Re: [RE-wrenches] CA Fire code

[SunHarvest]

We met with the Nevada County AHJ and the local CalFire Chief yesterday to 
discuss details about the new Title 24 regs. So far, their official policy on 
PV mod fire rating is this:

"Modules shall be tested, listed, and identified with the fire classification 
based on the specific type of building construction. (See CBC Table 1505.1 for 
specific classification requirements)."

Basically, we can install Class C rated modules on buildings of Type 2B, 3B, 
and 5B construction. Anything else requires a Class A or B module. That's the 
latest word from Nevada County.

Special thanks to Lars et al. at Cal Solar for keeping the rest of us up here 
in the Gold Country in socks and groceries. Flowers are on their way.

Eric Stikes
SunHarvest
001.530.798.3738 (Cell)

  - Original Message - 
  From: Bill Brooks 
  To: findso...@herzfeld.org ; 'RE-wrenches' 
  Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2014 5:17 PM
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] CA Fire code


  Martin,

   

  Regarding your reference to installations west of I-280 requiring Class A, I 
did not find that in Palo Alto's materials. The City of Woodside fire 
department was very involved in the CalFire Guidelines and I would not be 
surprised if they implemented such a requirement. If you can find a specific 
document with the wording, I would love to see it. I will likely be working 
with SEIA to draft some educational materials on the new standards and how to 
apply them.

   

  Bill.

   

  From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Martin Herzfeld
  Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2014 4:13 PM
  To: RE-wrenches
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] CA Fire code

   


  1.  In addition to the thoughts shared, for instance, for one AHJ:

  (A) I think "Photovoltaic Installations west of Interstate 280 require PV 
modules to have a minimum Class A fire rating" - requirements and 'additional 
information' since 2009 were revised and updated here ?

  
http://www.cityofpaloalto.org/gov/depts/utl/residents/resources/pcm/pv_permitting_and_interconnection.asp

  (B) Also ground-mount options - not only just rooftops - CSFM Guidelines 
Section 5.0, ...

  http://www.cityofpaloalto.org/civicax/filebank/documents/34052
  
http://osfm.fire.ca.gov/informationbulletin/pdf/2012/IB_12-004_FireApparatusAccessRoadsPhotovoltaicFacilities.pdf
  
http://osfm.fire.ca.gov/training/pdf/Photovoltaics/Fire%20Ops%20PV%20lo%20resl.pdf

  You may first check with the specific jurisdiction for more information ... 

  2.  In addition, you may want to join or attend the IAEI meetings in 
California, there's good information on this and other topics at the monthly 
meetings and CEUs.

  http://www.iaei.org

  3.  By the way, I attended at the very last stakeholder meeting in SF and the 
publications here for new changes and updates 

  
http://www.solarabcs.org/about/publications/reports/flammability-testing/index.html

  4. Wildland Hazard/Building Codes

  http://www.fire.ca.gov/fire_prevention/fire_prevention_wildland_zones.php

  We'll check it out on an install, if in the area ...

  Martin Herzfeld
  California Contractor License  #833782 
  UL Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30
  Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+)
  OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer

  Wrenches,
  If you are in a wild land fire zone in CA, it looks like we are all in for a 
rude awakening. Our local AHJ is requiring not only set backs for ventilation 
of roofs, but also THAT ALL PANELS ON THE ROOF CARY A CLASS A FIRE RATING! It 
doesn't take allot of research to realize that this pretty much eliminates 
roof-top solar as an option, as if you can eve find a class A panel, they are 
cost prohibitive. I'm wondering a couple things. One, has anyone had luck using 
the local political process to postpone the enforcement of the class A 
requirement? and two, has anyone found readily available Class A modules?
This issue seems to have caught the industry with it's pants down, as 
industry lobby doesn't even seem to be aware that the the local AHJ's would 
have this interpretation. Is this the end of roof top solar in 60% of 
California? What are y'all doing to deal with this issue?

  --

  Lars Ortegren

  President

  California Solar Electric Company

  .PO Box 480

  149 E.Main St

  Grass Valley, CA 95945

  Phone : (530)274-3671 Fax: (530)274-7518

   California C-10 Electical Contractor #779624

  Certified NABCEP Continuing Education Provider

  Certified NAPCEP Technical Sales and Installation Profesional 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] CA Fire code

[Solar]

Just checking in on this and maybe it was mentioned but Silicon Energy produced 
a Class A module, but they only have 190-195W output and as mentioned are cost 
prohibitive to most homeowners. 

