Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4024 grief

[Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches]

Hi, happy holidays to all.  Of course it sounds like a dual bonding
situation.  Inverter generators are normally floating neutral, rotating
generators are normally neutral bonded internally in the generator.  The
GFCI detects a neutral current on the ground wire.  If the generator is
bonded internally it may be simplest to unbond at the generator.  However
you should bond ie ground the neutral downstream and only one bond.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 12:06 PM Chris Daum via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Hi folks:
>
> We have a new Magnum MS4024 mounted on an E-Panel using a MidNite Classic
> 150 and Whiz-Bang JR with power coming from an array of Trina
> TSM365-De06X-05(II) (three strings of three) with the ME-RC50 and a HUP
> SolarOne 6-85-14/24 battery.
> When we attempt to use the PFC (Power Factored Charger), the Gen Set’s
> GFCI outlets trip.  Thus far we have verified the connections are secure,
> assured that the gen set is grounded, disconnected the jumper within the
> E-Panel between the ground buss and neutral, checked AC voltages, removed
> the MNSPD’s from the buss(s)…  Stumped now on what an appropriate next step
> should be.  How do we get the PFC to function properly?  What are we
> missing?
>
> Best,
>
> Chris Daum
> Oasis Montana Inc.
> 406-777-4309 or 4321
> 406-777-4309 fax
> www.oasismontana.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4024 grief

[Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches]

If all else fails, cut the equipment ground prong from the attachment
plug to the generator. The generator is internally grounded. You appear
to have an internal ground in your system somewhere.  


---

On 2022-12-16 13:35, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches wrote:

You may have neutral and ground connected at more than 1 location, meaning at the genset and in house panel, which means the ground is carrying current back to the generator in parallel with the neutral. 

I remember with some Honda portables we had to float the neutral at the genset or the inverter would trip the generator's GFI when trying to charge the batteries. 

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 1:16 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches  wrote: 


The easy answer is try another genset !  You have to be more specific, did it 
ever work? Is it new? etc.  Good Luck !

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On 2022-12-16 10:04 am, Chris Daum via RE-wrenches wrote: 
Hi folks:


We have a new Magnum MS4024 mounted on an E-Panel using a MidNite Classic 150 
and Whiz-Bang JR with power coming from an array of Trina TSM365-De06X-05(II) 
(three strings of three) with the ME-RC50 and a HUP SolarOne 6-85-14/24 battery.
When we attempt to use the PFC (Power Factored Charger), the Gen Set's GFCI 
outlets trip.  Thus far we have verified the connections are secure, assured 
that the gen set is grounded, disconnected the jumper within the E-Panel 
between the ground buss and neutral, checked AC voltages, removed the MNSPD's 
from the buss(s)...  Stumped now on what an appropriate next step should be.  
How do we get the PFC to function properly?  What are we missing?

Best,

Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309 or 4321
406-777-4309 fax
www.oasismontana.com [1] 


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 -- 

Kirk Herander / kirkh@vermont.solar 

Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC 

_Celebrating our 31st Anniversary 1991-2022!!_ 

www.vermont.solar [2] 

dba Vermont Solar Engineering 

802.863.1202 
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Links:
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[2]
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4024 grief

[Sindelar Solar via RE-wrenches]

Chris,
I also found Kirk's response to capture what I would've checked first. 
Ray is correct about multiple neutral-ground bonds, but there's a point 
that I think has been missed. You didn't identify the generator, and I'm 
going to assume that it's a portable gasoline unit. They have GFCIs on 
the AC output because they're almost never connected to a solid ground, 
and that's the safest they can make the output - they internally bond 
neutral to the chassis of the gennie and run the output through a GFCI. 
When they're connected to an off grid home there's always going to be a 
ground loop in a correctly wired installation, because the Powercenter 
is the first point of disconnect and is thus where the overall system 
neutral-ground bond should be made.


