Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter On/Off Switch use Outback FX

[Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches]

We have used Dwyer Instrument coils in the past. They detect AC current flow 
and have contacts you can wire for operation of other circuitry. They have 
quite a range of devices and you may find one suitable for your needs.

Good luck!

 

 

Best regards,

 

Glenn Burt

glb, Consulting Company

1949 East Road

Bennington, VT 05201

glenn.b...@glbcc.com <mailto:glenn.b...@glbcc.com> 

(518) 681-2274

 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional TM

VT Special Electrician EL-06979

Microsoft Certified Professional

Member IEEE

 

 

 

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2023 12:37 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter On/Off Switch use Outback FX

 

Do you have a source for voltage sensing coils? I only know about using the 
Morningstar relay driver. 

 

Thank you,

 

Drake 

 

Drake Chamberlin

Athens Electric LLC

Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810

CO Master Electrician’s License 4526

NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional

---

 

 

On 2023-07-21 07:10, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote:

To avoid power relay, how about adding a voltage sensing coil on the AC input 
and have an NC contactor that opens on voltage in series with the inverter 
shutdown circuit.  This should interrupt the inverter shutdown any time the 
generator is on.

 

On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 6:00 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> > 
wrote:

I've done the AC relay idea as well, on Schneider that didn't have the easy off 
switching like the Outbacks.  The problems are:
1) Much bigger relay, much higher current on the control side as well.  It 
required a relay for the relay.
2) If there's a malfunction, you are messing with the main feeders for the 
home. 
3) The inverters are still on with their no load draw, a pair of VFX inverters, 
would be 45 to 50 watts, so you could still shut the batteries down. 

I think in your case without AGS, the trick might be to add a bypass control 
switch parallel to the relay, so they can manually turn the inverters back on.  

Ray

On 7/20/2023 5:15 PM, Jay wrote:

Hi Ray

 

This house won't have an AGS, manual start only. 

 

And your comments exactly, having to wait until the next day when hopefully 
there is enough sun to charge the battery is iffy. 

 

Or they could do the inverter bypass switch. 

 

Again I'm back to why is it a worse idea to install a relay on the AC? 

 

Thx

 

Jay

 

As to the sol ark which I never thought about it being in a sense an AC coupled 
system. IE if the inverter is off it won't charge. 

I guess you'll have to install an external  battery charger?

 

 

 





On Jul 20, 2023, at 5:08 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches  
<mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>  
wrote:

The aux off is only if the generator doesn't start.  You need to set the gen 
start voltage higher. Aux off is last ditch shut down, set for 44v for lead 
acid, or 47 to 49v, depending on the battery and inverter.   Hopefully DC 
coupled PV will raise the voltage enough to turn the inverters back on the next 
day.  

This is my concern on Solark installs, I just noticed that the inverter won't 
pass through PV, if it hits its LVD set point.  

On 7/20/2023 3:04 PM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote:

HI All, 

 

I wanted to revisit this thread for one reason.

 

If you turn off the inverter at the remote on/off with the AUX relay, then 
starting the generator won't have any impact as the inverter is off.  

So someone will have to go and reset the AUX relay.

 

Vs

 

If you do a relay on the AC output, when you start the generator, it will start 
charging, raising the battery volts, causing the AUX relay to close AC output 
relay and you'll have power in the house.

 

Am I missing something?

 

thanks

 

jay

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here is the last email I think:

 

Mac,
 

I think you've got an elegant solution to the problem. All you need is an 
inexpensive relay and to program the Aux output for loadshed. I believe 
shutting down the inverter with the remote on/off contacts is actually less 
stressful on the inverter than opening a relay or contactor on the load side. 

Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar
 
 
On 7/11/2023 5:19 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote:

Hello Wrenches,
 

I'm trying to solve an issue with an older Outback FX system.  It's a quad 
stack of Outback 3648 FX inverters and he has a couple of Fortress eVault and 
an unreliable generator. The LBCO setting can't go high enough to cut out 
before the eVaults cut out so he occasionally will have to direct charge the 
eVault to get things running again.I'd like to use a 12V Aux relay logic to 
trip the primary inverter on/off contacts before we go into battery shutdown so 
the solar has a chance to recover the system.  Pretty simple overall but I 
wanted to see if there are any known ill effects of doing this with substantial 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter On/Off Switch use Outback FX

[Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches]

Do you have a source for voltage sensing coils? I only know about using
the Morningstar relay driver. 

Thank you, 

Drake 

_Drake Chamberlin_ 

_Athens Electric LLC_ 

_Ohio Electrical Contractor's License 44810_ 

_CO Master Electrician's License 4526_ 


_NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional_

---

On 2023-07-21 07:10, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote:

To avoid power relay, how about adding a voltage sensing coil on the AC input and have an NC contactor that opens on voltage in series with the inverter shutdown circuit.  This should interrupt the inverter shutdown any time the generator is on. 

