Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging AGM Batteries

2009-09-21 Thread Marv Dargatz 




SMA absolutely operates solely on Batt SOC.  In
fact, the Germans pride themselves on their "superior" SOC management,
and have convinced some battery manufacturers to extend the battery
warranty based on this "superior" SOC management.


See Ya!

Marv
Enphase Energy
707 763-4784 x7016


Darryl Thayer wrote:

  I agree absolutly. But Outback and Apollo are the only systems that monitor and control on SOC.  Apollo can operate a relay, and Outback can change settings using the FMDC.  I think both systems with a few tweeks are the better way to handel AGM.
DARRYL 

--- On Sat, 9/19/09, Hugh  wrote:

  
  
From: Hugh 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging AGM Batteries
To: "RE-wrenches" 
Date: Saturday, September 19, 2009, 4:21 AM
It seems to me that you really need
to have a controller that monitors the state of charge in
order to do a good job of recharging sealed batteries. 
If they are low then you can push the voltage up but if they
are in an intermediate indeterminate state as with most
small renewable energy systems then you don't know what to
do. Playing safe can mean that the battery does not get a
proper charge (I am told).



  The chargers typically found in our industry deliver
  

the same "bulk" charge amperage from initiation of the
recharge all the way to when the absorption voltage is
reached. So...if you set that for a high value the same high
rate would be present not only when the battery is highly
depleted but also when the battery is approaching 80% state
of charge. That seems scary to me.


-- Hugh Piggott

Scoraig Wind Electric
Scotland
http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging AGM Batteries

2009-09-19 Thread Bruce Geddes 
The serious commercial chargers have a deltaI/deltat (current vs 
temperature) alogorithm to detect when electrolysis of the electrolyte 
begins to occur.  Failing that, a Pout vs Pin alogorithm is next best.  Both 
these make for an expensive controller which is hard to justify in domestic 
systems.  The best we can usually work with is a voltage based controller 
and hopefully a charge rate that won't boil the cells. 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging AGM Batteries

2009-09-19 Thread Darryl Thayer 
I agree absolutly. But Outback and Apollo are the only systems that monitor and 
control on SOC.  Apollo can operate a relay, and Outback can change settings 
using the FMDC.  I think both systems with a few tweeks are the better way to 
handel AGM.
DARRYL 

--- On Sat, 9/19/09, Hugh  wrote:

> From: Hugh 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging AGM Batteries
> To: "RE-wrenches" 
> Date: Saturday, September 19, 2009, 4:21 AM
> It seems to me that you really need
> to have a controller that monitors the state of charge in
> order to do a good job of recharging sealed batteries. 
> If they are low then you can push the voltage up but if they
> are in an intermediate indeterminate state as with most
> small renewable energy systems then you don't know what to
> do. Playing safe can mean that the battery does not get a
> proper charge (I am told).
> 
> > The chargers typically found in our industry deliver
> the same "bulk" charge amperage from initiation of the
> recharge all the way to when the absorption voltage is
> reached. So...if you set that for a high value the same high
> rate would be present not only when the battery is highly
> depleted but also when the battery is approaching 80% state
> of charge. That seems scary to me.
> 
> 
> -- Hugh Piggott
> 
> Scoraig Wind Electric
> Scotland
> http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk
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> 


  
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging AGM Batteries

2009-09-19 Thread Hugh 
It seems to me that you really need to have a controller that 
monitors the state of charge in order to do a good job of recharging 
sealed batteries.  If they are low then you can push the voltage up 
but if they are in an intermediate indeterminate state as with most 
small renewable energy systems then you don't know what to do. 
Playing safe can mean that the battery does not get a proper charge 
(I am told).


The chargers typically found in our industry deliver the same "bulk" 
charge amperage from initiation of the recharge all the way to when 
the absorption voltage is reached. So...if you set that for a high 
value the same high rate would be present not only when the battery 
is highly depleted but also when the battery is approaching 80% 
state of charge. That seems scary to me.



--
Hugh Piggott

Scoraig Wind Electric
Scotland
http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging AGM Batteries

2009-09-15 Thread Mick Abraham 
I suggest that high rate recharge could be safely done but only with a
charge algorithm more sophisticated than what is commonly found in renewable
energy gear.