Jesse 
RE-Power 
dahlso...@gmail.com

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 9, 2014, at 6:13 PM, Martin Herzfeld  wrote:
> 
> 
> 1.  In addition to the thoughts shared, for instance, for one AHJ:
> 
> (A) I think "Photovoltaic Installations west of Interstate 280 require PV 
> modules to have a minimum Class A fire rating" - requirements and 'additional 
> information' since 2009 were revised and updated here ...?
> 
> http://www.cityofpaloalto.org/gov/depts/utl/residents/resources/pcm/pv_permitting_and_interconnection.asp
> 
> (B) Also ground-mount options - not only just rooftops - CSFM Guidelines 
> Section 5.0, ...
> 
> http://www.cityofpaloalto.org/civicax/filebank/documents/34052
> http://osfm.fire.ca.gov/informationbulletin/pdf/2012/IB_12-004_FireApparatusAccessRoadsPhotovoltaicFacilities.pdf
> http://osfm.fire.ca.gov/training/pdf/Photovoltaics/Fire%20Ops%20PV%20lo%20resl.pdf
> 
> You may first check with the specific jurisdiction for more information ... 
>   
> 2.  In addition, you may want to join or attend the IAEI meetings in 
> California, there's good information on this and other topics at the monthly 
> meetings and CEUs.
> 
> http://www.iaei.org
> 
> 3.  By the way, I attended at the very last stakeholder meeting in SF and the 
> publications here for new changes and updates ...
> 
> http://www.solarabcs.org/about/publications/reports/flammability-testing/index.html
> 
> 4. Wildland Hazard/Building Codes
> 
> http://www.fire.ca.gov/fire_prevention/fire_prevention_wildland_zones.php
> 
> We'll check it out on an install, if in the area ...
> 
> Martin Herzfeld
> California Contractor License  #833782 
> UL Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30
> Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+)
> OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer
> 
> Wrenches,
> If you are in a wild land fire zone in CA, it looks like we are all in for a 
> rude awakening. Our local AHJ is requiring not only set backs for ventilation 
> of roofs, but also THAT ALL PANELS ON THE ROOF CARY A CLASS A FIRE RATING! It 
> doesn't take allot of research to realize that this pretty much eliminates 
> roof-top solar as an option, as if you can eve find a class A panel, they are 
> cost prohibitive. I'm wondering a couple things. One, has anyone had luck 
> using the local political process to postpone the enforcement of the class A 
> requirement? and two, has anyone found readily available Class A modules?
>   This issue seems to have caught the industry with it's pants down, as 
> industry lobby doesn't even seem to be aware that the the local AHJ's would 
> have this interpretation. Is this the end of roof top solar in 60% of 
> California? What are y'all doing to deal with this issue?
> 
> --
> 
> Lars Ortegren
> 
> President
> 
> California Solar Electric Company
> 
> .PO Box 480
> 
> 149 E.Main St
> 
> Grass Valley, CA 95945
> 
> Phone : (530)274-3671 Fax: (530)274-7518
> 
>  California C-10 Electical Contractor #779624
> 
> Certified NABCEP Continuing Education Provider
> 
> Certified NAPCEP Technical Sales and Installation Profesional 
> 
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] CA Fire code

[Bill Brooks]

Martin,

 

Regarding your reference to installations west of I-280 requiring Class A, I
did not find that in Palo Alto's materials. The City of Woodside fire
department was very involved in the CalFire Guidelines and I would not be
surprised if they implemented such a requirement. If you can find a specific
document with the wording, I would love to see it. I will likely be working
with SEIA to draft some educational materials on the new standards and how
to apply them.

 

Bill.

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Martin
Herzfeld
Sent: Thursday, January 09, 2014 4:13 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] CA Fire code

 


1.  In addition to the thoughts shared, for instance, for one AHJ:

(A) I think "Photovoltaic Installations west of Interstate 280 require PV
modules to have a minimum Class A fire rating" - requirements and
'additional information' since 2009 were revised and updated here ...?

http://www.cityofpaloalto.org/gov/depts/utl/residents/resources/pcm/pv_permi
tting_and_interconnection.asp

(B) Also ground-mount options - not only just rooftops - CSFM Guidelines
Section 5.0, ...

http://www.cityofpaloalto.org/civicax/filebank/documents/34052
http://osfm.fire.ca.gov/informationbulletin/pdf/2012/IB_12-004_FireApparatus
AccessRoadsPhotovoltaicFacilities.pdf
http://osfm.fire.ca.gov/training/pdf/Photovoltaics/Fire%20Ops%20PV%20lo%20re
sl.pdf

You may first check with the specific jurisdiction for more information ... 
  