On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 6:00 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches  wrote: 


I've done the AC relay idea as well, on Schneider that didn't have the easy off 
switching like the Outbacks.  The problems are:
1) Much bigger relay, much higher current on the control side as well.  It 
required a relay for the relay.
2) If there's a malfunction, you are messing with the main feeders for the home. 
3) The inverters are still on with their no load draw, a pair of VFX inverters, would be 45 to 50 watts, so you could still shut the batteries down. 

I think in your case without AGS, the trick might be to add a bypass control switch parallel to the relay, so they can manually turn the inverters back on.  


Ray

On 7/20/2023 5:15 PM, Jay wrote: 
Hi Ray 

This house won't have an AGS, manual start only.  

And your comments exactly, having to wait until the next day when hopefully there is enough sun to charge the battery is iffy.  

Or they could do the inverter bypass switch.  

Again I'm back to why is it a worse idea to install a relay on the AC?  

Thx 

Jay 

As to the sol ark which I never thought about it being in a sense an AC coupled system. IE if the inverter is off it won't charge.  
I guess you'll have to install an external  battery charger? 


On Jul 20, 2023, at 5:08 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:

The aux off is only if the generator doesn't start.  You need to set the gen start voltage higher. Aux off is last ditch shut down, set for 44v for lead acid, or 47 to 49v, depending on the battery and inverter.   Hopefully DC coupled PV will raise the voltage enough to turn the inverters back on the next day.  

This is my concern on Solark installs, I just noticed that the inverter won't pass through PV, if it hits its LVD set point.  

On 7/20/2023 3:04 PM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote: HI All, 

I wanted to revisit this thread for one reason. 

If you turn off the inverter at the remote on/off with the AUX relay, then starting the generator won't have any impact as the inverter is off.   
So someone will have to go and reset the AUX relay. 

Vs 

If you do a relay on the AC output, when you start the generator, it will start charging, raising the battery volts, causing the AUX relay to close AC output relay and you'll have power in the house. 

Am I missing something? 

thanks 

jay 

Here is the last email I think: 


Mac,

I think you've got an elegant solution to the problem. All you need is an inexpensive relay and to program the Aux output for loadshed. I believe shutting down the inverter with the remote on/off contacts is actually less stressful on the inverter than opening a relay or contactor on the load side. 


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar

On 7/11/2023 5:19 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

I'm trying to solve an issue with an older Outback FX system.  It's a quad stack of Outback 3648 FX inverters and he has a couple of Fortress eVault and an unreliable generator. The LBCO setting can't go high enough to cut out before the eVaults cut out so he occasionally will have to direct charge the eVault to get things running again.I'd like to use a 12V Aux relay logic to trip the primary inverter on/off contacts before we go into battery shutdown so the solar has a chance to recover the system.  Pretty simple overall but I wanted to see if there are any known ill effects of doing this with substantial load on the system.  Of course, I can use a power relay but this may be better. 


Thanks for your input!

--

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter On/Off Switch use Outback FX

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

How about a Morningstar relay driver?  I have not done this exact thing
before.but similar things.

On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 4:05 PM jay via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> HI All,
>
> I wanted to revisit this thread for one reason.
>
> If you turn off the inverter at the remote on/off with the AUX relay, then
> starting the generator won’t have any impact as the inverter is off.
> So someone will have to go and reset the AUX relay.
>
> Vs
>
> If you do a relay on the AC output, when you start the generator, it will
> start charging, raising the battery volts, causing the AUX relay to close
> AC output relay and you’ll have power in the house.
>
> Am I missing something?
>
> thanks
>
> jay
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Here is the last email I think:
>
> Mac,
>
>
> I think you've got an elegant solution to the problem. All you need is an
> inexpensive relay and to program the Aux output for loadshed. I believe
> shutting down the inverter with the remote on/off contacts is actually
> less stressful on the inverter than opening a relay or contactor on the
> load side.
>
> Kent Osterberg
> Blue Mountain Solar
>
>
> On 7/11/2023 5:19 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> Hello Wrenches,
>
>
> I'm trying to solve an issue with an older Outback FX system.  It's a quad
> stack of Outback 3648 FX inverters and he has a couple of Fortress eVault
> and an unreliable generator. The LBCO setting can't go high enough to cut
> out before the eVaults cut out so he occasionally will have to direct
> charge the eVault to get things running again.
>
> I'd like to use a 12V Aux relay logic to trip the primary inverter on/off
> contacts before we go into battery shutdown so the solar has a chance to
> recover the system.  Pretty simple overall but I wanted to see if there
> are any known ill effects of doing this with substantial load on the
> system.  Of course, I can use a power relay but this may be better.
>
> Thanks for your input!
>
> --
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter On/Off Switch use Outback FX

[Maxfield Solar via RE-wrenches]

See this image to see what we mean...


I hope this makes sense.