In my experience there is no fully Code-compliant solution to this. At 
least, I never came up with one, and many years ago neither could John 
Wiles when I discussed it with him. You don't want to disconnect the 
bond in the E-Panel because if the gennie is the only bond point and 
it's disconnected (by unplugging it) your system ground becomes 
unbonded. Stationary generators generally separate the bond, or at least 
allow it to be separated (small Kohler units always allowed this), 
because of this very issue - for prime power (non-solar) applications 
the bond is made at the source, but where it's a secondary source it 
needs to be separated. Portable generators don't give this option.


The best solution John and I came up with is to treat the gennie as a 
separately derived system: ground it to its own rod; put it far enough 
from the home that you can't touch it and anything grounded in the home 
at the same time; bond normally in the E-Panel; and eliminate or 
disconnect and tie off the bonding conductor between the gennie and the 
PV system. Only by treating it as a separately derived system can you 
get around the requirement that all service equipment must be bonded.


And if the gennie has a separable neutral-ground bond that's been 
opened, I have no idea how to solve your issue... 😉

Allan
--
*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com 
(Former) NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
Founder (Retired), Sindelar Solar
*505 780-2738 cell*

On 12/16/2022 12:44 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote:


Undoing the N-G bond at the E panel may not do it either.  Are you 
sure neutral isn't also bonded in the main distribution panel?  It 
usually is bonded at the generator, so you definitely have to unbond 
there.  I'd say 60 to 70% of off grid systems are not bonded correctly 
that I've seen.  Just what Kirk said: it should only be bonded N-G at 
one and only one spot.  Check sub panels too.  My record was seven N-G 
bonds on one site.  It caused the shower to be energized; the customer 
thought that was normal(don't touch the shower head!?!).That 
site even had a N-G bond in the well pump wiring!  Took 3 days of 
unF***ing that wiring to finally get it.


It ain't safe, until it's right.  The GFCI is doing its job, and so is 
the Magnum.  Now the electrician has to do his job. Unless you wired 
the whole house, you're On to fix it. Especially off grid, I see an 
amazing bunch of DIY garbage. Find out who did the original wiring.  
Probably not a pro.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar

On 12/16/2022 11:35 AM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches wrote:
You may have neutral and ground connected at more than 1 location, 
meaning at the genset and in house panel, which means the ground is 
carrying current back to the generator in parallel with the neutral.


I remember with some Honda portables we had to float the neutral at 
the genset or the inverter would trip the generator's GFI when trying 
to charge the batteries.


On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 1:16 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via 
RE-wrenches  wrote:


The easy answer is try another genset ! You have to be more
specific, did it ever work? Is it new? etc. Good Luck !

*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060*

On 2022-12-16 10:04 am, Chris Daum via RE-wrenches wrote:


Hi folks:

We have a new Magnum MS4024 mounted on an E-Panel using a
MidNite Classic 150 and Whiz-Bang JR with power coming from an
array of Trina TSM365-De06X-05(II) (three strings of three) with
the ME-RC50 and a HUP SolarOne 6-85-14/24 battery.
When we attempt to use the PFC (Power Factored Charger), the Gen
Set’s GFCI outlets trip.  Thus far we have verified the
connections are secure, assured that the gen set is grounded,
disconnected the jumper within the E-Panel between the ground
buss and neutral, checked AC voltages, removed the MNSPD’s from
the buss(s)…  Stumped now on what an appropriate next step
should be.  How do we get the PFC to fun

Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4024 grief

[Roy Butler via RE-wrenches]

My bet is on a neutral to ground bond inside the generator!

Roy Butler
Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC
8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807
607-324-9747www.four-winds-energy.com

Education is when you read the fine print; experience is what you get when you 
don’t.

“The less people know, the more stubbornly they know it.”

Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message,
a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.




On 12/16/2022 1:35 PM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches wrote:
You may have neutral and ground connected at more than 1 location, 
meaning at the genset and in house panel, which means the ground is 
carrying current back to the generator in parallel with the neutral.