2.  In addition, you may want to join or attend the IAEI meetings in
California, there's good information on this and other topics at the monthly
meetings and CEUs.

http://www.iaei.org

3.  By the way, I attended at the very last stakeholder meeting in SF and
the publications here for new changes and updates ...

http://www.solarabcs.org/about/publications/reports/flammability-testing/ind
ex.html

4. Wildland Hazard/Building Codes

http://www.fire.ca.gov/fire_prevention/fire_prevention_wildland_zones.php

We'll check it out on an install, if in the area ...

Martin Herzfeld
California Contractor License  #833782 
UL Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30
Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+)
OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer

Wrenches,
If you are in a wild land fire zone in CA, it looks like we are all in for a
rude awakening. Our local AHJ is requiring not only set backs for
ventilation of roofs, but also THAT ALL PANELS ON THE ROOF CARY A CLASS A
FIRE RATING! It doesn't take allot of research to realize that this pretty
much eliminates roof-top solar as an option, as if you can eve find a class
A panel, they are cost prohibitive. I'm wondering a couple things. One, has
anyone had luck using the local political process to postpone the
enforcement of the class A requirement? and two, has anyone found readily
available Class A modules?
  This issue seems to have caught the industry with it's pants down, as
industry lobby doesn't even seem to be aware that the the local AHJ's would
have this interpretation. Is this the end of roof top solar in 60% of
California? What are y'all doing to deal with this issue?

--

Lars Ortegren

President

California Solar Electric Company

.PO Box 480

149 E.Main St

Grass Valley, CA 95945

Phone : (530)274-3671 Fax: (530)274-7518

 California C-10 Electical Contractor #779624

Certified NABCEP Continuing Education Provider

Certified NAPCEP Technical Sales and Installation Profesional 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] CA Fire code

[Martin Herzfeld]

1.  In addition to the thoughts shared, for instance, for one AHJ:

(A) I think "Photovoltaic Installations west of Interstate 280 require PV
modules to have a minimum Class A fire rating" - requirements and
'additional information' since 2009 were revised and updated here ...?

http://www.cityofpaloalto.org/gov/depts/utl/residents/resources/pcm/pv_permitting_and_interconnection.asp

(B) Also ground-mount options - not only just rooftops - CSFM Guidelines
Section 5.0, ...

http://www.cityofpaloalto.org/civicax/filebank/documents/34052
http://osfm.fire.ca.gov/informationbulletin/pdf/2012/IB_12-004_FireApparatusAccessRoadsPhotovoltaicFacilities.pdf
http://osfm.fire.ca.gov/training/pdf/Photovoltaics/Fire%20Ops%20PV%20lo%20resl.pdf

You may first check with the specific jurisdiction for more information ...

2.  In addition, you may want to join or attend the IAEI meetings in
California, there's good information on this and other topics at the
monthly meetings and CEUs.

http://www.iaei.org

3.  By the way, I attended at the very last stakeholder meeting in SF and
the publications here for new changes and updates ...

http://www.solarabcs.org/about/publications/reports/flammability-testing/index.html

4. Wildland Hazard/Building Codes

http://www.fire.ca.gov/fire_prevention/fire_prevention_wildland_zones.php

We'll check it out on an install, if in the area ...

Martin Herzfeld
California Contractor License  #833782
UL Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30
Certified Technical Classroom Trainer (CTT+)
OSHA-Authorized Construction Trainer

Wrenches,
If you are in a wild land fire zone in CA, it looks like we are all in for
a rude awakening. Our local AHJ is requiring not only set backs for
ventilation of roofs, but also THAT ALL PANELS ON THE ROOF CARY A CLASS A
FIRE RATING! It doesn't take allot of research to realize that this pretty
much eliminates roof-top solar as an option, as if you can eve find a class
A panel, they are cost prohibitive. I'm wondering a couple things. One, has
anyone had luck using the local political process to postpone the
enforcement of the class A requirement? and two, has anyone found readily
available Class A modules?
  This issue seems to have caught the industry with it's pants down, as
industry lobby doesn't even seem to be aware that the the local AHJ's would
have this interpretation. Is this the end of roof top solar in 60% of
California? What are y'all doing to deal with this issue?

--

Lars Ortegren

President

California Solar Electric Company

.PO Box 480

149 E.Main St

Grass Valley, CA 95945

Phone : (530)274-3671 Fax: (530)274-7518

 California C-10 Electical Contractor #779624

Certified NABCEP Continuing Education Provider

Certified NAPCEP Technical Sales and Installation Profesional

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Re: [RE-wrenches] CA Fire code

[Chris Anderson]

Bill,
Do you know when this new UL standard will be adopted and by when we should
be pushing our racking manufacturer partners to have this listing completed?