Thanks,
Kienan

Green-Go Solar Wholesale Distribution LLC
maxfieldso...@hotmail.com
(801) 631-5584(Cell)
www.distribution.solar
On Jul 21, 2023 at 4:07 PM -0600, Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches 
, wrote:
> I was just about to suggest the same thing Mac suggested. Any 120 V relay 
> would work. Just wire it in parallel with the auxiliary relay that is 
> shutting the inverter off. When the AC input is energized, the relay closes, 
> and your inverter turns on. I like using a relay that has a base. I trust the 
> Eaton ice cube ones, but they’re kind of expensive. Here’s a cheaper one…
>
> https://www.platt.com/p/0648927/abb/general-purpose-relay-11-blade-3pdt-120v-ac/abb1svr405612r2000
>
> Base - 
> https://www.platt.com/p/0736026/abb/socket-11-blade-cr-m/abb1svr405651r2000
>
>
> These are the ones I stock on my work truck -  
> https://www.platt.com/p/0147434/eaton/relay-120vac-coil-dpdt-10a-8-pin-plug-in-style/786685930169/cutd3rf2a
>
> Base - 
> https://www.platt.com/p/0384871/eaton/socket-octal-8-pin-screw-clamp-terminals/782114159767/cutd3pa2
>
> I like these ones for a few reasons. One, they seem to be quality. Two, you 
> can get them in a wide variety of coil voltages, including DC voltages. 
> Three, I like the little control tab where you can manually turn the relay on 
> if you ever have a reason to do that.
>
> Thanks,
> Kienan
>
>
> Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC
> Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company)
> maxfieldso...@hotmail.com
> (801) 631-5584(Cell)
> www.distribution.solar
>
> > On Jul 21, 2023, at 6:29 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches 
> >  wrote:
> >
> > I’ve never used one before.
> >
> > Can you recommend one?
> >
> > > On Jul 21, 2023, at 5:12 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches 
> > >  wrote:
> > >
> > > To avoid power relay, how about adding a voltage sensing coil on the AC 
> > > input and have an NC contactor that opens on voltage in series with the 
> > > inverter shutdown circuit.  This should interrupt the inverter shutdown 
> > > any time the generator is on.
> > >
> > > > On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 6:00 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches 
> > > >  wrote:
> > > > > I've done the AC relay idea as well, on Schneider that didn't have 
> > > > > the easy off switching like the Outbacks.  The problems are:
> > > > > 1) Much bigger relay, much higher current on the control side as 
> > > > > well.  It required a relay for the relay.
> > > > > 2) If there's a malfunction, you are messing with the main feeders 
> > > > > for the home.
> > > > > 3) The inverters are still on with their no load draw, a pair of VFX 
> > > > > inverters, would be 45 to 50 watts, so you could still shut the 
> > > > > batteries down.
> > > > > I think in your case without AGS, the trick might be to add a bypass 
> > > > > control switch parallel to the relay, so they can manually turn the 
> > > > > inverters back on.
> > > > > Ray
> > > > > On 7/20/2023 5:15 PM, Jay wrote:
> > > > > > Hi Ray
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This house won’t have an AGS, manual start only.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And your comments exactly, having to wait until the next day when 
> > > > > > hopefully there is enough sun to charge the battery is iffy.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Or they could do the inverter bypass switch.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Again I’m back to why is it a worse idea to install a relay on the 
> > > > > > AC?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thx
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jay
> > > > > >
> > > > > > As to the sol ark which I never thought about it being in a sense 
> > > > > > an AC coupled system. IE if the inverter is off it won’t charge.
> > > > > > I guess you’ll have to install an external  battery charger?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Jul 20, 2023, at 5:08 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches 
> > > > > > >  wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The aux off is only if the generator doesn't start.  You need to 
> > > > > > > set the gen start voltage higher. Aux off is last ditch shut 
> > > > > > > down, set for 44v for lead acid, or 47 to 49v, depending on the 
> > > > > > > battery and inverter.   Hopefully DC coupled PV will raise the 
> > > > > > > voltage enough to turn the inverters back on the next day.
> > > > > > > This is my concern on Solark installs, I just noticed that the 
> > > > > > > inverter won't pass through PV, if it hits its LVD set point.
> > > > > > > On 7/20/2023 3:04 PM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote:
> > > > > > > > HI All,
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I wanted to revisit this thread for one reason.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you turn off the inverter at the remote on/off with the AUX 
> > > > > > > > relay, then starting the generator won’t have any impact as the 
> > > > > > > > inverter is off.
> > > > > > > > So someone will have to go and reset the AUX relay.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Vs
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > If you do a relay on the AC output, when you start the 
> > > > > > > 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter On/Off Switch use Outback FX

[Kienan Maxfield via RE-wrenches]

I was just about to suggest the same thing Mac suggested. Any 120 V relay would 
work. Just wire it in parallel with the auxiliary relay that is shutting the 
inverter off. When the AC input is energized, the relay closes, and your 
inverter turns on. I like using a relay that has a base. I trust the Eaton ice 
cube ones, but they’re kind of expensive. Here’s a cheaper one…

https://www.platt.com/p/0648927/abb/general-purpose-relay-11-blade-3pdt-120v-ac/abb1svr405612r2000