I remember with some Honda portables we had to float the neutral at 
the genset or the inverter would trip the generator's GFI when trying 
to charge the batteries.


On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 1:16 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via 
RE-wrenches  wrote:


The easy answer is try another genset ! You have to be more
specific, did it ever work? Is it new? etc. Good Luck !

*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060*


On 2022-12-16 10:04 am, Chris Daum via RE-wrenches wrote:


Hi folks:

We have a new Magnum MS4024 mounted on an E-Panel using a MidNite
Classic 150 and Whiz-Bang JR with power coming from an array of
Trina TSM365-De06X-05(II) (three strings of three) with the
ME-RC50 and a HUP SolarOne 6-85-14/24 battery.
When we attempt to use the PFC (Power Factored Charger), the Gen
Set’s GFCI outlets trip.  Thus far we have verified the
connections are secure, assured that the gen set is grounded,
disconnected the jumper within the E-Panel between the ground
buss and neutral, checked AC voltages, removed the MNSPD’s from
the buss(s)…  Stumped now on what an appropriate next step should
be.  How do we get the PFC to function properly?  What are we
missing?

Best,

Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309 or 4321
406-777-4309 fax
www.oasismontana.com 








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--

*Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar*

*Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*

*/Celebrating our 31^st  Anniversary 1991-2022!!/*

*www.vermont.solar* 



dba Vermont Solar Engineering

802.863.1202


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4024 grief

[Ray Walters via RE-wrenches]

Undoing the N-G bond at the E panel may not do it either.  Are you sure 
neutral isn't also bonded in the main distribution panel?  It usually is 
bonded at the generator, so you definitely have to unbond there.  I'd 
say 60 to 70% of off grid systems are not bonded correctly that I've 
seen.  Just what Kirk said: it should only be bonded N-G at one and only 
one spot.  Check sub panels too.  My record was seven N-G bonds on one 
site.  It caused the shower to be energized; the customer thought that 
was normal(don't touch the shower head!?!).That site even had a 
N-G bond in the well pump wiring!  Took 3 days of unF***ing that wiring 
to finally get it.


It ain't safe, until it's right.  The GFCI is doing its job, and so is 
the Magnum.  Now the electrician has to do his job.  Unless you wired 
the whole house, you're On to fix it.  Especially off grid, I see an 
amazing bunch of DIY garbage.  Find out who did the original wiring.  
Probably not a pro.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar

On 12/16/2022 11:35 AM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches wrote:
You may have neutral and ground connected at more than 1 location, 
meaning at the genset and in house panel, which means the ground is 
carrying current back to the generator in parallel with the neutral.


I remember with some Honda portables we had to float the neutral at 
the genset or the inverter would trip the generator's GFI when trying 
to charge the batteries.


On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 1:16 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via 
RE-wrenches  wrote:


The easy answer is try another genset ! You have to be more
specific, did it ever work? Is it new? etc. Good Luck !

*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060*


On 2022-12-16 10:04 am, Chris Daum via RE-wrenches wrote:


Hi folks:

We have a new Magnum MS4024 mounted on an E-Panel using a MidNite
Classic 150 and Whiz-Bang JR with power coming from an array of
Trina TSM365-De06X-05(II) (three strings of three) with the
ME-RC50 and a HUP SolarOne 6-85-14/24 battery.
When we attempt to use the PFC (Power Factored Charger), the Gen
Set’s GFCI outlets trip.  Thus far we have verified the
connections are secure, assured that the gen set is grounded,
disconnected the jumper within the E-Panel between the ground
buss and neutral, checked AC voltages, removed the MNSPD’s from
the buss(s)…  Stumped now on what an appropriate next step should
be.  How do we get the PFC to function properly?  What are we
missing?