On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 2:00 AM, Bill Brooks  wrote:

> All,
>
>
>
> Since Mr. Brearley called me out, I guess I need to jump in. UL 1703 has
> been substantially changed as to how modules are fire rated. Basically,
> modules will no longer receive a direct fire rating unless they are
> installed in a fire-rated mounting system. I current module with a Class C
> or Class A rating will no longer have that rating. The mounting system will
> carry the fire rating. Modules will have specific “types” based on their
> construction. This way a rack manufacturer can get a fire rating on modules
> of a particular module construction type and not have to rerate their rack
> with every module that has that same construction.
>
>
>
> All these changes in the UL1703 standard are going to require education so
> that fire officials and building code enforcement officials understand how
> to enforce the new building code rules in light of the new version of the
> UL standard.
>
>
>
> Bill.
>
>
>
> *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:
> re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *David Brearley
> *Sent:* Monday, January 06, 2014 11:34 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] CA Fire code
>
>
>
> Lars,
>
>
>
> Back in October, UL was in the process of finalizing a new fire test
> method for for roof-mounted PV systems. This new test method will bridge
> the gap between the fire tests for roofing coverings (UL 790) and those
> found in UL 1703, the standard for flat-plate PV modules. Long story short,
> Class C PV modules installed over a Class A roofing system will result in a
> Class A fire-rated roof-mounted PV system.
>
>
>
> At least that's how I understood the presentation delivered by Christopher
> Flueckinger from UL during the "Fire Safety" session at SPI in Chicago. I'm
> sure Bill Brooks will chime in shortly and provide more clarity.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
>
>
>
> David Brearley
>
> Senior Technical Editor, *SolarPro* magazine
>
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
>
> david.brear...@solarprofessional.com
>
> Direct: 541.261.6545
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
><http://www.avast.com/>
>
> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! 
> Antivirus<http://www.avast.com/>protection is active.
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-- 

Regards,

Chris Anderson
Chief Technology Officer
Borrego Solar Systems
1115 Westford Street, 2nd floor
Lowell, MA  01851
M: 603-732-2411
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Re: [RE-wrenches] CA Fire code

[Bill Brooks]

All,

 

Since Mr. Brearley called me out, I guess I need to jump in. UL 1703 has
been substantially changed as to how modules are fire rated. Basically,
modules will no longer receive a direct fire rating unless they are
installed in a fire-rated mounting system. I current module with a Class C
or Class A rating will no longer have that rating. The mounting system will
carry the fire rating. Modules will have specific "types" based on their
construction. This way a rack manufacturer can get a fire rating on modules
of a particular module construction type and not have to rerate their rack
with every module that has that same construction.

 

All these changes in the UL1703 standard are going to require education so
that fire officials and building code enforcement officials understand how
to enforce the new building code rules in light of the new version of the UL
standard.

 

Bill.

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of David
Brearley
Sent: Monday, January 06, 2014 11:34 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] CA Fire code

 

Lars,

 

Back in October, UL was in the process of finalizing a new fire test method
for for roof-mounted PV systems. This new test method will bridge the gap
between the fire tests for roofing coverings (UL 790) and those found in UL
1703, the standard for flat-plate PV modules. Long story short, Class C PV
modules installed over a Class A roofing system will result in a Class A
fire-rated roof-mounted PV system.

 

At least that's how I understood the presentation delivered by Christopher
Flueckinger from UL during the "Fire Safety" session at SPI in Chicago. I'm
sure Bill Brooks will chime in shortly and provide more clarity.

 

Best regards,

 

David Brearley

Senior Technical Editor, SolarPro magazine

NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional

david.brear...@solarprofessional.com
<mailto:david.brear...@solarprofessional.com> 

Direct: 541.261.6545

 

 





 



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Re: [RE-wrenches] CA Fire code

[David Brearley]

With regards to the second part of your question, Trina has a glass-on-glass PV 
module:

http://www.trinasolar.com/us/product/PDG5.html

I suspect that the glass-on-glass module from SolarWorld is Class A fire rated 
as well.


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Re: [RE-wrenches] CA Fire code

[David Brearley]

Lars,

Back in October, UL was in the process of finalizing a new fire test method for 
for roof-mounted PV systems. This new test method will bridge the gap between 
the fire tests for roofing coverings (UL 790) and those found in UL 1703, the 
standard for flat-plate PV modules. Long story short, Class C PV modules 
installed over a Class A roofing system will result in a Class A fire-rated 
roof-mounted PV system.