Base - 
https://www.platt.com/p/0736026/abb/socket-11-blade-cr-m/abb1svr405651r2000


These are the ones I stock on my work truck -  
https://www.platt.com/p/0147434/eaton/relay-120vac-coil-dpdt-10a-8-pin-plug-in-style/786685930169/cutd3rf2a

Base - 
https://www.platt.com/p/0384871/eaton/socket-octal-8-pin-screw-clamp-terminals/782114159767/cutd3pa2

I like these ones for a few reasons. One, they seem to be quality. Two, you can 
get them in a wide variety of coil voltages, including DC voltages. Three, I 
like the little control tab where you can manually turn the relay on if you 
ever have a reason to do that.

Thanks,
Kienan



Green-Go Solar Distribution LLC

Maxfield Solar LLC (installation and consulting company)

maxfieldso...@hotmail.com

(801) 631-5584(Cell)

www.distribution.solar

On Jul 21, 2023, at 6:29 AM, Jay via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


I’ve never used one before.

Can you recommend one?

On Jul 21, 2023, at 5:12 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:


To avoid power relay, how about adding a voltage sensing coil on the AC input 
and have an NC contactor that opens on voltage in series with the inverter 
shutdown circuit.  This should interrupt the inverter shutdown any time the 
generator is on.

On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 6:00 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:

I've done the AC relay idea as well, on Schneider that didn't have the easy off 
switching like the Outbacks.  The problems are:
1) Much bigger relay, much higher current on the control side as well.  It 
required a relay for the relay.
2) If there's a malfunction, you are messing with the main feeders for the home.
3) The inverters are still on with their no load draw, a pair of VFX inverters, 
would be 45 to 50 watts, so you could still shut the batteries down.

I think in your case without AGS, the trick might be to add a bypass control 
switch parallel to the relay, so they can manually turn the inverters back on.

Ray

On 7/20/2023 5:15 PM, Jay wrote:
Hi Ray

This house won’t have an AGS, manual start only.

And your comments exactly, having to wait until the next day when hopefully 
there is enough sun to charge the battery is iffy.

Or they could do the inverter bypass switch.

Again I’m back to why is it a worse idea to install a relay on the AC?

Thx

Jay

As to the sol ark which I never thought about it being in a sense an AC coupled 
system. IE if the inverter is off it won’t charge.
I guess you’ll have to install an external  battery charger?




On Jul 20, 2023, at 5:08 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches 
 
wrote:



The aux off is only if the generator doesn't start.  You need to set the gen 
start voltage higher. Aux off is last ditch shut down, set for 44v for lead 
acid, or 47 to 49v, depending on the battery and inverter.   Hopefully DC 
coupled PV will raise the voltage enough to turn the inverters back on the next 
day.

This is my concern on Solark installs, I just noticed that the inverter won't 
pass through PV, if it hits its LVD set point.

On 7/20/2023 3:04 PM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote:
HI All,

I wanted to revisit this thread for one reason.

If you turn off the inverter at the remote on/off with the AUX relay, then 
starting the generator won’t have any impact as the inverter is off.
So someone will have to go and reset the AUX relay.

Vs

If you do a relay on the AC output, when you start the generator, it will start 
charging, raising the battery volts, causing the AUX relay to close AC output 
relay and you’ll have power in the house.

Am I missing something?

thanks

jay








Here is the last email I think:


Mac,



I think you've got an elegant solution to the problem. All you need is an 
inexpensive relay and to program the Aux output for loadshed. I believe 
shutting down the inverter with the remote on/off contacts is actually less 
stressful on the inverter than opening a relay or contactor on the load side.

Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


On 7/11/2023 5:19 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote:


Hello Wrenches,



I'm trying to solve an issue with an older Outback FX system.  It's a quad 
stack of Outback 3648 FX inverters and he has a couple of Fortress eVault and 
an unreliable generator. The LBCO setting can't go high enough to cut out 
before the eVaults cut out so he occasionally will have to direct charge the 
eVault to get things running again.I'd like to use a 12V Aux relay logic to 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter On/Off Switch use Outback FX

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

I’ve never used one before. Can you recommend one?On Jul 21, 2023, at 5:12 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches  wrote:To avoid power relay, how about adding a voltage sensing coil on the AC input and have an NC contactor that opens on voltage in series with the inverter shutdown circuit.  This should interrupt the inverter shutdown any time the generator is on.On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 6:00 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches  wrote:
  

  
  
I've done the AC relay idea as well, on Schneider that didn't
  have the easy off switching like the Outbacks.  The problems are:
  1) Much bigger relay, much higher current on the control side as
  well.  It required a relay for the relay.
  2) If there's a malfunction, you are messing with the main feeders
  for the home. 
  3) The inverters are still on with their no load draw, a pair of
  VFX inverters, would be 45 to 50 watts, so you could still shut
  the batteries down. 