The chargers typically found in our industry deliver the same "bulk" charge
amperage from initiation of the recharge all the way to when the absorption
voltage is reached. So...if you set that for a high value the same high rate
would be present not only when the battery is highly depleted but also when
the battery is approaching 80% state of charge. That seems scary to me.

The electric vehicle industry may offer some good choices in chargers
specifically for "rapid recharge". These would deliver highest amps at first
but would diminish the amperage as the battery voltage ramps up--without
waiting for the absorption voltage to be reached before the amperage taper
begins.

You might like to ask the technicians at your battery manufacturer to make
sure they're OK with your intended recharge method. Regards to all,

Mick Abraham, Proprietor
www.abrahamsolar.com

Voice: 970-731-4675


On Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 9:11 AM, Walt Ratterman <
wratter...@sunenergypower.com> wrote:

>  Peter,
>
>
>
> The DEKA charging manual that I have been working from for their sealed
> batteries (AGM and Gel) quote 30% of C20.
>
>
>
> And….DEKA’s literature also has a maximum charging voltage of 2.35 VPC.
>
>
>
> Not sure about the other brands.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Walt
>
>
>
> *From:* re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:
> re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On Behalf Of *Peter Parrish
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 15, 2009 7:33 AM
> *To:* 'RE-wrenches'
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Charging AGM Batteries
>
>
>
> I have been told that AGM batteries can withstand pretty aggressive
> charging rates, with a bulk rate being ½ of C/20. For example a MK 8A8D,
> with a C/20 of 245 A-h, would start with 122 A. If this is okay, can I still
> use the standard 14.6 V value for switching from Bulk to Absorb? What about
> ambient temperature effects at high charge rates?
>
>
>
> We have need from time to time to charge AGMs as quickly as we can safely
> do so, so any information on high charge rates would be appreciated.
>
>
>
> - Peter
>
>
>
>
>  Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
> California Solar Engineering, Inc.
> 820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
> CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP TM Cert. 031806-26
> peter.parr...@calsolareng.com
> Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging AGM Batteries

2009-09-15 Thread Walt Ratterman 
Peter,

 

The DEKA charging manual that I have been working from for their sealed
batteries (AGM and Gel) quote 30% of C20.

 

And….DEKA’s literature also has a maximum charging voltage of 2.35 VPC.

 

Not sure about the other brands.

 

Thanks,

 

Walt

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter
Parrish
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 7:33 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging AGM Batteries

 

I have been told that AGM batteries can withstand pretty aggressive charging
rates, with a bulk rate being ½ of C/20. For example a MK 8A8D, with a C/20
of 245 A-h, would start with 122 A. If this is okay, can I still use the
standard 14.6 V value for switching from Bulk to Absorb? What about ambient
temperature effects at high charge rates?

 

We have need from time to time to charge AGMs as quickly as we can safely do
so, so any information on high charge rates would be appreciated.

 

- Peter

 




Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP TM Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885


  

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging AGM Batteries

2009-09-15 Thread Tump 
Surrette battery has just come out w/ their newest product.AGM
batteries. They also have quite a paper on charging these units. Perhaps
someone at Surrette or their web site has the "Rolls AGM Battery Charging
Instructions" if not contact me off list.TUMP
 
 
 <mailto:t...@swnl.net> t...@swnl.net <http://www.swnl.net/>
www.SWNL.net
   Solarwinds Northernlights   
   Serving Mid Coast Maine & Northern California
 Me.# 207-832-7574  Cl.#  610-517-8401
 
  Blair "TUMP" May
    MAINE'S CHARTER 
NABCEP"Certified PV Installer" 
   
    MAINE'S CHARTER 
   Trace Xantrex "Certified" Dealer / Installer"
   
  

-Original Message-
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bell, Steve
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 10:42 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging AGM Batteries



Hi Peter,

 

At least some AGM’s (like the Concorde) can handle very aggressive charging
rates, provided you have good temperature compensation to reduce the
possibility of a thermal runaway.