At least that's how I understood the presentation delivered by Christopher 
Flueckinger from UL during the "Fire Safety" session at SPI in Chicago. I'm 
sure Bill Brooks will chime in shortly and provide more clarity.

Best regards,

David Brearley
Senior Technical Editor, SolarPro magazine
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
david.brear...@solarprofessional.com
Direct: 541.261.6545






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Re: [RE-wrenches] CA Fire code

[Dan Fink]

Wow Lars.
setbacks and signage are ICC 2012, and auto rooftop discos NEC2014, where
did this Class A bus you got thrown under come from? It's not ICC or NEC
from what I can read.
Is there an SEIA person on this list?
Pretty much every install I do here in Colorado is wildland/urban
interface. We dont do many roof mounts as rural folks generally have lots
of land for a ground mount, but wow. As a firefighter, who also makes a
living teaching solar power firefighter safety classes, requiring class A
doesn't make sense and provides no safety benefits to firefighters or
homeowners. Analyzing incident reports and going on service jobs, I see the
combination of physical movement of conductors against rough services (heat
expansion and contraction, wind etc) and debris buildup (pine needles,
leaves) under rooftop PV mounts as the big issue, with animal damage coming
in 2nd.
Most homes burn down 0.5-3 days AFTER the flame front has moved through,
thanks to windblown firebrands (embers) lodged in wooden nooks and crannys
of the home. A plain plywood exterior wall can  withstand a 100 foot high
flame front 100 feet away without igniting. This is all proven, tested and
videotaped. If the roof starts to burn from a firebrand..the fire
rating of the PV modules themselves is meaningless.

Agh. I'm thankful for this list, please keep it in the loop here or
email me personally. I am making major changes to my firefighter safety /
outreach class this spring and need all the info I can get.

I hope BIll Brooks saw your posting and responds.

Dan Fink,
Executive Director;
Otherpower
Buckville Energy Consulting
Buckville Publications LLC
NABCEP / IREC accredited Continuing Education Providers
970.672.4342




On Mon, Jan 6, 2014 at 9:55 AM, Lars Ortegren  wrote:

> Wrenches,
> If you are in a wild land fire zone in CA, it looks like we are all in for
> a rude awakening. Our local AHJ is requiring not only set backs for
> ventilation of roofs, but also THAT ALL PANELS ON THE ROOF CARY A CLASS A
> FIRE RATING! It doesn't take allot of research to realize that this pretty
> much eliminates roof-top solar as an option, as if you can eve find a class
> A panel, they are cost prohibitive. I'm wondering a couple things. One, has
> anyone had luck using the local political process to postpone the
> enforcement of the class A requirement? and two, has anyone found readily
> available Class A modules?
>   This issue seems to have caught the industry with it's pants down, as
> industry lobby doesn't even seem to be aware that the the local AHJ's would
> have this interpretation. Is this the end of roof top solar in 60% of
> California? What are y'all doing to deal with this issue?
>
> --
>
> *Lars Ortegren*
>
> *President*
>
> California Solar Electric Company 
>
> .PO Box 480
>
> 149 E.Main St
>
> Grass Valley, CA 95945
>
> Phone : (530)274-3671 Fax: (530)274-7518
>
>  *California C-10 Electical Contractor #779624*
>
> *Certified NABCEP Continuing Education Provider*
>
> *Certified NAPCEP Technical Sales and Installation Profesional *
>
> ___
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[RE-wrenches] CA Fire code

[Lars Ortegren]

Wrenches,
If you are in a wild land fire zone in CA, it looks like we are all in for
a rude awakening. Our local AHJ is requiring not only set backs for
ventilation of roofs, but also THAT ALL PANELS ON THE ROOF CARY A CLASS A
FIRE RATING! It doesn't take allot of research to realize that this pretty
much eliminates roof-top solar as an option, as if you can eve find a class
A panel, they are cost prohibitive. I'm wondering a couple things. One, has
anyone had luck using the local political process to postpone the
enforcement of the class A requirement? and two, has anyone found readily
available Class A modules?
  This issue seems to have caught the industry with it's pants down, as
industry lobby doesn't even seem to be aware that the the local AHJ's would
have this interpretation. Is this the end of roof top solar in 60% of
California? What are y'all doing to deal with this issue?

-- 

*Lars Ortegren*

*President*

California Solar Electric Company 

.PO Box 480

149 E.Main St

Grass Valley, CA 95945

Phone : (530)274-3671 Fax: (530)274-7518

 *California C-10 Electical Contractor #779624*

*Certified NABCEP Continuing Education Provider*

*Certified NAPCEP Technical Sales and Installation Profesional *
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