I think in your case without AGS, the trick might be to add a
  bypass control switch parallel to the relay, so they can manually
  turn the inverters back on.  

Ray

On 7/20/2023 5:15 PM, Jay wrote:


  
  Hi Ray
  
  
  This house won’t have an AGS, manual start only. 
  
  
  And your comments exactly, having to wait until the
next day when hopefully there is enough sun to charge the
battery is iffy. 
  
  
  Or they could do the inverter bypass switch. 
  
  
  Again I’m back to why is it a worse idea to install
a relay on the AC? 
  
  
  Thx
  
  
  Jay
  
  
  As to the sol ark which I never thought about it
being in a sense an AC coupled system. IE if the inverter is off
it won’t charge. 
  I guess you’ll have to install an external  battery
charger?
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
On Jul 20, 2023, at 5:08 PM, Ray Walters
  via RE-wrenches 
  wrote:
  

  
  

  
  The aux off is only if the generator doesn't start.  You
need to set the gen start voltage higher. Aux off is last
ditch shut down, set for 44v for lead acid, or 47 to 49v,
depending on the battery and inverter.   Hopefully DC
coupled PV will raise the voltage enough to turn the
inverters back on the next day.  
  
  This is my concern on Solark installs, I just noticed that
the inverter won't pass through PV, if it hits its LVD set
point.  
  
  On 7/20/2023 3:04 PM, jay via
RE-wrenches wrote:
  
  

HI All,


I wanted to revisit this thread for one
  reason.


If you turn off the inverter at the remote
  on/off with the AUX relay, then starting the generator
  won’t have any impact as the inverter is off.  
So someone will have to go and reset the AUX
  relay.


Vs


If you do a relay on the AC output, when you
  start the generator, it will start charging, raising the
  battery volts, causing the AUX relay to close AC output
  relay and you’ll have power in the house.


Am I missing something?


thanks


jay
















Here is the last email I think:



  Mac,


  I think you've got an elegant solution to the
problem. All you need is an inexpensive
relay and to program the Aux output for loadshed. I believe
shutting down the inverter with the remote on/off
contacts is actually less stressful on the inverter
than opening a relay or contactor on the
load side.
  Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


On 7/11/2023 5:19 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote:

  
Hello Wrenches,


I'm trying to solve an issue with an older
  Outback FX system.  It's a quad stack of
  Outback 3648 FX inverters and he has a couple of Fortress eVault and an unreliable generator.
  The LBCO setting can't go high enough to
  cut out before the eVaults cut out so he occasionally will have to direct charge the
  eVault to 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter On/Off Switch use Outback FX

[Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches]

To avoid power relay, how about adding a voltage sensing coil on the AC
input and have an NC contactor that opens on voltage in series with the
inverter shutdown circuit.  This should interrupt the inverter shutdown any
time the generator is on.

On Thu, Jul 20, 2023 at 6:00 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> I've done the AC relay idea as well, on Schneider that didn't have the
> easy off switching like the Outbacks.  The problems are:
> 1) Much bigger relay, much higher current on the control side as well.  It
> required a relay for the relay.
> 2) If there's a malfunction, you are messing with the main feeders for the
> home.
> 3) The inverters are still on with their no load draw, a pair of VFX
> inverters, would be 45 to 50 watts, so you could still shut the batteries
> down.
>
> I think in your case without AGS, the trick might be to add a bypass
> control switch parallel to the relay, so they can manually turn the
> inverters back on.
>
> Ray
> On 7/20/2023 5:15 PM, Jay wrote:
>
> Hi Ray
>
> This house won’t have an AGS, manual start only.
>
> And your comments exactly, having to wait until the next day when
> hopefully there is enough sun to charge the battery is iffy.
>
> Or they could do the inverter bypass switch.
>
> Again I’m back to why is it a worse idea to install a relay on the AC?
>
> Thx
>
> Jay
>
> As to the sol ark which I never thought about it being in a sense an AC
> coupled system. IE if the inverter is off it won’t charge.
> I guess you’ll have to install an external  battery charger?
>
>
>
>
> On Jul 20, 2023, at 5:08 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches
>  
> wrote:
>
> 
>
> The aux off is only if the generator doesn't start.  You need to set the
> gen start voltage higher. Aux off is last ditch shut down, set for 44v for
> lead acid, or 47 to 49v, depending on the battery and inverter.   Hopefully
> DC coupled PV will raise the voltage enough to turn the inverters back on
> the next day.
>
> This is my concern on Solark installs, I just noticed that the inverter
> won't pass through PV, if it hits its LVD set point.
> On 7/20/2023 3:04 PM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> HI All,
>
> I wanted to revisit this thread for one reason.
>
> If you turn off the inverter at the remote on/off with the AUX relay, then
> starting the generator won’t have any impact as the inverter is off.
> So someone will have to go and reset the AUX relay.
>
> Vs
>
> If you do a relay on the AC output, when you start the generator, it will
> start charging, raising the battery volts, causing the AUX relay to close
> AC output relay and you’ll have power in the house.
>
> Am I missing something?
>
> thanks
>
> jay
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Here is the last email I think:
>
> Mac,
>
>
> I think you've got an elegant solution to the problem. All you need is an
> inexpensive relay and to program the Aux output for loadshed. I believe
> shutting down the inverter with the remote on/off contacts is actually
> less stressful on the inverter than opening a relay or contactor on the
> load side.
>
> Kent Osterberg
> Blue Mountain Solar
>
>
> On 7/11/2023 5:19 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> Hello Wrenches,
>
>
> I'm trying to solve an issue with an older Outback FX system.  It's a quad
> stack of Outback 3648 FX inverters and he has a couple of Fortress eVault
> and an unreliable generator. The LBCO setting can't go high enough to cut
> out before the eVaults cut out so he occasionally will have to direct
> charge the eVault to get things running again.I'd like to use a 12V Aux
> relay logic to trip the primary inverter on/off contacts before we go
> into battery shutdown so the solar has a chance to recover the system.
> Pretty simple overall but I wanted to see if there are any known ill
> effects of doing this with substantial load on the system.  Of course, I
> can use a power relay but this may be better.
>
> Thanks for your input!
>
> --
>
>
>
> ___
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>
> There are two list archives for searching. 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter On/Off Switch use Outback FX