Best,

Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309 or 4321
406-777-4309 fax
www.oasismontana.com 








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--

*Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar*

*Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*

*/Celebrating our 31^st  Anniversary 1991-2022!!/*

*www.vermont.solar* 



dba Vermont Solar Engineering

802.863.1202


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4024 grief

[Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches]

You may have neutral and ground connected at more than 1 location, meaning
at the genset and in house panel, which means the ground is carrying
current back to the generator in parallel with the neutral.

I remember with some Honda portables we had to float the neutral at the
genset or the inverter would trip the generator's GFI when trying to charge
the batteries.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 1:16 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches
 wrote:

> The easy answer is try another genset !  You have to be more specific, did it 
> ever work? Is it new? etc.  Good Luck !
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
>
> On 2022-12-16 10:04 am, Chris Daum via RE-wrenches wrote:
>
> Hi folks:
>
> We have a new Magnum MS4024 mounted on an E-Panel using a MidNite Classic
> 150 and Whiz-Bang JR with power coming from an array of Trina
> TSM365-De06X-05(II) (three strings of three) with the ME-RC50 and a HUP
> SolarOne 6-85-14/24 battery.
> When we attempt to use the PFC (Power Factored Charger), the Gen Set’s
> GFCI outlets trip.  Thus far we have verified the connections are secure,
> assured that the gen set is grounded, disconnected the jumper within the
> E-Panel between the ground buss and neutral, checked AC voltages, removed
> the MNSPD’s from the buss(s)…  Stumped now on what an appropriate next step
> should be.  How do we get the PFC to function properly?  What are we
> missing?
>
> Best,
>
> Chris Daum
> Oasis Montana Inc.
> 406-777-4309 or 4321
> 406-777-4309 fax
> www.oasismontana.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>
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>
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*Kirk Herander / **kirkh@vermont.solar *

*Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC*

*Celebrating our 31st Anniversary 1991-2022!!*

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dba Vermont Solar Engineering

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4024 grief

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches]

The easy answer is try another genset !  You have to be more specific, 
did it ever work? Is it new? etc.  Good Luck !


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On 2022-12-16 10:04 am, Chris Daum via RE-wrenches wrote:


Hi folks:

We have a new Magnum MS4024 mounted on an E-Panel using a MidNite 
Classic 150 and Whiz-Bang JR with power coming from an array of Trina 
TSM365-De06X-05(II) (three strings of three) with the ME-RC50 and a HUP 
SolarOne 6-85-14/24 battery.
When we attempt to use the PFC (Power Factored Charger), the Gen Set's 
GFCI outlets trip.  Thus far we have verified the connections are 
secure, assured that the gen set is grounded, disconnected the jumper 
within the E-Panel between the ground buss and neutral, checked AC 
voltages, removed the MNSPD's from the buss(s)…  Stumped now on what an 
appropriate next step should be.  How do we get the PFC to function 
properly?  What are we missing?


Best,

Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309 or 4321
406-777-4309 fax
www.oasismontana.com [1]

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Links:
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[1] http://www.oasismontana.com___
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[RE-wrenches] Magnum MS4024 grief

[Chris Daum via RE-wrenches]

Hi folks:

We have a new Magnum MS4024 mounted on an E-Panel using a MidNite Classic 150 
and Whiz-Bang JR with power coming from an array of Trina TSM365-De06X-05(II) 
(three strings of three) with the ME-RC50 and a HUP SolarOne 6-85-14/24 battery.
When we attempt to use the PFC (Power Factored Charger), the Gen Set’s GFCI 
outlets trip.  Thus far we have verified the connections are secure, assured 
that the gen set is grounded, disconnected the jumper within the E-Panel 
between the ground buss and neutral, checked AC voltages, removed the MNSPD’s 
from the buss(s)…  Stumped now on what an appropriate next step should be.  How 
do we get the PFC to function properly?  What are we missing?

Best,

Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309 or 4321
406-777-4309 fax
www.oasismontana.com 








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