 

Also the 14.6 VDC is a little higher than recommended, at least for the
Concorde brand. 14.4 VDC (2.40 V per cell) is the recommended max.  BTW,
Concorde has a great Technical manual about their AGM’s; much of which
applies to most quality AGM’s. You can download it from their web site.
www.concordebattery.com <http://www.concordebattery.com/> 

 

Steve

  

Steve Bell

Technical Support Specialist 

 

SunWize Technologies, Inc.

#1 Sun Street

Stelle, IL  60919 USA

(815) 256- ext. 23

sb...@sunwize.com

www.sunwize.com <http://www.sunwize.com/> 


  _  


From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter
Parrish
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 9:33 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging AGM Batteries

 

I have been told that AGM batteries can withstand pretty aggressive charging
rates, with a bulk rate being ½ of C/20. For example a MK 8A8D, with a C/20
of 245 A-h, would start with 122 A. If this is okay, can I still use the
standard 14.6 V value for switching from Bulk to Absorb? What about ambient
temperature effects at high charge rates?

 

We have need from time to time to charge AGMs as quickly as we can safely do
so, so any information on high charge rates would be appreciated.

 

- Peter

 




Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP TM Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885


  

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging AGM Batteries

2009-09-15 Thread jay peltz 

HI Peter,

I don't know of any sealed that go above the 14.4v/12v setpoints.
And most I've seen a 14.2 ish.
That said I have seen eq recommendations for industrial sealed, but  
with very controlled conditions.


above 14.4 it will start to gas just like a wet battery.

jay

peltz power
On Sep 15, 2009, at 7:32 AM, Peter Parrish wrote:

I have been told that AGM batteries can withstand pretty aggressive  
charging rates, with a bulk rate being ½ of C/20. For example a MK  
8A8D, with a C/20 of 245 A-h, would start with 122 A. If this is  
okay, can I still use the standard 14.6 V value for switching from  
Bulk to Absorb? What about ambient temperature effects at high  
charge rates?


We have need from time to time to charge AGMs as quickly as we can  
safely do so, so any information on high charge rates would be  
appreciated.


- Peter


Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP TM Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging AGM Batteries

2009-09-15 Thread Bell, Steve 
Hi Peter,

 

At least some AGM's (like the Concorde) can handle very aggressive charging 
rates, provided you have good temperature compensation to reduce the 
possibility of a thermal runaway.

 

Also the 14.6 VDC is a little higher than recommended, at least for the 
Concorde brand. 14.4 VDC (2.40 V per cell) is the recommended max.  BTW, 
Concorde has a great Technical manual about their AGM's; much of which applies 
to most quality AGM's. You can download it from their web site. 
www.concordebattery.com <http://www.concordebattery.com/> 

 

Steve

  

Steve Bell

Technical Support Specialist 

 

SunWize Technologies, Inc.

#1 Sun Street

Stelle, IL  60919 USA

(815) 256- ext. 23

sb...@sunwize.com

www.sunwize.com <http://www.sunwize.com/> 



From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Peter Parrish
Sent: Tuesday, September 15, 2009 9:33 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Charging AGM Batteries

 

I have been told that AGM batteries can withstand pretty aggressive charging 
rates, with a bulk rate being ½ of C/20. For example a MK 8A8D, with a C/20 of 
245 A-h, would start with 122 A. If this is okay, can I still use the standard 
14.6 V value for switching from Bulk to Absorb? What about ambient temperature 
effects at high charge rates?

 

We have need from time to time to charge AGMs as quickly as we can safely do 
so, so any information on high charge rates would be appreciated.

 

- Peter

 




Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP TM Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885  
 

  

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[RE-wrenches] Charging AGM Batteries

2009-09-15 Thread Peter Parrish 
I have been told that AGM batteries can withstand pretty aggressive charging
rates, with a bulk rate being ½ of C/20. For example a MK 8A8D, with a C/20
of 245 A-h, would start with 122 A. If this is okay, can I still use the
standard 14.6 V value for switching from Bulk to Absorb? What about ambient
temperature effects at high charge rates?

 

We have need from time to time to charge AGMs as quickly as we can safely do
so, so any information on high charge rates would be appreciated.

 

- Peter

 


Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP TM Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com  
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885


  

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