[Ray Walters via RE-wrenches]

I've done the AC relay idea as well, on Schneider that didn't have the 
easy off switching like the Outbacks.  The problems are:
1) Much bigger relay, much higher current on the control side as well.  
It required a relay for the relay.
2) If there's a malfunction, you are messing with the main feeders for 
the home.
3) The inverters are still on with their no load draw, a pair of VFX 
inverters, would be 45 to 50 watts, so you could still shut the 
batteries down.


I think in your case without AGS, the trick might be to add a bypass 
control switch parallel to the relay, so they can manually turn the 
inverters back on.


Ray

On 7/20/2023 5:15 PM, Jay wrote:

Hi Ray

This house won’t have an AGS, manual start only.

And your comments exactly, having to wait until the next day when 
hopefully there is enough sun to charge the battery is iffy.


Or they could do the inverter bypass switch.

Again I’m back to why is it a worse idea to install a relay on the AC?

Thx

Jay

As to the sol ark which I never thought about it being in a sense an 
AC coupled system. IE if the inverter is off it won’t charge.

I guess you’ll have to install an external  battery charger?




On Jul 20, 2023, at 5:08 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:




The aux off is only if the generator doesn't start.  You need to set 
the gen start voltage higher. Aux off is last ditch shut down, set 
for 44v for lead acid, or 47 to 49v, depending on the battery and 
inverter.   Hopefully DC coupled PV will raise the voltage enough to 
turn the inverters back on the next day.


This is my concern on Solark installs, I just noticed that the 
inverter won't pass through PV, if it hits its LVD set point.


On 7/20/2023 3:04 PM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote:

HI All,

I wanted to revisit this thread for one reason.

If you turn off the inverter at the remote on/off with the AUX 
relay, then starting the generator won’t have any impact as the 
inverter is off.

So someone will have to go and reset the AUX relay.

Vs

If you do a relay on the AC output, when you start the generator, it 
will start charging, raising the battery volts, causing the AUX 
relay to close AC output relay and you’ll have power in the house.


Am I missing something?

thanks

jay








Here is the last email I think:

Mac,

I think you've got an elegant solution to the problem. All you need 
is an inexpensive relay and to program the Aux output for loadshed. 
I believe shutting down the inverter with the remote on/off contacts 
is actually less stressful on the inverter than opening a relay or 
contactor on the load side.

Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


On 7/11/2023 5:19 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

I'm trying to solve an issue with an older Outback FX system. 
It's a quad stack of Outback 3648 FX inverters and he has a
couple of Fortress eVault and an unreliable generator. The
LBCO setting can't go high enough to cut out before the eVaults
cut out so he occasionally will have to direct charge the eVault
to get things running again.I'd like to use a 12V Aux relay
logic to trip the primary inverter on/off contacts before we go
into battery shutdown so the solar has a chance to recover the
system.  Pretty simple overall but I wanted to see if there are
any known ill effects of doing this with substantial load on the
system.  Of course, I can use a power relay but this may be better.

Thanks for your input!

--



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter On/Off Switch use Outback FX

[Jay via RE-wrenches]

Hi RayThis house won’t have an AGS, manual start only. And your comments exactly, having to wait until the next day when hopefully there is enough sun to charge the battery is iffy. Or they could do the inverter bypass switch. Again I’m back to why is it a worse idea to install a relay on the AC? ThxJayAs to the sol ark which I never thought about it being in a sense an AC coupled system. IE if the inverter is off it won’t charge. I guess you’ll have to install an external  battery charger?On Jul 20, 2023, at 5:08 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches  wrote:
  

  
  
The aux off is only if the generator doesn't start.  You need to
  set the gen start voltage higher. Aux off is last ditch shut down,
  set for 44v for lead acid, or 47 to 49v, depending on the battery
  and inverter.   Hopefully DC coupled PV will raise the voltage
  enough to turn the inverters back on the next day.  

