during longer outages.  I
> would consider it the equivalent of cheap backup generators: a great backup
> system for folks that don't need it.   There are probably thousands of
> those out there with happy customers and installers, because its never
> actually been used for more than a few hours, and the batteries are
> properly charged from the grid 99.8% of the time.
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 9/12/18 6:11 PM, Ken Schaal wrote:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyhkIfS5Z-Q
>
>
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-- 
*Will White*
Curriculum Developer


e: w...@solarenergy.org
w: www.solarenergy.org
p: 802-272-3092

PV Installation Professional
# 093006-34

*FACT:  If we covered 0.33% of the earth with solar panels, we could power
the world with renewable energy.*

Do you envision a world powered by renewable energy? Be the change
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated.

[Jerry Shafer]

Ken
AC Coupling is always do-able, might not be the best solution but it can
work well if set up right, you can use DC contactor to shut down strings or
AC to kill the inverter, DC will respond faster. Use an Outback Radian(s)
and Blue Ion Batteries for a sweet easy solution. I've used outback for
many years with great successall the way back to the SMA SB1800
Jerry

On Wed, Sep 12, 2018, 5:27 PM Ken Schaal  wrote:

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyhkIfS5Z-Q
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On Sep 12, 2018 5:27 PM, "Ken Schaal"  wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyhkIfS5Z-Q
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated.

[Dan Fink]

Diversion load controller and diversion loads will work every time, no
matter what the equipment.

Dan Fink
Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
Executive Director, Buckville Energy
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
NABCEP PV Associate

970.672.4342




On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 7:31 PM Wayne Irwin 
wrote:

> Looks like standard AC coupling.
>
> We typically just redo the whole system rather than retro fit. Depending
> on the system size, it's usually not that much more work (racking is
> already up) and the end result is always a regulated charge to the
> batteries.
>
>
> It would be great if someone would come up with a regulated AC coupled
> charge versus an all or nothing approach via phase shifting or relay
> controlled.
>
>
> Wayne Irwin
> President
> License #CVC56695
> State Licensed Solar Contractor
> Pure Energy Solar International Inc.
> wa...@pureenergysolar.com
> http://PureEnergySolar.com
> http://SolarChargingStation.net
> 352 377-6527 Office
> 352 336-3299 Fax
>
>
> The Sun Is Always Shining!
>
> The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are
> not the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use
> or distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail
> and delete this message from your computer system. Thank you.
>
>
>
> --
> *From:* RE-wrenches  on behalf
> of Ken Schaal 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 12, 2018 8:11 PM
> *To:* RE-wrenches; Ken Schaal
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery
> backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyhkIfS5Z-Q
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated.

[Wayne Irwin]

Looks like standard AC coupling.

We typically just redo the whole system rather than retro fit. Depending on the 
system size, it's usually not that much more work (racking is already up) and 
the end result is always a regulated charge to the batteries.


It would be great if someone would come up with a regulated AC coupled charge 
versus an all or nothing approach via phase shifting or relay controlled.


Wayne Irwin
President
License #CVC56695
State Licensed Solar Contractor
Pure Energy Solar International Inc.
wa...@pureenergysolar.com
http://PureEnergySolar.com
http://SolarChargingStation.net
352 377-6527 Office
352 336-3299 Fax


The Sun Is Always Shining!

The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not 
the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or 
distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and 
delete this message from your computer system. Thank you.




From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of Ken 
Schaal 
Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 8:11 PM
To: RE-wrenches; Ken Schaal
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery backup 
to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyhkIfS5Z-Q
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated.

[Peter Giroux]

Ken

  We have had terrific success with AC Coupling. Yes there are some differences 
from Dc Coupled systems but if built properly, customer is willing to learn how 
to use it and maintain it and you put the correct relays in to shut off the 
string inverters if battery voltage gets to high, great.

  If you have a customer that refuses to exercise the system, not check the 
batteries if they are fla's and overloads it when the power goes down then not 
so cool. We have customers that power shave with it, have had backup power for 
days until the power came back on as they monitored the loads and were 
judicious about use. Ray is right in the sense the customer needs to learn how 
to use the system or they can royally screw it up ( yes we have had two do 
this, one learned the other not ).

  The Radians have been great work horses for this application, sadly as Ray 
mentioned Outback has moved away from it as a primary solution. 

peter giroux
ASAE
Atlanta
  - Original Message - 
  From: Ken Schaal 
  To: RE-wrenches ; Ken Schaal 
  Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 8:11 PM
  Subject: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery backup 
to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated.


  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyhkIfS5Z-Q


--


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated.

[Ray]

I didn't watch the whole thing, but it looked like a standard AC couple 
set up with an Outback Radian.  My understanding is that Outback no 
longer supports AC Coupling, BTW.  I would never use that for an off 
grid system or  for longer outages.  In a very brief explanation,  it 
essentially bypasses any charge controlling to the batteries, and puts 
full Array power into the batteries until a relay (or phase shifting) 
disconnects the array.  No three stage charging, no taper charging, no 
float, no temp compensation.  Its like trying to fill a 5 gal bucket 
with a fire house, or drive a car with a throttle that's either off or 
at full throttle, no in between.  The other issue is that if the 
batteries get low and the inverter shuts off, the system will not 
recharge, and after a couple of weeks the batteries will be sulfated 
beyond recovery.


My guess is that manus that advocated this approach got into trouble 
from end users that fried expensive battery banks during longer 
outages.  I would consider it the equivalent of cheap backup generators: 
a great backup system for folks that don't need it.   There are probably 
thousands of those out there with happy customers and installers, 
because its never actually been used for more than a few hours, and the 
batteries are properly charged from the grid 99.8% of the time.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 9/12/18 6:11 PM, Ken Schaal wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyhkIfS5Z-Q


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[RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated.

[Ken Schaal]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyhkIfS5Z-Q
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