This is my concern on Solark installs, I just noticed that the
  inverter won't pass through PV, if it hits its LVD set point.  

On 7/20/2023 3:04 PM, jay via
  RE-wrenches wrote:


  
  HI All,
  
  
  I wanted to revisit this thread for one reason.
  
  
  If you turn off the inverter at the remote on/off
with the AUX relay, then starting the generator won’t have any
impact as the inverter is off.  
  So someone will have to go and reset the AUX relay.
  
  
  Vs
  
  
  If you do a relay on the AC output, when you start
the generator, it will start charging, raising the battery
volts, causing the AUX relay to close AC output relay and you’ll
have power in the house.
  
  
  Am I missing something?
  
  
  thanks
  
  
  jay
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  Here is the last email I think:
  
  
  
Mac,


I think
  you've got an elegant solution to the problem. All you need
  is an
  inexpensive relay and to program the Aux output for loadshed.
  I believe
  shutting down the inverter with the remote on/off contacts is actually less
  stressful on the inverter than opening a relay or contactor on
  the load side.
Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


On 7/11/2023 5:19 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote:


  Hello Wrenches,


  I'm trying
to solve an issue with an older Outback FX system.  It's a quad stack
of Outback 3648 FX inverters and he has a couple of Fortress
eVault and an unreliable generator. The LBCO setting can't
go high enough to cut out before the eVaults cut out
so he occasionally will have to direct charge the eVault
to get things running again.I'd like to use a 12V Aux relay
logic to trip the primary inverter on/off contacts before
we go into battery shutdown so the solar has a chance to
recover the system.  Pretty simple overall but I wanted to see if there
are any known ill effects of doing this with substantial load on the
system.  Of course, I can use a power relay but this may be better.
  Thanks for your input!

--



  
  
  
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter On/Off Switch use Outback FX

[Ray Walters via RE-wrenches]

The aux off is only if the generator doesn't start.  You need to set the 
gen start voltage higher. Aux off is last ditch shut down, set for 44v 
for lead acid, or 47 to 49v, depending on the battery and inverter.   
Hopefully DC coupled PV will raise the voltage enough to turn the 
inverters back on the next day.


This is my concern on Solark installs, I just noticed that the inverter 
won't pass through PV, if it hits its LVD set point.


On 7/20/2023 3:04 PM, jay via RE-wrenches wrote:

HI All,

I wanted to revisit this thread for one reason.

If you turn off the inverter at the remote on/off with the AUX relay, 
then starting the generator won’t have any impact as the inverter is off.

So someone will have to go and reset the AUX relay.

Vs

If you do a relay on the AC output, when you start the generator, it 
will start charging, raising the battery volts, causing the AUX relay 
to close AC output relay and you’ll have power in the house.


Am I missing something?

thanks

jay








Here is the last email I think:

Mac,

I think you've got an elegant solution to the problem. All you need is 
an inexpensive relay and to program the Aux output for loadshed. I 
believe shutting down the inverter with the remote on/off contacts is 
actually less stressful on the inverter than opening a relay or 
contactor on the load side.

Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


On 7/11/2023 5:19 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

I'm trying to solve an issue with an older Outback FX system. 
It's a quad stack of Outback 3648 FX inverters and he has a couple
of Fortress eVault and an unreliable generator. The LBCO setting
can't go high enough to cut out before the eVaults cut out so he
occasionally will have to direct charge the eVault to get things
running again.I'd like to use a 12V Aux relay logic to trip the
primary inverter on/off contacts before we go into battery
shutdown so the solar has a chance to recover the system.  Pretty
simple overall but I wanted to see if there are any known ill
effects of doing this with substantial load on the system.  Of
course, I can use a power relay but this may be better.

Thanks for your input!

--



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter On/Off Switch use Outback FX

[jay via RE-wrenches]

HI All,

I wanted to revisit this thread for one reason.

If you turn off the inverter at the remote on/off with the AUX relay, then 
starting the generator won’t have any impact as the inverter is off.  
So someone will have to go and reset the AUX relay.

Vs

If you do a relay on the AC output, when you start the generator, it will start 
charging, raising the battery volts, causing the AUX relay to close AC output 
relay and you’ll have power in the house.

Am I missing something?

thanks

jay








Here is the last email I think:

Mac,

I think you've got an elegant solution to the problem. All you need is an 
inexpensive relay and to program the Aux output for loadshed. I believe 
shutting down the inverter with the remote on/off contacts is actually less 
stressful on the inverter than opening a relay or contactor on the load side.
Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


On 7/11/2023 5:19 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote:
Hello Wrenches,

I'm trying to solve an issue with an older Outback FX system.  It's a quad 
stack of Outback 3648 FX inverters and he has a couple of Fortress eVault and 
an unreliable generator. The LBCO setting can't go high enough to cut out 
before the eVaults cut out so he occasionally will have to direct charge the 
eVault to get things running again.
I'd like to use a 12V Aux relay logic to trip the primary inverter on/off 
contacts before we go into battery shutdown so the solar has a chance to 
recover the system.  Pretty simple overall but I wanted to see if there are any 
known ill effects of doing this with substantial load on the system.  Of 
course, I can use a power relay but this may be better.
Thanks for your input!

--

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter On/Off Switch use Outback FX

[Starlight via RE-wrenches]

They did not anticipate the use with Lithium battery chemistry which is mostly 
discharged at 12.7V, and that happens to be the fully charged resting voltage 
of lead batteries. 

Seems as though by now manufacturers should have increased the LBCO voltage 
range in the software.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems



On Jul 13, 2023, at 9:29 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:

Hi Mac;

I've used the aux control on charge controllers to turn on/off the FX 
inverters, just as you planned.  Works fine, and solves the LBCO programming 
issue.

Now, if someone from the manufacturing side could PLEASE explain why they 
limited the LBCO on all these inverter models.  Absolutely makes no sense.  
Schneider, Outback, even Magnum is too low...?

Ray Walters



On 7/11/2023 6:19 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote:
> Hello Wrenches,
> 
> I'm trying to solve an issue with an older Outback FX system.  It's a quad 
> stack of Outback 3648 FX inverters and he has a couple of Fortress eVault and 
> an unreliable generator. The LBCO setting can't go high enough to cut out 
> before the eVaults cut out so he occasionally will have to direct charge the 
> eVault to get things running again.
> 
> I'd like to use a 12V Aux relay logic to trip the primary inverter on/off 
> contacts before we go into battery shutdown so the solar has a chance to 
> recover the system.  Pretty simple overall but I wanted to see if there are 
> any known ill effects of doing this with substantial load on the system.  Of 
> course, I can use a power relay but this may be better.
> 
> Thanks for your input!
> 
> -- 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac Lewis
> 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter On/Off Switch use Outback FX

[Ray Walters via RE-wrenches]

Hi Mac;

I've used the aux control on charge controllers to turn on/off the FX 
inverters, just as you planned.  Works fine, and solves the LBCO 
programming issue.


Now, if someone from the manufacturing side could PLEASE explain why 
they limited the LBCO on all these inverter models. Absolutely makes no 
sense.  Schneider, Outback, even Magnum is too low...?


Ray Walters


On 7/11/2023 6:19 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

I'm trying to solve an issue with an older Outback FX system.  It's a 
quad stack of Outback 3648 FX inverters and he has a couple of 
Fortress eVault and an unreliable generator. The LBCO setting can't go 
high enough to cut out before the eVaults cut out so he 
occasionally will have to direct charge the eVault to get things 
running again.


I'd like to use a 12V Aux relay logic to trip the primary inverter 
on/off contacts before we go into battery shutdown so the solar has a 
chance to recover the system.  Pretty simple overall but I wanted to 
see if there are any known ill effects of doing this with substantial 
load on the system.  Of course, I can use a power relay but this may 
be better.


Thanks for your input!

--



Mac Lewis

*

"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates

*

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter On/Off Switch use Outback FX

[Kent via RE-wrenches]

Mac,

I think you've got an elegant solution to the problem. All you need is 
an inexpensive relay and to program the Aux output for loadshed. I 
believe shutting down the inverter with the remote on/off contacts is 
actually less stressful on the inverter than opening a relay or 
contactor on the load side.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


On 7/11/2023 5:19 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

I'm trying to solve an issue with an older Outback FX system.  It's a 
quad stack of Outback 3648 FX inverters and he has a couple of 
Fortress eVault and an unreliable generator. The LBCO setting can't go 
high enough to cut out before the eVaults cut out so he 
occasionally will have to direct charge the eVault to get things 
running again.


I'd like to use a 12V Aux relay logic to trip the primary inverter 
on/off contacts before we go into battery shutdown so the solar has a 
chance to recover the system.  Pretty simple overall but I wanted to 
see if there are any known ill effects of doing this with substantial 
load on the system.  Of course, I can use a power relay but this may 
be better.


Thanks for your input!

--



Mac Lewis

*

"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates

*

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[RE-wrenches] Inverter On/Off Switch use Outback FX

[Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches]

Hello Wrenches,

I'm trying to solve an issue with an older Outback FX system.  It's a quad
stack of Outback 3648 FX inverters and he has a couple of Fortress eVault
and an unreliable generator. The LBCO setting can't go high enough to cut
out before the eVaults cut out so he occasionally will have to direct
charge the eVault to get things running again.

I'd like to use a 12V Aux relay logic to trip the primary inverter on/off
contacts before we go into battery shutdown so the solar has a chance to
recover the system.  Pretty simple overall but I wanted to see if there are
any known ill effects of doing this with substantial load on the system.
Of course, I can use a power relay but this may be better.

Thanks for your input!

-- 



Mac Lewis

*"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates*
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